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"? Nope, "Godless commies" (appeal to fear/ignorance). "

Fear ? True.
But ignorance? These "Godless commies" were (and in some cases still are) responsible for oceans of human misery and only idiot would call fear of them "ignorance".

Communist environmental degradation.... federal hydro-electric dams.... same thing, huh? I mean, environmentally friendly power sources couldn't POSSIBLY influence the level of water in such a small sea, right?

Oh, and the biggest polluter on the planet is still the US, which, at last check, isn't Communist, and produces ~6,503,800,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas yearly (as of 1997). China places second, of course, with ~4,964,800,000 tonnes and Russia (fourth, after India) produces ~1,980,300,000, although it is no longer Communist (amazing, huh?). Of course, these numbers alone don't suggest much, unless one considers the per person emissions. US: 24.3 tonnes. China: 4.0 tonnes. Russia: 13.4 tonnes. In fact, out of the top 10 polluters, China has the second lowest per-capita pollution level, falling behind India at 2.2 tonnes. Seems these Communist countries aren't faring so badly after all, huh?

Oh, and since when have all "commies" been Godless? The one thing I hate more than senselessly blaming others for off-topic issues are false generalizations. Last I checked, most major religions tend to encourage equality of some form or another, and is not Communism based on the hope for pure equality?

Last I checked there were more Godless capitalists worldwide than Godless communists, by simple virtue of there being far more capitalists.

You'd think that at a web site devoted to computers, nerds and logic, we would be immune to fellatious arguments

Nope, your post disabused me of that notion.

I expect the green factions on Slashdot (oddly enough, they overlap with the Communist factions, and if you can name a greater despoiler of the environment than the Godless commies, name one, cf. the Caspian Sea has shrunk in half due to Communist environmental degradation and water diversion

Wow, that's such a list of logical fallacies, I can't pick which one to point out first. Let's start with the straw-man:

"green factions" "overlap with the Communist factions"? Ok, you don't support this thesis, but there, you've made the statement. Not having backed it up, you will of course refrain from using it as the foundation for futher argument, and get to your original point? Nope, "Godless commies" (appeal to fear/ignorance). "despoiler of the environment"... gee, Dr Potter, are all Godless commies despoilers of the environment? That must mean that all "green factions" are commie, tree-burners too, right? Strawman: 0, Slashdot: 1

will soon be out in force declaring man to be the most heinuos figure of environmental disaster

Strawman #2

instead of our Lord's crown of creation

Offtopic, and unsupported, but ignorable.

If it was up to those greenies

Insults are hardly a form of logical debate, but we're going for "fellatious arguments based on emotion" here, aren't we?

the human population would be 100 million, and we'd live in huts eating soybeans.

Irrational and unsupported strawman #3. I love this guy! What it must be like to be totally unfettered by reason....

The post goes on to posit that Native Americans, given guns would have wiped out the bison herds... Of course, no supporting evidence is given, so I can't really debate the point.

Can someone please mod the original post down a tad?

--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)

and if you can name a greater despoiler of the environment than the Godless commies, name one, cf. the Caspian Sea has shrunk in half due to Communist environmental degradation and water diversion

I believe you mean the Aral sea, which has shrunk in size due to the diversion of the Syr Darya and Amu Darya river for cotton agriculture.

While authoritarianism in its various forms is particular prone to environmental abuse, the Aral disaster is more due to the unique nature of the place than a divine punishment of an evil economic system. The Aral is a landlocked lake in an arid region, and is fed by two major rivers that are the only source of water in the region.

I've exactly seen the same practices in captialist countries, it's just that the impact is different because the geography is different. For example, I've personally leaped over the Rio Copiopo of northern Chile where it meets the sea -- it starts as a good sized river in the mountains and it ends up about two meters wide and 3 cm deep. If there were a landlocked lake that was fed by this river, it would be gone. The difference is that it empties into the Pacific.

What about the mighty Colorado? What if that emptied into a lake instead of the Pacific? It's hard to believe that if the Aral were in the US or any other capitalist country, it would be much better.

Capitalist countries have their own litany of environmental disasters: soil salinification in Australia, mass forest die offs in Europe, eutrophication or sterilization of lakes in North America, and so on. This is not a value judgement about Capitalism, just an simple observation. Planned economies stick people in a cycle of environmental misery from which they cannot escape, because of the general low level of development and adaptability in the economy ties them to the land. Capital nimbly redeploys itself so that as an investor I am blissfully insulated from the "bads" that my investments creates.

So capitalism is better for people, in the short run, in that it provides them with ways to route around environmental damage.

It doesn't mean we have to live this way. We don't have to catch the last two cod in the sea. We don't have to leave toxic waste ponds behind our gold mining operations. We are not unthinking animals. However, there are two kinds of positions to take in this debate. The first kind is taken by those who see an intrinsic value in nature and want to preserve it to some degree by regulating the actions of the market. These shade from moderates like myself to environmental extremists who would consider me no better than the worst of the lot. On the other hand there are those who believe there is no value other than what can be assigned by current market prices, and thus for whom any kind of regulation or limitation on environmental impacts is simply an irrational, unwarranted interference in the workings of a system which by definition is perfect.

There are axiomatic differences between these camps, and thus in the final analysis not much basis for rational discourse between them. So, we must fight.

You'd think that at a web site devoted to computers, nerds and logic, we would be immune to fellatious [sic] arguments based on emotion instead of logic, but you'd be wrong.

People who don't recognize the force of emotion in their arguments are doomed to be its unwitting slaves. I've never seen anybody who claims to be ultra-logical who actually puts down his axioms and produces theorems from them in a formal and correct way. Instead, they use the term 'logic' as a content-less emotional blugeon to dismiss people who weight evidence differently from them or disagree with their values. These are the people who are so blinded by their emotions they mistake their subjective preferences for objective reality.

"a tool of the Godless in their purge of Christianity."

about time, considering you sheep have been purging other religions for thousands of years... God died in the 80's, get over it

Jaysyn

How exactly is this +3 informative?
I know the rule about modding up stuff that adds to the discussion, and not if you necesarily agree with it, but come on, people.

I'd like to forward my own theory.

The Native Americans were beamed in here from the third moon of the planet Lothax, third planet in a star system 55 light years away. They arrived in the year 1996, but the reason why we believe they were here so much longer was that, working with the Godless Liberals, they devised a scheme where a mind-controlling memory chip was implanted in the mind of every person on earth, which contained false memories of the Native Americans being on earth for years and years. Implanted memories, like in Total Recall (where do you think Arnold got the idea from?)It's just an elaborate plan to make Honey Nut Cheerios sell better, since they are the main export of the planet Lothax.

The reason I know this is my brother's best friend's uncle's dogwalker's hairdresser used to live next door to the guy who mowed Arnold's lawn.
Do I have any other proof? Of course not.

Now lets see if this one gets modded up to +3 informative.

-Johnny 5000

We know about evolution, dinosaurs, the big-bang et al.

And how do we "know" indeed? Yes, that's right, because you've been told so! And who by? The liberals in charge of "educating" our young, that have made it impossible to have decent Christian teachings taught in schools because it would let people see the lies they have wrought throughout our society!

Creationism is a myth! There is not one scientific fact in creationism. Not one.

See how you've been indoctrinated into hate? That is the legacy of the liberal - hatred of their fellow man and a love of the State. See here for why Creationism is scientifically proven, and that currently cosmology is nothing more than a tool of the Godless in their purge of Christianity.

However, they are toning down the Christian elements to cater to today's readers.

"We'll need to be able to give emphatic assurances that no attempt will be made to correlate the stories to Christian imagery/theology."

Now I'm as Godless as the next guy, but I can't help but think that this would be slightly contrary to C. S. Lewis's original vision for his series. I think I can speak for everyone in wishing the publisher a painful eternity in the fires that burn but do not consume.

These "scientists" are not afraid of alien microbes from Mars. Quite the opposite, really.

You see, after enjoying sixty years of bug-eyed monsters in science fiction, people want there to be danger on and from Mars. It's what makes it interesting. It's the only reason Joe Sixpack even cares that there is a red ball of dust in the sky.

These ivory tower academics understand this, so they issue calls for prudence and caution, fulfilling our expectations of the calm and careful scientist. But what they really want is credibility for the idea that Mars is some kind of dangerous alien menace. It is a brilliant but devious propoganda technique.

You see, by demonishing haste in Mars research, they whet the public's appetite for it even more. Like Pavlovian dogs, we salivate for more pretty pictures, more cute toy cars, more saved at the last minute drama. The thought that life exists on this barren planet, and better, dangerous life, is like a candle flame to the moths of our imagination.

But in reality, these "scientists" are actually COMMUNISTS, hell-bent on taking your hard earned money and devoting it to more Godless "research". They know there is no life on Mars, because otherwise it would be mentioned in the Bible. What they really want is to get at those dead Mars rocks, to support the lie that the Solar System is billions of years old. Life means nothing to their cold, emotionless hearts. It is only a convient cover to trick you into submitting to their evil schemes.

--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom

Part of the reason that we haven't invested a lot of national effort into the space program during the past couple of decades is that there is no perceived reason to do so. The vast amount of innovation that took place during the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs was primarily due to the competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. If the USSR had never existed, there would never have been moon landings, because the "godless commies" would not have been our competition. After the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, the circumstances that motivated the US political right to invest heavily in space exploration ceased to exist.

But if Canada begins to aggressively pursue space, this might change. Already, you are seeing conservative publications such as WorldNetDaily and commentators such as Rush Limbaugh lash out at Canada. If you turn on AM talk radio, you don't have to scan far to hear these people lecture their followers about the high incidence of atheism, homosexuality, feminism, Islam, etc. in our Neighbor to the North. Canada's socialist policies (and in particular, its national healthcare system) are constantly under attack from the right.

So we find ourselves coming back full-circle. A nation, that is perceived by many to have Communist leanings, is starting to pursue space exploration. Couple that with the forays that the Chinese government is making into space, and you've got a political environment that might cause people to bump up NASA's budget and make its agenda more aggressive. It's unfortunate that we have to find ourselves in situations like this before we take space exploration seriously, but I am of the opinion that if that is what it takes, then so be it. We've neglected space for way too long .. it's time to jump back into it.

I think this is a blatant attempt to get the social restrictions on one area to apply to other areas. More simply, the "godless" regions of the U.S. (usually referred to as "California") would be forced to be as conservative and religious as, say, Knoxville, Tennessee (which tried to convict the cast and crew of the XXX movie "Deep Throat" on the assumption that the film was onboard a plane as it flew over Knoxville, thus violating local community standards. If you don't beleive me, search the web.).

Because there is such a strong, frequent mention of "local community standards" and of "States' Rights", I find that this law is flawed. Both LCS and SR have been used in the past to justify slavery, segregation, polygamy, gambling, prohibition, and to try to thwart such things as womens' suffrage. In the recent past it has been used to defend the removal of Darwin from the Kansas classroom, to keep flying the confederate flag over southern states, and to make a national election completely vulnerable to the whims and the manipulations of local political hacks (both Illinois and Florida). Still think local community standards and State's Rights is a good thing?

One of the founding principles of America is Self-Interest, "Rightly Understood." Each person has rights, but those rights end where another individual's rights begin. Local communities have the right to be as wild or as conservative as they wish, but they have no right to enforce their standards upon individuals who are not a part of that community.

One group enforcing their will upon another is exactly why most people fled to America.

And note that I've managed to completely ignore whether this involves pornography, murder, election laws, speed limits, or anything else. If you remove one part of the principle, you make it easier to remove the entire principle.

I'm pretty sure that it's a _Dr. Strangelove_ reference. Gen. Jack Ripper's letter refers to protecting the US from godless Commies using fluoridation to contaminate our "precious, bodily fluids".

Hey I want to get the world governments to adopt the "Convention to make Gregg the King of the fucking World, so all bow down before him! Give him your money and spread your legs if he asks." I think this is the only way to protect intellectual property, and our entire way of life. The capitalist system must move towards a Greggism otherwise the godless commies of freedb and Adaptec Inc. will destroy all you hold dear.

fyi, as any BMW aficionado will know, the car is a bimmer, the motorcycle is a beemer.

avoiding tense situations... A repoman spends his life getting into tense situations.

Yeah - Im a godless Communist. Whats your point?

It was decide in the House today by a close 53 to 47 vote that all identical children would be destroyed on the basis that they were indeed "Godless" clones. It was discussed and fnially decided that identical twins, triplets, and so on would be resolved as a single child by the luck of whichever infant was fortunate enough to be that first one to make it out, all subsequent siblings would be destroyed as a public service, in the fervent attempt to prevent the possible birth of the Antichrist inside a souless clone.

When asked about his feelings on this issue President Bush was quoted as saying "It's about time we had good solid Christian laws protecting us against the atrocities of a monstrous technology run amok! If that means we gotta toast an identical twin or two, well dang, constant vigilance is just the price we gotta pay for being a God fearing nation! Ya gotta break eggs to make an omelet! Cloning is a sin against the All Mighty, and I'll gladly smoke the first sucker who tries it on this soil!"

In a related story, 96% of all livestock and 99.9999999% of all vegetable and grain foodstock has been destroyed today, because they were produced from the ungodly technology of cloning. Widespread starvation and panic food buying is expected, however the nation's religious leaders are reported as pleased with the overall outcome. One was even quoted as suggesting this may be the start of the second coming... Halleluiah!!!

What an utterly simplistic view of the world.

Women aren't treated as sex objects in Muslim countries because society's conditioned them not to? Bah!

1. Yes, they are. Rape and incest in some areas of the Middle East are epidemic. Women may routinely be bought, sold, stolen or killed because of their sexual behavior or perceived sexual potential.

2. Conditioned? What do you mean by this? The pervasive influence of religion and a given cultural context? Funny, you ignore our religion and culture: a vengeful, violent biblical God who thinks nothing of wiping people out with plague, flood and famine on a whim; broken families where one or both parents are long since gone; abandoned children left by working parents with underpaid day care staff, all in the interest of affording a boat; parents who refuse to take the time to give their kids the tools to deal with a modern world full of sex and violence, preferring instead to fight against sex education and "godless" ethics-based guidelines...

You know, I was beaten up or beat someone up nearly every day in grammar school. My first day of kindergarten, I was knocked down at kicked silly.

Know what? This was decades ago before the prevalence of the video game industry or the media saturaion of ultra-violent Hollywood. Care to know what the causal factor was in my neighborhood?

-- Apathetic parents who couldn't be bothered to get upset when their kid beat someone up in school -- or couldn't even be bothered to find out that it was happening in their kids' lives to begin with.

-- Just enough "poverty" to keep people fighting for the middle class by working long jobs and keeping their children in day care.

-- A culture of judgmental administrators who were constantly making these kids feel worthless. After all, they were nothing but mindless, violent punks from broken families who would never amount to anything and thus weren't very important in the grand scheme of things anyway...

Sound like any recent cases you can name? Take your right wing views about the Big Bad Liberal Media "America Should Eat Itself" Conspiracy and put it somewhere painful.

I am aware of only ten commandments, none of these say it is wrong to be gay. I'll agree that these commandments are not all of God's law, if you'll agree that in enumarating these commandments God is indicating that they are the most important of his laws.

There is no commandment 'Thou shall not be gay.' Given this, wouldn't it make more sense to target groups of people who are violating God's 10 most important laws. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the Hindu agenda, or the Muslim agenda, or the Buddhist agenda? All of those people are facing "ceratain" damnation, and, unlike gays,are recruiting other people to face "certain" damnation.

If you believe in God, which I am led to doubt, you would be moving for intolerance of the commandment breakers first, and gays second. It disgusts me when a godless commie red wolf like yourself sneaks into the Shepherd's flock wearing the sheepskin of false morallity.

Generally, the week before a film premieres there's a film screening for the press, so you're a week late is my guess. One of the things I do for fun the week before the Seattle International Film Fest is sit in on some of the film screenings, since I always have a pass.

The main question should be - what ever happened to our sense of wonder and astonishment? I think we lost it somewhere in the 90s, and this fin-de-siecle era we live in cares little for space travel and exploration. Millenia from now, when voyagers from other stars come to check up on all those messages we sent out, they'll find a dead, lifeless planet, polluted beyond all recognition, most likely with a nice asteroid impact crater from some plan by a terrorist nation to wreck revenge upon the godless.