Domain: sourcemage.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to sourcemage.org.
Comments · 56
-
Re:Talk about a gimmick
Well, having used Source Mage GNU Linux(which used to be Sorcerer GNU Linux) since the middle of febuary, I would like to comment on your claim that compiling from source makes the distro unstable.
While there have been a few bumps, the number of upgrades that have gone of without issues is simply staggering. And if you depend on a package, you can "hold" it (essentially disabling automatic upgrades, on a package by package basis), or if an upgrade goes sour, you can roll-back to a working version. And the upgrades are totally opt-in, you could keep the install excatly like the day you first did it.
Currently the distro is transitioning to KDE 3, GNOME 2 and GCC 3.1, and all of it is happening in an orderly fashion, with each package being tested and the upgrade keept out of the grimoire (package system) until it is ready. And even then there are two slower moving grimoires, "testing" and "stable", which will not get the upgrades, till they have been in use for some time.
And I would just like to add that it ROCKS! And it haven't even reached the point where the crew are willing to call it 1.0. -
Binary Distros Are DeadWell, not quite, but now that I've got your attention...
:-)
It isn't the packaging format really ... most of the issues raised are inherent to binary based distros, which with todays processors really should become a thing of the past.
Source Mage and Gentoo[1] are two excellent source based distros that avoid these classes of problems altogether, and unlike RPM (or debs[2]) add no burden to the upstream software developer.
Shawn Gordon of The Kompany touches on this when he says (from the article, you did read the article, right?)
So rather than providing a myriad of different binary RPMs for the dozens of different Linux distribution, The Kompany, which is a commercial entity developing Linux applications, reluctantly decides to give away the source code to paying customers. [Emphesis added]
Source based distros like Gentoo and Source Mage have packaging systems that automate the process of downloading, configuring, compiling, and installing all of the software on their systems from source (pedants will note there is the occasional binary package, e.g. NVidia drivers, but for the vast, vast majority of software my point holds). Indeed, this approach makes the packaging system itself less important (so long as it works properly) than the overall engineering and organization of the distro itself, and completely irrelevant to the software developer (as it should be).
This has a couple of disadvantages, and a whole bunch of real advantages. So much so that almost no one who has used a source based distro will go back to a binary based distro once they've tried it, despite the cons (in fact, of the numerous people I know who've tried Source Mage and Gentoo, both very different from one another BTW, I know of not a single person who has gone back to their old binary favorite, be it Suse, Mandrake, Red Hat, or Debian).
-
- CONS of source based distros
- Initial install typically requires source to all of the system, which is generally downloaded from the net. I.e. in most cases requires a fat pipe for installation.
- The installation is time consuming, due to the fact that each package must be compiled. For modern CPUs this isn't such a big deal (a day will suffice, most of which you can spend away from the computer while it chugs away), but for older CPUs like an AMD K6 233 I have, the initial install can literally take days.
- CONS of source based distros
-
- PROS of source based distros
- Updates and upgrades typically require much less bandwidth than their binary equivelents, as only the new package's source needs to be downloaded.
- The software is compiled optimized for your hardware. Typically such systems run 20-30% faster than their binary equivelents, based on some casual benchmarking I and a few others have done.
- The software is compiled against the exact library versions installed on your system, so no subtle incompatabilities arise due to slightly mis-matched binaries. This eliminates a whole class of bugs, and a whole host of problems that can affect stability and reliability.
- In the case of Gentoo, you have very precise control over the configuration of your system, and what is installed vs. what is not, as well as where it is installed to.
- In the case of Source Mage, the system is auto-healing, meaning that if and when a new library is installed and the older one removed, all packages that rely on that library are recompiled against the new library. This makes upgrades (on Source Mage) very easy.
- Upgrades are very easy. In the case of Source Mage they are virtually automatic (you select the package to update and everything is taken care of for you), in the case of Gentoo they are less automatic and require some care, but are nevertheless easier than with any binary distribution I've ever tried (and I've used all the major ones at one time or another), and with Gentoo the flexibility of having multiple versions of libraries and even runtime apps is very useful.
- Security is improved in one way: the ease and ability to keep up with security updates. Binary distros are still trying to get this to work smoothly (and mostly not succeeding, or requiring a tradeoff like Debian Stable, in which one must run 2 year-old software to enjoy that level of security). This is really a side effect of the previous point, but is significant enough to deserve sepearate mention.
- The ability to run current hardware. Again, this goes back to the ease and stability of upgrades inherent in source based distros like Source Mage and Gentoo. Source Mage had X 4.2 out a day after its release, giving its users the advantages of all the new features and bug fixes it had to offer. Ditto for KDE 3. Gentoo had these packages out almost as quickly. This means users get the latest features, and the latest bug fixes, almost immediately, in contrast to binary distros that typically require 3-6 months (worse for some distros. I still recall the Debian developers irate answer to a user's question on when thye could expect X 4.2 support in the experimental version of Debian ("unstable"), to the effect of "leave me alone, it will be months!")
- PROS of source based distros
There are numerous other advantages I could add here, but you get the idea.
The entire article on the flaws of RPM might better be entitled "The Flaws of Source Based Distributions" which, in the age of Free Software and source code availability, coupled with todays fast processors, really ought to become a thing of the past. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Debian, Suse, Mandrake, and Red Hat all embracing the notion of source-based distros sometime in the future ... as processors get even faster, the day long install (on my dual 1 GHz P3), which has already shrunk to less than half a day on the dual 2GHz Athlon I have at work, will shrink even more, to a couple of hours or less.
And the advantages in speed, stability, and ability to keep current with new software releases in a timely manner will only become more acute as time goes on.
So while binary based distros are by no means dead (despite my rather provocative headline), it is my opinion that the writing is certainly on the wall, and the ovservant person can already mark the shifting change in the wind.
[1]There are other source based distros as well, including Linux from Scratch and Lunar Penguin, and likely others as well.
[2]Though in fairness the Debian developers take up most if not all of that burden -
-
Re:Package Management?
Source Mage Linux and Gentoo have good package system. Source Mage's is called sorcery, it will download the latest source from the authors website and compile and install it. For example, to install xfree86 you would type "cast xfree86". Gentoo uses a portage system very similar to the BSD ports.
-
Re:To be honest...
...I didn't realise Red Hat had much dominance. I'd always thought of it as the "crappy Linux distro" (which I know is unfair). I run Windows 2000 at the moment, and have been looking into which distro would be best for my needs. Essentially, Mandrake and SuSE were the two that seemed most useful. RedHat never featured.
If you are not afraid to get your hands dirty, and don't mind compiling stuff, you should give Source Mage or Gentoo a gander. Both are "source-based" distros, meaning their packaging systems have been designed to automate the download-compile-install procedure. The result are packages that are compiled against the libraries already on your system (read: no subtle binary compatability issues between library versions, etc. as crop up with binary distros from time to time, and is the reason redhat RPMs often don't work with Suse and visa versa), and which are optimized for your hardware. Systems so constructed are typically 20-30% faster (based on anecdotal benchmarks people on the mailing lists have run. It matches my own experience ... my video capture, editing, and playback tools run much more smoothly on a Source Mage or Gentoo system than any other binary distro I've tried, and I've tried a bunch of them).
cons:
* installation takes time
- time to download sourcecode packages
- time to compile said packages
* you have to get your hands dirty
- no easy X config a la Mandrake/Suse/RH
- no hardware autodetection a la Mandrake
pros:
* stable, rock solid system
* fast, optimized system
* very current versions of the software
* ability to keep current fairly easilly (no waiting for months, perhaps even a year, before getting the current version of xfree or KDE)
* utter flexibility as to what you choose to include or exclude from your installation ... little to no cruft
* package system takes most of the pain out of compiling and installing packages by hand -
With the Right GNU/Linux Distro Fixes Are FAST
For Linux users, it would be up to the Linux distro to provide patches like that if they wished. But none of them will either. Too much work for no money
On my Source Mage system I simply run a 'sorcery update' before going to bed, and any new versions of packages are downloaded, compiled, and upgraded accordingly. All dependent packages are recompiled as needed, such that all are optomized and compiled against the most current rev. Downloading and compiling mozilla may be time consuming, but if I'm asleep while its happening who really cares?
On my Gentoo system I do an 'emerge rsync' followed by an 'emerge --update system --pretend' (to first see what it is going to do), then if I like what is going to happen, the same command again without the --pretend to actually do the update, followed by an 'emerge --update world --pretend' and, once again if I like what is going to happen, an 'emerge --update world'. If I don't want to upgrade everything (not as safe to do under Gentoo as Source Mage) I simply do an 'emerge --update [package-name]', such as 'emerge --update mozilla' before going to sleep.
In either case, the next morning I wake up with the most current security patches (if any) and newest stable versions of all the Free Software out there, including Mozilla.
I had Mozilla rc2 running within 24 hours of its release, fully compiled and optimized for my machine. No waiting on Red Hat, Suse, or, God forbid, Debian to get around to pushing their versions out. (Though in defense of Debian they do push SECURITY fixes out very fast ... its just the snazzy new versions of things that take a lifetime before you see them ... e.g. "Stop asking me when X 4.2 debs will be out, it will be months!" as one of the developers posted, a day or two after 4.2 had been released by the XFree group, and was already up and running on my Source Mage and Gentoo boxes. -
Dude, OpenOffice Is Smooth (An Impress Review)Please note, it is first thing here in the central part of the US and my brain doesn't normally work as well. So, read at your own risk...
Until recently, I had been running Win2k on my Toshiba laptop due to a need for good presentation software (heck, when you work for the US Air Force, it is either Powerpoint or you don't do your job...). Well, the need to do some web/sql development pushed me to put Source Mage Linux on the ol' workhorse. Needless to say, I needed some presenation software.
Enter OpenOffice. I had looked at Koffice, but I didn't want to run a full blown desktop environment (currently, I am running X 4.2 with E) and the dependencies to get Koffice up were huge. I had read about OpenOffice and was pretty pumped that would be the solution. I had no idea.
As I said above, Powerpoint was my main concern, but to a lesser extent, Excel since I import a lot of spreadsheet activity into my presentation. So, I get OpenOffice installed and I pull out my last ppt file from a recent meeting and go to work. First thing I noticed is that it takes OpenOffice a while to start. I am not quite sure what to contribute this to, as my system is a Celery 650 with 192 meg of ram. Once it has been loaded, though, it appears to be cached since it starts very fast there after. Next, it loaded my Powerpoint file, something from Powerpoint 2000. It takes a little while, something that doesn't really surprise me since I have quite a few Excel tables imbedded in the show. After about 25 seconds, it is up.
The first thing I notice about the presentation is that it looks great! In presentation mode, the slides are clear and the text is even anti-aliased. Doing a side by side comparison with my XP machine, I was actually more impressed by the Impress display. Great job there. Next, I went to one of the many Excel objects and double clicked it. Boom, it loaded the Calc object in the presentation and I was able to edit the spreadsheet like Powerpoint/Excel. Too damn impressive.
What else do I like.... hmmmmm:- I like the fact that what ever OpenOffice app you are in, you can open up any document. Very cool
- My Word documents look as good in OpenOffice. Very nice.
- The desktop thing is gone. Thank God...
- I am sure there is more, but I have just started playing...