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You haven't been watching Adobe if you think Microsoft is doing this just to compete with Flash. Adobe is planning on turning Flash into a complete OS-independent application delivery platform. (The Adobe rep insisted this included Linux when asked.)

The best example of a similar technology is Java Web Start. Adobe has the install base to push a new version of Flash to enough end users to get a large enough user base to really try something like this. Continuing the analogy with Java, Flash currently fills the Java Applet niche, and Adobe wants to move into the Java Web Start niche.

Microsoft wants that market, which is the point behind XAML and other technologies. Silverlight is simply Microsoft firing back at Adobe. They both see a future in rich applications delivered over the web, and are both competing for that market. Silverlight is just one part of that - both hope to get web developers hooked on their platform, to support their rich application delivery framework.

Since that's the point, you can expect Microsoft to support cross-platform Silverlight as long as Adobe supports cross-platform Flash. They're both hoping to slide into a new market using Flash-like technology.

"Sometimes I think it might make more sense to make a browser-like framework for programs, but built from the ground up for applications instead of static pages."

That is/has been the promise of technologies like XAML and XUL.

Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/

I've built a lot of web pages, and this has made me realize that it's incredibly quick and easy to whip up GUIs with HTML. The experience was much better than with the GUI builders I had used, and certainly beat coding GUIs by hand.

Of course, HTML is not intended as a language for describing native GUIs, so it has some limitations there. Fortunately, there is a variety of XML formats for describing real GUIs.

What makes XML so great for describing GUIs is that it's so good at describing nested objects. If you think about it, that's exactly what GUIs are: you've got your windows, with a bunch of widgets in it, one of which is a scrollable area with more widgets in it, etc. This is naturally described by an XML tree that contains all these widgets, with some attributes used for connecting them to the application; e.g. ids to allow the application to reference widgets, and embedded code to let the GUI respond to events (e.g. HTML's onclick).

Where many XML GUI languages fall short is in that they don't provide methods for building new abstractions. If you have a lot of subtrees that are all very similar (say, a frame, a title, a content window, and a hide and a show button), you'll completely have to code each of them in full. Any programming language worth its salt will provide a way to abstract over this (functions!), but I think the realization that XML GUI descriptions (and HTML documents!) are programs hasn't fully set in yet.

Next time I'm coding a GUI, I'll be generating the XML from a proper programming language. I've had good results with Lisp before...

This is EXACTLY what Microsoft is trying to do with XAML
XAML is a XML-based language for describing visual user interfaces, such as those created by Macromedia Flash - other similar technologies are XUL and UIML. The difference is that M$ is also cooking in the capability of PDF, Workflow, and SVG all into XAML.
Vista is based of the new 'Windows Presentation Foundation', which uses XAML at the core, so they will be able to replace PDF, Flash, and SVG all in one fell swoop. Microsoft is even branding it '.NET 3.0' - to get the developers to use it as a complete 'Application platform'

The suit is against Microsoft's infringement of Eolas patent on the embedding objects inside of HTML pages... It affects Macromedia Flash, QuickTime, RealOne Player, Acrobat Reader, Sun's Java Virtual Machine, and Windows Media Player among other applications that embed into Web pages.

It only affects IE as Eolas has only filed their suit against Microsoft. Mozilla, Linux, OS-X, and any other OS or browser capable of rendering pages with this content are also going to be in violation of this patent. If Eolas is successful and defeats Microsoft's appeal against the suit, there will be nothing to stop them going after others in violation of this suit....

No doubt your tune will suddenly turn around then....

This suit is really only going to serve Microsoft's interests as it will further complicate and hamper those who would push a world connected by HTML. Something Microsoft is not really that interested in, with the rise of Google they'd really like to see HTML suffer and die and be replaced by their own XAML markup language. Google is heading down the same path looking to create their own browser, based on an extended version of HTML.

According to Xaml.Net, Xaml is like Flash using XML on the NEXT .Net plaform. WinFx will be ported back to WinXP, but to _really_ use it, you need the next Windows OS (Vista?) Also, XAML has a document format like PDF, Rich Internet applications like AJAX and Xforms, Vector graphics like SVG, and Workflow, so that you can write whole applications using a application design tool and not writing explict code. Maybe it is trying to do everything and may not do one thing well. Of couse - tham might happen with FLASH if PDF is embedded with it.

I'm pretty sure the next generation of Windows Forms applications is going to support XML and XSL designed windows forms. I believe it's called xaml, and the link for it is here: http://www.xaml.net/ Basically it should allow developers to use a photoshop-like tool to graphically design form elements, and it will produce a markup that you can use in windows applications. I suppose it would be trivial to build an application extension that let you load custom xaml on the fly in an app.

In that sense, it wouldn't be that hard programmatically to change the look and feel of an interface. Also, it might bring windowing environment designers closer to HTML designers; since HTML is a form of XML

Does it work on Linux?

Is XAML the one (proprietary) format to rule them all?

What I am was working on now was exactly the "Common Controls" bullet for SVG in this chart.

"Is there the need for yet another XML format when for describing vectorial web interfaces SVG does a very good job?"

You don't really get it, do you?

XAML != Proprietary SVG

"Overall, basic SVG is good. This is why it is successful for mobile applications and why Microsoft has used it in WPF. But, if you are looking for building full blown, high-end graphics intensive applications using XML based graphics, SVG will not serve you."

http://www.xaml.net/

http://www.xaml.net/images/comparisonchart.JPG

"Is there the need for yet another XML format when for describing vectorial web interfaces SVG does a very good job?"

You don't really get it, do you?

XAML != Proprietary SVG

"Overall, basic SVG is good. This is why it is successful for mobile applications and why Microsoft has used it in WPF. But, if you are looking for building full blown, high-end graphics intensive applications using XML based graphics, SVG will not serve you."

http://www.xaml.net/

http://www.xaml.net/images/comparisonchart.JPG

I am sorry, but it does not seem that the presenters know what they are talking about.
Xaml is NOT the same as XUL. It is Microsoft trying to keep everyone using .NET and thus Windows
Also XaMLaN is the exact opposite of true Xaml - it converts C# code to FLASH.
I have programmed in XAML for months, and it really is just another abstraction layer - sort of a way to build applications like a Web AND like a rich GUI
You can do this today with some free frameworks out there - this just has a standard method for managing state and page history for Windows Apps, and also allows more responsive web apps.
Microsoft is also trying to add AJAX for the nice JavaScript drive apps, but it probably will not ship with the Vista.
Mind you - I would still have love to go and see this conference...... To meet the presenters, not to partake of any extra curricular activities in the Netherlands. :)

In TFA, it mentions that rich internet applications are one programming model, and compares Macromedia Flash with Microsoft Vista.
Vista is the platform OS.
The new technology that Microsoft has to compete with Flash in XAML Is XAML a functional language? It seems to me just another markup like XUL

Microsoft is worried, which is why they are producing XAML, an XML killer.

What needs to happen is a few really interesting XUL application to be written, then for an IE plugin to be developed that lets IE run XUL apps (essentially replacing the IE rendering engine with XUL). That may already have been done.

lately I've been hearing alot about this horrible upcoming MS thing called XAML - and (quoting a nameless slashdotter) how it's akin to VB crack for its power and ease of use.

I could be wrong, but I think many people have overlooked that the kind of pervasive scary crap is already here, and it has been here for awhile now.
While I love Java and use it heavily, I admit that Flash is more ubiquitious it runs on almost every major OS and browser. Delivers more on the write once run anywhere.
-Flash is extremely fast and easy to install. it's literally point and click. I don't even think the player is even a 1mb...
-Flash is extremely easy to learn and use: my female, graphic designer cousin who hates anything "technical and dorky" makes flash apps all the time; hell most of flash dev is visual drag and drop
-Flash is getting more powerful by the minute: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/flashpro/ development/
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/flashpro/ video/
http://www.macromedia.com/software/central/

The competition will be with XAML, .NET Zero Deployment and the likes om them. The initiative described in the article is probably good and all, and I seriously hope they do make it into something. But make no mistake - MS has been working long and hard on getting stuff that blurs the line between web and local pages (or apps, if you prefer that name), and some of it works just fine (.NET Zero Deployment is a good example here). Soon enough, there will be no browser war because the browser will not be as essential as it is today. It still is, though - and that's why I use Firefox whenever I can :-)
Seriously, running richer and richer "weblets" (for lack of a better technology-neutral term) on your local machine, feeding them with remote data and making it all flexible and (hopefully) secure, is a trend that's been going on for YEARS now. A lot of us would like this to feature open standards, open source and other such goodness, but we need to take a long, hard look at the initiatives from MS - their market dominance means that THEIR standards will become a reality.

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