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Selling Homeowners a Solar Dream
slugo writes to mention a Wired article discussing a unique business looking to capitalize on interest in solar power. The
Citizenr company will install a solar generator on your roof, completely for free. You then buy power from it, instead of a regular power company, at a fixed rate that's likely to be lower than the usual power fees. The company will make money on these usage fees, as well as credits from the federal government for spreading the use of solar power. If it sounds too good to be true to you, you're not alone. A number of financial analysts have warned people away from the company. "The naysayers are finding lots to say nay to. Much of the criticism is clinging to the company's multilevel marketing scheme. So far, more than 700 people have enlisted as independent Citizenr sales agents -- what the company calls 'ecopenuers' -- or about one sales representative for every 10 customers, with significant overlap. Heading that sales army is 42-year-old Styler, a veteran of multilevel marketing and a colorful figure in his own right." Pyramid marketing and shady business or not, it's an intriguing idea.
The alley cats will lose money. Same thing in any pyramid scheme.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I think the politically correct term in Multi-Level Management. The term Pyramid Scheme might offend someone. :P
On a more serious note, I thought the best way to get more money out of a customer than the advertised price of the product was to put it on a lease with an interest rate.
The company will make money on these usage fees, as well as credits from the federal government for spreading the use of solar power.
So then who gets the income tax credit for the installation of the solar equipment on your property? You? or them?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I believe you/they mean ecopRenuers.
Ecopeneurs are tree-hugging nether appendages.
Thanks for the visual.
"So far, more than 700 people have enlisted as independent Citizenr sales agents -- what the company calls 'ecopenuers' "
The boldface buzzword is a warning sign: stay away, stay very far away.
Sounds like a scam, but I've thought that you could make money doing something similar with solar hot water systems. The payback on solar hot water is fairly respectable.
I would love solar (or some other alternative) energy for my house. Love it. But it's just too expensive.
That said, this is kind of nuts. They're using my roof space, selling power back to the energy companies and I still have to pay them?
Now, set this up so I pay them a flat-rate for a few years (even a rather long time, like 7 years) and I would absolutely consider it.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
Assuming this isn't a ponzi scheme, what would happen to this company if it was incredibly overcast for 6 months? It's not impossible. For example, Helensburgh, Scotland only sees about 5 or 6 clear days a year. Obviously, you wouldn't install these in Scotland, but something of that nature could happen anywhere, especially with the way the weather has been becoming more extreme as of late.
Also, let's say it's cloudy for a week or two, and the customer runs out of electricity. They'll have to pull energy off the grid, and incur a bill. Who pays that bill, the company or the homeowner? There are just too many holes in this scheme.
Aero
Please stop hurting America -- Jon Stewart
But, this is not completely free. There is a $500 deposit once you approve the design of the system.
s -selling-solar.html.
One thing that confuses people about how this works is the idea of net metering. The system is designed to meet 100% of you power use over a year. It is not designed to meet you peak power use. Under net metering you build up kWh credits when the Sun shines and you are not using all of the power, and you use those credits at night or on cloudy days. The key thing is that the credits last for a year so the seasonal differences in power production and power usage can match up annually. There is good information on net metering laws at http://www.dsireusa.org/.
At least three shashdot users are selling rental contracts for this company and if there are more please let me know so I can add them to this list http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Please remember that this is a startup and it is going to take time to get going. No money will be collected until the panels are ready for installation!
The plan is entirely feasible.
If you start up a solar power "plant" you have to pay for the land, and you end up selling the power to the grid at wholesale prices.
With this, you get the land (roof tops) for free, and you can probably sell a good portion of the power at nearly retail prices directly to the home-owner, rather than the much lower wholesale price.
Whether there is scamming going on or not is a completely separate issue... It's certainly possible this company could be a scam to get at that some of that state and federal subsidy cash, but it's just as possible that it's not. And frankly, if I'm not a stock-holder, and am just buying a service from them, why do I care much if it does turn out to be some type of scam? At worst, you save some money in the short term, and have to give it up after a while... At best, maybe they go under, you'll be lucky enough to get a solar panel installed on your roof, free and clear (no more monthly fees).
It's not like solar power companies have a monopoly on scams...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Just like slashdot subscriptions
...they repo your whole roof.
What happens if the company goes belly up, do I get to keep the generator, does uncle sam come & rip the thing off my roof, do I get the option to purchase it ?
Are they going to inspect roofs before installing theese things ?
"Multilevel marketing" ? Does that mean 3rd party contractors will be doing the install, who do I go to if my roof starts to leak after the install ?
If there's bad weather enough for me to have to use traditional grid power occasionally, do they cover the difference since their service failed ?
What happens if I decide to get my roof replaced while this thing is up there ?
How much of my roof will this thing require, will having a pool heating unit up there already be a problem ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Home Solar Power Equipment Reposession Agency - for when a customer defaults on their payments. Though it'll probably be a bit hard to unwire an AC inverter from a main circuit breaker with a screaming shotgun-wielding homeowner next to you. There'll be a reality TV show about this in 2020.
The plan is not feasible, with or without the multi-level scheme.
Solar installations of house-size with a net-metering grid hookup are not cost-competitive with grid power, even with government subsidies and without paying for the space under them. Otherwise people would be able to save money by doing this themselves, without the middleman and his pyramid scheme.
The difference currently is a factor of several - too large for even an exceedingly efficient company's economy of scale to overcome. It's dropping. But it's still far from crossover. (When it DOES cross over there will be efficient companies building customer-owned installations that homeowners finance with the mortgage, as part of their houses.)
This is a ponzi scheme.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Spellbound: My Journey Through A Tangled Web of Success
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
you also sell them retirement property in Arkansas? Florida seems to have run out of swampland so it's luxury living in Arkansas or your own private paradise in the Arizona desert. Just 30 minutes from the nearest water and power. At least with this skeme they'd have power.
We could do way better than this Citizenr guy... Let's make second-rate knives, then lie to salespeople and consumers who will pay far too much money for them!
Woah, deja vu
Oohhhh, S-T-Yler - everybody's safe then.
Shady business in solar power? I see warning flags popping up all over the place!
I don't understand the skepticism. The company is willing to install a power generator on your roof free of charge. Even if the company goes under, it wouldn't make sense for the new owners to remove the panels as long as they have a revenue stream coming from them as is.
As far as I can tell, the only way you could possibly get screwed is if the market price of electricity on the public grid falls below the rate to which you agree for private provision. But if the market price rises, you get an even better deal. People are rational and will evaluate signing one of these contracts based on what they are paying for electricity now and expect to be paying in the future.
Who cares about the company's marketing method? What matters is whether they can make the business model work. This is a fantastic idea environmentally and it seems to be good for the consumer too. The details are all going to be in the contracts between homeowners and the company, not the company and its sales force.
It's because the people in the Renewable Energy business are hopeless. Seriously. Try getting replies from RE businesses. They don't respond to e-mail or voice messages. When you finally get one on the telephone they give nothing but excuses why they can't help you.
You'll have to do what many of us have done, which is source your own hardware, such as PV panels, regulators, batteries/cells, etc. (Not easy: the manufacturers refuse to deal with end-users, and the "official distributors" apparently refuse to deal with anybody!)
The do the install, configuration, and maintanence (questions on message boards either go unanswered, or you'll be trolled and flamed for being a n00b....kind of like being on Slashdot, really.)
Most likely this will get modded 'Flamebait' or 'Troll', not much I can do about that, but I still believe the RE industry is its own worst enemy.
The $3-4 cost per peak watt with present panels is driven now by scarcity of solar grade silicon and smaller scale less efficient production. The company expect a cost near $1.53 per peak watt and an energy return on energy in in about one year. This comes from scale and producing their own silicon. You can see that this is pretty much on the trend identified here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/m oney/2007/02/19/ccview19.xml.
I sure didnt know I have a company.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
"mdsolar" is a shill for an obvious Ponzi scheme.
Would you like to talk about a business opportunity?
And because Slashdot users are involved means a lot. I mean, look at the quality of the first posts on any thread . . .
...but I'm not interested in scammers.
GIYF, http://www.google.com/search?q=grid+tie+inverter
A grid tie inverter needs a couple of other components in order to build a complete system.
If you want to buy a bundled system, take a look at something like the Outback PS1.
You can download the manuals and wiring diagrams from the Outback web site.
There are many vendors to choose from. Some of them have good on line forums,
http://forums.sma-america.com/
http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/
Unless this company has some patent or something, nothing will stop a more traditional company from entering this market, if it is an attractive investment.
Ditto non-profits and cooperatives doing the same. With the tax-advantaged status if a non-profit and the lack of a need for a positive rate of return, I expect to see local eco-nonprofits start doing things like this even if it's not a good commercial investment.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
This is now a hot topic and you'll find a couple of detailed threads about CitizenRe at my blog. Executives of the company have been participating there and trying to give some (not too satisfactory) answers to critics.
- challenge
You may wish to check out the original thread at:
http://ideas.4brad.com/node/504
And then the followup thread with my summary of what was learned at:
http://ideas.4brad.com/citizenre-real-or-imagined
Normal solar is not yet close to economical. That's why everybody is skeptical about CitizenRe's as yet unfulfilled promise to deliver economical solar. The combination of secrecy, multi-level-marketing and astounding claims has many people feeling it sounds too good to be true.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
It's funny to me how negative even the nerds are--this is the last place I would have thought I'd see this attitude, but as always, the techies fear the sales guys (OOOOOhhhhhhh--MLM!). I mean for crying out loud--an 18-month-old website just sold for almost $2 BILLION dollars, and although looking at stupid videos might be a good way to pass the time at the office for folks stuck in front of their computer all day, it ain't gonna change the world. I think Citizenre will (full disclosure - I signed up to be an associate - http://www.qcimarketing.com/, and I think the naysayers will be put in their place in the next month or so when the press release comes out. You'll have your questions answered then. I don't know if any of you people remember a little thing called the "Dotcom Era"? Anyone? If you're a tech person and you were working then, you remember the incredible level of secrecy around even the most duplicated business plans, and nobody would even dare to think about "opening the kimono" about their plans to anyone--even investors--without an iron-clad NDA. Why would you expect Citizenre to? With such an incredibly disruptive business model to today's energy industry--especially the traditional solar guys (who CANNOT compete with our model--EVER), and with many big-caps with big pockets who can see themselves making a few bucks in this $296 Billion market by simply copying us, I hope you people have the requisite 2c to rub together when it comes to just plain old business common sense. We may have announced $650 million in funding, but let's be honest here--there's a LOT more where that came from. Timing is everything here. I'm a NASD licensed former floor-trader (private fund--not a stockbroker), start-up business consultant, and C-Level Sales Shark, and I "get" the numbers, and they work. In fact, you can take a look at a PhD'd Independent Investment Advisor's analysis of our plan (I'm in CO like he is, but I've never met him, FYI) here: http://tomkonrad.wordpress.com/2006/12/13/102/ - if you see any flaws in that analysis, let me know! That's my 2c. PJ
Sorry to be rude, but you really need to be more accurate in your math if you're going to opine on this. First of all, it's not nearly so small a fraction wholesale. Typical costs installed are about $8/watt, which covers quite a bit more than the panels, which cost about $4/watt wholesale.
However, just take your $10,000 system. Now in reality that only will provide you with about $50 of electricity per month at $4/watt (2500 watts) but even if it did provide you with $150, you have forgotten what every mortgage holder knows -- that money today is worth far more than money (or electricity) in the future.
So $10,000 at 7% interest in fact takes 85 months, not 67 months to pay off at $150/month saving. This doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's because your price numbers are off. At the real price of solar, a $10K system provides, as noted, only $50 worth of power, and you can never, ever, in any number of months, pay off $10,000 at $50 per month because the interest per month is more than $50. So the math error becomes a difference between a real payoff rate and infinity.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
California has a major share of the solar market due to strong incentives. For each rebate, the state lists the system size, seller, and cost. There were about 15K installs in the last two years. Of the over 600 sellers listed, many are "green driven" types with few installations and not much business motivation. Below is the full list of 39 sellers that have over 100 installations. They are much more likely to return calls.
w ables/COMPLETED_SYSTEMS.XLS
PowerLight Corp. (798 installs)
Renewable Energy Concepts, Inc. (712 installs)
GE Energy USA, LLC (473 installs)
Gaiam Energy Tech dba Real Goods (449 installs)
SPG Solar, Inc. (447 installs)
Carlson Solar Inc. (334 installs)
Regrid Power, Inc (320 installs)
Akeena Solar, Inc. (311 installs)
Premier Power Renewable Energy Inc. (278 installs)
Unlimited Energy (274 installs)
Sun Light & Power Co. (233 installs)
Sharpe Solar Energy Systems, Inc. (219 installs)
GenSelf Corporation (218 installs)
Mohr Power Solar, Inc. (213 installs)
Southern California Solar Inc. (202 installs)
Helio Power (198 installs)
Advanced Solar Electric (192 installs)
Cooperative Community Energy Corp. (190 installs)
Altair Energy, Inc. (188 installs)
Borrego Solar Systems, Inc (183 installs)
Next Energy Corp (181 installs)
Borrego Solar Systems Inc. (174 installs)
M C Solar Engineering (171 installs)
Marin Solar, Inc. (170 installs)
Sierra Pacific Home and Comfort (166 installs)
Sharp Electronics Corp. (160 installs)
Energy Efficiency Solar, Inc. (156 installs)
Clean Power Systems, Inc (150 installs)
Solahart All Valley (144 installs)
Power Independence Electric (thru Home Depot) (137 installs)
Sun First Solar (129 installs)
Plan It Solar (126 installs)
Revco Solar Engineering, Inc (123 installs)
New Vision Technologies, Inc. (123 installs)
Solatron Technologies, Inc. (122 installs)
Solar Technologies (118 installs)
Solar Works (118 installs)
Independent Energy Systems, Inc. (106 installs)
TMAG Inc dba Stellar Solar (Home Depot) (102 installs)
Source data from http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/emerging_rene
See how far you get before you give up in despair and disgust.
But it's still just a scam.
From wikipedia: "A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered."
In this case, the money exchange isn't primarily for enrolling other people -- and there is an actual product/service being delivered: energy. It may be a scam, but it's not, strictly speaking, a pyramid scheme.
It's also not a Ponzi scheme, which "involves paying abnormally high returns ("profits") to investors out of the money paid in by subsequent investors". They're offering a service, not paying "abnormally high returns".
This *could* be called MLM -- which you are understandably suspicious of: "Multi-level marketing has a recognized image problem due to the fact that it is often difficult to distinguish legitimate MLMs from illegal scams such as pyramid or Ponzi schemes".
In a legit MLM system, the majority will not make as much money as the founders (the Amway president will always make more than people who simply bought Amway products -- duh), but that doesn't mean that people down the tree will *lose* money. They exchange money for a service; the fact that it was sold to them by another customer is irrelevant.
So, if I get a grid of solar panels on my roof and I do actually start saving money on my electricity. What do I get out of the deal when my neigbors start signing up listing me as their referal?
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
Can we have a tag: usaonly?
Get your own free personal location tracker
There's a better way to go solar than to enslave yourself to some fly-by-night company for the rest of your life. It's called a loan. Here's how it works.
You go to the bank, get a loan, use the loan money to install your very own solar panel system, and use the money you save on electric bills to pay back the loan. Later, once you've paid off the loan, you get to keep the money that you aren't spending on those electric bills instead of continuing to pay a permanent rental fee to some company. And if you generate more power than you use, you can actually sell it to make more money.
Works great for retirement, and if you decide to sell the house instead, you can mark it up because of the solar panels, allowing you to install solar panels at your next house as well, perhaps without needing a loan.
I don't know if any of you people remember a little thing called the "Dotcom Era"?
yea isnt that when all the vc's got ripped off when companies pissed through money like it was free beer ?
Some good discussions are here here and here. This sounds like a great idea, I'm all for it. But, the collective 'naysayers' have a lot of really good points, and several misconceptions. The misconceptions are quickly and vociferously explained. The numerous good points, however, are usually met with changing of the subject. The best of those points are:
Q: Who is financing the $650mil? Where is the manufacturing plant?:
A: 'We'll release that info in the next few days... er, next couple weeks....er, end of January...er, 1st ½ of February...er, end of February':
People in the solar manufacturing business know when any new plant is being built. Somebody, somewhere, will leak that info to the blogosphere. It takes many months of planning, then 6 months to years to build the plant, then another 6 months to years to get the equipment going, and the first product they produce never actually works - it takes at least another few months to a year to get even 20% working. But for the biggest solar plant ever built, not a word? Hundreds of workers at every step of the process, but nobody leaks any info? In January, they said 20% capability by Sept. 07.:
:
Q: How much will it cost per kWh?:
A: $1.53. This was mentioned on a conference call end of January, but it wasn't printed anywhere on any advertisements, or even the internal website, including the knowledge base. I've been looking, and didn't see it anywhere, ever, until mdsolar wrote it today. Why not? For a piece of info that the 'naysayers' have been screaming for, why not reply to them?:
:
Q: Solar power cheaper than coal is the 'holy grail' the industry has been searching for relentlessly. Citizenre claims not just to have broken that barrier, but smashed completely through it, like skipping 5 years of Moore's Law in 1 year. 'Vertical Integration', while very buzzy, doesn't explain that. If you could do it, people would hear about it, and sign up. You dont need the risks, bad name, and expense of MLM - you'd max out your capacity by putting a website up.
A: Long answers that dont add up usually follow, but sometimes, "Forget the numbers, you have to just believe. I believe in a green future, dont you?"
:
My conclusion is that there is definitely some scheming going on. I just hope its of the Bill Gates variety, like when he licensed 'his' OS to IBM before he owned it (at least that's what I remember from Pirates of Silicon Valley). I believe there is no manufacturing plant or $650 mil, but the Citizenre guys hope to drum up enough hype that they can go to potential investors and say - look, we've presigned 10k customers - give us the startup capital, and we'll chia-grow a business. Every year they delay roll out, the silicon and technology gets cheaper, so they're in a win-win situation, going from investor to investor, every month the numbers get a little better. All the while the hype drives Rob Styler's book sales.:
:
The darker possibility in my mind is that they're after the security deposit, which is size dependent. If your system requirements are bigger, you pay more than the $500. The average size people are signing up has been said (without refutation) to be close to $1300. If they could actually convince people to pay the deposit without getting the systems, then they would make 10k customers X $1300 = $13mil. Oh, they are upfront paying the sales associates 10% of the $500 potential commissions, so they would only make $12.5mil. Split that between 5 core people, $2.5mil is not bad for a couple years work. If it were me, I'd sacrifice my good name for $2.5mil and travel the world on a yacht under a false name. Maybe I'd write a book about it - hope it gets turned into a movie.:
:
All this said, you don't seem to lose anything to just sign up on the w
I came to know about Citizenre through bestcashawards.com . BCA is a MLM scheme where you earn for attending marketing conferences if you manage to make 7 levels under you. Thereafter you get paid per person under you for each conference. I was initially quite interested in how they can help me make money but gave up after a few days in their internet conference. Citizenre was the first company giving a seminar under bestcashrewards. The sales guy offered me $5 for each customer I manage to get signed up with them. But when I asked him how would he track if the customer has been referred by me, he didn't have any idea; asked me to help him make a tracking software. I like the idea of harnessing Solar power, but not sure if citizenre can deliver. They count each person who fills up a form as a customer. Most of them attend the conference to make money and are hardly interested in buying anything. I think the 7000 count is just the people who have filled the form, not the real customers.
The way I've costed out a system, I don't think I could make that kind of profit if I included the batteries. My estimate has me breaking even with 3% credit, no inflation or incentives and no batteries. Considering how bad I am at turning in rebates on electronics, I'd have to be very disciplined to make something of the renewable energy credits.
To me, the question boils down to how do I get off fossil fuels sooner. If I'm not borrowing for solar, that frees up credit for geothermal and a plugin hybrid. The latter may address the battery issue while serving a different primary purpose.
Because the systems are monitored for billing, this is a wrinkle that is not off-the-shelf. Thus there will be some beta systems to help debug the billing code before regular installs get going. But, if you want fully mass produced stuff, you'll need to wait for mass production.
Its no surprise that they want to give you the equiptment, and charge you a subscription, rather than sell you the equiptment.
If you owned the equiptment you dont need the power companies really, and you can infact sell your energy to the power grid so...
yeah... dont fall for this scam. Buy the hardware, and the energy is free. The real truth is... the sun's energy is free for all.
So let me get this right, they install something for you that is solar powered and generates power for you. They install it for free, but that catch is that you end up paying them forever for every bit of power that you use? How is that better than installing your own Solar array on your roof or property and generating your own power and using it...... for free!!! They say that your own installed Solar power system pays for itself within several years. Personally, that sounds GREAT to me and much better than being tied to paying somone for the rest of my life for power.
:-)
Also, as everyone says, Amway type pyramid schemes STINK!!! and are absolutely no good. Nice try though, some of us actually know how to think things through.
They are offering fixed rate contracts as long as 25 years.....I don't think we're necessariy dealing with a bold-faced scam here. More likely, we are dealing with a potentially over-ambitious business model. I'm looking into it right now and my first question is, "where are they getting the money from?"
Right now, it appears that all you are on the hook for is a $500.00 deposit. You would lose that if they went bankrupt I suppose.
I'd love to see it work....but I don't yet understand where the profit is coming from.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I think the naysayers will be put in their place in the next month or so when the press release comes out
Excellent, I'm trying to look at these guys with an open mind....I look forward to thier press release.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I keep seeing comments about "government subsidies" here. THERE ARE NO GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES - only taxpayer subsidies! I hope all you taxpayers are happy subsidizing this and all the other solar wet-dream schemes!
I think the 7000 count is just the people who have filled the form, not the real customers.
Well you need a real product to have real customers now, don't you? This sounds like the company is simply fishing for market research. Right now the only product that's being produced or paid for is their "customers" information.
If solar roof panels are ever a sure thing, we'll know about it because the power companies will be offering to lease the space on our roofs and pay for it.
In summary, they are selling new townhomes with solar panels attached to the top. However, you don't own the solar panels for the default listing price; because there are much better economic incentives to commercial use of solar, you purchase the townhome and then buy back the solar from the commercial entity that was setup to own the panels. It is believed that this is more cost effective, although they do give you the option to purchase the panels on top of your home when you purchase the home.
It's not clear to me who maintains the panels, or the roof under them, however. Presumably the solar commercial entity, although I'd want that detailed. If I develop a hole in my roof, and I need to do some work up there, what happens to the solar panels that are in the way?
IIRC, after some 20 years the home owner then can purchase the solar panels at a much reduced rate.
--
$tar -xvf
There is an interesting discussion at an alternative energy site:
http://forums.altenergystore.com/Renewable-EnergyDefinitely appears to be alot of skepticism.
In my research on this company, I decided to sign up my own home, those of relatives, and offer the panels to other folks as well as an "Ecoprenuer". If the company fails, I'm out exactly $0. If it succeeds, as I believe it will, there are many people who will wish they had done more research early on. -Greg Solar: Join The Future Now!
Greg Clark
Solar: Join The Future Now!
If you go off grid, and don't use 100% of the power you generate, you are not being very green at all. Not even counting the problem of disposal of batteries. On-grid has minor costs but every watt hour is used.
If you want backup power with your grid-tie system, of course you have that during the day. Non-green as it seems, the greenest choice is actually a generator for your night usage, because in reality you are hardly ever going to run it.
If you're off grid the right approach is to underprovision the solar so you are using 100% of it, have a modest battery bank, and then use a clean generator for the rest. No wasted generation. Possibly throw in some wind, but again, unless you have a 100% efficient place to store any excess, you are throwing away power. Batteries have a problem in that they only have so many deep cycles in them. So if you design to discharge them every night they won't last long and that has its own problems.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
You misunderstand -- this is why CitizenRe insists on net metering. The extra power does not get wasted, it gets sold back to the grid. Then you buy power back at night. The only issue is if you overprovision and actually sell back more power in a whole year than you buy back, so you make sure to slightly underprovision.
CitizenRe may or may not be a scam, but this part isn't the problem.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
To sell that thing on the roof? I mean, it's my roof, it's on my property, I'm the one that's making the power electricity, after all the company will sell a lot of this solar panels a lot of time!
ghostbar page.
"Buy the hardware, and the energy is free."
Except for the first half of your statement. Your "free" energy requires hardware up front in the form of a large investment that will not benefit the homeowner as much or as fast (financially) as it will benefit a commercial entity like The Citizenre Corporation.
But hey, if you have a spare $50,000 lying around, go for it! You'll be doing everyone a favor (unless you include your wallet).
PJ
http://www.qcimarketing.com/
You can read the division of liability in the contract which is available through any of the links at http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html. Basically, if the system causes
damage then the company is responsible. If the system is damaged then the home owner is responsible. If the
home owner's insurance won't cover this there will be an option to get additional insurance. We're getting
a variety of responses from insurance companies on what they will cover. Mine in Maryland says it covers only
fire, explosion and theft while the same company in Illinois covers everything but flood and nuclear incident.
More work is needed on this issue.
Return on Investment for solar panels that generate electricity is about 5 years and that's WITH state rebates and federal and subsidies. After that it's gravy but panels only last around 25 to 30 years. According their website, they are building a plant that will produce enough panels for up to 100,000 customers per year. That's IF they are actually building something, somewhere - details on their website are pretty murky about this subject. From what I understand, it costs a fortune to build a factory that can make that many panels per year.. (If anyone knows an approx. number please reply w/ info) I guess they COULD just buy them from China, where most panels come from, and assemble them in Cali or elsewhere in USA and thus have the right to label them "made-in-USA" :)
Citizenre's burn rate for the first year would be $2,000,000,000 (2bn) for 100,000 customers PLUS cost of plant, employees, marketing and other expenses. Where are they going to get this kind of cash??? Ah, that's where YOU come in
For a bag full of money, you can help them spread the burden of that $2billion+ burn. If things don't work out, you'll get your empty bag back.
If they continued to install panels for free @ 100k units per year, they would ALWAYS lose money - even after year 5, the first batch of customers would only net them 360million AND that's assuming their customers would pay $300 per month to them directly to heat and cool their house. (In USA most houses are gas and oil heated, so this number would be a lot lower. If they sold excess power to local utilities, this number would be a lot lower as well)
So the finances make no sense - if you are going to spend $2bn, you may as well build a solar, nuclear, etc. power plant, somewhere in Arizona or even California where there's a lot of sun all year long. Then sell power to utilities since they already have steady customers AND excellent infrastructure to deliver their and your "product".
If Citizenre's customers stop using (and paying for) the electricity from these panels, or even worse, rewire and steal power, what's Citizenre going to do? Spend money and have someone come and remove these panels? That wouldn't be cheap plus you would have to cover repairs to the roof since most solar installs are permanent and require solar panels to be screwed into the roof or south-facing wall.
About five years there was a company that charged next to nothing for Internet terminal "PC"s that customers could purchase in major electronics stores (with cash) and take them home (without any kind of commitment!) This company was supposed to make money by charging customers for Internet access since device was dumbed-down to do just that. Well, to make this long story short, many dishonest customers purchased the device but did not activate and sign-up for Internet access. They hacked the box and put Linux on it. Back then LCD monitors were expensive and this box came with one as a all-in-one unit. The point is that once they hand over the goods, there is not much Citizenre can do. (customers can put a tarp over it to speed up that burn rate:)
I spent about 15 mins reading reading their website and was not impressed with CEO's credentials (sounds like some web marketing guy who jumped from company to company) and was alarmed by their "Senior Vice-President of Direct-Sales"
this Sr. VP was directly involved with one of the biggest scams in the 1990s in "direct-marketing" when he was at Equinox. not only was he scamming, he even had the balls to write a book about it. (maybe finally woke-up and didn't want to be arrested like Enron's senior management) Below is Julian Wise's review of Rob Styler's book that I copied from Amazon.com:
'This book is an absolutely fascinating read for anyone who came into contact with Equinox International, the Multi-Level Marketing company that flared across America in the early 1990s and lured thousands of Americans into handing over their money, time, and, most often, their self-respect in pursuit of quick fortunes. Equinox,
I'd tend to agree, we throw away solar power on every square meter of Earth where there is not a solar panel anyway. Not really since the plants like it and that is a very good thing for us. But, discarded solar power is not wasted power in the same way that discarded fossil power is wasted. You didn't have to do anything to get it in the first place and it was coming anyway. You could argue that you are using more than your share of solar panels, but that is a little like saying that a tree is using more than its share of leaves.
On the grid, you don't want to over produce because of the financial penalty unless you get a deal like the one at http://www.ncgreenpower.org/. But that will change as solar becomes cheaper than wholesale electricity.
From the article:
More recently, he's been involved in another multilevel marketing operation that sells skin patches promising the wearer improved health and vigor through the magic of nanotechnology.
That's all that needs to be said about this. Rob Styler is a professional con artist and fraudster and he is the main force behind this scam. The claims of this company are beyond ludicrous, like developing a solar system 100's of times as efficient as existing systems). Their funding is also secret (read: organized crime).
Anyone who gets involved with this is a fool.
Yes, you certainly are paranoid. You raise a lot of questions, and I will answer them here:
:)
Citizenre's burn rate for the first year would be $2,000,000,000 (2bn) for 100,000 customers PLUS cost of plant, employees, marketing and other expenses. Where are they going to get this kind of cash??? Ah, that's where YOU come in
Please don't lie about Citizenre, because when you do, any further post you make will not be credible. Citizenre asks for no money from anyone--customers or associates. You need to explain where you get these numbers, but it really doesn't matter because your premise is flawed. So tell me again about raising money. As a licensed securities professional, I can tell you that it's illegal to go around and ask the public to invest in your company, and to my knowledge, this is not happening, so you are just plain wrong here. Show me I'm not.
So the finances make no sense...
You have obviously not done any homework here, because the finances make such absolute sense, that people that "get it" are scratching our heads why this hasn't happened already. Click the link at the end of my original post and educate yourself.
Re: Rob Styler
You, sir, need to read more about this gentleman before you attempt to sully a good man's name in a public forum such as this. If you did your homework, you would find that Mr. Styler walked away from a substantial residual income stream he spent many years building, and he was the lead witness against his former company in federal court. This is due to his integrity, and I admire him for it, because I believe he made the right decision, and I also believe that most people put their financial self-interest before their ethics (if they have them at all), and he is an example to behold in the business world. He is a man of integrity and a leader I will gladly follow today and tomorrow.
Re: scams
Yep, there are all kinds of scams out there--in EVERY industry and you will find the scammers in every walk of life. Every one of them. If this is news to anyone, I feel sorry for them. But to paint Citizenre with the same brush strokes as you used to tell the story of the examples you happen to know about is unfair. Give Citizenre a chance to show you what we are up to. And if you think you can demand information from a private company in the start-up phase before that company wants to give it to you, you are setting youself up for disappointment right off the bat.
Allegation of Ponzi/Pyramid scheme
Wikipedia: "A Ponzi scheme usually offers abnormally high short-term returns in order to entice new investors. The high returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises (and pays) require an ever-increasing flow of money from investors in order to keep the scheme going." "A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered." One question for you: where is the money coming from? Customers and associates are asked for no money. Please answer this.
Most likely they will lure people with promise of FREE solar panels on their roof but will try to get some poor souls to sign papers to co-own (where have you seen those words before?) the panels AND the loan that Citizenre will have to take out to pay for it.
That's pretty laughable for a number of reasons, but mainly because the FRA (Forward Rental Agreement) is available for anyone to inspect on our website righ now! Do some homework, and you will see how crazy your uninformed allegation is.
Seriously, if you want more info, do your homework, or shoot me an email, and I'll explain things to you and answer any questions you have.
Whew! Lighten up Man!
PJ
http://www.qcimarketing.com/
I'm not sure I can answer all of this. I'd say that after the first year the company also holds 2 billion in assets. So it is not as though the money is thrown away. Now a portion of these will be sold out right. A portion will be set to work earning money over time. The amount of time is 25 years. I think you left out a factor of 5 when you estimated 360 million in five years so lets make that 1.8 billion in five years. Now, the assets have almost payed for themselves in that time and most of the remaing 20 years is profit. I think your $300/mo number is a little high but if we cut in in half, then there is still a pretty good margin.
In terms of hacking, I think you might have a point. One might be able to shave off a few percent of the production without getting picked up by the system monitor. Much more than that and the weatherman would give you away. I don't think a tarp helps since if you did that you'd have to pay the utility at a higher rate.
I can say that Styler is pretty responsive to issues that people raise. He really likes network marketing. And, he is not asking anyone in sales for money that I know of to do sales. People are signed up to get systems, but no money has changed hands since the brick a mortar franchises don't have panels yet. He says that he objects to systems where quotas drive people to sell to themselves (the pyramid) and was involved in the prosecution of Equinox after he left that company over his objection to that scheme. Both investors and franchises have to pony up bucks. This is pretty normal though.
As I say, I'm not sure I've covered everything.
Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
Steal some panels and take them to the lab...
There were at least 4 posts in the firehose on this, with a number rising. Questions about the marketing method have been festering in comments for a while now. Why not have it out?
This story has about a third as many posts so far as other stories on power generation, but 200 posts is still respectable. If Slashdot waits for full production and market acceptance, it will be runing stories like "Utility install new poles in new development." Slashdot readers want to know about new stuff. That means they read about a lot of vaporware but that goes with the territory. They also learn about technology trends sooner than most as well. That's the stuff that matters.
Accelerate then Coast is by far the best car fuel efficiency. It is at least 25% better economy. City driving betters 20 mpg to 25 mpg. Highway 30 plus.
Ideal driving with 50% per gas mileage is on a loney road speeding to 65 miles/hr then coasting to 20 miles/hr and then repeat. And accelerating quicker the better.
If you drive to 45 miles/hr then coast back to 25 or 30 miles/hr you are guarenteed 25% gas savings. I tested it!!
Score & Karma: SASA: Slashdot Approval Seekers Anonymous
There's a difference between a Pyramid (or ponzi) scheme and an MLM. The former is illegal and based on fraud, while the latter is legal, even if it is (shudder) marketing.
...or I may go with a short-term contract. I don't know yet.
In a ponzi scheme, profit comes from subsequent investors' buy-in.
In an MLM, profit comes from the sale of intrinsically valuable goods or services to customers.
The distinction is important. One (the MLM) is a sustainable business model where your pay reflects the value you've contributed (yes, bringing buyers and sellers together does add value), while the other (pyramid) is unsustainable and will inevitably collapse under its own weight because your pay is based not on sales to customers, but on sales to other marketers. Without new customers who buy stuff (or better yet, an ongoing commodity), the only way to remain liquid is to bring in more 'investors'.
If you're asked to invest heavily up front in a 'business opportunity' (usually, the opportunity to sell the opportunity, rather than anything of intrinsic value), odds are it's a ponzi scheme- no responsible MLM is structured to need its representatives' money in order to work. Since what they're selling is contracts to rent power installations over long-term periods, and none of the contracts call for significant up-front outlays on the part of either the marketer or the customer, this doesn't appear to be anything fishy. My only questions have to do with where the solar arrays come from, and how they're financed. Is it possible for the company to finance a solar array with the revenue it generates on an ongoing basis?
This will be an interesting one to watch. What this company is doing, in a certain sense, is competing with local monopolies at their price point, for the right to be your primary provider of electricity. If they can do it and stay in business over time, watch the world change.
Note that I'm not affiliated in any way with these folks. I've looked at what they offer, and my only real concern is that under the terms of the contract, I'd be agreeing to buy all the electricity provided by the array, even if I didn't use it all- meaning I'd be buying power at retail, and selling it at wholesale (those are the terms with Seattle City Light) back to the grid. This means if I choose to be their customer, I don't want an array big enough to produce more power than I already consume. Since my long-term desire is to cover my entire roof with solar panels and put my excess into my car, I may sit this offer out.
If there's one thing I won't stand for, it's intolerance.
"Well, converting 10 houses to solar hot water still does not do as much converting 10 to 100% PV"
For the cost of converting 10 to solar, you can convert more than 100 to solar hot water - this will generate greater energy savings, as well as greater impact on greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally, there are no "grid caps" on solar hot water, and you don't need the grid to "store" your hot water - just a larger tank, which also makes you more immune to power failures.
"Citizenre's anticipated cost of production is $1.53 per peak watt."
Maybe (and that's a BIG maybe) 10 years from now ... whereas solar hot water is feasible TODAY.
"The contract to build the plant includes penalties for delays."
Whoever told you that is lying - there IS no contract to build any plant. These plants don't just spring into being overnight, or even in the space of a few months. Word would get around pretty quickly as to the signing of a contract. Besides, the building of a production facility on the scale envisioned would require public hearings - unless, of course, its being off-shored to an area that allows factories to be set up without concern for their impact on the environment. Even then, there's no way they can cut the manufacturing cost by 2/3 - and even if they cut it to ZERO, the other costs (installation, etc) would still make it unprofitable. Nobody works for free, especially in the building trades, and especially when each system has to be inspected before being connected to the electrical grid, so you're talking union labour rates, not "gypsy sub-contractors".
You're being scammed to do market research so someone else can soak investors. If they had the money, there is no reason not to reveal it - just tell the bank to release the account balance - this doesn't mean revealing the identity of the investors, and would shut up a lot of nay-sayers. They won't do it because they can't - neither the money nor the investors are there.
The "warranty" is crap:
In other words, you'd better oversize it by 25% - but then you're also paying too much for electricity generated until it declines in performance.
Here's an extra-expense tidbit from those "terms" - you have to maintain a fixed land line for the next 25 years (so much for people who, like me and my daughters, and some of my friends, all who all use our cells as our only line):
What's the "hidden
Thanks for looking at the contract and raising these questions; they are important ones. Let me say right off that the phone line requirement was a big hold up for me. Back in December I received assurance that VOIP would be OK and on a recent technical call it was clear that the engineering side prefers a router connection if available. Now, if you assume that some time in the future, you won't want any form of two way data in your home that the solar power system can use for communication then your argument about hidden cost would be valid I thing. However, the contract is up front about the need for a communication method. It is just less flexible than the reality.
- could-be-paid-for-by.html) but in this case, I'd expect them to face criminal penalties.
I took that out of order because this is a clause in the contract which requires additional information. Back to the first isssue: my point was that with a large market penetration, solar hot water is a bad technology if you take it to be mutually exclusive since it cannot do as much as PV. I also pointed out that they are not mutually exclusive.
On the anticipated cost per peak watt, it is true that a decade is involved since this is the period over which the cost of contruction is spread, but this is not the sense you mean. To me, a cost much above $1.53 would be bad sign given where production in China is heading.
On the plant construction contract, delay penelties have been mentioned by both the CEO and CTO. There are also bonuses for early completion. Presumably the timescale is based on past experience in building such plants. As is normal with a startup, there are a number of NDA's in effect. I am not a party to any of them so I don't have any information that I would not be able to disclose anyway. But, I would say that contracts generally do exist prior to execution, that's why they are written. I do think you've argued yourself into a corner here though. The company can't be scamming consumers since it takes no money and now it can't be scamming investors since you say they don't exist. About the only thing left is that this is another ploy by ExxonMobil to delay adoption of renewables. I wouldn't put it past them (http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/your-opinion
On panel degradation, no, the systems are sized to meet 100% of annual use at the beginning. Since the customer's annual use may change, they will be resized up or down to compensate. I'd expect degradation to have a smaller variance, but if this is the main thing, panels will be added to keep up with the degradation. This is an advantage to renting.
Telephone line: already covered.
There is no lein on the home. Mortgage holders must ackowledge that there can be no lein on the system. If you think about it this makes a lot of sense. This is a rental contract, not a sales contract. In the case of foreclosure, the company needs to be able to recover its property.
If you rent a car, you, or your insurance company, are on the hook if it is damaged. Same thing here. The company plans to provide a method of insurance if the homeowners policy won't cover it. We are getting different answers so far from State Farm. My agent says Fire, Explosion and Theft, while an agent in IL says everything but flood and nuclear incident. More work is needed here.
If you don't approve the system design the contract is over. That is what approval means in 7.2.
The rent is on what the system actually produces, not on what is might produce. If you don't pay your bill, you still owe it. If the system is removed owing to default, it won't be producing power so there can't be any claim on lost revenues. 9.1 basically says you can't use your security deposit to pay your past due rent. I've never seen a rental contract that does not say that.
Citizenre will be offereing systems for sale, but this offer is for rental. I hope you will reconsider your accusation that this is a scam since it does not appear to be based on any facts, only misunderstandings.
Please read the contract again - the "approval" is not the approval by the client of the designs, but the approval by the company of the client's "application". The money is due when the company gives the customer the design - which can be years before its installed.
No contract for the plant exists. Public hearings are required for zoning changes, and anything that large would attract a lot of attention. Like municipal zoning change requests ... which are public.
The investors being scammed are the future investors - "look, we have this huge order backlog - lend us money for the plant" - as well as anyone foolish enough to sign up for this sight unseen.
The clause about owing the 25 years rental in one shot is for any default - which includes not paying the $500 when the "design plans" are submitted to the client. This would make a nice scam - give the client plans, then when they refuse to pay the deposit because the delivery date is years off, they're in default - collect $40,000.00 (and if they don't pay it, seize their home).
Read 7.2 again. It doesn't say the customer has any approval or veto on the design:
It's the company that approves the design - not the customer; after all, its the company that has to approve the design (drawn up by either their workers or a 3rd party contractor), then give it, along with a billl for $500, to the customer.
Don't believe me? Take a look at the "termination options"
http://renu.citizenre.com/index.php?p=svc_h_ter
Nowhere is there an option for the customer to terminate the agreement if "they don't approve the design". Nowhere! Quite the contrary. Once they've been "approved", they're stuck.
If the customer could cancel the agreement after their "application" has been accepted, why not say it somewhere on the site? They don't.
Again, they don't have a factory, nor do they even have a site for it; they don't have the money, and their contracts are designed to mislead. Sorry, but it doesn't pass the "smell test".
On your other speculation, it seems to me that anyone with a mortgage is going to have a ton of laywers on their side saying seeya to your proposed scam. There is no lein involved. This is a rental not a lease or a sale.
The FAQ is not a part of the contract. The "General Terms and Conditions" are - they're included by reference - the FAQ isn't.
There are 3 rules:
A FAQ or a printout from a web site isn't going to stand up in court against the actual terms of the contract. Again, why isn't it mentioned in the contract? Simple - because its not part of the contract.
"it seems to me that anyone with a mortgage is going to have a ton of laywers on their side saying seeya to your proposed scam. There is no lein involved. This is a rental not a lease or a sale.
Actually, its a long-term lease, not a rental. Read the contract.
Its the same deal as leasing a car - you try to get out of the lease early, then you have to pay a penalty. That's why the contract mentions the specific penalty - including but not limited to the rental for the full term of the contract.
So if and when they demand ther 25 years of fees as liquidated damages, and you haven't got $50,000, they'll be quite able to throw you into bankruptcy. Your house goes bye-bye ...
Again, if its so easy to cancel, why doesn't the contract spell it out? Because its a scam ???
Well, you brought up attaching the house, which would require a lein and as you see there is none. I would suggest you consult an attorney on what the contract means. I have told you and you don't accept what I say. A lease includes an ownership interest in the system, a rental does not. The only place the word lease is mentioned in the contract is to say that the contract is not a lease or as sale. Rent is only owed on the power produced. If the system is removed prior to the end of the contract, you lose your deposit, but their is no basis for charging future rent because the system can't produce power. When Citizenre expands to Canada, perhaps we should discuss this further.
No, I'll try one more time. You lease a car, it is yours for the duration of the lease. Yours to drive and to fix. The only thing you don't own is the resale value of the car after the lease is up. Neither did you pay for it. If you rent a car, you may drive it, but you will get in trouble if you take it to a garage without the permission of the rental company because it is not yours. You need to contact the company and they will figure out what to do. Usually, they bring you another car. But, it is up to them because they own it, not you.
Get it now? Citizenre rents you an appliance that produces power, they maintain it. You get to own the power through rent, just as you get to own your trip from the airport to where ever you are going by rental car through rent. You do not own the equipment, just the service it provides.
The contract spells this out. Please reread it. Penalties are decribed in 7.5. They do not include any full term provisions, only past due amounts.
With all of the negativity (and outright lies, misinformation, and disinformation based on flawed assumptions) floating around out there, not a SINGLE poster has once mentioned ANY flaws in the Independent Investment Advisor's Analysis. Not one.
How about that?
So much for critical analysis! Hahaha!!
PJ
http://www.qcimarketing.com/
You have misunderstood the meaning of subrogate. The mortgage holder must acknowledge that the system is not owned by the homeowner. That is it. It can't be attached in case of foreclosure.
I agree with Canada's consumer protection if you are representing it accurately. There is no sale until the customer approves the design, and systems are not designed until panels are on hand. Presumably, it is not illegal in Canada to be on a wait list for a Prius. However, Citizenre is concentrating on the US market for now.
I really do think you should consult with an attorney on the levels of ownership interest in the various transactions. I am not one and I may have misunderstood what I've read in the law or have been told by those who practice it.