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TWINE - Wine and Twin converge
mecca
writes "CodeWeavers has announced they are in the process of
merging the Willows TWIN code and
Wine code in order to help port Windows software."
Interestingly this project is being spear-headed by
Rob Farnum, the key architect of Twin. The resulting code will
be under the LGPL (Twin is LGPL'd, Wine is BSD'd. So the LGPL
wins).It would appear that the
Wine guys are cool with this.
Some
Twine code is available now, and more should come soon.
Codeweavers is offering employment including to people who don't want to move to
cold Minnesota.
How well does Twin compare to Wine?
I was going to note how odd it is seeing BP with first post.
Then I realized that if you aren't contributing anything besides lip-flapping, you've got plenty of time on your hands.
And no, there's no need to note the irony of me having time to respond.
What about the Corel Office Suite? Corel was going to use Wine to port the Office Suite to Linux. If (T)Wine is LGPL'ed, then they'll have to release object files for the Office Suite so that it can be re-linked, right? Not that I think this would be a bad thing, I'm just wondering whether this might affect Corel's plans. Thoughts?
AC!!
no not lip-flapping BP used a form.
You microsloth lusers are so funny... can't even ;) :)
troll correctly when trying to put a link to microsloth. and you haven't seen my amazing pickup line which gets girls on me like mad: hey baby, wanna see my free open source code?
oh yeah and since you can get linux with state-of-the-art software for free that kinda takes the wind out of any real claim this troll might have. cheerios, get open and maybe you could get girls and not troll us with your frustrations
But it is still a whole heck of a lot cheaper than the Silly-Con Valley, which is why I'm moving back to The Tundra in the next month.
$450k for a 1100 square foot 40 year old tract home in Mt. View. No basement and no real yard to speak of either. No thanks.
Okay, I'm clueless, but this is the first I've heard of TWIN. Their webpage looks like they're doing mor or less the same thing as WINE. So, what's the difference? Is TWIN as low-profile as I think?
Minnesota is not as cold as you think and as long as people in warm areas keep pushing for less environmental protections, Minnesota will soon become a paradise, temperature wise. We also have nice extras like a shopping mall larger than Moscow's Red Square, and a museum devoted to the uses of electricity (think electro-shock) in medicine. What more could you ask for?
-Eric F-J (too impatient to await my slashdot password)
great news, really great news. Both worlds will
have their goal, commercial developers can link
with TWine without restrictions (LGPL), and the
code will stay free and Microsoft cannot extend
it in it's own secret way (LGPL).
Sure, whatever Bruce. Got any licence agreements to
throw around? Maybe some condemnations..who knows,
some of the dreaded KDE people might be working on the
TWIN or WINE team! Ohh! Horrors! Not KDE! KDE is a
moral affront to all wannabe free software Don Quixotes!
Quick, where's my footprint T-Shirt?!
(Proudly posted with....KFM! Haah! Ooh does it make your
skin crawl bruce? I hope so. Had your gnome panel
crash lately? heh heh heh...1.0 my ass...).
TWIN is a true emulator, that's the idea. It could theoretically be used to run x86 applications on non-x86 hosts. In practice, I don't know how well it works.
Does that mean you download and install a twine ball?
over 18months ago i tried WINE, and well, it cored and i thought, gee what waste of a download + compile so, rm -r that .
Then I tried TWIN willows emu and it ran Mirc 100%, all buttons/etc worked. That was proof enough that it was ahead of wine.
This is a GoodThing TM
-CB
Although occasionally you end up with a 2 hour commute due to snow and morons, like tonight. Other than that, cool place to be. Music scene will always be ahead of any other area in the US. And Summit beer, who could forget that? Oh, and the rest of the state is far better than the cities, if you ask me (i'm a small-town freak, though).
Ironic, huh? WINE developers and users loose the freedom to incorporate parts of the software in non-GPL projects, but will be adding "WINE is free software" to all the copyright statements.
The virus spreads - along with the spread of Orwellian thought and speech.
Like _your_ opinion matters, if you were anyone important, you probably wouldn't talk about stuff you know nothing about, and probably wouldn't be using KDE. Nothing against KDE itself, but it's usually run by linux-wannabes.
heh
andym
What oh, so wise words from someone demonstrating ignorance as to what the LGPL even *is*.. Hint: The whole point of the LGPL was to allow proprietary software to use it.
Regarding your "Orwellian" reference, Orwell wrote of the government extinguishing the "Freedom" form of the word "Free". Not to mention that the big brothers eyes are watching from the non-gpl'd stuff. Logical Inconsistency, anyone?
Yep. In the sense of "vaccination". Anyone who uses a "I'll open my legs for anyone" license deserves to get screwed.
The intent is that we retain rights to anything that we develop, so that we can put it back into Wine. If we don't retain the rights, it has to stay LGPL, and Wine can't have it,
without 'infecting' the Wine tree.
So, it's free, even what we're doing,
we're just making sure we can share with Wine.
Oh and what a music seen it is.
Having grown up in Detroit (has been music scene of the century) I can't believe how awsome some of the local Twin Cities bands are.
NORM SUCKS!!!!
yea but the extra bandwith shure speeds up large downloads.
JESSE RULES!!! (it's a Minnesota thing)
I think you've got this Linux thing wrong...
Does this mean that slashdot will need a new logo for twine topics?
Any takers?
no, MS _forking_ competing open-source products.
as noticed by the Halloween authors, the GPL/LGPL
is a superior 'new generation' software license
because it prevents forking. 'fork and conquer'
Yes, GPL and the like sucks.
The BSD license is much better.
As crash prone and poorly designed as Microsoft Windows is, working with it does give me one perk I don't get with Linux.
With MS Windows, at least I get to work with ADULTS. You should try it sometime.
The Norm I was referring to wasn't Coleman, in case that's what you might have thought, but Green(e?), that bastard that moved the Stars to a state that doesn't deserve a hockey team.
Isn't TWINE the acronym (and unofficial internet abbreviation) for the next James Bond flick?
To quote the LGPL:
A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and therefore falls outside the scope of this License...
This wording was designed so that proprietary or non-GPL-but-still-Free software could link statically to an LGPL library by distributing the object modules. An executable file already statically linked would not qualify for this term, and falls under Section 6.
My understanding is that a dynamic executable has not yet been linked by the terms of the license, but instead is linked at runtime (with ld.so or some other mechanism), so the dynamic executable still qualifies as a "work that uses the Library" per this section, and so it can be distributed directly without object modules.
All this assumes that the object module or dynamic executable doesn't still become a "derived work" by the vague explanation later in section 5.
The wording was carefully arranged so that you can update or modify the LGPL part of the work, while keeping the API intact, and still be able to have a working executable. Dynamic executables allow this without including the object modules.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
Mirc is most definitely not a Good Thing.
Someone posting illiterately as an AC who actually expects to be taken seriously when he accuses others of being "wannabes". How did you get in here, sonny? Didn't Rob card you? Or did you tell him you were looking for your daddy?
Craig
Wrong. You can release your executable any way you want, but if you make any changes to the library source they must be publicly available, a la GPL.
Libc is LGPL, for example, and every available Linux executable (including Applix, Netscape 4, StarOffice, etc.) is linked against it.
Craig
which is a bad thing, not a good thing. Far too many people have figgue this out, which means that I can't live on a 100 acre farm for dirt cheep.
anyone know if I can get a good job in Montana, someplace that Isn't so crowded, but still has good fishing, wide open space, and not far from a good job.
It's been pretty nice today, plus the three for four inches of snow that's fallen today has put a nice coat of white on everything.
I've only heard about 2 roads being closed, so it's a pretty small storm.
What part of SD is known as Silicon Prairie? Is this a term that someone made up since I moved from there in '95? I know Gateway was located in N. Sioux City, but calling that Silicon Prairie sounds kinda lame to me. I'd rather be working here.
I don't mind the cold, either. It's not as bad as people seem to think. What I think is really funny is seeing people in the South practically wearing parkas in the winter when it's maybe 30-32 degrees F. That's about the time I zip up my windbreaker.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I used to work there, and it was something cooler than ERDAS. The pay wasn't great, but it has some neat projects to work on. Too bad the wife doesn't view cool projects & hardware as an important part of work. =(
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
No doubt. I've never really had a problem with the cold. I actually miss the cold now that I'm here in chicago. As for the cost of living, I still buy a ton of crap when I go home because its about the cheapest place you can live in America. And at least during the summer it isn't 80 bazillion degrees.
My Slashdot account is old enough to drink...
WINE is more than a binary emulator, it too is a library to allow porting of Windows sources. That's the intened usage for Corel's future WINE-based projects.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I doubt WINE is going to change their license based on what TWINE does. TWINE is a seperate product which will use code from WINE, correct?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Although anyway Corel may stick to their decision to use WINE, rather than switching to Twine.
After 12 inches of snow, I had to "hack" my way out of my driveway this morning in MN. Clean air, low cost of living etc. make MN full of benefits, just like Linux. Also, just like Linux, there are hardships, but some of us are weather and environment hackers, sub-zero cyclists, etc. who enjoy the challenge and the rewards of living here.
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I was testing a new DSL when I got first post. I'm going to serve some nice free software sites off of it. I bet you won't like that either.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
How exactly does one become a linux-wannabe? I thought the point of running linux was to run an open source, fast, reliable OS you can modify, not to be cool. Personally I am currently running KDE, because I think it's a neat project (and would like to develop some apps for it if I get the time), but I've also used fvwm, mwm, twm, olwm, olvwm, afterstep, qvwm, windowmaker, ect. However, I'll admit the original guy was a wanker, but that shouldn't reflect upon all KDE users. In general, many KDE users do tend to be newer to unix than a lot of people, but that isn't a bad thing. As long as the support structure is in place where more expirienced unix people offer assistence, KDE could very well be unixes best chance to bring people to a desktop unix system, and to bring a desktop unix system to people (not necessarily the same thing).
MS extending products meant to migrate people away from MS OSes? That would be great in my opinion, but it ain't going to happen.
Yes, but what if a company or a group acting under a BSD-style license wanted to make an emulator for some MS API in the future (Win64?), and wanted to grab say half the source from wine and do the rest themselves. Well, with a LGPL license they wouldn't, and thus the unix world would loose a valuable piece of software.
So they fork. So what. If it is an open source product who cares who's leading the charge? If it is a commercial product as would be allowed by the BSD-style license of wine, in the short term the commercail product might draw more people to linux, and in the long term the open source product will win out do to the superiority of the development model.
I think that the purpose of putting the code into the Wine code base first is so that Wine can continue to keep its old license. Wine code CAN be used in (L)GPL projects, but (L)GPL code cannot be used in wine. Therefore, to keep both projects moving, a developer needs to fix wine problems in the wine source itself first (under the wine license) and then move it to the TWINE project, where the it gets rebranded as LGPL.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Twin was originally designed as a tool to source-port Windows applications to Other OSes (like Linux and the Mac). Working binary emulation I think is more of a secondary goal, but there is an x86 emulator in the Twin sources. Wine, if I understand correctly, is only a binary emulator, and only runs on machines that can natively run x86 machine code.
Cold? What's that? I've got -3C currently in Mankato, barometer at 760mm, and snow's been piling up nicely all day. The Cities were getting an inch per hour earlier today. . . but it was downright balmy earlier this week. This winter was really tame. Anyone who complains about the temperature is a wee pansy. :)
.I'll probably be stuck in that bland suburban expanse--Bloomington.
I think it would be pretty keen to have a job in Minneapolis, it's a fun city (go T-Wolves!). .
I'd like to work THERE as well. You'd probably get to play with ERDAS Imagine or something even cooler. Landsat 7 in July! Whee!
Hmmm, I read some antiquated information. The official website says March/April. That's even sooner. :)
quick someone point a microwave generator at his head before he says something so inane that
it causes a rippling effect and collapse's the universe.
Morons should never be allowed to breed. This
fscking retard is proof of that.
I still like:
"Hey, baby, what's your cosine?"
The general "Open Free Software Hippie" movement is a breadth-first solution. Although it's cool that these projects are working together, fragmentation is often a feature, not a bug.
An Object at rest CANNOT BE STOPPED! -The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
Nice one man, that AC kiddie just can't keep up with ya. :)
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I for one am damn glad to hear that these two forces are getting together and cooperating on this project. Linux may have a lot of cool apps, but it seems too often that there are multiple teams doing the same thing. Why do we need 20 different word processors when the authors could get together and make one kick-ass one that would dwarf word perfect or M$Word? It's too bad the Gnome and KDE teams haven't cooperated like this...
-"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -EH
Why shouldn't Linux get a crack at the same competition and refinement that Windows had some years ago?
I remember some ages-past article about "The Dueling Suites" in PC Computing which actually compared Office with SmartSuite and Corel (who's that?) Of course, MS won the top reviews throughout the article with strong wording, "hands down" or something similar.
Microsoft sycophants they may have been, but I personally feel that Word was a stronger product at the time, with a cleaner interface, more customizable, and easier to use. I know there's probably going to be someone posting a reply about "I loved SmartSuite, still use it even though corporate's gone office" or something, but I still feel that Office improved faster than its competitiors. Just like how MS whipped its programmers into making IE faster than Netscape.
Word, having overtaken Wordperfect and Ami Pro, went on to become the virus it is today.
Microsoft would not have done half the refinement and improvement they put into Word were there no competition from Lotus and Wordperfect - Borland - Corel.
For now, it's usability and basic features that drive the development of KOffice, AbiWord, lyx, etc. but I think that ego and a quest for popularity would be good for driving future enhancements.
Besides, multiple word processors leaves open the possiblity that they will fill different niches, instead of emulating Word's one-bloat-fits-all approach.
What is wrong with a good GUI? Just because someone likes a desktop environment that lifts some ideas from Microsoft, it doesn't make them any less intelligent, knowledgable, or "real".
Now, the charge is often levelled that a CLI is more flexible, and thus is more powerful in the hands of a knowledgable user. I agree with that, completely. However I feel that a knowledgable user's time is best spent on useful things, not routine ones. A GUI can be quite useful and time-saving for mundane, ordinary tasks.
Clicking on a modem in my task bar and hitting "connect" is simple, as anything I do 10 times a day *should* be. (my isp is quite unreliable at times). Same with opening netscape --geometry blah --no-about-splash, and reading/replying to email. Routine, easy tasks, that are convenient to do with mouse clicks.
A GUI can also make powerful, complicated features of CLI software easier to access, too. rpm managers, and other frontends are nice things to have in a gui.
Perhaps much of the GUI frustration comes from ex-Windows users, or those who have to try to administrate NT for a living. To these people I say that KDE is not attempting to replace the command line.
KDE is not a budding Win32, trying to shield you from a command line. Nothing about KDE prevents you from popping a konsole (or kvt if you prefer) and doing whatever it is that doesn't work in gui form. KDE is just a way of making GUI-capable things even easier.
there is alot of coperation between KDE and Gnome and people help each other out but in a differant way its like
how shall we do this ? is that the best way ?
then they tend to go off write code and then look at what each other has done !
this is a cool way to go about things two free desktops its got to be good !
and why do we need 20 differant word processors well dont you hate it when word **** yeah well thats why people like differant things and whatch the kde office and soon a gnome port im sure this is what M$ are afraid of and rightly so
vi for those terminals and editing scripts
emacs for programing
and something else (corel) for WP thats me what about you ?
differant I bet thats why their are 20 because we can Have choice !!!!!!!!!!!!
freedom thats what its about people are diffrent every machine should not be the same !
It's timing, it's all a matter of timing. Someday I'm gonna dial up at 1200 using my old Anchor modem and get first post running lynx, just to prove it can be done. Otherwise, though, you'll pry the Cisco 675 out of my cold, dead fingers.
:)
I've noticed that a lot of the net goes just as fast (slow) as it did before I got DSL. But it's
a lot easier to tell who's sitting next to an OC3 now
========
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
Yeah, if it gets warm enough you can get an NHL team in Minneapolis again just like Dallas...
========
Tweet!! Two minutes for obstruction SYN flooding!
========
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
Because no two people could ever possibly agree on the final goal. Everyone has a different opinion about how a word processor should work.
The whole point of freedom is choice. If there aren't choices, how free are you? If everyone worked together on one word processor, there'd be only one word processor, and no choice.
Me? I use vim. But I don't expect everyone else to follow me. Use what you like, or if you don't like what's available, write your own. :-)
People don't realize how many tehnical companies are up around these parts: and I will kick anyone's ass who says this town is cold-- as soon as I get my tongue removed from this flag-pole... But seriously: There are a lot of hi-tech companies around here: Seagate, Digi International, SGI, Comtrol, and of course IBM (Rochester, MN). South Dakota had the "Silicon Prairie," we have the "Technical Tundra." I'm going out for ice-cream... -AP (Minnetonka, MN) [Min-uh-TONG-ka]
The glorious meept would like to point you all the a website which has some windows emulators which cost no more than an expensive linux distribution, but at the same time , make you more attractive to women. Even the pretty ones: here
In the TWINE FAQ, in lists the following liabilities to the wine project:
Later in the FAQ:
- Although the Twine project is an open source project, with limited CVS write access, we ask all Twine developers to never modify Wine code within Twine. Instead, we prefer that all work on Wine modules be done directly within the confines of the Wine project. That way, any efforts we make within Twine are immediately shared with the Wine project, and no licenses are violated.
- Further, CodeWeavers is retaining all rights to new code written for use in Twine. This means that we will be able to release that code under the Wine license.
Those last two paragraphs case me to hesitate -- what's really free/open source here?More fundamentally, in terms of the broad Linux movement, wouldn't it make more sense for the majority of us Linux C++ programmers to focus our efforts on creating/finishing a completely OpenSource tool which could port the Win32 API's and the MFC to Linux compatible source code?
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Makes sense. Thanks for the clarifications.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
I think i'm going to be intoxicated.. =>
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
TWINE - The World Is Not Enough
November 19, 1999
Look out honey, 'cause I'm using technology; Ain't got time to make no apology
They could grab the source from Wine which has a BSD-style license. See the GNU web site for an important difference between a BSD-style license and *the* BSD license. They just couldn't do so for Twine or Twin, which are LGPL'd. Even so, the LGPL is pretty liberal, more so than the GPL, and only covers the particular library you're working on. Proprietary code may still be linked against it. Many people would not have a problem using LGPL.
KDE is pretty much the realization of the vision I had for Linux some time ago: providing a flexible, powerful GUI environment for those who want or think they need it, and the legendary CLI for those who prefer that approach, making each one removable. Because of Linux's modular, keep-it-simple philosophy, it is able to do this very well. Unlike some other OS's who feel the need to integrate everything under the sun...
;_;
What I DON'T want to see is the vast majority of Linux applications becoming dependent on KDE or GNOME. I'm short on hard disk space right now and so can't run either
No, there are not a lot of hi-tech companies around here, especially if you're looking to write code. Seagate is big, but SGI just has the old Cray division here. Not sure about Digi. Other than that, we have Secure Computing and Control Data and lots of little guys .
Dave Beal, who covers business news for the Pioneer Press, for a while did a weekly column about MN's tech companies. He did Secure, SGI, Net Perceptions, and a couple others and then gave it up, because there just weren't any more, unless you want to write about the three hackers holed up in a garage in Eden Prairie.
High taxes and lousy weather (although it grows on ya) don't make much of a combo.