Slashdot Mirror

Turn your browsers to http://www.vim.org if you want an extensible, programmable VI editor. VIM stands for "VI iMproved", and it certainly is. With syntax and keyword highlighting, smart indenting, macros, piping and shell escapes, you've got almost everything you could possibly need in an editor without the overhead of the EmacsOS.

My personal preference reason for using VI is mode-based editing. It saves my poor pinky fingers from having to camp on the control keys. Even though I understand EmacsOS has a VI emulation mode (it really DOES do everything, including controlling your toaster and microwave), I'd rather use the Real Thing (tm). Since VIM gives me everything I desire from the Emacs programming environment, including a nice X/GTK front-end, I'll be able to avoid having to brush up on my Emacs knowledge for a little longer.

I've read that GVIM can be used as the default editor in VisualStudio.

Try looking here: http://www.vim.org/doc/if_ole.txt

Jeeez... what kind of link did I do?! ;)
Sorry!

VIM homepage here
---
Tip: Sick and tired of these tips? Type "set tips 0" any time.
> set tips 0
Error: Unknown option name "tips."

I use VIM (Vi IMproved) a lot... and I don't recognize your problems at all... maybe you should try VIM?

If you like Vi I think it could be worth it... gvim is also available if you want a GTK version...


---
Tip: Sick and tired of these tips? Type "set tips 0" any time.
> set tips 0
Error: Unknown option name "tips."

For me, I'd have to say being able to click on an identifier, press a keyboard shortcut, and get help on the identifier (what header file to include, etc.) is the biggest reason I use an IDE. I dunno, can you do that with emacs/vi?

I actually use VIM, not plain old vi. In VIM you can hit 'K' to do a "keyword lookup". By default this runs man on the keyword, but you can override that behaviour. The default works fairly well for standard C functions on a properly configured UNIX system. I don't use Emacs, but I suspect it supports something similar. I know Emacs also has an integrated "info" viewer for people who like that sort of thing... (I hate info myself)

You can also do a "ctags" lookup by hitting '^]' (ctrl-]) on a word. That's incredibly useful for internal functions (where often the only documentation is the inline comments). Plain vi supports ctags as well, and Emacs also has tags support. Both VIM and Emacs also have cscope support. (cscope is somewhat like ctags, but with multiple search types)

The best part about powerful programmer's editors like VIM and Emacs is that they're incredibly customizable. If your company/project has coding guidelines, you can often adjust settings or make mappings/bindings that encourage you to follow the guidelines. If there's some task you have to do over and over again, you can automate it. VIM lets you choose from it's own internal language (think "sed on steroids"), Python, Perl, and TCL. Emacs has elisp. Both can also easily call out to external programs.

I think you're completely missing the point here. While scripting arguably makes life easier for power users, it is pretty much useless for novice users. Shells, emacs and vi are nice if you already know what you're doing. Sit a computer newbie down at a login: prompt and give them the task of writing an email to their buddy in Australia, and you'll see (or not) just how necessary scripting is for a good user interface. I'd argue that one of the most basic needs for a good good user interface is for a user to immediately be able to identify the first step they need to take to perform a desired task.

Actually, I think you're missing the point. Experts are users too. For experts, a user interface should probably include scripting. Even newbies eventually get to the point where they would like to automate some tasks. The "Startup folder" idea is an extremely simplified type of automation.

And your assertion that "one of the most basic needs for a good good user interface is for a user to immediately be able to identify the first step they need to take to perform a desired task" doesn't always hold true. Compare Notepad to vi. Notepad meets your criteria. Does it have a better UI though? You'll probably argue that it does, but many will argue that it doesn't. The thing is, the better UI depends on the person. If you edit a text file once every couple of weeks, notepad is probably great. It gets the job done, and you can figure out where stuff is. But if you edit text files all day long every day, vi is probably better. Sure, it's got a steep learning curve, but it's worth it for those that need to edit text a lot.

It really comes down to whether you need a basic "I just need to do this simple job" UI, or an industrial strength UI. You simply can't make a simple UI for certain tasks, because these tasks are inherently complex. An F16 has a more complicated UI than a VW beetle, and for good reason. It does a lot more.

Of course, in the world of software, we're not restricted to static fixed UI's. Some programs are starting to offer both an easy UI and a powerful but complex UI in the same package. VIM is one example. The graphical version of VIM has menus and supports "point-and-click" operation. While in insert mode, it behaves quite a bit like an improved Notepad. But it's still got all of the normal vi features (and then some...). You can make mappings, and write scripts to do common tasks. You can even get it to behave almost identical to the original "plain ol' vi" if you like. The one big problem with VIM for newbies is that it starts up in "normal" mode (aka command mode, or "beep" mode).

function whine (excitement, disappointment, opinion) {

Ever since January 19th I've been waiting for a Crusoe-based product to be even announced as becoming available. And waiting.

Then there's this post on Slashdot which is truly disappointing: it's a rehash of Transmeta's site that is funded by the silly "find the ball under the cup" ads. Maybe it also has the "punch the &*^@%# monkey" ads, but I didn't wait around for them. No products, just bare chips. (Prototypes and mockup machines don't count since they're not for sale.)

*Sigh*

I'm starting to believe Transmeta didn't wait too long to announce its intentions (as some said initially) but rather announced way too soon.

• Mobile Linux isn't ready
• No products on the way to market

It's not that I wasn't impressed by the technology but it's that I want to buy a product.

} // end of function whine()

:-only kona in my cup-:
:-robert taylor-:

This software is free. If you feel a particular need to pay for it, give something to your favourite charity instead, since they need the money far more than I do.

The vim editor (vi improved), complete with its gvim graphical incarnation and its perl and python plug-ins.

• Most Improved Kernel Module: FreeBSD's Linux emulation module.

• Unsung Hero: In descending order:
  • Kirk McKusick, for his more than two decades of tireless service and personal sacrifices for our community.
  • Gurusamy Sarathy, Perl project release manager, responsible for bringing fork(2) to Microsoft ports of Perl and a million other things to make Perl code truly robust and portable between Microsoft and Unix platforms, a true Godsend for those of us forced to co-exist on both.
  • Malcolm Beattie, for trailblazing the Perl-to-C compiler, the Perl external byte-code interpreter, the first Perl/Tk implementation,threading in Perl, and safe blackbox compartments for mobile agents in Perl.

• Best Newbie Helper: Mike Stok from comp.lang.perl.misc. He is patient and kind, never chiding nor arrogant. He has been doing this job for many years.

• Most Deserving Open Source Charity: The Usenix Association. They don't take sides. They promote technology and open standards while remaining vendor neutral. They promote all aspects of advanced technology, but are especially supportive of open source solutions. No organization has done more to legitimize us over the last twenty-five years.

• Best Open Source Advocate: Larry Wall. He doesn't rant against anyone, tries to help everyone, and gives his code away for use by anyone, even Microsoft users. He doesn't restrict his good works to things that only benefit his friends. He doesn't preach, but lives by example.

• Best Unix Desktop Eyecandy: The newest version of the randomizing X screensaver. It's really great in a room full of people on acid.

• Best Unix Desktop Earcandy: The following entry in one's .Xdefaults file:

  *visualBell: on

• Best Desktop Theme: ShinyMetal

• Best Open Source-Related Book: In order of highest to lowest, all worthy of the award:
  • Writing Apache Modules with Perl and C by Lincoln Stein and Doug MacEachern.
  • Damian Conway's Object-Oriented Perl.
  • Elements of Programming With Perl by Andrew L. Johnson.

• Best Perl Module: Damian Conway's Class::Multimethods module for traditional OO in Perl.

• Best Apache Module: mod_perl; how can there be any question?

• Best Open Source Text Editor: The vim editor (vi improved), complete with its gvim graphical incarnation and its perl and python plug-ins.

• Best Deserving of a $2,000 Award:
  1. The late, great Rich Stevens's children's college fund
  2. Larry Wall's children's college fund
  3. Dennis Ritchie's retirement fund.
  (Perhaps those count as charities :-)

• Best Designed Interface in a Graphical Application:
  1. The eesh shell for controlling Enlightenment.
  2. The ddd debugger
  3. MacOS X's environment.

• Best Designed Interface in a Non-Graphical Application:
  1. The {Free,Open}BSD ports collection: being able to just cd and type make and have everything happen is the best thing that ever happened to third-parts apps.
  2. The make menuconfig directive for building Linux kernels.
  3. The v4.0 trn newsreader, with scoring and plug-ins.

• Best Dressed: Larry Wall, whether he's wearing Hawaiian shirts, tie-dies, or best of all, his outlandish, pastel-coloured tuxedos.

• Favorite Slashdot Comment Poster:
  1. Guy Harris
  2. Tom Christiansen
  3. Enoch Root
  4. Jay Maynard

• Favorite Slashdot Author: David Brin wins this one hands down.

• Best Slashdot Story of 1999: Eric Raymond's story about viruses on Microsoft vs Unix.

• Big Dumb Patent Bully: Amazon, followed by Unisys.

• Big Dumb Domain Bully: NSI, followed by Etoys.

• Clue Stick Award for FUD in Journalism: Slashdot.

Personally, I think it is vi (my favorite clone is vim).

I can see why people like emacs, but personally, I think it's too bloated for my taste.

vim has syntax highlighting for most any language, auto-indention, and other stuff. I just love using all the vim command mode commands. Like if I mistyped an entire word, I just bcw. Sure, there is something like it, which means that you have to leave the text panel. Esc is an exception, but you use it only when going in to command mode.

I *know* there is a vi workalike for emacs, but I just dont use those featubcwbells and whistles emacs offers me.

vim is what a text editor should have been. it edits text, and it's quick to use.

It's not a text editor with bloat, psychoanalysts, and the kitchen sink. We're just missing a login prompt and a boot loader for emacs to make it a complete operating system.

Remember, that these opinions are my own, and I'm in no way classifying emacs users as idiots. Feel free to be psychoanalysed in your text editor if that's your way of life, and you actually use a millionth of the features.

Actually, it's interesting that you mention that. All of the people I know personally who have wrist trouble are emacs users. I'm a VIM user myself, and I've never had wrist problems.

Chording is supposed to be pretty hard on the wrists. VI and its derivatives don't use chords for very many things, except for a few shifts, and a very small number of rarely used control keys.

A possible alternative to a vi-like editor would be to use emacs with "sticky keys". Knowing emacs, there's probably an elisp script that can turn that on for you. Then you's press (and release) each meta key before the key it modifies. So "C-x" would be 'control' followed by 'x'.

Or you could use one of the vi-modes for emacs... :-)

Why not just run Vim for Win32? It rocks.

ctags stopped cutting it when I moved from C to C++, and it's useless for Java

Exuberant ctags is far advanced over old ctags programs. The C support is much improved and C++ and Java support have been added and work like a charm. Works especially well in combination with Vim. If you don't like the way it handles Java, you can give JTags a try, but it's nowhere near as stable.

If you're doing Java development, you'll probably also want to use Jikes, as it integrates very nicely with QuickFix mode in Vim and make mode in Emacs. There's also a Jikes Debugger java debugger, but I've not used it.

a decent code beautifier, since indent doesn't work right for Java

jsbeautifier is one of many -- a search I did a few months ago turned up 10 or 12 beautifiers for Java, and even more for other languages.

Of course, if you want a good graphical debugger then ddd is the way to go -- it lets you get to the gdb command line if need be.

Sumner

i agree, i just started a winnt project using msdev. My first order of biz was to download
cygnus cygwin and vim for nt.
I then bought a book called "MFC Programming from the Ground Up" which goes though mfc basics with out any ide.


Its quite empowering developing mfc code using vi/bash and NOT using the "class lizard" to break/hack/comment up my code..and cripple my mind...and i know in the end ill have an intimate knowledge of mfc... for what its worth..that is...... because hopefully someday soon gtk/qt will be the primary gui toolkit for nt/unix/mac!!

-greg

Oh, and a regular text-editor of course.. like vim or emacs or heck, edlin, whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy..

There is no easy way to make webpages that rock, except copy/paste. (Which incedentally is what htmlpp is good at :-)

Can't help but laugh at the paperless goals.

I know I waste more paper printing "backup" copies of my documents than any paper forms I fill out; I've lost too many documents to system instability and file corruption than I care to remember.

Thank goodness there's a Windoze version of Vim and plenty of Linux workstations I can telnet into for any coding endeavours...

Because no two people could ever possibly agree on the final goal. Everyone has a different opinion about how a word processor should work.

The whole point of freedom is choice. If there aren't choices, how free are you? If everyone worked together on one word processor, there'd be only one word processor, and no choice.

Me? I use vim. But I don't expect everyone else to follow me. Use what you like, or if you don't like what's available, write your own. :-)

Your gvim suggestion is excellent. The latest version is 5.3. Get more info.

I only use Word for official reports. Everything else is done in VIM.

Feel the power of VIM.

~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"