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I totally agree on Sonar. There tends to be a lot of "fan-boi-ism" that comes with the Pro-Tools crowd, or even the Logic crowd. Nothing wrong with either application, both are great, but they are not, repeat NOT, in any way, special or superior to many of the other commercial DAWs. I'm running Cakewalk X1 Producer, and I have to tell you, I can't imagine using anything else. Now, admittedly, I've been using Cakewalk's stuff for years, so I'm used to their particular workflow, but I defy anyone to point me to any capability that their DAW of choice has that Sonar doesn't.

If you're reasonably serious (and it sounds like the poster is), I would suggest starting with at least Sonar Studio (which is their mid-grade option). There's nothing wrong with the basic package, it just lacks some features that you're going to want. You can also go with Producer and get everything you could want and more, but at just over $500, it may be more than you're wanting to spend if the software it new to you.

As for a program for musical notation, check out Notion. I use it and I love it, and it is only $99 (much more affordable than Finale. Now keep in mind, like Finale, these packages don't really come with powerful Virtual Synths/Virtual Orchestras, so the "sound" you're going to get it going to depend on what you choose to use as the virtual instrument. If you're talking about orchestral stuff (and given that you're needing notation, I'm going to assume you do), there are many choices, and the good ones aren't cheap. You can go for East-West Quantum Leap, or Vienna Symphonic, or East-Wests's Complete Composer's Edition, and never look back, but it's gonna be expensive.

If, however, you want one that sounds really quite good, and is a little easier on the wallet, give a listen to Miroslav Philharmonik. The strings, winds, brass, and percussion all sound quite good, in my opinion. The choirs leave a little to be desired, and some of the woodwinds could be more crisp, but overall, for $149, I think it's a good deal.

I totally agree on Sonar. There tends to be a lot of "fan-boi-ism" that comes with the Pro-Tools crowd, or even the Logic crowd. Nothing wrong with either application, both are great, but they are not, repeat NOT, in any way, special or superior to many of the other commercial DAWs. I'm running Cakewalk X1 Producer, and I have to tell you, I can't imagine using anything else. Now, admittedly, I've been using Cakewalk's stuff for years, so I'm used to their particular workflow, but I defy anyone to point me to any capability that their DAW of choice has that Sonar doesn't.

If you're reasonably serious (and it sounds like the poster is), I would suggest starting with at least Sonar Studio (which is their mid-grade option). There's nothing wrong with the basic package, it just lacks some features that you're going to want. You can also go with Producer and get everything you could want and more, but at just over $500, it may be more than you're wanting to spend if the software it new to you.

As for a program for musical notation, check out Notion. I use it and I love it, and it is only $99 (much more affordable than Finale. Now keep in mind, like Finale, these packages don't really come with powerful Virtual Synths/Virtual Orchestras, so the "sound" you're going to get it going to depend on what you choose to use as the virtual instrument. If you're talking about orchestral stuff (and given that you're needing notation, I'm going to assume you do), there are many choices, and the good ones aren't cheap. You can go for East-West Quantum Leap, or Vienna Symphonic, or East-Wests's Complete Composer's Edition, and never look back, but it's gonna be expensive.

If, however, you want one that sounds really quite good, and is a little easier on the wallet, give a listen to Miroslav Philharmonik. The strings, winds, brass, and percussion all sound quite good, in my opinion. The choirs leave a little to be desired, and some of the woodwinds could be more crisp, but overall, for $149, I think it's a good deal.

I have yet to meet the synthesizer that can even remotely duplicate the dulcet noises of the old-fashioned dead trees and metal strings of my grand piano.

You would be surprised at how well some of the sampled, Virtual Instruments have progressed.

East West Quantum Leap Pianos

Native Instruments Piano Collection

8dio 1928 Steinway

Now again, so be clear, I'm not supporting the position that computers will ever replace musicians or actual, real instruments, mind you. I just wanted to point out that VST's have really come a long way, particularly in the last 10 years or so. No more are you stuck with Garritan Pocket Orchestra, and sad, tinny reproductions of instruments based on the PC wavetables. If you've got the money to spend, you can get some amazing sounds, with a stunning amount of dynamics and articulations availble.

Because commercial samples are DRM'd. The ones for Kontakt use its DRM, the EastWest ones use Play, their own sampler. They are not in convertible formats. Not my favourite setup, but it is how it is done. The producers of samples feel piracy is a major problem, so they basically all use DRM.

What will I do when support for Kontakt ends? Well probably nothing, since I'm likely to be dead by then. It has a rather good chance of lasting a long time and that aside, old version work fine. Kontakt 1.5 still runs no problem on modern systems (6 is current).

It is just the reality of quality samples. You want them, you deal with the DRM. I'm not a fan, but there's not an option. The free samples I've been pointed to are generally laughably bad, and sometimes not even free, they are just resampled versions of commercial samples and thus pirated.

If you happen to know of a place that has good free or at least DRM free samples, I'd love to hear about it. However bear in mind by good, I mean professional grade, the kind of things that are used to make video games, movies that kind of thing. Something like this http://www.soundsonline.com/Symphonic-Orchestra (and yes all the demos on the page were made using it).

A strong second on the Pro Audio end here. I know this is a well worn topic that we've all re-hashed several times (much like the often discussed Photoshop vs Gimp topic), but there just isn't anything available on Linux that is going to touch what's available in the Pro Audio world for serious musicians and composers. As far as trying to get Sonar Producer X1 to run under WINE, there's just no way anyone can deal with the performance hit, I don't care what kind of system you're running, or how fast your Audio Interface is. Once you've got some major virtual instruments loaded, and you're making your system really work, there's just no way any kind of virtual machine is going to be able to work for you. Not trying to start another flame war, but I have to say this is definitely one of the reasons that I keep one of my computers on Windows 7 64 Bit.

But, I will say that my other computer is my own hand built server running Debian, with a nice little installation of Ampache which I can recommend highly if anyone wants to stream their own MP3's to themselves at work or to share with their friends/family.

I don't think you've heard what a skilled orchestrator can do with a synthesizer or sampler such as Hollywood Strings or Vienna Symphonic Library.

I recommend you listen to some of the demo songs from each one. I recommend Allegro Agitato.

I don't think you've heard what a skilled orchestrator can do with a synthesizer or sampler such as Hollywood Strings or Vienna Symphonic Library.

I recommend you listen to some of the demo songs from each one. I recommend Allegro Agitato.

I don't think you've heard what a skilled orchestrator can do with a synthesizer or sampler such as Hollywood Strings or Vienna Symphonic Library.

I recommend you listen to some of the demo songs from each one. I recommend Allegro Agitato.

We need to automate the generation and production of music, and crush the music industry like a bug.

Listen to this sample. That was created with Yamaha Vocaloid. The product sells for $179.95. It's better than many singers. We're getting close.

This technology is like MIDI players, a generation later. You need the composition and instrument models. Then the player puts it all together. You can mix and match; choose a different singer or instruments. (Question: is there enough compute power in an iPhone to run this?)

If this catches on, the music industry will be crushed.

There's still a need for composers. Easy Music Composer isn't quite good enough. Yet.

It is designed to take MIDI input and text and generate a synthetic voice. Songsmith is designed to analyze a voice and generate music for it. Songsmith might be compared to something like Sony's Cinescore. It is designed to come up with musical accompaniment easily. Vocaloid would compare to the Eastwest Symphonic Choirs http://www.soundsonline.com/Symphonic-Choirs-PLAY-Edition-pr-EW-182.html.

They leave with the best that they can do on a mastered CD, ready to be duped, its all theirs, no strings, just a leg up.

Go here.

It seems like MIDI discussion come up every so often on Slashdot.

First, a couple things to get cleared up:

MIDI is just a serial protocol, nothing more. It's been around since the early 80's. The protocol defines 128 MIDI notes, on 16 channels, and 128 controllers that have values of 0 - 127. That's basically it, along with a few other things like channel change and bank change messages. MIDI itself does not define any instruments, because MIDI is used to control non-instrument devices like effects boxes too.

Now, when most normal computer people think of MIDI, what they are actually thinking of is GM or "General MIDI." GM defines a standard set of instruments, for example instrument 1 is always a piano, instrument 74 is always a flute, etc.
It's up to the hardware or software to actually implement these instruments, usually done with wavetable samples. The idea is that a MIDI file played through any "GM compatible" device will sound roughly the same on any other GM device, although the quality of the samples varies widely. Roland's GS is an extension of GM.

GM used to be used for games primarily (think Doom1 and Doom2!) but has fallen by the wayside now that everybody is using full audio tracks for music.

But most of the music created for video games these stays was still created using MIDI! The file format is specific to the studio application, but MIDI is still used internally to communicate with various synthesizers and samplers including virtual synths that run on the local machine.
So if you were to get the original data files, you would need to also have the sample libraries-- which are VERY high quality, and can cost several thousand dollars. And you need to be using software that works with these libraries, which rules out free/OSS software-- you're gonna NEED something like Sonar, Logic Audio, etc.

Almost all video games and most TV shows that have symphonic music are actually MIDI based, but use enormous sample libraries like EastWest symphony orchestra. In fact I believe that the Return to Castle Wolfenstein soundtrack was created mostly with that sample library.

Other examples, the "fire baby" sequence in The Incredibles is created with Voices of the Apocalypse so even realistic choirs can be created using MIDI.

You don't have to spend THAT much though-- the libraries I use the most are Storm Drum and Garritan Personal Orchestra, both of which are very affordable but good enough that they are often used in hollywood. All of these are plugins that can be used in many different software packages on both OSX and Windows, but not linux that I'm aware of.

So, nowadays MIDI is still an integral part of even the most modern studios, but General MIDI is nowhere in sight. GM still has a place in cell phone ringers.

It seems like MIDI discussion come up every so often on Slashdot.

First, a couple things to get cleared up:

MIDI is just a serial protocol, nothing more. It's been around since the early 80's. The protocol defines 128 MIDI notes, on 16 channels, and 128 controllers that have values of 0 - 127. That's basically it, along with a few other things like channel change and bank change messages. MIDI itself does not define any instruments, because MIDI is used to control non-instrument devices like effects boxes too.

Now, when most normal computer people think of MIDI, what they are actually thinking of is GM or "General MIDI." GM defines a standard set of instruments, for example instrument 1 is always a piano, instrument 74 is always a flute, etc.
It's up to the hardware or software to actually implement these instruments, usually done with wavetable samples. The idea is that a MIDI file played through any "GM compatible" device will sound roughly the same on any other GM device, although the quality of the samples varies widely. Roland's GS is an extension of GM.

GM used to be used for games primarily (think Doom1 and Doom2!) but has fallen by the wayside now that everybody is using full audio tracks for music.

But most of the music created for video games these stays was still created using MIDI! The file format is specific to the studio application, but MIDI is still used internally to communicate with various synthesizers and samplers including virtual synths that run on the local machine.
So if you were to get the original data files, you would need to also have the sample libraries-- which are VERY high quality, and can cost several thousand dollars. And you need to be using software that works with these libraries, which rules out free/OSS software-- you're gonna NEED something like Sonar, Logic Audio, etc.

Almost all video games and most TV shows that have symphonic music are actually MIDI based, but use enormous sample libraries like EastWest symphony orchestra. In fact I believe that the Return to Castle Wolfenstein soundtrack was created mostly with that sample library.

Other examples, the "fire baby" sequence in The Incredibles is created with Voices of the Apocalypse so even realistic choirs can be created using MIDI.

You don't have to spend THAT much though-- the libraries I use the most are Storm Drum and Garritan Personal Orchestra, both of which are very affordable but good enough that they are often used in hollywood. All of these are plugins that can be used in many different software packages on both OSX and Windows, but not linux that I'm aware of.

So, nowadays MIDI is still an integral part of even the most modern studios, but General MIDI is nowhere in sight. GM still has a place in cell phone ringers.

It seems like MIDI discussion come up every so often on Slashdot.

First, a couple things to get cleared up:

MIDI is just a serial protocol, nothing more. It's been around since the early 80's. The protocol defines 128 MIDI notes, on 16 channels, and 128 controllers that have values of 0 - 127. That's basically it, along with a few other things like channel change and bank change messages. MIDI itself does not define any instruments, because MIDI is used to control non-instrument devices like effects boxes too.

Now, when most normal computer people think of MIDI, what they are actually thinking of is GM or "General MIDI." GM defines a standard set of instruments, for example instrument 1 is always a piano, instrument 74 is always a flute, etc.
It's up to the hardware or software to actually implement these instruments, usually done with wavetable samples. The idea is that a MIDI file played through any "GM compatible" device will sound roughly the same on any other GM device, although the quality of the samples varies widely. Roland's GS is an extension of GM.

GM used to be used for games primarily (think Doom1 and Doom2!) but has fallen by the wayside now that everybody is using full audio tracks for music.

But most of the music created for video games these stays was still created using MIDI! The file format is specific to the studio application, but MIDI is still used internally to communicate with various synthesizers and samplers including virtual synths that run on the local machine.
So if you were to get the original data files, you would need to also have the sample libraries-- which are VERY high quality, and can cost several thousand dollars. And you need to be using software that works with these libraries, which rules out free/OSS software-- you're gonna NEED something like Sonar, Logic Audio, etc.

Almost all video games and most TV shows that have symphonic music are actually MIDI based, but use enormous sample libraries like EastWest symphony orchestra. In fact I believe that the Return to Castle Wolfenstein soundtrack was created mostly with that sample library.

Other examples, the "fire baby" sequence in The Incredibles is created with Voices of the Apocalypse so even realistic choirs can be created using MIDI.

You don't have to spend THAT much though-- the libraries I use the most are Storm Drum and Garritan Personal Orchestra, both of which are very affordable but good enough that they are often used in hollywood. All of these are plugins that can be used in many different software packages on both OSX and Windows, but not linux that I'm aware of.

So, nowadays MIDI is still an integral part of even the most modern studios, but General MIDI is nowhere in sight. GM still has a place in cell phone ringers.

There are two proudcts for singing that I'm aware of that are pretty good. One is Yamaha's Vocaloid. That's for solo vocals http://www.vocaloid.com/en/index.html for info and demos. It's pretty good, generally needs to be masked behind some kind of effects to not sound too synthesized, but still pretty impressive. The other is the EastWest Symphonic Choirs. As the name implies, it's choir samples and is geared for classical, but damn, when properly programmed I challenge you to tell them apart from the real deal. http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml? sku=EW-165 for info and demos.

Here's where the Yamaha software products are available online - for windoze XP or 2000- starting in December.

Vocaloid LOLA - Female Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid LEON - Male Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid MIRIAM - Virtual Female Vocalist. $399.95

Has a screenshot and description of the process of constructing a song track.

Note that each virtual singer's voice description file is referred to as a "font". B-)

Here's where the Yamaha software products are available online - for windoze XP or 2000- starting in December.

Vocaloid LOLA - Female Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid LEON - Male Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid MIRIAM - Virtual Female Vocalist. $399.95

Has a screenshot and description of the process of constructing a song track.

Note that each virtual singer's voice description file is referred to as a "font". B-)

Here's where the Yamaha software products are available online - for windoze XP or 2000- starting in December.

Vocaloid LOLA - Female Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid LEON - Male Soul Vocalist. $329.95
Vocaloid MIRIAM - Virtual Female Vocalist. $399.95

Has a screenshot and description of the process of constructing a song track.

Note that each virtual singer's voice description file is referred to as a "font". B-)

hey maybe IT industry should take a note from us musicians for a change (excuse the pun)...

With sampling technology, especially multisampling where for example each note can have different sounds associated to it depending on the accent, you could achieve some really stunning results in the text to speech market.

People like EastWest have created such systems for virtual choirs...check out Voices Of The Apocalypse as this is some pretty basic but revolutionary way of using samplers...

Try Sounds Online, an on-line outlet for sample CDs. You should be able to get your hands on Moog samples there.