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Gaming Companies Being Sued Over Columbine
Rajeev Raghavan writes: "According to this article at the Denver Post. One of the families of the slain teachers at Columbine is suing 25 game companies for $5 billion in damages plus damages of $5000 to $10 million for individual parties in the class action law suit. Great, lets blame more people for our problems, shall we."
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no such thing as a normal human being
on average 70 people per year claimed to have been burned by McDonald's coffee.
I've always found this argument amazing. When 700 million people don't claim to be burned by your coffee, 70 people who do are, well, you know, no big deal.
There's nothing about the "70 people a year" statistics that should impress anyone, except for the terminally statistically-illiterate.
Hell, 70 people a year probably choke to death on their own freakin' toothbrushes. Completely ignorable. You can't Naderize my whole life, you know.
Don't you understand? Saying that guns do damage is even more stupid than saying that violent video games do damage. Guns are merely a tool; the problem is that there are some people out there that think that they should kill other people for no good reason. Violence in the culture may foster this belief, though personally I think that's a load of crap. Certainly, however, it is not the fault of the guns.
Besides, guns are probably less deadly than bombs... I personally think that if we can keep the crazy students trying to kill everyone with a couple of guns we'll be a lot better than if they figure out that a few bombs can do much more damage.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Vhat are you talkink about? I am not spyink on this wonderful country! How dare you be suggestink such lies!
Dirty Capitalist pigdog!
>:->
If these people win, I'm done with America. I'm moving to Canada.
... but when you are suing because you spilled coffee on yourself ... can I sue my parents for getting a divorce when I was a young kid ..."
Pack yer bags.
The legal system here is beyond control when I can sue because I'm an idiot.
It depends on who you are, who you're suing, who your lawyer is and how deep the defendents pockets are.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
HA! Yeah! This is just another typical american law-suit of the type: "I'm too stupid to realize that McDonald's coffee is hot and I have burned my tounge, so I'll just sue them for my blatant ignorance.")
If you're going to sell coffee through a drive-through window, you need to ensure that the containers you put the coffee in aren't flimsy enough to make spilling easy, or you need to serve it at a low enough temperature to reduce the risk of injury.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
If you are stupid enough to want 'donalds coffe you deserve whatever happens to you.
So the smart people are the ones who pay $3.50 a cup at Starbucks?
We're all bozos on this bus.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
If someone sells a gun they should ensure it's constructed in such away that someone can't injur (shoot) themself with it or ensure that the bullet is moving at a slow enough speed in order to reduce the risk of injury.
If you sell me a gun, I expect it not to have a hair trigger and not to be loaded unless you have clearly told me that it is.
I fail to see how requiring reasonably secure containers or cup caddies makes coffee no longer coffee. The ideal brewing temperature of coffee may be close to boiling, but ideal serving temperature is rather cooler.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Damn straight. It's funny, parents who want to adopt a child are subject to strict regulations, but anybody who can have 'em the old-fashioned way can just go screw whoever they want and have one. No prerequisites, no checks, no making sure this person is competent, responsible, and capable.
Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with that?
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
How is it if kids play Doom and shoot up a school, they're victims of the horrible video game industry.
And how is it that if kids read the Bible and bring violence against other people because of some message that says to do so, they're just crazy?
Get your priorities straight. The Bible has been the center of more violence than anything else in our civilization. Put an NC-17 rating on the Bible before you could even think of doing it for video games.
"Where will it end?"
Good question. If the games companies involved here lose the case, then who knows where it will end.
However, there's an optimistic view that says this court case is a positive thing: if the jury throws it out of court, and I really hope they do, then we have a precedent, and it may just turn out that the answer to the question "where will it end?" turns out to be "with this court case".
Here's hoping.
--
"Geneally, I'm 100 percent on the side of the First Amendment"
Except for when there is $5 BILLION to be made.
See my Home Theater
I'm sure if I access to guns I'd be more likely to thing about shooting these people
Comments like that illustrate exactly why we should make guns harder to obtain.
not even close. comments like that only illustrate the problem with making them so hard to obtain. no one who had ever used a gun in a controlled environment would say anything like that unless they were completely off their rocker already.
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
Will take 80 seconds to open....
Schnapps! (Press U to use)
>hic!<
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
>If you consistently expose people to sex and violence they grow to accept it.
Violence is bad. Please, can you explain to me how sex is bad?
He was referring to "porn", not sex. Which is different.
Arguably, not all porn is bad. But, a quick look at some newsgroups is enough to see that the over abundance of porn, most particularly the abusive and degrading one, can (and is) a factor in many sexual assaults.
It's as possible to be addicted to violence as it is to be addicted to sex as it is to be addicted to drugs (ranging from Flintstone vitamins to gasoline vapors).
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
AC isn't making much of a good point by ignoring, as you do, the key points in the original message; and that is, of the degrading and abusive aspects of some of the porn found on the newsgroup.
AC has yet to mature enough to realize that the abuse are not posted on usenet, but ratter publicized on it.
And you have to realize that a person who's sexual dependency is heightened and excited by the abundance of imagery that teaches him(/her in rarer cases) "it's OK, everybody else does it" is a factor that will push that person across the line and commit those acts.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
Yes, I am. Those points are irrelevant unless you can show that they actually have anything to do with sex crimes.
I dont have to know that. It's been shown before. Read up on psychology and sexual behavior.
I know precisely what's on Usenet. What's your point?
Your mother was a hamster...
(Or do you actually read and not just pretend? Cause if you do read, then you missed the point; nothing goes on in usenet (aka, it's not a phisical place eh?); nor what's presented or it's users are in direct cause, but ratter, what's presented is a factor of enforcement of ill-constructed judgement that can lead to acting upon criminal sexual behaviour by some predisposed individuals).
Evidence, bucko, evidence. I'm quite sure that this is a conviction of yours, but that doesn't make it true.
It's not my conviction. I do support conclusions brought in my psychology specialists of any kind on this subject however. And you're right: because they said so, it doesn't make it true. But, I have to trust those who know infinitely more on the subject than I do. I just took psy for 3 terms or so.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
Against slavery? Don't buy one!
Exactly, and that's what would make you a responsible parent. This guy seems to be saying that we shouldn't depend on parents to be responsible like you (not letting their kids play violent games until they're old enough to really understand life & death), but should rather force the game companies not to make violent games. While we're at it, we should probably get rid of all books with violence, & movies with violence, & songs about violence, &.. you see where this is leading, right?
-mike kania
I think these "aimbots" are dangerous too. Who knows how many lives could have been saved if aimbots weren't there to help these kids with their shots. Clearly lives would be saved if aimbots were removed from these servers and people were forced to learn how to fire guns for real. Most people just can't do it.
It would take hours (maybe days) to learn how to fire a gun accurately, but since kids have easy access to aimbots, they just point and shoot. Even then, they would need access to the weapons, which are just lying on the ground in these games!
I think I'm going to sue everyone who write these highly dangerous scripts.
"I want someone else to take responsibility for my kids! I can't control what they watch on TV, listen to, or what games they play!"
My solution: Put all American children in concentration camps where special Parental Units can control their every move. 'cause someone has to take responsibility for the kids, since the parents can't do it.
I don't let my kid watch "violent" or "sexual" movies, listen to "violent" or "sexual" music, or play "violent" or "sexual" video games. Of course, he's only 5 months old, but you have to start looking after your kids early.
- chrish
- chrish
Unless you're a bad shot. Then your attacker would know you are now unarmed.
so i can sue conservatives if i'm the victim of a crime committed by a person in an impoverished and crime ridden area? excellent!
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Actually, I believe that God doesn't exist. In any case, if your god does exist, I don't think he had any human's best interests in mind when he did the plagues, not that his reasoning was wrong. This is all of course unanswerable, since an omnipotent diety has ways of manipulating facts that would put Big Brother to shame.
Just because you think you understand something, doesn't mean that something does exist, or that it exists in the way you interpret it to exist. Given that reason is the best tool I have, I will continue to try and use it
>> Funny, you ignore our religion and culture: a vengeful, violent biblical God who thinks nothing of wiping people out with plague
> When one understands the nature of God, while not pulling the reality of violence out of context, you will understand that the Bible comunicates a loving God.
Your god, being omnipotent, had a thousand other options that would have harmed no one. He decided to send a series of plagues. If that's okay, then what's wrong with what the Palestenians are doing? They don't have good options, yet we get upset about them picking one of the few effective ones, the same one your god consisently chose.
If I could ++ this comment, I would. Damn moderation stuff.
_14k4
"Dale Todd, Evan's father, said he hooked up with Thompson through research he did on violent video games. He even obtained a copy of "Doom" and played it himself. He was appalled. "
:)
'Obtained' a copy. Hrm, he's a warez feind. Oh well.
My issue is the fact that they use the OLD games as evidence. I dont belive games cause issues with kids, I just find it funny that they keep mentioning Doom instead of UT, or Half Life or anything else. They'll probably mention scorched earth or one must fall 2099 soon enough.
_14k4
1) What is your favorite color?
a) Blue
b) Green
c) Yellow
2) Carrying a gun to school is ok if you have no intention to use it (unless you're really pissed off of course):
a) True
b) False
c) Maybe
3) What's the air speed velocity of a laden swallow?
a) 2 mph
b) 4 mph
c) 8 mph
d) What do you mean? African or European?
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Do we blame the alcohol industry when someone dies as a result of drunk driving?
Unfortunately, bad example. $DEITY help me, but I've seen several lawsuits where the bar or liquor store was sued -- successfully -- for wrongful death in a civil court. Nobody's responsible for their own actions anymore. Why should they be?
I don't know about this "jury of your peers" bullshit -- I think I'd rather have a panel of three judges who understand the law deciding the case... I've just seen too much evidence that the people who are too stupid to get out of jury duty are sheeple, not my peers. And, most of the people who don't try to get out of it and want to be there, will be far more likely to vote guilty on anything.
No, I don't have evidence, I just felt the need to rant.
-30-
How about some 1.6 million abortions every year. If Mom and Dad can abort little Jessica, why can't I kill that gigantic prick at school?
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Woah there, hold it a second. You're saying I should have "just ignored it" when the abuse (verbal and physical) hit me in high school? Cool! You must have been one of the counsellors I used to ask for help! You're right in one regard, though: some people manage to get through it. Y'know what I did? I got sick of high school really fast. Two years of it was enough. At fifteen, I pushed really hard to get on the roster of students that the school district would pay (small) scholarships for to go to college. Here I sit, 23 years old, firmly upper middle class (for a full three years now, we've been in the black, instead of hemorrhaging money like my abusive "classmates" back in high school are now), quickly ascending the "corporate ladder", and in a much better position than I'm sure most of the loser jock and preppy assholes I attended school with are. Feels good. Not everyone can accomplish this though, and whether "it happens all the time" or not, it's not right. I went to school to learn certain things; I had expected "how to beg your way out of being bludgeoned with an engineer's scale," or "how to hold it in and show no emotion when the teasing got so bad you could just, well, kill your classmates" NOT to be on the roster of "things my high school will teach me." Yes, I really did want my classmates to die. I wished I could hurt them back. I lacked the physical strength, size, or agility to hurt them physically. I lacked the wit and clever retorts I needed to stand up for myself in the verbal assaults. I sometimes lacked the sheer will not to break down in front of them (which, I promise you, they revelled in). I truly relished the news that one of the pricks who'd been particularly cruel to me had been killed on a four-wheeler. Yes, I think it served him right. I earned some respect (or fear) that day at school by being in the best mood I'd ever been in there. I hope you don't get nailed by an American moderator, ad nauseum. More people are needed to shred your arguments to pieces as they so richly deserve. Yes, I survived the horrific experience that is high school. No, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. And to anyone from Thompson Valley High School who might be reading this: fuck you.
Read my stuff.
Now if the game companies were smart they would sue the parents for allowing their mentally disturbed child to play thier game. And as a consequence of this it has harmed the companies reputation with other parents. Sue for double what the parents are sueing for.
Lets put the blame where it belongs, on the mentally screwed up individual. I myself have played and enjoyed many explicite violent games, and although my sanity is questionable I have yet to kill anyone. I don't even own a gun. One of my favorites games being carmageddon, you get to run over people and watch them splatter, and althougth the thought is sometimes nice, I have yet to go running people over. By sueing these companies making really nice software to relieve my stress, the companies could go out of business or they will raise their game prices. Either way everyone looses because of a lack of parental supervision. Sue the parents of the kids who did it....
....OH MY!!! They don't have enough money, ok lets find any company that the child came in contact with and see who has the most money and which one of them we can get the most out of and have a chance at winning.
This is another shining star of human ignorance, and greed. Why not go for the bands they listened to? If I remember correctly they weren't rich (or that popular) either, so the only people with money they have a chance of winning against is game makers. Why not the makers of the guns they used...but a gun doesn't kill, people do.
This is sad.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
Are you trying to say that in "Muslim" countries there is less sexual and/or violent crimes than in other parts of the world?
Actually I think that violence in these countries are more than here, they are just approved of by the govt and people. You can beat your wife, just do it at home out of site. Also where do you think most of the terrorists come from, these nice non-violent "muslim" nations. I think its a matter of perspective. We seem to have more violence since violence in most forms are concidered wrong. Where in "muslim" countries might seem less violent due to the fact they have more "accepted" violence. It happens, it just isn't news because everyone believes its ok.
Create one standard and compare it to all and I think most of the rest of the world is in the same boat we are in.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
"Generally, I'm 100 percent on the side of the First Amendment"
"Except when it involves large sums of money for myself.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
It's just far simpler to point the finger of blame at others
I think you are missing the key factor here....GREED!
They are not sueing the game companies because they needed a place to blame. If they just wanted to place blame there are the parents. But the parents probably can't be taken for obsene ammounts of money. So they are after people with money, and companies usually have some money.
If you want to depress yourself just figure that they are not doing this for any other reason than to make $$$ off an game company that had no real choice in wheather this mentally ill individual played their games or not. No one wants to be the trigger that sets off some mental case. But even Ozzy delt with that.
For every one individual that does something terrible and the blame gets dropped on something very public and visible, there are millions out there who have enjoyed the same thing without doing anything terrible because of it.
Right after the incident many long years ago, when "Top Secret" was blamed for some kid blowing away a store clerk, me and freinds went and got "Top Secret" and played it. To be honest, it didn't live up to the hype.
It isn't blame anymore...its who can pay out the most.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
and if I gave you a gun and you shot someone would I be guilty?
Maybe, In this instance I would agree that the US is partially to blame. Since they know that Israel is fighting the Arabs.
Now if Isreal was wasn't fighting with anyone and we were giving them weapons and they started killing after the fact then it wouldn't be the US's fault.
But to say Arabs are peacfull non-violent people would be a joke. Some might be, but there is allot of violence there, and worse is that while we publicly deny acceptance of it, but watch it on tv and play it in games, the Arab nations accept the violence as acceptable. While at the same time saying they are not violent.
If you make murder acceptable does it make it right? Because its accepted does that keep you from being a murderer when you kill someone? Only durring war does this seem to apply, and only for killing other soldiers. Not that it makes it right.
This is a violent world we live in, and all countries have their own share of violence and hatred.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
For instance, in Muslim countries women aren't leered at and treated as sex objects, because society conditions them not to.
You are wrong. You don't see American women
shy away from a mastectomy (in case of breast
cancer) for fear of losing their husband's
favor. You do see that in Muslim countries.
Hear hear! You want to help? Then DO SOMETHING. And yes, there are things that can be done. Mentoring is a great way to help. Have siblings that age? Talk to them, work with them. Not? Contact one of the many charitable organizations that deal in this sort of thing. Big Brothers, Big Sisters is one place to start. They have a few different programs available to mentor kids. It's a fair bit of work, but it's fun too.
As for this case. Do people really think that refusing to sell games to kids is going to do ANYTHING? How stupid are these people?!?! Do they really think these kids go spend $50 for each game? Nope, they COPY them. That activity is ALLREADY illegal. And it doesn't stop them. Those kids aren't allowed to have guns to do the shooting with, yet they seem to manage to get them. Again, it is allready illegal, but it doesn't stop them. And now these people think that a court action is going to keep these "dangerous" games out of the hands of thier kids? WTF?!?! Sure, it may prevent the software places from selling to kids. But that's not going to keep the games away from the kids. If they want them, they will get them. And the harder you make it to get them, the more they will want them. If for no other reason then to do what they aren't supposed to. Look at ciggarettes. Kids get them and smoke them, it's illegal to sell or give them to kids. But they get them. I had friends that got them simply for the thrill of breaking the law! They didn't even smoke! These people need to get medical help for their rectal-cranial insertion and look at themselves and thier kids. You don't want your kids having something? TAKE AN ACTIVE ROLE! It's called PARENTING. Ask your local librarian if you need a deffinition or other refference material for that word.
BTW: They don't market to the kids. As the article says, corporations exist to make money. They will market to the poeple that HAVE MONEY. Kids don't. And this isn't the kind of product you can get kids to pester thier parents into buying for them. Not to mention the new trend of requiring big computers to play the new games. Kids don't often have access to enough computing power to enjoy those games unless mommy and daddy buy it. So why aren't mommy and daddy watching what gets installed on thier computer? hmmmm?
No good. I have very little chemistry or machining knowledge but I could MAKE ammo in my basement. The materials are available in nature if you decide you want to ban the sale of the chemicals. The fact is, the guns and ammo are a minor part of the problem.
Oh, and we can't make gun ownership contingent on millitary training. Not without ammending the Constitution.
[goes on to list a few specifics of the case]
I have one, and only one, question: had she bought McDonald's coffee anytime in recent history, after McDonald's started serving their coffee so hot? If so, then she doesn't have a leg to stand on. Period. If not, then she might have a valid complaint.
Even so. Face it: shit happens. Automobile accidents (misnomer though it may be) are common. When I drive, I do so knowing that there is a possibility that someone will do something stupid and hit me, perhaps destroying my car and perhaps injuring me or even killing me. That is a risk I take by exposing myself to the driving environment.
When you buy coffee, there is the possibility that it will be too hot to drink. It's a risk that anyone with a brain will be aware of. Ms. Liebeck took that risk and lost. Tough. Shit happens.
It's when someone is either knowingly negligent (by "knowingly", I mean that they have already considered and dismissed the resulting effects) or malicious that I believe they should pay -- criminally. That goes for corporations as well: they should be shut down, either temporarily (equivalent to being put in jail) or permanently (equivalent to being executed) if convicted of a criminal offense. There will be innocent people working for such companies. Tough. They'll have to find another job, just as the people who unknowingly worked for convicted criminals had to.
In almost all other cases, responsibility for the consequences should be shouldered by the injured. Dealing with such consequences is what we have insurance for, but the tort system has managed to significantly distort the basic idea behind insurance such that the true costs and risks of something are hidden, because they're recovered by insurance companies as much through the tort system as they are through premiums. As for the victim not being aware of the possible consequences, ignorance of the law is no defense against a conviction, so why should ignorance of the risks be a defense against having to suffer the consequences of ignoring such risks?
Bottom line: the reason there are so many lawsuits in the U.S. today is that people expect everyone else (but not themselves, of course) to be perfect and, as a result, anything made by others to be similarly perfect. Or, at least, perfectly safe. Thanks to the "dumbing down" of America, Americans no longer understand how the world around them works, so it never occurs to them that there is risk in the things they do.
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Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
Hell, yes: by the very act of suing iD, they're impugning iD's products!
Looksee, it's the American Legal System at work here. Rationality doesn't enter the picture.
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
iD software should COUNTER-SUE, claiming that the parents' irresponsible guardianship led their children to cause harm to the business, by creating a situation in which the company's video games became linked, in the news media, to their killing spree.
The reduction in sales has cost iD software millions of dollars. The parents are liable for that loss!
Hey, it's no more inane than what's being claimed by big bad John DeCamp...
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Then why don't children in Switzerland grab their Daddy's assault rifle and go shoot up their classmates? Every adult Swiss male has one, you know, they are required to.
Go ahead, come up with some flippant reply that will allow you to disregard this simple question so you don't have to think about what is wrong with these kids. People are not inherently evil and violent, there is something wrong with our culture. I don't profess to know what the real problem is, but taking away guns is not going to make it better (they'll just start making bombs).
You really think you would have killed someone if you had a gun? I grew up with guns around and never shot anyone. Sure I thought about it, in a fantasy mode like the way you'd think about punching your boss in the nose when you're really pissed off, but I never seriously considered it or thought I might "snap" and do it. Hunting as a kid taught me what bullets do to flesh and bone and I knew damned well that I would regret hurting a person like that.
Do you really not trust yourself with the power of life and death over others? Maybe you should turn in your driver's license.
I think anyone, with even half a braincell, can see where this is going.
If we accept it as a fact that movies and videogames are to blame for peoples actions, then why not books, comics, radio and theater as well ?
If seeing someone beeing killed in a specific way, makes someone kill in a similar way, then it is just a small step from saying that 'hearing' about someone kill, will make someone to kill in the same way.
And just where will we get a change to say that enough is enough, that ultimately, people are responsible for their own actions.
Haven't we had enough of books beeing censored already, to be "political correct" for our children ?
Will the evil wizard/witch just take off to a long Vacation in the future ?
--
Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
>If I tell you jump off a bridge and you do it,
> a[m] I responsible?
Well, if by jumping off the bridge, I have a small
chance of survival, while staying on the bridge
with you, I do not, then yes, you are responsible.
I wonder if it makes a difference whether the killers bought the game or bootlegged it. If any of them paid retail for a shooter, I'll eat my hat.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I love how parents can never take responsability for anything these says, and worse of all the pointing of fingers is really getting tired.
Would be nice if parents would be PARENTS, I don' have a problem with making the purchase of games limited by age groups, as parents need at least a little help in that respect, but if this continues to the point where games are outlawed, etc, well that would be the end of what makes this country great! (see 1st Amendment)
-- "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so.
The point is, levelling the school and everything for a block around it is easy, and can be done with stuff that's difficult to impossible to ban and no special equipment. Getting a gun is hard. The risk won't go away if you ban guns.
Another point is, the person most likely to know how to level the school is wearing a collared shirt with pocket protector, not a trench-coat printed with a drunk Euro symbol. The risk won't go away if you terrorise minority groups, nor if you protect them.
In order to fix the problem, you must fix the people. You won't fix the people with more indoctrination, regimentation and random harassment. You'll fix the people by not crushing their individuality, creativity, authority and responsibility; by giving them less time in schools, not more; by letting the parents back into their lives instead of shutting them out as much as possible.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
No, it's only something that they think they can fix. Schools are doing what they are supposed to do, this is only an inevitable side-effect.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I'd argue that women in muslim countries are more objectified then women in western countries. In fact, I'd say that extremely othordox muslim observation objectifies women to the extreme.
We're talking about genital mutliation practices, requirements for pubic hair shaving -- use of women exclusively for house-support and sex (it's not allowed for women to express their opinion to men in any fashion).
If that isn't the objectification of women, I'm not sure I know what is.
Not to mention the routine practice in *some* Muslim countries of mutilating women's genitals in such a way as to make it impossible to obtain any physical pleasure from sex. Or the practice of marrying girls off at ridiculously young ages.
Go you big red fire engine!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2000-10 -09
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
Most CS guys are just as immature as that cheerleader. Just wait 'till you get to an analysis of algorithms class, and learn about the "big O" (worst-case running time for an algorithm, and the butt of many CS jokes)!
0 1 - just my two bits
Why not have these kids read books, or get a job or something like that? Parents in the US today, let their kids play violent games all day long. In fact, indirectly they subsidise this activity. They buy kids games for birthdays, Christmas etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.
This is not the fault of game companies per say. It is 90% the fault of the parents. No wonder kids grow up to be violent non-thinking zombies. There are no bad children, just bad parents.
Stop buying these games for the kids and the problems will eventually go through a metamorphosis to something less severe.
Alex
Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. -Ayn Rand
If the court is idiot enough to let this go thru, we will have a whole slew of issues to blame on video games: We can sue pubs of driving/racing games for auto accidents, PacMac for my eating disorder, and, on the bright side, Msft for a new liver since they drove me to drink.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Well, if a gun could only be fired once is "safe", then obviously duels should be reinstated; they traditionally used single-shot pistols. Ask Alexander Hamilton how safe one is. Oh, wait, he was killed. By a single shot.
Second, saying that single-shot firearm is somehow useful for defense shows a misunderstanding of the reality of weapons used for defense. FBI statistics show that when firearms are used legitimately (this includes police officers), the rate of accuracy is low - something on the order of 20%. So, my "safe" single-shot pistol is virtually useless for defense. Only the most highly-trained marksmen would ever stand a chance of hitting a target - and police, like the military, don't get nearly enough firearms training.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
That's OK. I read it as "Who" the first time. I guess all the bad grammar I read every day online has built up a language filter in my head.
If you are stupid enough to want 'donalds coffe you deserve whatever happens to you.
It's called new wave but it's just the same.
Where did parental responsibility go in the last decade? This is no different from "little Johnnie blew his head off because Metallica told him to do it." It's just updated for the information age.
--
ok, by this argument, fencing should be outlawed.
:)
clearly, swordsmanship has one and only one purpose, to kill a living thing...
see, the problem with your argument is that humans evolve and refactor their behaviours over time.
what was once an act of survival (say weaponry for survival of the race, tribe, etc), becomes a sought after skill, those who excel in it are revered, after which it occationally morphs into a "sport". not everyone can be good at it, thus it becomes a means for competition.
so, i buy your argument if things are always static and human ideals don't change. unfortunately, i happen to believe it's not actually that simple
cheers.
Peter
FYI~ 'disinterested' and 'uninterested' can be used interchangeably in modern English, but they do have slightly different meanings. Disinterested can sometimes mean 'formerly interested' or 'lost interest in', while 'uninterested' always means the simpler 'has no interest in'.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
So, if the kids are getting these violent video games with their parents buying them than it doesnt matter, right? If it's anyones "fault" it's the parents.
In the sentiment of Chris Rock, What the fuck happened to just plain crazy? That's what these kids are. They are copy cat crazy assholes. Period. Some kid decided to shoot up his school, and all these other crazy ass kids thought that was a good idea. If you are going to shrug the problem off on someone else blame the kids before hand - school shootings aren't a new thing. Same reason why they stopped announcing people jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge - if people hear about someone else doing it, it can't be all that bad right?
It'll just turn around, and if they take away violent video games someone will go on a shooting spree and claim that it was because they didnt have video games to take their agression away.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Should we blame the images on TV? NO, Blame Canada!
Haven't these people learned anything??!?!
WTF does someone do with 5 million anyway?
I'd buy a new gaming rig... <g>
C-X C-S
What's really amazing is that just this weekend I was watching "Heathers" on TV. If there's any one movie that would be Columbine-inspiring, it's "Heathers" - it included black trench coats, shooting the school jocks, and blowing up the school. I like the movie, but it's a surprise given the current atmosphere that anyone will still play it in the U.S.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I don't know about that, you didn't even have to aim up and down in DOOM :) Just hit the floor and you're safe from any DOOM-trained psychokids.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Don't forget the tried-but-true reason: to protect yourself against governments with guns.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Attacking the First Amendment is generally much more lucrative than defending it.
What I want to know is, why hasn't a TV "docudrama" been produced of this yet? And don't look at me funny and tell me I that's the most tasteless and horrible thing you've ever heard... worse, equally tactless exploitative television programs have aired in the past. I was discussing this with a friend the other day and we not-so-fondly remembered the half dozen OJ docudramas that were all over the airwaves before the trial had even started.
Just something that piqued my curiosity.
--=Major
One useless man is called a disgrace; two are called a law firm; and three or more become a Congress. -John Adams, 1776
And so if someone breaks the law and you get injured because of it, why can you not sue them for damages?
Yeah, that's fair enough - but if the law really says that I'm not responsible for my own actions, then it needs to be changed.
What next - getting away with theft because the combination of the capitalist society we live in and the lack of a well-paying job meant that I was "forced" into it?
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
...and the shops for making them so easily available and selling the games, too!
Sue the tech support people who put the PCs together, and fix them when they break!
Hell, sue MS - it's their OS that the games run under!
What's next - suing people for not preventing people from doing things? Oh wait, that's already happened...
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
You know, as much as I'd like to believe that "in Muslim countries women aren't leered at and treated as sex objects," it's not true. I'm in a muslim country (Pakistan) and I am muslim, but hey, it's a lot more idealistic to think that women aren't. I don't really have a point, but I'd just like to clear that up. On a side note, a large percentage of women in the west that convert to Islam previous to conversion considered themselves "feminist". They appreciate how after they started covering their hair and dressing more modestly, they weren't treated as cattle.
~jawad
How is it that all the victims, those of the dead students and dead teachers don't bother to remember that these kids were social outcasts. These kids were probably isolated, teased, demeaned and talked about behind their backs. You can't blame a video game company, a record label, or NBC for your kid's violence tendancies. It's a factor yes, but consider that adolescence is hard enough without having to worry about being told your a loser and a nobody by an entire student body.
A lot of kids have loving parents who even when those kids come home feeling diminutive and broken can be made to remember that they're somebody and that they belong.
These kids were probably not taught tolerance, and above all you can't expect a 16 year old boy or girl to not snap under extreme social pressure or feelings of anger and pain that are left unchecked by someone who can temper those feelings. Blame the parents for not telling them enough that they had worth, blame the student body for rejecting these kids sovereign claims as individuals with their own minds and feelings. Don't randomly attack a media that to date hasn't produced murderers and gun-trigger crazies of us all. The number of people who play Quake who take out a cafeteria pales in comparison to the number of people who play Quake who are relatively balanced and just need some stress relief.
I think these people are too grief-stricken to realize what they're doing and who's really to blame.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
And perhaps they should sue all major publishing houses for allowing books describing graphic violence to fall into the hands of children.
Oh no - wait - that's called education, right?
In this case, I imagine the lawyer is doing it pro bono (for free). It is typical in American pro bono cases, for the lawyer's percentage to be as high as 40%. Thus. 40% of 5 billion dollars - a hefty 2 billion. That should cover his costs rather nicely, with a few pennies left over.
Plus, the publicity generated ensures him cases into eternity, even if he does lose.
He knows what he's doing.
Perhaps, but you still miss the point that it's the parent's job to determine how much this stuff affects their kids, and adjust.
Different kids are different, if you spend a lot of time with your kids, you will notice how things change them. My oldest became distant when watching too much TV (at 2 1/2 years old), He's 5 now and we haven't had TV for 2 1/2 years. The second one would probably be fine, but it's not really worth it. Easier to control videos than TV. (Started allowing videos about 6 months ago, don't want them to be "odd", just a bit protected)
Parents MUST spend time with their kids, and more than an hour a day. Then they will notice how things affect their personality, and then they should adjust, and be ready to not be liked for a while. We are parents, not friends, we are to protect and teach.
Also, Muslim is a horrible example, the women are not sexual objects, they are merely Objects.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
No... the SAME million will download it.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
I was about to jump off of a bridge once, when it hit me just in time! This isn't the game of Lemmings!
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
Have you been to London lately? The first minor uprising, and 50 uber-armed swat-team guys show up now. (Was there during the May Day thing)
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
I think you should check some statistics. You'd be surprised how many guns there are, and how few get used for crime. This has nothing to do with gun laws, they probably would have just spent more time figuring out how to blow up the building all at once if they didn't have guns.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
That's how conditioning works, and that's what's happened here. There is no way that violence has no effect.
I'll - sort of - concede your point; one can become inured to violence. But I've spent years playing Manic Miner on my spectrum (and speccy emulator); so for it hasn't made me any more likely to jump over toilets. Equally, many nerd-hours spent on quake hasn't inculcated in me a desire to buy a shotgun (though I wouldn't mind a BFG).
My point: computer games aren't violent. Hands up everyone out there who's ever been hurt playing quake (RSI doesn't count)? Who, upon joining the army, was fasttracked into the special forces because they can kill the end-of-game monsters on Doom without dying once?
I like quake, for the same reason that I like Tapper. Both test my reflexes, and are fun to play. No-one dies when I play Quake, and no-one's teeth fall out after drinking soda when I play Tapper.
I'm not saying that people can't be adversely affected. But I am saying that those people were pretty close to the edge anyway, and that they could be tipped over by something as innocuous as a computer game, or as sinister as a game show. There's usually no way of knowing what the exact stimulus was, and there's never any point in blaming that stimulus.
Hey! You just described a "rave!"
"The dead do not shoo-bop-aloo-bah." -- Kai, 'Lexx'
If you consistently expose people to sex and violence they grow to accept it. It's as obvious as anything. It's conditioning.
Its genetic. People like sex because kinda ensures the survival of our species.
You're mixing cause with effect.
Parents never question, nor even apparentely LOOK in kid's bedroom, where reportedly massive evidence was lying in plain sight
The day they actually went to go kill everybody, yes. Their parents actually respected their privacy, which is most of the time a very good thing.
Dude! don't mention "Heathers!" They'll come and take away all my copies! :)
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Heh, I think I got into more fisticuffs before I started listening to Heavy Metal than after, and exactly zero since I started listening to KMFDM.
When I was more violent, I was listening to stuff like MC Hammer. (I was young. Mistakes were made.)
So there. It's MC Hammer's fault, not Metallica's or KMFDM's.
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
When I returned home to the UK (from Sweden) for Christmas 2000 I was shocked by the number of personal injury claims adverts there were on TV.
"Where there's blame there's a claim".
The UK is going the way of the US.
So, let's ask what other targets they can take on.
Or, of course, the people could take some responsibility for their lives and deal with that time-tested statement "Shit Happens."
With my sarcasm spent, let me note how lawsuits like these combine two of the worst parts of our society - a tendancy to blame others and a lawsuit-happy attitude. These people are blaming others for their problems, so they're going to take them down without caring about the repercussions or the ethics.
Some moral stance they're making.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Last week, Ed Bradley did an hour-long piece on Columbine. In fact, I would say it was the most even-handed, well-researched piece on Columbine I had ever seen. They talked about the times beforehand that the two had gotten in trouble and threatened others. They spoke about what was happening at the school and its failure to address things going on. They talked about the parents themselves and never going into their rooms. Catch the link out to the 60 Minutes II site here . This is a link to the first part of the story, but the second part on warning signs is at the bottom of the page but the link is here .
Most games have a rating on them, letting the purchaser know what type of material is contained within.
In BC (not the rest of Canada) I believe there is law requiring vendors to actually enforce this rating. Everywhere else, it's just informational (as it should be).
All those bible-thumping the media-made-my-kid-a-satanic-postal-worker types should go live somewhere else, like China.
This sort of "trash" shouldn't be allowed in any child's hands, can't you hear the cries rise from America ???
. . .until, of course, they realize that I'm talking about the Bible. [evil grin]
Yep. Sounds like those darned video games are to blame to me. . .
Except for when he's not.
That is one transparent way of lying or self-deception. It's related to
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but it seems to me as a brit that the natural reading of the second amendment is that the "people keeping and bearing arms" should also be "a well regulated militia". Now that sounds more like the Swiss model than every Tom, Dick and Harry being able to walk into their nearest Wal-Mart and buy a semi-automatic assault rifle.
I do wonder sometimes how many Americans have actually read their constitution.
Violence has existed in human culture since its very beginnings. Man evolved, through a combination of wit and violence, above the animal kingdom, but has never lost that violent edge at any point in his history, as any casual inspection of the history of wars and crime will tell you. At the same time, art and literature throughout human
history have depicted violence; it is a facet of human life, and no artist can simply wish it away if he wishes to remain true to life. (Anyone who believes that violence in art is a new phenomenon should enhance their knowledge of human culture by reading The Illiad. Acbilles is as cold-blooded a killer as has ever appeared on a computer monitor, and the body count far exceeds any Hollywood film I have seen recently.)
Previous posters have created a tremendously simplified view of the world in which the media and electronic games condition and incite us (particularly children) to violence. In reality, even in the complete abseence of external media, man is an often-violent creature. One cannot eliminate violence from man; it is inherent to his nature.
The reasons for every mass-killing in the last few years are complex, but largely have nothing to do with art, music, the media, or computer games. Millions of pscyhologically balanced people enjoy these with no problems. Instead, we should be asking outselves why some members of our society are so incredibly estranged and angry that they are driven to commit such acts, and what we can do to help them. We should also be asking ourselves why it is that guns are so easy to come by in our society that even an average teenager has no problem getting his hands on a few. Going after the computer gaming industry is a sad attempt to focus attention, but it misses the point entirely, and in the end will bring us no closet to solving the myriad of problems which are responsible.
Science, like Nature, must also be tamed, with a view turned towards its preservation.
into the effects of this interactive violence on children or adults. What little reasearch has been done tends to show a cathartic effect -- violent tendencies tend to wane in people playing violent games. This is probably the reason for so little research -- those who have the money to burn on this research want the results to go the other way, and aren't likely to pony up for a truly independent study with open protocols which might run completely counter to their goals.
The gaming industry should put up the funding for a large-scale study of this sort done by independent researchers devoid (as much as is possible) of bias in this situation to determine once and for all to get htese things laid to rest.
I would note that WATCHING violence (TV, etc.) does have a pronounced desensitizing effect. My armchair psychologist's opinion is that the difference is that games provide an ability to vent where video doesn't, and there is simply no control over your destiny.
It's really nice to see something that makes sense around here...Recently /.'s been taken over by the right, the pro-Microsoft, anti-"piracy" folks. Geez.. this place used to be a geek site, now it's look, I'm smart because I'm a right-wing jerk copying propaganda from some think-tank somewhere and acting all special because they're countering the "/. conspiracy"... gimme a break
-Splat
That lawsuit was valid, actually.  The coffee the lady was given was at 180 degrees F - standard coffee temperature, even at McDonalds, is 140-160 degrees. The coffee was hot enough to cause 3rd-degree burns instantaneously, as opposed to the mild burn you might get from a normal-temperature cup. Also, she spilled it and severely burnt her lap, not her tongue.
This gaming lawsuit has no grounds at all... it's the parents' responsibility to control their kids, not society's (or any part of the free market system).
0x0D 0x0A
Am i the only one here who gets a very strange, and dirty-tasting deja-vu feeling here?
.. Anything strange == evil and bad
if i remeber correctly, before video games were a hit, rock-and-roll music was demonic, causing youngsters to missbehave. (70's).
Then in the 80's and 90's music from the metal persuasion caused kids to kill and kill them selves..
Then video games became populair, and now they are causing kids to go postal..
The only red line i see here is that parents will blame anything that
1) They don't know from there own childhood, since its strange and new, it surely must be the cause of this behaviour
2) Will find any reason why there kids are not well-behaved, other then there own responcibilities..
This in its self is human nature, we people seem to be very afraid of everything we dont know or grew up with. Think of the fear technology used to (and still does) bestow on people, think of rasism, think of gene modifications, etc
in the end its just the old 'monsters under your bed' syndrom, what we dont understand we fear.
So far ok i gues, its what makes us human, but to sue the game companies, rock bands, etc because we are collectivly in denial about our own responsibilities, and histories lessons, is a bit far fetched and has a frantic ugly smell to it
Hell, why not sue bed manufactures since they scare kids into thinking there can be monsters under the bed, and think of the violance that will cause!!
Ps, please sue the 8'oclock news as well, if that wouldnt turn anyone violent, i don't know what would..
-- Chris Chabot
"I dont suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it!"
Hunting as a kid taught me what bullets do to flesh and bone and I knew damned well that I would regret hurting a person like that.
This intrigues me, as real life ballistic damage is definitely a fair cry from the shit you see on law and order. Perhaps shownomercy.com should be part of schooling? Show them what really happens when a bullet hits someone?
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Because silver bullets are way too expensive...
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
As a fan of the games, such as DOOM and Quake, this rather scares the hell out of me.
No, I don't think they are going to win lawsuit, at least not the $5 Billion that they want. But they very well could run a few of the game developers out of business. This case will cost the game developers tens of thousands of dollars per day to defend against. It will probably be dragged out as long as possible by the plantif, meaning that it could very easily cost millions of dollars in lawyer fees.
Someone mentioned that the lawyer prosicuting the case is probably doing it for free, but I'd be very surprized if the defense lawyer did.
The other problem is the lawsuit will probably be aimed at the developers of the game, not the publishers. Sierra and Activision just publish the games for the developers like id Software. Most game development companies don't have that much money (id Software being the biggest exception), partly because many of them are one shot wonders. They get one good game out that repays the capital used to develop the game and fund the development for the next game (which may not be a big hit) and thats it.
We aren't talking about a lawsuit against some huge mega-corporations that have the money to burn and will just write it off at the end of the year. The lawsuit will kill the small game developers, even if the ruling is in their favor.
Someone prove me wrong. Please.
Jonathan
"There is no such thing as an H&K MP5 machine gun"
I beg to differ. H&K make several models of the MP5 and SP5 which although they are technically SUB-machine guns because they shoot pistol ammunition, are never the less generically and correctly refered to as machine guns.
this suit should be thrown out upon sight considering they are asking the judge to stop the selling of these games to kids under 17, and Hariis and Klebold were both 18. that, and it's utter shit, but i think my first point is more valid. These people have no basis, and no grounds to sue based on their own criteria.
Three, according to the article. All in the same family.
What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?
Still not dead.
And what if I'm wearing the Euro symbol?
Well, weren't the comics to blame for twisting the minds of the parents and grandparents before the Comics Code in the 1950s?
I believe the parents were sued, and there was a substantial cash settlement, paid off by the parents' homeowners' policies. (Frankly, this doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either -- the shooters' parents may not have been perfect, but there's nothing that suggests they "should have known" Columbine would happen.)
I'm not blaming guns, or trenchcoats, or Doom, or whatever, I blame Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Enough said.
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
FC Closer
sex is not violence. in fact, the one (reproductive, or just plain fun) has nothing to do with the other.
you might as well talk about the dangers of gardening and violence. there is a very clear line between the two. if you are not able to see that line, i am very sorry for you and you should probably seek counseling.
nuff said.
i come from a country where access to guns is restricted. and i think that's a _good thing_. it saves lives.
just recently, two kids had planned a shooting akin to columbine. they were captured before they could do any harm, and they will now - NO, not be locked up - be counseled. the entire school and much of the country is talking of what's behind the anger. no one is talking about video games, BTW.
the reason they were captured is that they couldn't get a gun in time. it took them several weeks to to try and get the gun on the black market. in america, they would have been stacked with military grade weaponry by that time.
guns don't kill people. but they certainly are neccessary to kill people.
of course, it's more important to discuss what is behind incidents like this. a bully-society? enormous pressure on teens to "make it" lest they be "losers" for the rest of their lives? general carelessness by parents? there is no easy answer, but the dialoge must start now.
I am in highschool and after all of these things have happened our school has become extreamly precarious about any sort of voilence. They get very upset over us having Q3 on the PC's in the labs around the school. I don't understand how adults attribute student's actions to violence in the media. For a junior it is very easy for me to see how and why things like Columbine happen. At my highschool of 1200 students I can easily see those students that have been marginalized by the system. The ones that have always had a tough time, and these tough times have been compounded by a community that only further suppresses them. The sad thing is that this community is not just the students, it is the adults in the school too. Adults are human and they show, if not as openly as students, their dislike for certain students. Imagine four years of highschool in an envirnment like that. So anyway, to blame all things like that on the gaming industry is foolish at best.
"To know what you know and know it, and to know what you don't know and know that. That is wisdom."
--
Help us build a better map!
Why sue the parents?
The kids are the ones who committed the crime. The kids are dead. I can't really say for certain (not being a parent), but I imagine that the parents already a) feel like shit from this whole incident and b) they've already lost their kids.
No amount of money will bring the victims back from the grave. Any lawsuit over this sort of thing is just profiteering. Fuck that.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
The anti-"blame everybody else except me" angle is exactly what I was going for.
:)
Parents don't always know what's going on with their kids, and it's not always the parent's fault. Hell, when I was a teenager I frequently lied to my parents about my whereabouts, my friends, and activities whenever anything was happening that I knew they wouldn't approve of. I don't consider them bad parents, but I could have stockpiled weapons and gone on a shooting spree pretty easily if I'd gotten the urge.
I'm really getting sick of civil lawsuits in general. You want someone punished for their misdeeds, get a criminal case going.
A funny sidenote to all the anti-Doom sentiment...back in high school I used to play multiplayer Doom and Doom 2 via a BBS that would make a virtual IPX network (so's you could have 4 player over modems)...aside from other students in the area, know what the most common occupation of the players was? Lawyers.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
These kids killed because, IMHO, they got pushed so far out of normal existence, it didn't really matter anymore. Look at the media forces that push different people away and you'll find a better culprit than the one which probably kept me from getting into a number of fights. Ban elitist consumer culture, if you want to ban something evil.
--
+&x
Dang, and I didn't even think mp4 was out yet. If that's really true, I'll stick to listening to mp3s, thank you very much!
Say hello to zMac.
I agree with you wholeheartedly except when it comes to one thing, I don't think guns are a social evil. Guns are, as George Washington put it, the people's liberty's teeth.
Democracy depends upon many things, one of them being the ability of the people hold the government accountable for its actions. The people are senior to the government, not the other way around. Firearms provide the power to the people necessary to maintain that relationship. A people disempowered are a people disenfranchised. Something else that democracy depends upon is that the people be well informed. When information is controlled people are controlled. The first and second amendments to the constitution are, in a very real sense, the true foundation of our nation.
Why anyone would want to jeopardize either one is beyond me. I think that there are an awful lot of people out there who are simply not informed. They're ignorant, misled, and running as fast as they can towards a precipice that they don't know is there. The problem is that they're trying to drag the rest of us along with them.
One of the most valuable tools anyone can have is a knowledge and understanding of history. Of course the subject is itself riddled with political BS, but not everything is skewed, and its not too hard to see through the BS when it is there provided you seek out enough sources. Study history and an awful lot of things that are going on in the world and in our country today will seem almost comically familiar. Its the same old song and dance, just a different tune. History repeats itself because, while times may change, and situations may vary, human nature is static.
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Aren't they the ones that went in and shot up everyone? How exactly is it that anyone else is responsible for their actions?
Why is anyone looking to blame video games, the internet, their parents, the music the listened to, the color of their socks, etc? Put the blame where it belongs, on the shooters themselves.
I don't remember anyone wanting to blame the practice of camping for the crimes of the Unabomber. I don't remember anyone blaming Jack Daniels for the crash of the Exxon Valdez. No one blames cigar companies for what Bill Clinton did with their products. So why are we looking to blame anyone and everyone other than those truly responsible, Klebold and Harris?
Now you might be thinking that the fact that they were young meant they weren't responsible for their actions. Bullshit. They were 17 and 18 YEARS old, not 17 and 18 months old. Neither had been a child for some time.
If you're old enough to understand your actions and the consequences of them, you are old enough to be held accountable for them. I don't think anyone can argue that the two didn't know what they were doing or what the end results would be.
I really do wish that just for once the public would place blame for a crime on the person truly responsible, the criminal themself.
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Or should the US legal system be overhauled to not let the stupid sue at the drop of a hat. The US needs a loser pays clause for civil suits...that would stop the morons from blaming their moronicism on anyone with money to pay.
Its hard to believe that they aren't including the movie and TV industry in this suit. Maybe that'll happen after the made-for-tv-movie comes out and the checks clear.
...Kids with guns, lots of guns, kill people.
Excuse me, but this isn't the parents of the shooters that are suing, it is family members of one of the victims.
As a teacher, I may have noticed kids being teased, kids being ostracized, etc, but man, that has ALWAYS happened. I was tormented as a kid, and there has ALWAYS been a school bully. It's just that now, it has become fashionable to retaliate with violence of a more permanent nature.
Oh really. You don't think the torment kids go through during their school years leaves permanent emotional damage?
Did you turn your back on these tormentors and let them go, or did you do something about it? If you did nothing then you're part of the problem.
-- iCEBaLM
The people filing this suit likely know perfectly well that even if they win, nothing will change, but that is not what they want. They are exploiting the death of their family member to get money for themselves, and to me this seems like it is dishonoring the memory of those who had died. I really hope they do lose this one, there are so many precedents to follow. The only direct responsibility is that of the attackers, indirectly, maybe those who bullied them so much. Video Games didn't trigger this, if anything it may have given them a place to vent. Blame the parents for being so neglectful. Blame the bullies for unfairly tormenting people. Certainly, blame the attackers for not dealing with their problems in a better way. But don't go leeching money off anyone with deep pockets who can turn a tragic death of a child into a ticket to fame and fortune.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
A corrupt culture will attack itself to avoid taking responsibility for its own failures.
Columbine wasn't the fault of some game (although games are a part of the cultural fabric, and they do influence behavior). Columbine was the fault of you and me. We have sold our souls to the moment and sacrificed our families for the GNP. Divorce rate, illegitimacy, dual-career families, ruthless business practices, commercially shattered-conciousness: collectively these practices create critical gaps in our social fabric. School shootings will continue until men start being men, women start being women, and parents start being parents.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
I personally blame the media. All they ever show on TV is real-life blood and guts, not the pretend stuff in movies and in games. Every damned time there is a shooting or a supposed threat they swarm the scene like flies on a fresh pile of shit. They make a mountain out of a mole hill. They never tell you that violence in schools is on a massive decline. That's right! Violence in educational institutions is dropping like a rock! You'll never hear that from the media though because that's a big source of revenue for them. When Columbine happened, violence in schools was less than half of what it was in the mid-70s. It's been going down ever since. Now you may not believe me since everything you hear on TV or read on the front cover of newspapers says otherwise. They have a new "incident" every damned day. Without the real numbers in front of you, an unknowing person that just watches the news would think that our country is going to hell in a hand basket. It is true though. Violence in schools is on the decline. Do the research. Find out for yourself. I have. The irresponsible actions are actually promoting violence in our schools. They present the kids with guns and their friends with the chance to become a martyr (or at least think they will be). I don't know what we can do to fix the problem though. If we try to hold the media accountable for their piss-poor actions, they will scream "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" from the highest hilltops. I love those freedoms as much as the next guy and I wouldn't want them taken away either. Still there is something that can be done, isn't there? What about simply requiring that the media record where every piece of information for an article came from so that if they are ever accused of being irresponsible, that info can be audited by a official power to determine if they were actually reporting fact of fiction. If they falsely reported something, I think they should be forced to print a retraction and the retraction should be placed in the same position in the paper. ie, if they accuse teacher XYZ of being a horrific sex offender on the front page and later it is found out that a couple of his students set him up, than the retraction should be displayed just as prominently on the front page.
This violence in schools issue is a very touchy subject for me. I have gotten in more hallway verbal brawls over it than imaginable. My mother is a elementary school teacher in a small district. I came from a rural community with a graduating class of 32. I've been brought up hearing all this about the media and the poor job many parents today are doing for years. It wasn't until I actually did the research that I could then believe it for myself. Do you realize that last year there were more suicides by teenagers claiming to be tortured at school than there were deaths by school related shootings? That gives you something to think about. How many of you have seen those commercials that go something like "Do you part. Mentor a child."? Maybe we should. If all /.ers see part of this problem as being a lack of appropriate guidance from parents, maybe we should step up to the plate and become a mentor. I'm willing. Are you?
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I was so pissed when I started writing my comment that I goofed up the title rather badly. I meant to saw Who really cares for the kids? in reference to those people that are suing and just not letting it go for the kids sake.
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The plaintiff seeks remedies, presumably for negligence, resulting from allegations that a computer game tortiously resulted in the injury, death and mental injury suffered by the students in Columbine. Even assuming that the first amendment the claim could stand after a first amendment analysis, it seems an unlikely result.
Its very difficult to be liable under a negligence theory for the criminal intentional acts of a third party. The Plaintiff will have to prove that the defendants owed a duty of care to the particular plaintiffs (or in the case of wrongful death, the decedents), and further that the video game caused (not just in the "but for" sense, but also in the sense of legally, or proximally causing the result). This is an enormously tough row to hoe, both legally and factually.
In each case, the plaintiff will have to prove that it was forseeable that this particular individual would have injured these particular defendants, or similarly situated defendants. Unlikely. A substantial body of law tends to treat intentional torts, such as violent crimes, to be intervening acts that are not forseeable, perhaps even as a matter of law. Such an intervening act might well "cut off" the chain of proximate cause from prior conduct of a defendant.
While the abuse excuse might have (however unlikely) been a defense for those who actually did the shooting, had they lived, there is no law of which I am aware that would provide reasonable grounds for using abuse excuse as grounds in support of a plaintiff in a civil case to impute proximate cause to a vender of content for the intentional acts of a third party.
In other words, there may well be legal grounds that would, in themselves, preclude bringing the matter to trial, or admit judgment as a matter of law for the defendants. Even if it did survive summary judgment and motions to dismiss, and even if the tearful and sympathetic plaintiffs led a jury to find for them, the judge might well issue judgment for the defendants notwithstanding the verdict. Even were the judge too timid to intervene as she should in the face of a meaningful verdict, there could well be rock-solid grounds for appeal.
All that from basic tort law issues, even presuming that the first amendment does not, itself, preclude the cause of action entirely.
Better not hire any boys named Sue, they've been known to go loco.
Now imagine the lawsuits from this one! How are you going to cope?
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Well, if they were smarter geeks, the bombs they made would have wasted the cafeteria and killed far more than their guns. But they were duds.
A sick and agile mind is more dangerous than any kind of brute force.
<joke>
Now if they'd been let loose with a dozen grams of
marijuana, who knows how many may have died.
</joke>
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
No, it doesn't leave permanent damage. There's a way to remove scars: it's called maturity.
Stop trying to milk popular opinion because you were 'teased/bullied' in school. It happens to just about everyone, and just about everyone learns how to deal with it so that it stops. Those that don't hopefully mature enough to be able to get on their lives, and eveyone else ends up like you.
Does anyone have addresses or e-mails for the parties that are suing? I would just LOVE to send them a message asking why and a few other things?
I've had access to erotica and pornography for quite some time. Granted - back in MY day, we didn't have this fancy-smancy internet to click-click for porn. We had to sneak MAGAZINES. But later I got into the BBS scene and eventually stumbled on content of a more adult nature than computer discussions and game software. It doesn't hold a candle to today's high quality stills and Divx movie caps... but it was something for its time.
Nudity and sex wasn't the only thing I managed to find. I made a fair collection of bomb making information. It ranged from the idiotic to some rather interesting and complex formulas. But it was all forbidden knowledge and I had a regular arsenal of it.
I also played video games. Lots of them. Days lost at the local arcade. I played computer games. Lots of those. What the game lacked in visual carnage, I made up in gleefull attempts to rack up more kills.
I played role playing games - lots of those, too. And the grand-daddy of them was Dungeons and Dragons. My grandparents sent concerned letters to my parents chock full of literature from their church warning of the psychopath I was becoming by being exposed to such filth. My parents were concerned. I rolled my eyes and played away.
I had an interest in "gun games". Despite my parent's best attempts to wean me away from any interest in guns... I still found them interesting. I played war games. I organized games of Assasin at my high school. Photon was simply amazing.
I was also a target for ridicule in high school. And I was none too happy with my experience there.
All this has not caused me to lash out in violence of any sort.
Today, I still watch porn (occasionally with my wife). I play video games - to include the violent FPS games that are so popular. I play online RPGs. I play dice-and-paper RPGs. I do both (openrpg.com). I play paintball. I find firearms facinating... though I don't own any.
I am now a husband, a father, and a career professional. I've served in the US military, and I'm a stable citizen in civilian life.
I failed to blow up anything or go on a shooting spree. I forget to treat women as sexual objects. You'll have to forgive me if I've failed to live up to my "conditioning".
People do destructive things. I've known a few in my life. But the vice is often just a symptom of a greater problem.
Err... yes, but in Muslim countries, women are also stoned to death for being the victims of sexual assault. Not your best example.
-- I'm not evil, I'm
Careful how you point that finger...if it looks like a gun, they may exile you to a reeducation camp in northern North Dakota.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Probably; if you accidentally run over someone, though, make sure you run 'em over good, so they don't sue you.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
The message I got, was that you can surely find 12 morons to fill a jury.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I worked with a fellow who was an ex-post office employee/Vietnam Vet/raised in Idaho. I would joke with him about being a freakin' Triple Threat. He'd laugh, and tell stories about how if he ever had a run-in with anybody, he'd tell them, "If anything happens to me, my brother has your name already!"
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
That's why I recommend a sawed-off shotgun for home defense. You will hit the target. Problem is that it damages the furniture, too.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Exactly--the guns jumped up and started firing, after pulling the guys to school. Bad guns! Let's punish those guns, then. Of course, not all guns are bad.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Yeah, we know how to read, and we know that the "militia" back then was just an armed rabble of civilians. Just like us. Not some state-approved state-run organinzation. Imagine back then, the militia, run by British officers! Yes, yes...the makins of a rebellion.
The best read BY FAR I've ever had on American History is Murray Rothbards' _Conceived in Liberty_. Ripping good fun.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Interestingly, there was no organized crime before Prohibition. Prohibition (organized and implemented by Northeastern Post-Millenial Pietistic Women Suffragettes, wham bam thank you maam) was the opening for mass organized crime in the USA. At least we got "The Godfather" from it.
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Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Not to get offtopic, but I think a lot of the dialog in Canada about bullying has arisen from a number of teen suicides that directly resulted from bullying. The number of suicides in teens far outnumbers the number of kids who go to school and try to shoot their classmates.
IIRC, Suicide is the #1 cause of death (or #2?) amoung people that are under 18, in Canada -AND- the United States.. and teen suicide isn't talked about seriously in the USA either, except in the context of "avoiding depression", and feeding the kiddies antidepressants..
..don't panic
These people bringing the lawsuit are on the right track, they mailed John Carmack personally to demand that he personally prohibit any person under 17 from playing his game. He is a genius coder, he must be able to figure out a way to do it. Senseless auto-killing brainwashing ought only be reserved for those over 18
I have a personal pet theory of why school administrators and (some) parents are going apeshit about Columbine, getting kids booted for even mentioning guns, etc - That theory is that these parents / teachers / adminstrators know FULL WELL the kind of things that drive kids to shoot randomly, they know how bad it is, and they're scared shitless that their kid might get shot. (or hell, why stop with your classmates, might as well go for the office..)
That's why they want to crack down so hard, because it's something they can fix. The underlying issues are much harder. School shootings in Canada (on a smaller scale) have provoked national debates (on TV, even) about the nature of school bullying and what adminstrators can do about it. I saw no such coverage on CNN; the focus was on evil kids and black hearts.
..don't panic
The gunmen were building bombs and drawing plans of the attack in their garages, according to the police. If the parents had paid any attention at all to their children, they might have gotten an idea that something wasn't quite right...
home made bombs can kill a classroom. whats more the attacker doesnt even have to be there the time. what do you want to do? ban all household chemicals which could possibly be used to make a bomb?
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
You seem to be confusing games with reality.
The examples you gave are the conditioning of an individual to behave in a certain way because they see others behaving the same way.
Using your examples of muslim women and swearing etc, people behave that way because people around them behave that way.
Quite how you link playing a game with violence in it to actual violence is unclear. Muslims don't respect women more because they played a game about respecting women. Kids dont kill people because they played a game about it either.
If however, kids say others killing people in real life that would of course make them more likely to copy that behaviour.
Here's another example:
If the people a kid spends most of their time with (ie, parents) clearly demonstrate that they don't give a fuck about the kid then that conditioning will teach the child to behave in the same way to others. In extreme cases this can easliy end up with somebody getting shot. I expect when that heppend the parents would know deep down that it was their fault, but probably live in denial and try to blame others and convince the world it wasn't them via the publicity of a lawsuit against games companies.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
They can't cope because they never had to cope. Coping is a skill that is learned, like any other. A toddler who bawls his/her eyes out about going to bed, if ignored, will learn to cope, while if the parent comes in and "poor babies" him/her to death, the child will become a spoiled brat. (Assuming this method of parenting continues throughout the child's life.)
Organisms (yes, including humans) adapt quite well to their environments. People do what is demanded of them. Ask a child psychologist that doesn't have a political agenda.
I'll probably get nailed by an American (US) moderator, ad nauseum. Carmack shouldn't have to put up with this.
If we shipped all the lawyers in the world to some island, what kind of society would they build?
"The first thing we do..."
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Because the parents of shool-shooting-types will probably buy their kids the games. Only people like me, who learned a lot about 3D graphics programming from playing Quake (seriously), will suffer (and I'm not exactly going to go around shooting people).
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I overcame the teasing easily (believe me, there was a lot), because my parents always told me that those people's opinions didn't matter in the end ("You'll be the one with the good job making money", etc).
Your parents really make the difference of how well you take being a geek at school. I guess you didn't have the same support I did.
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Guns are entirely safe when used properly.
ROTFL. I suspect you don't even see the irony of this statement.
Or maybe it's just that nobody has "used a gun properly" toward you. The proper use of a gun still involves sending a projectile at high speed. Toward a living thing.
Proper usage of a gun is to KILL something. Last I checked, killing something doesn't qualify as "safe". Or do you want to go tell Death Row in Alabama that the state's electric chair is "safe"? Somehow I doubt that would affect their fears.
"But wait," you chime in, "you don't have to kill anything when you shoot a gun! I shoot at targets all the time!" Well, there are plenty of ways to do the same thing without launching lethal projectiles. Surely you can shoot a paintball gun for target practice, for example. Or fire rubber bullets (which are still lethal when used like the police use them - ie not firing them at the ground first).
The only purpose of a gun is to kill. I wouldn't call that "safe" in any manner. Perhaps when properly used they're safe to people not in the line of fire... which meant that there was nothing unsafe about their usage in Columbine.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
My favorite online mag has a mention of him as well, as part of a skeptical look in the whole recovered memories thing that he seems to be involved with.
o n.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9609/conspiracy.html
My balony detector is going off hardcore.
Another articles that might pertain discusses the bullcr*p that is "Subliminal Messaging" http://www.csicop.org/si/9204/subliminal-persuasi
Does anyone know of a single peer-reviewed paper that has been published making the link from viewing violence to persueing violence that has since held up to scurtiny?
I've heard a lot of anecdotal eviedence, and occasionally about a poorly done study. I have yet to hear of one that has held up to a skeptics scrutiny though.
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RobK
Myddrin
You forgot, "Now I'm not racist, but..."
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
What % of people who play video games go on a rampage? So this is new? Kids exposed to violence? fake violence at that. What about kids who see people killed in thier nieghborhoods? How about those kids who live in areas of the world where people are shot every day? with real guns? What about kids in history who have seen armies come through and slaughter villages? If these people turned thier energy toward helping stop real violence, maybe then they could make a difference.
l
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/war/kids.htm
http://www.unicef.org/voy/meeting/war/warhome.htm
http://www.warchild.org/
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
As a Nebraskan, I wasn't terribly surprised to see the lawyer for this suit was named as "John DeCamp." Those of us in Nebraska have long experience with this man's erratic behavior, wild charges, publicity seeking and general fuzzy-headedness (just my opinion, of course). For example, do a Google search on "John DeCamp Nebraska." You'll get to read about a long series of unsubstantiated litigation claiming DeCamps' clients as victims of cultism and satanic abuse . . . and that's just for starters. Sigh.
"When I grow up, I'll be stable."
this is all very true, screw the ppl who blame producers of porn, video games and music for this.
screw the even more stupid idiots that think the fault is those who made the trenchcoat-"mafias" life to hell.
the fault is only the society and the lifestyle.
no, this is not a troll, its my personal view.
Take your right wing views about the Big Bad Liberal Media "America Should Eat Itself" Conspiracy and put it somewhere painful.
Censorship is hardly limited to the right wing. In the last US election the loudest calls for censorship came from Joe Lieberman, and let's not forget Tipper's crusade against naughty words in music.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Well, I think that people sure are more "open" (pardon me the bad choice of words) to violence, since we see so much of it in movies and hear about it in music, BUT I bet that each time each and one of you see someone who got killed on TV you tell yourself "What has our society come to?" or "What a hideous thing to do." Sure we may be less frightened to see someone be killed, but we never dissociate the fact that it's bad, except if we already had some problems in the head.
"The answer to the Question of Life, the Universe and Everything is... 42"
While i agree with you that there are a lot of concerned parents out there (they have a reason to be concerned), that is not why everyone picks on videogames or any kid that puts "shoot" and a classmates name in the same sentence.
That's why they want to crack down so hard, because it's something they can fix.
No, they don't fix a thing by sending a kid that was bullied home for three days. The kid will only learn to keep his trap shut. And no, they don't fix a thing by banning videogames either, because most will ignore that ban anyway and only learn to hide things from their parents.
These kids have proplems. Some need professional psychiatric help. They need to be found. Many of those kids need people to talk to, their parents, teachers, social workers. That means time. Time many parents don't have because they work hard at two or three jobs, time the teachers aren't paid for and time of social workers which the richest country on earth choose not to employ. And time is money. Either money the hard working parents don't earn, or money professionals need to be paid with.
So there is the solution. Talk to the kids about their problems, have someone guard the schoolyard for bullies. Build places where kids can go after school and where some socialworker ensures that things don't get out of hand. But it's an expensive solution.
Now if you don't want to pay all that money, but want to quiet the parents worries there's an other option: do something, anything, and make a lot of mediaruckus about it. Pick out something like games and say "Hey, those games turned the child a killer", disregarding the fact, that in other countries children play the same games without killing half the school. And send children home for three days if they say the bad word at school (no, not "fuck", "gun").
A cheap solution, but one that won't help much i think.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
When this is over, can I sue my parents for getting a divorce when I was a young kid. Or sue my father for making me move around the country every two years? "It disrupted my life and I could have turned out better."
Not only could you sue, you'd have a great chance of winning. Maybe if you commit some henious crime first, you could blame your actions on your childhood. Once you are aquitted because obviously you're not to blame - responsible but not guilty et all - you could sue your father into the poorhouse and like the American Dream!
Or, move to Canada where we watch American stations and ignore what's happening here.
The fact is, at least in Canada, you are legally responsible for the actions of others if you serve brooze at your house (guess workplace is similar). As corny as it may seem considering these are adults who should be responsible for their own actions it is the law.
And so if someone breaks the law and you get injured because of it, why can you not sue them for damages?
Don't let things like morals and ethics get in the way of a juicy lawsuit.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I seem to remember the same sort of cr@p over D&D a decade or so ago. Only thing is it's not paper and dice any more, and the weapons are a little more sophisticated.
Sh1t happens daily, i'ts just a matter of how stinky it is.
Come on ... the kids that did this were nuts!
Why should it be any more complicated than that?
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"Counting in octal is just like counting in decimal--if you don't use your thumbs."
Please give your mod points to others, Im at the cap. They will appreciate it more
This lawsuit surprises me! This sounds more like what Isiah Scholls(one of the Columbine victims) father would have done! He has been going around sueing everyone in site! He is blaming everyone for his sone being killed. But the Sanders family, this is a surprise. They have been very passive and quiet basically.
On a side note:
I just wish the friggin' media would leave the Columbine thing alone! Let us all heal! Every time they put stuff all over the television it opens up old wounds.
The Truth is a Virus!!!
You know. I have the hardest time figuring out who these people are politically, in reference to the people behind this rediculous class-action lawsuit. Are they liberal Democrats or fundy Replublicans? IIRC, the Democrats, liberal or not, are usally on the "stay out of my personal or family decisions" but "fund my needs" side of the argument. The republican fundies are "this is how you should make personal and family decisions" but "stay out of my capitol investment" and "fund it yourself" side of the argument.
The reason I muse over this is because I want to correctly address the right party when I curse them. Based on the above logic, I could say, "Fscking fundies," but I'll refrain. Instead, I'll call them "Fscking clueless jerks."
--
assert(expired(knowledge));
> No, it doesn't leave permanent damage. There's a way to remove scars: it's called maturity.
This reminds me of those inane arguments you used to hear about corporal punishment - "well it never did me any harm". Or the arguments that smoking must be harmless because Uncle Fred smoked and lived to 80.
Yes a lot of people are bullied. Yes most people don't go beserk. But not everyone can cope with dialy insults, threats and humiliation. And not all bullying is alike - it goes way beyond 'a bit of teasing'. And while most people may be able to get on with your lives some are less resiliant.
Adults do not have to put up with this kind of behaviour and nor should children.
Why aren't they suing the school for creating an environment where people felt so hopeless, so worthless, that they had nothing to lose by going on a murderous rampage.
Instead of suing over violent games (which in fact enable the kids to express theire violence - which is build-in the human genes - without arming anybody) they should sue the goverment that allows these kids to have access to guns!
When I looked south of border and see the americans wanting to ban sex and violence in the media and in the other hand is letting people get almost any guns they want, I'm not sure if I must laugh or cry!
It seems that the americans prefers to loose free speech as long as they keep the ability to kill the neighboors.
now I can sue slashdot for all the time I've wasted at work, not to mention the trauma of being moderated down...
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---- I made the Kessel Run in under 11 parsecs.
"they're not even a real country anyway..."
nuff said.
Not to get offtopic, but I think a lot of the dialog in Canada about bullying has arisen from a number of teen suicides that directly resulted from bullying. The number of suicides in teens far outnumbers the number of kids who go to school and try to shoot their classmates.
I can also think of at least one high profile example of bullying turned murder here in BC, the case of Reena Virk. She was a teen who was brutally beaten and left to die by a gang of kids, for little more reason than because she was different.
And while I don't hear too many people in Canada blaming all these incidents on computer games, remember that BC, Canada is one of the first places in North America to try to put age restrictions on video games.
Knives can be used silently. Convenient for whacking people that trust you...
Incidentally, the two largest single-perp mass murders in the country were, if memory serves, the OK City bomb and the Happy Land Social Club murders. The former used fertilizer; the latter used a match and gasoline. Better ban 'em all, eh?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Explain the statistics that show that concealed-carry reduces violent crime. You'll find plenty of them in peer-reviewed research...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
*shrug*
;-) And, depending on whom you believe, he has ultimate responsibility anyway.
Sue God. He made people *enjoy* these games, after all.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
...which were illegal anyway. The minors possessing handguns, anyway -- that's why they didn't buy them directly.
Not all fights can be won with nonaggression, either.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
That's why they take the guns FIRST.. to reduce the chances of having an effective uprising. And that's why registration, or the lack thereof, is important -- it's led to confiscation before, both in this country and in others.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Nah. You want to go after Pacman? Find morbidly obese people and encourage *them* to sue; it encouraged gluttony, after all.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
And if schools weren't a soft target -- where it's generally easy to smuggle in weapons, but very few people, if any are supposed to *have* them, let alone are good with them, would they still have targetted a school?
I've never heard of somebody walking into a police station and trying a mass shooting. Or a gun club. Or a military base. Ever wonder why?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Military training usually teaches you that running amok, charging about and shooting people is a pretty easy way to paint a target on your back. They don't do it. They're also taught to point guns only at targets -- be they cardboard, or simulated or actual armed combatants.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Hm. Perhaps it's possible to replace the face textures in _Combat Mission_?
Then you could mow 'em down en masse with artillery, machine guns, rifles and tank shells to your heart's content.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Well what i find most appaling is the fact that the games ALONE are being blamed. Do they really think they have evidence to support that? There are millions of kids that are not turned into 'monsters' as the article so nicely claims. It seems to be that the ones that are turned into 'monsters' are the ones being harrassed everyday.
That alone is not what won that suit however. It was the fact that the McDs in question had done reseach, and knew that A) coffee at that temp. would cause 3rd degree burns and B) they knew thiers was hot enough to cause such burns, but did nothing to correct it.
True, but i think the point is that if she did spill it it shouldn't have caused her 3rd degree burns.
Actually, there is signifigant proof in the order that children who play video games are more creative and less violent.
And I quite frankly happen to like American "Tits on a Stick" thank you.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
From the article:
I don't blame him, what with its blocky, 320x200x256-color graphics, 2.5D engine, MIDI music, and lack of any TCP/IP compatible multiplayer capability! Why, the game looks like it's, oh, six years old or something! I'd be appalled too!
(I shudder for the day when the media realizes the existence of Half-Life or Unreal Tournament...)
I wish those "trenchcoat maffia" had broken into the lawfirm that is currently putting this class action suit forward and shot everyone there. This is the REAL problem with our society. Why aren't their less shootings in schools and more shootings in law firms.
Someone you trust is one of us.
you might say violence is bad, but it is like saying that anger is bad or fear is bad.
There's a difference: violence always hurts other people; anger and fear (without action) can at most hurt only the person feeling those emotions, and usually help the person feeling those emotions (at least evolutionarily).
The shareholder is always right.
It is The Evil John Carmack who is actually behind this law suit -- as a cynical conceit via which he hopes to pawn off more copies of his obsolete video game PONG, er, I mean DOOM.
Seastead this.
Gee I use my guns to kill birds. Guess thats two purposes. Oh and I can shoot at targets too, make that three.
I must be getting old, and my memory must be fading, but I don't remember hearing stories of kids dropping anvils on other kids heads after watching too many loony toons. There has always been violence in the media. I happen to agree that you should shield younger children from too much violent content. The problem is that the video game manufacturers are putting ratings on the games already, but parents are still letting their children play those games.
It is not the games industry's job to raise your children. It's not even their job to raise the children of those people you think are doing a bad job of raising their children. If society feels that selling these games to children under 17 is that bad, then they should lobby their politicians for a law preventing the sale of that material to children.
What bothers me is the increasing trying to sue and finacially harm companies which are selling legal products in a legal manner. This lawsuit should be dismissed, and the Sanders' should have to pay the legal fees of the game companies.
The Sanders' families suffered a great loss, but it's not the game companies fault. They and their greedy lawyers shouldn't be allowed to distort the court system in order to get some kind of warped revenge for this tradegy.
this is such a joke, parents should started taking some responsibility and stop blaming games for their children's behaviour. it makes me sick to see how quickly some parents would rather point their fingers at "violent games" instead of owning up to the fact that maybe the reason their kids are the way they are is because of bad parenting.
just my $.02
E.
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This Post has been brought to you by the letter "E".
Five billion dollars. That is an absolutely insane amount of money. Not to be insensitive, but all the people who were killed at Columbine are NOT WORTH THAT MUCH. 5 billion dollars is enough money for thousands of people to live off of their whole lives.
Now, I honestly don't believe a human life is something you can place a value on, but when you are forced to, 5 billion is insanely excessive.
This is all completely ignoring the fact that the game companies are not responsible for the actions of Harris and Klebold. That is just in-fucking-sane.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I just don't know it yet. But when I consider everything I do for entertainment, it is the only conclusion I can come to.
1. I play nothing but extremely violent video games. Q3A, UT, Fighting games, I even got a real kick out of playing Grand Theft Auto.
2. I listen to mostly metal. Bands I like include, Nothingface(the best fucking band ever, check them out), Spineshank, Slipknot(crazy fuckers), Metallica, Pantera, Ultraspank(not so heavy), Godsmack(oh my, Blasphemy!), Staind, Korn(although I can't really stand them anymore, their first album was good though).
3. I am a geek. I really like the Internet. I have a job doing Internet stuff. I was picked on in school for a long time.
4. I suffer from pretty severe depression. I even contemplated suicide at a really young age. I have it under control now, but OMG, I could snap any time and go postal! Woohoo! Fear me, I am mentally FUCKED IN THE HEAD!
5. I've spent a great many hours killing my friends in video games. Sometimes I even get really into it and say stuff like, "Eat shit and die Fucker!!!" when I'm about to make a kill. Man, I must be warped, killing my friends and all.
REALITY:
1. Violent games are just entertainment. Why so much violence? Well, it's pretty simple, there is nothing in life as thrilling as the fear of death, as well as fighting for survival. In a video game you can capture part of this thrill without the unpleasant stress you'd experience IRL. You'd have to be extremely mentally disturbed to confuse video games with real life, this is not the responsibility of video game makers, it is the responsibility of parents.
2. Listening to Metal is a great way to release aggression, at least for me. I promise, I'm not evil... *evil grin* ; )
3. Geeks are smart, we don't go on killing sprees. Assholes who wish they could be in the "In crowd" and be bullies do. They are the same kind of people as the worst bullies, just dealt a different hand of cards in life.
4. Clinical Depression is a physical problem. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It does not make someone insane, it does not make someone want to kill other people, it does not make someone overly aggressive. The only danger depression causes is to one's self. Depression can be treated and controlled in many ways. One can adjust one's attitude and find things to cheer them up. Drugs! There are great drugs today that correct the chemical imbalance that causes depression, usually one drug or another will work with no side effects for an individual.
5. They're just games! Good God people, get a fucking grip! The only people living in a fantasy world are the dumb fuckers blaming shit on other people. Learn some fucking parenting skills. Lesson 1, don't use the foul language I keep using ; ) Lesson 2, DON'T FUCKING SHELTER YOUR CHILDREN TOO MUCH, THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH REAL LIFE!!
Seriously, real life is not all peachy and happy. People are murdered every day. People are raped, beaten, robbed, etc. etc. IMHO, children NEED to be exposed to sex and violence, and along with that they need to be shown compassion and kindness. That's how people learn! My parents didn't censor me at all, I played violent games all my life. I watched violent films all my life. I saw films with sexual content at a fairly early age. I am not violent, and I am not a rapist. Murder or rape has NEVER crossed my mind, even in the most extreme of circumstances. However, I have used violence to defend myself(not often). I have also had violent acts committed against me when I was young, but because I was mature enough and understood it, I was able to deal with it and was not affraid to go out in public again. Everyone I know who has lived an extremely sheltered life cannot deal with any type of confrontation, is extremely affraid of slightly bad neighborhoods/crowds etc., and have difficulty dealing with injured/sick people etc. THAT IS NOT GOOD!
Sheltering does not create gentle kind human beings, it creates cowards.
Enough of my ramblings....
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
These kinds of lawsuits get heard more than you would think. That is why our legal system is getting so fucked up, people _WIN_ stupid lawsuits like this.
That is why, in America, you can sue when you burn yourself with coffee. That is why, in America, you can sue someone who saved your life with CPR for breaking your rib. That is why, in America, you can sue someone who saved you from a burning building because you will have to live the rest of your life with scars. That is why, in America, you can sue gun manufacturers because someone murdered someone with their brand of gun. And the list goes on...
That is why, in America, you can sue game manufacturers for making violent games, and you have a chance of winning.
Get your head out of your ass and see the world around you.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Shows what you know about muslim countries. I married into a liberal muslim family and even they still aren't big on the respecting women thing (for example, they've got a lot of daughters, but only because they thought they had to have a son, so they kept having kids until a son was born, then they stopped). The more radical muslims are far, far worse.
h tm
Ever hear about honor killings? This kind of murder is almost sanctioned by many islamic governments (although the Quran itself is not big on the idea at all). Here's a link to the first hit in Google on "honor killings:"
http://www.uchastings.edu/cgrs/campaigns/honor.
The short and ugly reason behind the way women are treated (forced to wear full-body coverings, not allowed to speak, etc) is that Islam considers men to be uncontrollable sexual animals. If they even get so much as a hint of a woman's sexuality, then they will not be able to stop themselves from assaulting her. Because of this attitude - this conditioning, women, especially unaccompanied women, are often in far more danger out in public in muslim countries than they would be in similar circumstances in a western country.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Now, I haven't bought a game in ages, but don't most games these days have a rating on them? Or at least it says on the box "extreme violence"? Maybe that's just in Canada, or just in BC, I don't know.
In any case, if a kid is playing Quake for hours a day and parents don't know, then it's probably their fault. All they need to do is knock on the kid's bedroom door and see what's up.
The ammunition is strictly controlled.
Guns don't kill people, bullets do.
Thats why I support a comprehensive ammunition control law rather than a gun control law. Think about it, ammunition is expendable and perishable. Within months of taking bullets and gun powder off the shelves no one would be shooting anything with all those shiny guns.
Ok, I don't post often, but this is too much for me.
First, there are no computer game companies responsible for the actions of anyone. If I tell you jump off a bridge and you do it, and I responsible? No! Next thing we see are going to be parents of teenagers who end up with children suing porn companies and book publishers because they publish sexual content. Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey needs to get some common sense.
If these people win, I'm done with America. I'm moving to Canada. The legal system here is beyond control when I can sue because I'm an idiot. Don't get me completely wrong though, there are still some good law suits out there the help protect the American people, but when you are suing because you spilled coffee on yourself, or because you're reading a superman comic and you try to fly like superman. That's just too much. And people win these cases. How I ask you?
When this is over, can I sue my parents for getting a divorce when I was a young kid. Or sue my father for making me move around the country every two years? "It disrupted my life and I could have turned out better." I can just see the headlines now "Son suing father over incident that happened 20 years ago."
I think it's time for me to write a script to send the DOJ about six million emails telling them they need to work on this system a little. I don't think that what happened should have happened, but that doesn't mean this is how you deal with it.
~Travis
I don't by any means want to diminish the horrific nature of the acts at Columbine and other such places, but where has personal responsibility gone? It strikes me as amazing that the first thing people want to do is externalize the causes of these tragedies, to find scapegoats to blame for the actions of a misguided (and in some cases, truly ill IMHO) few.
... well, to EVERYTHING. It's really a shame.
On second thought, I guess it's not that amazing. It's just far simpler to point the finger of blame at others, rather than acknowledge that part of the problem might have been in the homes and family lives of the shooters.
(Preamble for below: I'm Canadian, and I live in the U.S. - have for some years now).
The American (it's primarily in the U.S. AFAIK and yes, I've travelled extensively off the north american continent) culture of victimization is an astounding thing. Personal responsibility takes a back seat to finger pointing and blame mongering. It's sad to see reasonable, mature adults, no matter how distraught they are, abdicating their responsibility as parents in order to blame others for the sad events that resulted largely from their home situations.
In the U.S. the media has helped entrench this culture, making it all right to blame external forces and people for everything from bad breath to
-drin
If doom had big titties flopping around you wouldn't be seeing them in the hands of children. We should pool our resources. Kill two birds with one stone.
It's just that simple.
Poor CP0, even Data has digital jizz.
Gur svggrfg funyy fheivir lrg gur hasvg znl yvir. Jr zhfg ercrng.
let's sue the schools for ignoring the bullying within 'em.
Not to jump on a soapbox or anything, but there's not really any single culpable party here. The administration shouldn't ignore bullying (teen suicides still outpace school shootings by a 100-ish:1 ratio, give or take).
Parents should obviously pay attention to their kids rather than depend on laws and schools to raise their children for them, but who are we to say that the parents didn't do everything in their power to help their kids? Is it _maybe_ possible that their kids were bullied and just plain refused to reach out to anyone for help and instead snapped?
Let's just sue ourselves and get it over with.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
great, just to let everyone know I'm starting a class action law-suit against the creators of PAC MAN. why you ask? well pac man let me to take drugs, from the early days when i first started playing the game made it perfectly clear to me that eating flashing dots(pills) i would become super strong and could eat(kill) ghosts(my enimies).. Because of this my life has been destroyed by continually eating flashing pills so i can kill ghosts.. i assume there is at least 100 million other people who ahve played pac-man and are entitled to join my class action lawsuit seeking damanges = 46quadrillion dollars...
Oh yeah.. And it's the game industry's fault right? Never mind the violence on TV.. Next we'll see these people suing CNN for broadcasting news from conflicts around the world.
"If you consistently expose...". C'mon.. Please.. It's not as if we are talking about kids here that use all their time gaming.. These were high-school kids for crying out loud. And if they really used that much time in front of a computer playing Doom/Quake/whatever maybe the parents should have done something about it? Oh yeah.. Forgot.. They sued them too..
By your definition we should ban all kinds of exposure: games, movies, news, cartoons.. And we can't let the kids play now can we?
This is just another typical example of capitalization on a tradegy.. "Let's get as much money out of this as possible".. I got traumatized reading the article.. Maybe I should sue the suers?
And watch out 'cause I play Q3 on a regular basis. I might shoot you just for the fun of it.. That was sarcasm in case you missed it..
Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
Blame Can-a-da...
Obviously they're grieving, but can't they put two and two together? Do they really enjoy living in a world where nobody is responsible for their behavior and any industry can be sued for any reason? Where doctors no longer give the medical advice they should because any suggestion opens them up to a malpractice lawsuit? Where a bartender can be sued for serving a martini to someone who later goes out and gets in a car accident? Where is it going to stop?
Think of the huge costs businesses (and some individuals) pay in insurance, legal fees, etc. to maneuver through these webs of litigation. These are costs that are passed on to every one of us. Something needs to happen. This system needs to be destroyed, but I have no idea how. People need to be responsible for their own behavior again. I wish I could just TALK to these people, I don't think they would listen to me, but it would make me feel a lot better.
Yeah, I totally understand. Dated graphics, 2.5D environment, limited plot depth. DOOM was totally appalling, all right.
DOOM? D-O-O-M???? That game was the tamest of the tame. I am appalled that Todd was such a cheapskate that the PC he provided for his family was so lame that DOOM was all it could run. Who else but the owners of 8-year-old hand-me-down PCs still plays DOOM in the 21st century?
Talk about your digital divide - there it is!
Edith Keeler Must Die
SunOS electabuzz 5.8 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-Enterprise
$ echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb15CB32EF3AF9C0E5D727
176 is unimplemented
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Not everyone runs Linux.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Amen to that, brother. Frank Zappa and John Denver were both a boon to those of us with a shred of respect for civil liberties. May they both rest in peace.
What I despise is the fact that these politicians (and now lawyers) are barking up the wrong tree. When kids play violent video games, it's a symptom of a problem, not the cause. Same with music. No Ozzy song ever made me feel like killing myself...(now Britney Spears, on the other hand...)
Although I think this case will be thrown out, I do worry that it will have a chilling effect on companies making video games, jus like Tipper Stickers have had a chilling effect on the availability of political music (Rage Against the Machine notwithstanding).
"You done taken a wrong turn."
-Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
good point. I can't imagine the writers of the constitution were envisaging fully automatic weaponry when they enshined the right to bear arms. A muzzle-loading rifle, a sword, a pointy stick maybe...an uzi? doubt it...
Guns don't kill people.
Computer Games kill people.
</Sarcasm>
If these people are serious about engaging in such an expensive form of therapy, they may as well aim at a useful target: the two-shells short of a magazine ****wits at the NRA who have been peddling a mischievously edited misquotation from the US constitution for last few decades as part of their campaign to ensure that any dickhead can get hold of firearms with less checking and training than is needed for a driving license.
Except the fact that cars are made for solving transportation problems, but guns are designed only for killing.
Although I really would like to see private car owning banned as well, but that's a completely separate issue... (as is the fact that I actually don't see anything wrong in killing people - slaughtering animals is IMHO the deadly sin number one and generally worth immediate capital punishment).
______________
______________
OTTERS RULE.
There is a huge difference between conditioning and playing games. How many people have been forced to play a violent game? Hmm... I don't see any hands. You play the game because it's fun. It's a form of escapism. You get to be the big, heavily armed guy (or gal) on the block. You get to see people and things blow up. I enjoy playing these games, and I'll admit I've thought that having a rocket launcher in the car would make my communiting much better.
The big difference is that I know the difference between real life and a game. Anyone that blurs the line too much would have problems with books, movies, tv shows, or even the bible. I find your arguement as bad now as I did when people were using it to say Dungeons and Dragons would make kids killers too because it made them think of killing and casting spells.
The US commits more homicides without guns than the totals for many other countries. We're a violent people, not a bunch of violent guns. Countries spawned by violent revolutions tend to have larger crime rates; it goes with the territory.
We have fewer gun crimes per gun than any nation I have found statistics for. If it's the fault of the weapon, shouldn't the ratio be about constant?
OTOH, which country would you not want to go to war with?
Just like matches... (though guns are not nearly as effective)
> Frankly, this is a silly statement. If you want proof of that, just look north. AFAIK, Canada does not
> have an equivalent to the 2nd amendment. To say that Canada is in danger of becoming a fascist state
> is completely ridiculous. Ditto for most Europeans countries, I would suspect.
Germany in the 1930s doesn't count? One of their first steps was to remove citizen owned guns for "safety" reasons.
I am saying this half jokingly, but could the video game companies sue the parents and lawyers for slander? They do not go around saying how their bad parenting was responsible do they?
Of course, gun companies didn't have anything to do with that.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
If you consistently expose people to sex and violence they grow to accept it.
Violence is bad. Please, can you explain to me how sex is bad?
(BTW, I do agree that there's too much "useless" violence on TV, but before restricting that, I'd start by restricting guns, which do far more damage)
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
It's funny how things are different from one place to another. I I had posted this same comment on a canadian forum, I would probably have been modarated down for "stating the obvious". Now, posting this on an anerican forus (which is what Slashdot mostly is), it's a flamebait...
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Besides, guns are probably less deadly than bombs
Bombs are less deadly that nuclear weapons, so let's distribute bombs to everyone!
Guns are merely a tool.
It is true. Better education would reduce crime. However, if people can't (or can with a lot more trouble) get a gun, they can't shoot at anyone. On the other if everybody carries a gun, all it takes is for someone to go nut for 10 seconds and you have a couple bodies.
There's a vicious circle about guns:
Q: Why do you carry a gun?
A: To protect from people with guns.
Yeah, surely guns are useful!
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves...
I should be some type of Don Juan due all the Japanese dating sims I play on my computer... I wonder why girls hardly talk to me? :-)
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
The emphasis on guns and violent media detracts from the root cause behind most of these incidents: bullying. I want to see a day where CNN stats shoving mikes in the faces of jocks etc and starts asking "what did YOU say to to the shooter and WHEN did you say it". It would be great television and give the victims a new lawsuit target. Most jocks are specifically trained in their aggressive and violent behavior by the school sports department, which usually has the deepest pockets in the school organization anyway. Don't forget to sue the coaches.
AC is making a good point. If you are going to go out on a limb and say something like "X is a factor" you need to provide some evidence. I know plenty of people that both enjoy pornography and are sickened by the amount of sexual violence in the world.
>>Yes, I am. Those points are irrelevant unless
>>you can show that they actually have anything
>>to do with sex crimes.
>I dont have to know that. It's been shown
>before. Read up on psychology and sexual
>behavior.
Actually, the point is that lots of people "know" things that are patently false...there is a lot of pseudoscience out there, and a lot of prominent (read: mediagenic) psychologists have gotten burned with silly ideas. (superpredators?)
If you want to make an argument by authority, you need to cite the source so that readers can see if it is a qualified authority.
While I will concede that some percentage of people are capable of being negatively influenced by porn, you've done nothing to bolster your assertion that even the most "degrading, abusive" examples of such have an effect on the average person.
Also, what about agressive team sports like tackle football, hockey, etc. These sports actively encourage real world violence, but I haven't heard much about banning them.
(firewall: I don't have a problem with these sports, I've played them and I think they are a lot of fun. My point is that everything in the environment can contribute to a person's psyche, and it's stupid to blame small parts of it for the total person's behavior)
Ok... calm down. Take a drink. Maybe pop some valium or something. Then go back and re-read the post that you were replying to.
He said "I can better see how they might blame". Not "They should blame" or "I agree lets blame all the media companies".
Then he said:
"But I still wouldn't blame the MPAA, RIAA, and much less, a gaming company"
So um... besides that, yea I agree. this is silly, are these people just stupid and looking to lash out against percieved wrongs? or are they money grubbing amoral wackos who are looking to capitalise on their own pain?
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Well kinda yea. Actually there has always been some sort of prohibition. Alcohol prohibition was the big one that turned some crooks into very wealthy men (like Capone and the other famous gangsters).
However, there have always been "protection rackets" and the like. There are lots of places for organized crime to dig in and make money. However, prohibition of products is their real gold mine. Organized crime of one sort or another has been around for centuries. (like early Colonists who used to smuggle goods around to skirt colonial taxation).
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Well in theory you could do it for a couple of hundred (less if you have free scrap metal and or charcoal) by building a small foundry and then building a lathe (believe it or not, a guy by the name of Gingery did it, and published a set of books on it)
For the more practical person though, a metal lathe can be bought for less than a thousand. A drill press can then be made, or purchased for another couple of hundred.
You don't need much more. My guess is an initial investment of $1200 or so would set a person well on their way to producing illicit guns. Even making proper bullets would be trivial with this sort of equipment. (if its not quite ideal)
Oh, need to cast something? You can MAKE a simple furnace and setup a simple foundry for around $50 or so. Works great for bullets of all kinds.
My cousin has a bullet filling setup. Simple press. One could easily be custom made with little more than the lathe and drill press.
crude black powders wont prove hard to make.
remember... we are thinking black market here. Few are going to spend the bucks to "do it right" or put in real quality control. They will cut corners as muchj as possible. Even if 15 out of every hundred of these guns blows up within the first dozen times you shoot it - the producers will STILL make a mint.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
I would go the other way.
What value do guns provide to society? Well what value do kiddie bopper boy groups provide to society? What value does alcogol provide to our society?
I think it is plain: government enforced prohibition does not work. When a person wants something, they will obtain it. If there are enough people who want something and are willing to pay money for it, someone will produce it.
There will be arms rings "diverting" guns from legal shipments to the police and armed forces (well I supose they already exist for some things).
There will be illegal production houses making guns. Its not hard. It would take less to teach someone how to use a few machine tools to make a gun than to make drugs.
Sure, these wouldn't be highquality guns. Hell, alot would probably blow up in peoples hands after a few rounds... but they would still be guns.
Why make an even larger black market? Hasn't our government been funding black markets by creating niches for them for entirely too long?
Are there things that our government needs to prohibit? Sure, actions. We prohibit murder, we prohibit rape. However, at least those are crimes with victems and evidence, we can hunt for them.
Owning a gun would be another crime with no victem. Another product that can be easily made, transported and sold. AAnother niche black market.
Do we really need to make organized crime organizations more profitable?
They always have effects on communities that are many times worst than the ills that we try to prohibit in the first place.
Just look at alcohol prohibition (which made alcohol many times more available to children than previously, or currently). Or drug prohibition.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
> The making of guns is FAR from simple. If you
> truly believe someone would build one at home
> from common household parts your a moron.
You can't make methamphetamine from "common household chemicals", but the chemicals are easy to obtain. Hence the explosion of in-home meth labs (which is much more dangerous to make than guns).
Can you do it with "common household" stuff. Hell no. But buying a lathe doesn't draw much attention. With a lathe you can make a bullett filling tool, barrels, etc.
Few hundred dollar investment.
> By your logic then rape should be legal because
> people will just do it anyway since it's
> illegal.
Only if it had no victem. It also has little comercial value. Guns can be produced easily in a makeshift gunmaking shop. Turning your basement into a gunsmith shop could be done easily and woul dbe harder to detect, than a pot garden (which can be found with infrared cameras from helicopters)
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Colorado Springs, home to two presidential shooters and various assorted religious nutbags
Congressman Tom "who cares what the voters think?" Tancredo
Ted Bundy
-Legion
Well, perhaps. But I was desensitized by the nightly news long before I ever saw my first FPS.
-Legion
However, you didn't come to any conclusion. So the problem is not so trivial as you may want to portray it.
;-) What happens when you put pressure on a system? The system fights back by heating up. When you limit people's expression, you deny them authority and responsibility of themselves. That is what's been happening in the past, and is why we have more of everything bad now. When people reclaim their power, the process is ugly, but there's no other way. Though, it doesn't have to be so ugly if only people step down from their pedestals and accept higher wisdom and guidance (NOT from me though ;).
"And people like to pretend, probably because they enjoy porn and violence, that it doesn't harm people, but anyone who can seriously believe this is quite frankly mad."
This is not very accurate. Porn and violence on TV have never directly harmed anyone except for casual accidents on the set. To blame the media for something you (or anyone) did is a very immature attitude. As humans, we should be aware that we can control our own behaviour whenever we want to by introspection. You can blame someone or something else all you want, but fact is that blame itself is irrational and only exists in our minds. Without realizing this, you can never truly solve any problem. Relying on others to change is a game of chance at best, with guaranteed negative odds in the long term. Nothing can grow by waiting for others to grow.
There has been lots of molestation, rape and violence before TV and media. However, it was usually hushed down within families and organizations. This is sadly a part of human nature. The reason this is depicted on media now is because we're somehow going to have to deal with what has been done in the past. Fleeing from it, will just make it hunt us down. We are fascinated by history, without realizing it will repeat again and again until we reclaim our power and understanding.
"If you consistently expose people to sex and violence they grow to accept it. It's as obvious as anything. It's conditioning."
Yes, correct conditioning is very important in any society. In fact the most important job, but very lowly valuated in the Western world. This sad fact is creating most of our problems, because we do not care about eachother anymore (we're so damn many in one place). So, outlawing and banning people's freedom of expression and speech is not going to fix our problems.
"For instance, in Muslim countries women aren't leered at and treated as sex objects, because society conditions them not to. In Western societies, women are objectified through their portrayal as breasts on a stick on TV."
Well, in Muslim countries they are conditioned to look at wives and daughters as tradeable property, so what is better? Terror in schools or terror at home? (Obviously none of them) My point is not to 'diss anyone, but give an understanding that covering up the bad things, will only make them go underground. The longer it remains unexpressed, the harder it will be to deal with it later. Openness is the only way to go to make a system grow.
"That's how conditioning works, and that's what's happened here. There is no way that violence has no effect. Just as kids exposed to lots of swearing swear more than those in environemnts where swearing is taboo, those exposed to violence are more violent. Anyone who says otherwise is only doing so because they enjoy violence and sex so much."
Don't forget swearing
If you've read this far, let me just conclude with the thought-provoker that the current jail-system is in fact creating much of the problems with crime. Most of the violence and conditioning is happening in our prisons. Do not blame the "system" or prison-management. Realize that it is so, because we fear prisoners so much, the public wouldn't tolerate having them around or treating them nicely. Well.. What comes around, goes around. Do not blame anyone, the world is a big feedback-loop. Things just are the way they are.
So what is a poor geek to do? Well, accept the fact that you can't and shouldn't fix every problem in the world. Focus on yourself, those around you and positive things, don't focus on negativity and fear. What you focus on, you will have more of.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
OK - this brings up something which has bothered me for a while. No one can diminish the terrible things which happened at Columbine (and other similar events). Those of us who have no children (let alone murdered children) can't even come close to understanding the pain these parents are going through. I can quite understand people in such circumstances wanting to find a reason why, looking for someone to blame. For those of us who are fortunate enough to be uninvolved it's pretty obvious that the problem is not with an individual person, company or whatever, it's society, parenting, the media, for want of a better word "the system".
But that's not what I worry about. How can someone who has lost a child decide that money can replace that life? What's the price these days? $1m? $5m? $100m??? My guess is that it's the lawyers looking to take their 10% who persuade the parents to sue, but it makes me feel quite sick. Up until recently the UK lagged far behind the US in terms of the "litigation culture" but alas it looks like ambulance chasers are coming up fast over here too.
Why does _everything_ have to be an opportunity to screw someone over for a quick buck?
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
They do have a responsibility, and their parents are to blame partially.
However, it's not all - like it or not, this type of conditioning is part of it.
I think games like Doom, Quake and all are harmless if they're played by the right people, but they definitely can get people on the wrong track. If you grow up thinking that shooting people is fun, you're much more likely to try it in the real world.
Are the makers of those games directly responsible? I think no. But those who market them to kids share the guilt.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Actually, though, it's the families of the teachers according to the submittal. I agree with you in spirit, however, but it's not parents of the kids who shot up the school.
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
Um, I don't know what muslims YOUR talking about ... but the mulsims I know, women are objects that can be bought and sold. Muslims have absoultley no respect for women ... You know if a muslim woman dosen't have a hymen I as her brother can legally kill her for dishonoring the family? Fuck your TROLL muslims :)
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
What I am saying is that if parents exercised some more control, and perhaps encouraged their kids to do more sporting and less TV watching, I think the likelyhood of these things would go down. But this is just an utopia, since the western civilization per se is lazy. It just a lot easier to put your kids in front of the TV than to actually engage them with something and play part of what they are doing, is it not?
And of course the always present issue of guncontrol. In sweden where I live guns are heavily controlled. You would not find a gun in the average household, and if you do it would to 98% be a huntingrifle that has to be locked in according to law.
Alsom, movies and TV is also more dangerous than videogames IMHO. It is not like DOOM has very lifelike qualities now, does it? This is ofcourse changing and I would not put my son in front of soldier of fortune exactly.
Just my SEK 0.02
I found a fast warez site: http://warez.it.kth.se
In America today, there is a common inability to admit that you got screwed over by circumstances beyond anyone's control. There always needs to be someone to blame, something to do, some way to "get back" at the people/person who caused your pain. That's not always possible. When there are suspects to be tried, compensatory damages to be collected from the wrongdoer we have our "justice", no matter the real benefit, at least we can say "somebody paid for what happened".
We are so used to it, this automatic satisfaction, we cannot begin to understand that things aren't always "fixable". That unlike the sitcoms we grew up on, not everything can be neatly wrapped up in a set period of time. When there is an absence of "justice", when there is no tit-for-tat, we freak out.
We have grown up believing hopelessness is not a white, middle class, suburban feeling. It is something felt by people half the world away, when we see them on the nightly news. Hopelessness is for people in some foreign-looking hellhole, not an upscale, midwestern community.
The parents in Littleton are trying to find something to fill the dark void in their life, the part of them that was ripped out by events beyond their...or really anyone's control. I have sympathy for their plight, but they should not continue on their quest to place blame where it doesn't belong. It's not easy to simply blame two people who are now dead, we can't get our ideal "justice"...but we have to realize and accept that we don't always get the satisfaction we want...or need. There will be no day in court, no explinations, no chance to scream at Eric and Dylan for the lives they ended.
There are far too many questions still lingering after two long years, and it seems we are nearly out of answers. No one will ever get to ask Why, to dig into the motivations of the killers, to get anything but the slightest hint of the thoughts behind the massacre.
Such is life.
With the inability to even begin to understand anything beyond what was seen in the hallways of Columbine on that afternoon, it is impossible and irresponsible to make assumptions about the deeper issues, the intangible aspects of what was going through their minds, what might of driven them to do what they did. Suing game publishers for billions of dollars is not justice, it does not punish anyone who was involved in any way, it does not bring back the dead, nor does it honor their memory. This is lashing out plain and simple. Lashing out against people who had no part in their troubles. Who didn't do anything, but who are simply convenent targets for rage, the rage of people without any answers, without any hope and who have a disabling inability to deal with the events in their life.
After all that has happened, you think people would have learned by now that no good comes from doing such things.
I implore the parents of the Columbine victims to stop this crusade...even if it suceeds there will be no tangible benefit...except the piece of mind that somebody paid.
I don't think we as a society can afford that. (Note: I strongly suggest people watch the film The Sweet Hereafter )
By your logic I'm now a flaming homo. The over exposure to goats.cx must have that effect on me.
It's amazing that I submitted this same story yesterday and it got rejected.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Last night I saw an old 80s horror movie called Black Roses. It could easilly be updated to fit with today's moral panic. Black Roses is about this evil heavy metal band that turns kids into killers and they kill their parents. Luckilly, the "hip" English teacher isn't fooled by them and can see how evil they are.
Substitute video games for heavy metal and you got yourself a blockbuster hit movie!
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
On Friday, Thompson made public a letter he has sent to John Carmack, one of the original "Doom" creators and founder of Texas-based id Software, on behalf of the Todd family.
He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30. The letter did not specifically threaten a lawsuit, but the statute of limitations for Evan Todd won't expire until he turns 18 in June.
The software developers are not responsible for distribution of the games to the end users. I believe the letter should go to the store where the game was purchased at. I hope that this case gets thrown out, just like the one mentioned after the shooting in Paducah, KY. There's no merit behind this suit.
I have got an idea... Next time someone gets sued for something as similarly frivolous in nature as this they should sue the lawer and his clients for making people think that frivolous lawsuits are an acceptable practice.
Tell me, if they took away the right to bear arms, then took away your freedom of speech, how would you get it back?
And why should they allow you to even try to start an uprising if they first removed your free speech?
/Mikael Jacobson
"But surely we won't be still stuck with Linux in 25 years!?"
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
The point of my post was that if you have no guns, but free speech, you can still work against the government somewhat openly, whilst if you have no free speech, but guns, the government can simply lock up anyone who says anything that's even remotely anti-government, thereby reducing the risk/chance of an uprising...
/Mikael Jacobson
"But surely we won't be still stuck with Linux in 25 years!?"
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
I mean, it's become fashionable as of late, but they can't be shooting from the hip that badly, can they?
All of us who game should go to work with a giant Quake symbol on to warn our co-workers that they should be afraid of standing next to a barrel.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
The true tragedy here isn't the shooting any longer...
It is about a bunch of parents who are looking for an early retirement through their greed. They are looking to make a quick buck by pointing fingers at anyone who walks by.
The families of the Columbia Space Shuttle, when it exploded, didn't go around suing NASA, did they?
No, they were able to pull themselves together, get over it, and work for a better tomorrow.
That's maturity.
The families of the Columbia even came together and created educational centers with the help of NASA to teach children about space exploration, and so forth.
Why can't the families of the Columbine tragedy do the same? Well, already pointed that out... a quick buck, and they lack maturity.
Why sue the parents?
Because they deserve it.
The kids are the ones who committed the crime.
They were the ones who didn't raise them properly.
The kids are dead.
At least something good came from this (I'm refering to the two fucked up sons of bitches that did it (and when I say sons of bitches, I'm also refering to the fathers... some guys are bitches too)).
I can't really say for certain (not being a parent), but I imagine that the parents already a) feel like shit from this whole incident
As well they should, but that still doesn't change the fact that they screwed up in a major way and should be held accountable for it. What else would you see as an acceptable outcome? If they aren't held accountable, it just sends the wrong message to the rest of the country: "It's OK... whenever I fuck up, I can just say that I'm sorry and I feel real shitty because of it... no big deal."
and b) they've already lost their kids.
Remember, it's not like they deserved to be parents in the first place and, as I said above, they were fucked up little shits to begin with.
No amount of money will bring the victims back from the grave. Any lawsuit over this sort of thing is just profiteering. Fuck that. :)
Finally! Something we can agree on.
q
I know I sound like a rotten bastard (or asshole if you prefer) saying this and it isn't politically correct to do so, but FUCK!. I'm tired of all this "blame everybody else except me" BULLSHIT.
"PROFANITY is the inevitable literary crutch of the inarticulate MOTHER FUCKER." -- some PC user
Try having this kind of shit happen in your hometown and see what it does to you. I was working at Denver General Hospital when this all happened. Some of the kids from Columbine were put there for intensive care. *ugh* One day I was playing Grand Theft Auto, turn off the play station and then see the breaking news on TV. I never felt like such a jackass. After seeing the Columbine arguments unfold following the disaster, I began to empathize with the parents and some of the anti-violence views. I don't believe that video games are directly responsible for violence such as Columbine. I think it's absurd to try to sue the companies who sell them. I do believe that violent material can be the symptom of a possible destructive lifestyle though (i.e. stupid skinhead music). Just like porn, cigarettes, and booze, we need to put age limits one these sorts of things. And yeah, maybe it will have to be 21 and up...
----Quid
----Quid
Less talk, more caffeine
Hmmm. I thought stating about how my view points were changed and offering the age limit idea was contributing to a solution....
----Quid
----Quid
Less talk, more caffeine
Quote from Harris during the shooting, "Oh so that's what a nigger's brians look like..." I think this went a little bit past a bully issue...
----Quid
----Quid
Less talk, more caffeine
Yeah. I agree to that. It really does seem that money is the primary issue. They're making a far reach in their relation bewteen the death of their children vs. radom video games. I can also see the other point of view in that we do need to have some checks and balances to keep some violence under control...
----Quid
----Quid
Less talk, more caffeine
I couldn't agree with you more. People like to distance themselves from what they do that is wrong, they rather choose to rationalize what they are doing as right. Though its tough to argue with that porn man.... its soooooo good :-)
You have a point here which is very valid in any situation. If a person is exposed to something more and more (be it violence or spicy food), that person will become more accustomed to it, and not be as alarmed by its presence, as they have become acclimated to it.
This is where you go all wack job on me. You are saying that because these kids played violent video games that they went postal in their high school? I think you are missing a bit of supporting evidence, and I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody but the dullest of idiots who would buy the argument the way that you laid it out here.
Again, you've taken your foundation which ws rather good, and just gone all wierd on me. I'm just not able to follow you here. Just because someone is exposed to something, does not mean that they will fall in and follow that model. Now I get to pull out my favorite little quote from my statistics class. Correlation does not proove causation.
I'm not saying that the exposure and conditioning didn't have anything to do with the fact. I'm just saying that citing it as the only factor in the problem is just wrong. Most likely there were problems that went on for years that built up to this, and finally there was something that broke the camel's back and they decided it was now time. Nobody saw any of the signs, nobody did anything about it.
The whole thing is very sad, but being reactionary is not the answer to this problem.
The parents purchased a copy of "The Bible" and read it. "I was appalled," said Jimmy's father Ted Smiles, "I had no idea that such a brutal and descriptive text existed on how to torture and kill.". The book apparently also teaches that crucified people can "rise from the dead", calling into question, in troubled minds, the finality of their actions.
Furthermore, the two attackers were actually brought to a school each Sunday whose only purpose was to teach from this book. "If that's not sickening, then I don't know what is," noted Jimmy's mother.
This isn't the first time that Christian teachings have been implicated in violent acts. Professor Reuben Fitzgerald noted the violent "crusades" of earlier centuries. "It is astonishing that this material is still so easy to get - even for youngsters. Surely it should be restricted, or perhaps even banned."
Jimmy Smiles was described as a gentle and sweet boy who liked to ride his bike, write stories, and play video games like Doom, Quake, and Unreal Tournament.
Services will be held this Sunday.
Rant incoming!
Blame the Media Companies??!!?!
You make me want to vomit as much as the people bringing this lawsuit!!! This is NOT a problem with the media. At 16, I was aware of what would happen if I took a weapon and even threatend anyone with it, becuase my parents taught me enough about the sanctity of human life! If anyone should get thier a$$3$ sued, it the parents for not being responsible enough to teach their children about the sacntity of human life, and not moderating their childrens entertainment if it was even a concern.
Parents! Learn some responsibility!
I'm not done, but anymore would problably be me repeating myself.
EveryDNS. Use it. It works.
AC's need not reply
Don't you hate it when you read your own caffinee addled, sleep deprived responses to something that you misinterepreted.... I know I shure do... DOH!
EveryDNS. Use it. It works.
AC's need not reply
Actually, about 12-14 years ago, consumers report listed the temperature of the coffee in the pots of various brands of coffeemakers. Many of them were at 180F.
LOL!
Oh that's rich.... A lawyer want to change things for the good! Oooh, that's a gas!! That's just about the most funny thing I've ever heard!
Come on. There isn't a lawyer alive who isn't self serving, megalomanical, corrupt, and willing to sell his or her own mothers/childs/grandmothers/grandfathers/fathers soul to eternal hellfires if it meant getting their way or making money.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
"The Sanders' suit, filed hours before a two-year statute of limitations expired, claims that if not for violent games and other media images - in particular, a school massacre scene from the movie "The Basketball Diaries" - the rampage by Harris and Klebold wouldn't have happened. "
Interesting how noone has sued the students who marauded, abused, assaulted, tormented and drove the gunmen to this point, isn't it? But of course, they were "jocks" and "preps", ergo they could not have actually DONE anything. It was harmless fun. Teasing.
""But money may be the smallest part of the goal," said John DeCamp, the Sanders' Nebraska-based attorney. "This is a class action that says that, ultimately, money ain't gonna do it."
Money is the smallest part of it?!?! To whom!?? Certainly not to a lawyer! And these revolting, disgusting pathetic individuals who are so blatantly going after money and ONLY money are so utterly beneath contempt it near enough makes you sick! A suit worth BILLIONS of dollars ISN'T about the MONEY!?! Oh of course not! Silly fskcing me for thinking that it would be. Billions of dollars and it is OBVIOUSLY for the statement. How could I be so foolish?
And of course, this bottom feeding lawyer isn't in it for the money either. He's in this for the message I'm sure.
Look... why don't these people just come right out and say it. I mean, just say, "it sucks that our father/husband got killed.... and while we are at it we are going to take these companies for every penny we can and live high on the hog for the rest of our lives! WooHOO! Dave WHO is dead? What do we care, we have BILLIONS of dollars! YeeeeHAAAWWWWWWWWW!"
Everyone spends time "educating" on how to "spot" the troublemakers. The geeks. The "losers". The "freaks". But no one does a fscking thing if Joe Football pounds the crap out of some kid because his glasses are too thick. Course not. THAT's just harmless fun. And if that "freak" finally snaps one day and goes into school (with guns he got easier than it is to rent a sofa) and starts getting a little of his own back, obviously we need to blame the movie/video game/entertainment industry.
Silly f*cking me...
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Lets sue the parents for not doing their job and letting it happen. Hell, what about the emotion stress that was caused to us for seeing it and the scare that something could happen to our children in schools.
*lol*
:)
Yeah, just look what it did to the poor raver kids.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
That's an awful lot of damage. Could somebody more in touch with these things tell me how figures for damages such as these are cooked up?
Cheers,
oojah
--
Do you have any better hostages?
The one thing I never understand about lawsuits is why people always have to ask for money after they've lost someone close.
Will money give them comfort? Will 5 BILLION DOLLARS allow them to get over the pain of losing a son or daughter?
To see the victims convicted and locked away, that's what I'd like to see in order to deal with the loss, but I fail to see how lots of dollars will do any good.
Not that I endorse this lawsuit, but if I was suing anyway, I'd request the close down of those game companies.
DFL0.02.
<grub> Reading
(sarcasm alert)
If these two were really any good at Doom and first person shooters, they would have been able to gun down a lot more students. They would have spawn camped and type killed which they obviously didn't do since they only fragged a couple dozen of their peers.
Any good "Last Man Standing" player could have easily instagibbed close to fifty kids. Sheesh.
(/sarcasm)
TW
Television is dead. Long live That Weasel Television
Hey, if the families wanna pin the actions of Klebold & Harris on the game companies, then it only makes sense that the people in the game companies can pin their actions on someone else, too.
Eventually, we'll all be liable to someone else for something.
--
Remember that in America, everyone has identical access to redress of grievances. That means:
1] You can file a suit about anything or nothing.
2] If it IS about nothing, you'll be thrown out on your ear.
This is not a real lawsuit. It is not based on any law, statute, legal doctrine, or precident. The lawyer involved is simply using the legal system to try to make political waves.
In short: The Lawsuit Is A Troll Intended For the Media.
Slashdot bit, as did you. I'm sure a lot of radio talkshow hosts will be using it as a topic for their rants. This kind of pseudo-story is their bread and butter.
If it was not for some video games, I probably would have killed myself in high school for all the shit I had to go though. I feel good at the end of the day (of haveing coins flung at my head) to go home fire up doom 2 and bfg some things. And you don't hear about my high school in the news. On a another side note, a few of the teachers told me I should have throne a punch or to, but I never did. You know it is bad when the teacher suggest that!!
to insert paragraph breaks. A giant block of text is really hard to read.
As a matter of fact, since millions of kids play these overly violent games everyday, we can now understand why millions of kids take guns to school and shoot millions of other, non-videogame-playing children and then kill themselves every day.
These people bringing the lawsuit are on the right track, they mailed John Carmack personally to demand that he personally prohibit any person under 17 from playing his game. He is a genius coder, he must be able to figure out a way to do it. Senseless auto-killing brainwashing ought only be reserved for those over 18.
I mod this up with my non-existent mod points!
Pro bono= for free
contingency fee= some percentage of the settlement or judgment, which the lawyer only gets if there is a favorable settlement or judgment.
Lawyers working on a contingency fee do not get paid an hourly fee while they work on the case. If the client gets a favorable settlement or judgment, then the lawyer gets paid his fee (thus the use of the word "contingency"). Pro bono means the lawyer works for free.
You are talking about a lawyer working for a contingency fee, not pro bono.
Well, I don't know the exact nature of their claim, but in a civil case (i.e., a lawsuit between private individuals), the burden of proof is generally a "preponderance of the evidence." In layman's terms, all the plaintiffs have to prove is that there is a better than 50/50 chance that the defendants' actions (i.e., selling violent video games to anyone, including minors)caused those kids to go out and kill their schoolmates and teachers.
Then how come they already put a price tag on it.
Here's a little legal insight:
You can't file a lawsuit seeking damages without stating the amount of damages. You cannot file a suit saying "I am suing you for a lot of money." When you file a lawsuit you must specifically allege how much money you want as damages, and the basis for that dollar amount. For example, you shoot me. I go to the hospital and get fixed. The hospital visit costs me $10,000. When I sue you for shooting me, I say that I am seeking $10,000 in damages and this money will cover my medical expenses.
So they have already put a price tag on it because they had to in order to file the suit.
I went to the linked site, and this game isn't even released yet. Is this some shameless attempt at advertising? Pathetic.
My final thought is this: when a child who has been taunted incessantly kills his taunters, why do we blame video games and his parents? Why do we place no blame at all on the deceased, who hurt the child so much that the child saw no recourse but to strike back with extreme force?
Striking back at the people who make fun of you with extreme force? Sorry, but there is no justification for shooting people who tease you. The blame for Columbine falls squarely on the backs of those two psychopaths, and no one else. You are suggesting that the kids who got killed (even assuming that they were actually kids who teased the two murderers) deserved it, because they teased those poor, fragile PSYCHOPATHS. You are suggesting that it is okay to kill someone because he calls you a nerd or a freak. Your statement reflects more of what was wrong with those kids than any video game.
In my opinion, this has about to do with video games as the cigarette lawsuits had to due with cigarettes. The people who will profit most will be the lawyers. It's all about money.
Actually, the cigarette lawsuits were about an entire industry using its money to hide the true (and very harmful) effects of its product from its customers. They were about the vastly increased medical costs that states incurred treating those customers. They were (and are) about forcing the tobacco industry to take responsibility for the harm that it had been causing to millions of people (including non-smokers through those increased medical costs).
There is a big difference between this lawsuit and the suits against gun companies or tobacco companies. In the gun and tobacco lawsuits, only the gun companies manufacture guns and only the tobacco companies manufacture cigarettes. The link of responsibility (although perhaps not legal liability) is clear. In this lawsuit, game companies are not the only ones that package up violence and push it on minors (whether you think it matters or not, video games are targeted at youngsters). Violent images come at us from every possible media. It will be very hard for these plaintiffs to prove that video games, and only video games, provided the violent input that supposedly is responsible for those two maniacs killing their schoolmates. If they can't prove that fact, then the game companies can't be proved liable.
All serial rapists drink water...OUTLAW WATER!
The gaming companies make these games with the intent that the players of the game take their agressions out on pixels not people, and that's what has retained my sanity thus far in life. So what, if they played a few games of doom every once in a while, is that so odd? I play a game of doom at least every week, and to my best knowlege I have never commited mass-murder. The shooting is a horrible thing to have happened, and I can understand the mental upset which the parents are having...but the media is to blame on this one. Nobody would have even thought about "violent and graphic" video games as a cause of this, if the media had not said "they were satan worshipers and played the evil violent horrible video game called DOOM! *ominous organ music*" Note that there have been at least 5 copycat killings which would not have happened if the media did not concentrate on this event so heavily. They do it all for the ratings, and the ratings are no consolation for the damage the media has done on this one.
You dropped the ball. Pick it up.
-- Bandit450...If-Else-Do-*TWITCH*!
I live in France.
Guns are not allowed to be sold to teenagers. The law forbids it. It is very hard to own and operate a gun in my country,and most of the shootings are robberies-related. I think this is good.
We had, in my region, In 2 years time, 2 or 3 accidents in or near schools, with teens involvings guns (the saddest being a suicide during classtime). In fact, it is worse since the Bosnia War, smuggled guns are easier to find.
However, Killing occur at school, most of the time with knives, over drugs or "honor" matters.
But not on an industrial scale, and for motives such as Columbine.
In France, kids also play Doom, and CounterStrike, and whatever violent game you can think of. In my (small) city, we had a weeklong LAN party with over 300 people, most teens. They also watch LAheat, Swat whatever, and the most violent serials you have in the US.
No columbine though.
I play CS. I practised hunting. I learned to handle guns & explosives at the army. The RIGHT way, I think. If you want to play blind mounting of a 92F, i'm your man.
I do not own a gun. I won't let my 2 kids own guns. But I will teach them about guns. About the danger of those items. And that the danger lies with the PEOPLE.
Blame. Blame people. Blame the law. But don't blame games.
Unless you don't want the REAL questions being asked.
David
That's not pro bono. That's a contingency fee basis.
Those of you ready to condemn the legal system (again) please note that no court has yet said the case has merit, and no court ever will. This case would not survive summary judgment.
There are 30-40 million kids that play video games in this country - does that sound right?
Out of that many, something like 40 of them went on a rampage at school?
Why are we getting so obsessed about something that affects such a miniscule amout of kids? How many die or kill from drunk driving or drugs a year? A thousand times as many? It's almost like the attention from the media and alarmist factions focused on violent video games is about the same level as these other topics! It's sensational and perhaps a little more entertaining than focusing on that old, boring drug problem, but if you grab 40 million people of ANY DEMOGRAPHIC, about 40 of them will be murders, probably more, so how can you possibly make a connection to just games as being a cause?
free online diet tracking.
Now look at some of the most violent regions in the world: Africa, Balkans, Gaza Strip. I see a remarked absense of all video games in these regions. A person who plays many video games and watches many movies usually has a good idea of what is virtual and what is real. Such people tend to have more open philosophies, to encompass most of the perspectives that they have come across.
But for people in these wildly violent regions, there is only the real. They are told one story, and by God, that is the One True Way and every one must believe it, or they are so far out of the mental radar, that their life is unimportant. If you want to know what really causes death, that's it.
Shared cultural experiences give a shared perspective, and suddenly everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. They're all on the same wavelength. That's impossible in a media deprived or media controlled world.
All the Teachers is that school had the responbility over the kids. For them to fail in that duty, and one of the get killed in the process is there fault.
For them to then come out and blame the usual suspects of Games and Movies, is the height of the "not my fault" american culture.
I enjoy sex, whats wrong that.
Seriously someone please build one of these. The media reaction would be a joy to beyond. I bet millions will curse its sickness, and another million will download it, because, you know what people are hypocrites.
They don't have to mould you. But I thing they should play enough attention to tell if your that your going Mental.
America sued by Europervs
A single male European citizen, here named AC, sued 10 million United States family households yesterday for allegedly hindering AC's By God, Country, State and Darwin right to bear arms in shootup games, look at nude blondes and exercise bad mojo. According to some unnamed sources the figures discussed are 456.2 billion USD in compensation plus an additional 5 billion for each and every quote Fucked Up endquote comment from Households that Gaming is BAD and DEVILISH.
In, thus far, unrelated news the Federal Reserve today will announce an interest rate raise, the reason being the projected heavy losses of income in main american housholds.
United States President George W. Bush recieved a gift of 15 yellow plastic bathing ducks from Swedish Minister of State Anna Lindh at the European Union Stockholm Summit dinner in Sagerska Palatset sunday. Reporters on scene quotes the duck's inscription as "dork-bork-bork-bork" and the President as being "thrilled at the new visions on world politics".
I dont know how many parties are involved, but thats 5 Billion total..
Jeremy
Ok look.
There is a requirement that before you can see a movie rated R you have to prove that you are 17 at most any theatre out there.
Cable neatly bypasses this because that is in the realm of the home. In the home the parent is responsible for ensuring what their children are doing.
So a kid buys a video game and sneeks it to their computer and plays it all without their parents noticing or discussing it with them. I think not.
We ALL know this is about the money.
Jermey
Whoooaaah, there, slow down big buddy!
Have you ever actually been to the Middle East?
In certain places in Muslim countries, generally where tourism is high, any female who is wearing less than traditional Muslim garb is constantly harassed, leered at, treated as a sex object, rubbed up against on the streets, touched against her will, etc.
Why is this? Partially because the a lot of the tourist folks who come to that country are looking for sex, and people pick up on that idea. But mostly I think it's because they're conditioned to think that very modest clothes on a female mean that she's self-respecting, and less-than modest clothes (by their standards) mean that she's a prostitute or looking for sex.
Conditioning is going on, but you're mistaking what the conditioning is. The conditioning is the level of skin you can expect to see on a woman before your respect for her decreases.
Dlugar
Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
Well, they will find out just how much money it costs to bring a case and they will lose the lot. Precident shows non culpability of the media. Maybe they should look closer to home and try suing the families of the people who bullied the boys... Or the school for not dealing with the buildup to the whole situation...
Working for the (other) man
I respectfully disagree. "Conditioning" is too often used as a cop-out for personal irrresponsibility. There are lots of kids and adults out there playing violent games and watching violent TV and are NOT itching to take an AK-47 to their school or work. Of course, I'm probably just one of those mad, sex and violence additcs you are describing. Funny, I feel perfectly rational today.
While it may be true that exposure changes behavior, I think the most important point here is that parents need to assume responsibility for their children. If you don't agree with violent games, fine, then keep your kids from playing them. If you don't think your kids should watch R-rated flicks, then fine, don't take them to see them. But, for God's sake, don't sue the people who produuce them.
Ugh, note to self: grab a coke first thing in the morning. My post didn't make a whole lot of sense, in this context.
My point is that parents are ultimately responsible for their children. No matter what's out there (games, movies, friends who set poor examples, etc), the parents are the ones who need to assume the responsibility for their kids' actions. It is the parents' responsibility to guide their kids and teach them what is right, what is wrong, what is fantasy, and what is reality. Unfortunately, the gaming companies are a much bigger target and can offer more money than parents, so it's better to go after the companies in a court of law. In the end, this is pointing a finger at the wrong people.
The issue is much, much deeper than just "some damn law." It is about the right of self-defense.
I own several guns but if I had the option to vote on outlawing guns it would be a non issue.
Hypocrite. Scum.
So when do we get to file a class action lawsuit against the generation of parents out there who work too much, spend no time with their kids, don't get involved with what they are doing, blame schools, techers, coaches, everyone when their kids do something wrong, or don't do their homework, or don't do well in school, basically blame everyone else for who their kids grow up to be such problems. Give me a break! Parents have a responsibility to know what their kids are doing, who they talk to, what they like to do, and basically KNOW who their kids are. There is absolutely no grounds to go and blame the media or gaming companies or whatever for the kids problems. If they were involved in their kids lives, they would have know what they were up to, known not to expose them to certain inappropriate media and things would have turned out very differently. I get sick and tired of this generation of parents who don't give a shit about their kids and think it is everyone else's responsibility to make sure they grow up to be good upstanding adults.
Want to understand why we tend to defend owning a gun? read history right around 1776 and you will see why alot of us defend owning guns.
Question reality.
- blame the bullies
- blame the parents
- blame guns
I'll tackle them one at a time. Blame the bullies. Well, not many people were more bullied and ridiculed than me all through school, yet as aforementioned I am not violent and don't even really hate those people. Blame the parents. Well, I had an abusive father, my grandfather killed himself, etc, etc, and again I am not violent at all. Blame the guns. Well, I had plenty of access to guns and boxes and boxes of 'ammo' in various unlocked desks and cabinets and I did not shoot anyone. So what IS the answer? Well I don't know, really. It sure as hell ain't religion (athiest here, sorry) or nice teachers (they actually made fun of me in front of the classes as well). The only thing I can really guess is that the shooters in the Columbine case were just plain mentally ill and their parents/teachers/etc failed to recognize that and get them help. The lawsuit as I see it should be directed right there (and it has, the shooters' families were sued). I'm not sure it is the school's responsibility to check for this kind of thing, but these 'shooters' were minors, correct? Do teachers have a duty to check for signs of abuse or neglect? But isn't that what they are trying to do with all this suspending of people who wear black, etc? I dunno, something is screwed up with the school system, the family system, with the whole country. Anyway I am DEFINATELY not trying to place blame on anyone, it is none of my business to do such a thing. I just don't see how this lawyer thinks he has a snowball's chance in hell of even making this case last more than a few minutes of a judge's time. And, as usual, I set out to say something and have no idea what I just said. Oh well.The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Having said that, the case you to which you refer does not illustrate this in the way you believe. The popular meme for this case is as follows: Ditzy woman orders coffee, drives away and spills it on herself and is scalded. She sues and is an instant millionaire. This is completely false. Here are the facts:
- Ms. Liebeck was not driving the car, neither was the car moving at the time of the incident.
- Ms. Liebeck was 79 at the time of the incident, and subsequently spent 8 days in the hospital undergoing surgery.
- Ms. Liebeck had 3rd-degree burns over 6% of her body. Her vagina was completely destroyed and had to be reconstructed by a plastic surgeon. She has permanent scarring over 16% of her body.
- Ms. Liebeck attempted to settle the case out of court for $20,000, but McDonald's refused. McDonald's offered her $800, refusing even to pay her medical expenses.
- McDonald's gave the court internal documents showing that in the previous 10 years, on average 70 people per year claimed to have been burned by McDonald's coffee.
- The court found McDonald's conduct "reckless, callous and willful."
- Finally, Ms. Liebeck never collected anything near $2.9 million (an amount, BTW, equal to 2 days worth of coffee sales at McDonald's worldwide). The amount was reduced to $480,000 by another court, and the parties later settled an undisclosed amount.
In short, I think the court system worked remarkably well. It's unconscionable that a company can serve food products which are capable of severe and immediate damage to human tissue if used as intended. McDonald's had know for more than a decade that their coffee was burning people, but they did nothing about it. They served their coffee at 185 degrees. Their warning labels were useless: "Caution: hot." They should have said, "Caution: contents are hot enough to liquify human skin in less than 3 seconds."Here's a handy Google search on the subject.
question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Come to think of it, I wonder if anyone has been killed by software, save military applications for targetting and such.
I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, but it's one thing to sue the makers of the knife used, it's another to sue the maker of something the killer might have used in daily life. It is akin to sueing Kellogg's because the killer's ate Frosted Flakes for breakfast that morning.
I feel sorry for the shooters, because they were the ones that needed the most help and the system failed THEM.
Okay so:
1) Guns were not made for milk jugs; guns were made to kill (animals, people (subclass of animals), whatever).
2) People were killing people long before id, etc. came around (hence the theme...).
3) The parents of said children engaged in at the very least speculative killing (owning a gun implies a need to use it someday, defense or offense).
4) "Victims" sue parties in #2 for actions of #1 and #3.
Someone please point out what in the hell is going on here? Also of note: no movie studios ("Boyz in da Hood," "Dangerous Minds," hell, even "West Side Story") are included, AFAIK. No TV shows (NYPD Blue? ER (people get rolled in from gun fights)?). Just game companies. Mmmm hmm.
I like to fantasize and sometimes get reality confused with fantasy. Time to sue the current holder of Tolkien's estate as well as Wizards of the Coast (that's a double suit: one for TSR and one for "Magic: TG").
You know, at least with the last one I could finally kill Pokemon... HMMMMmmmm....... Any lawyers in here?
Has anyone else noticed that this shit has been going on for years in the inner city. Does it raise not one eyebrow that only now is there an uproar over children killers? Hmmmm... let's do some math...
If computer games are to blame for the massacre, then my (probably rhetorical) question is this: how does one, exactly, define the 'realm of influence' of gaming (violent or non-violent) upon a young mind?
And, assuming that such a realm of influence can be defined or at least rationally argued, then where does this place the impact of the agent's free will and choice?
Is the real argument here that the young minds are so weak as to negate the possibility of free will?
And -- follow me here -- if free will and choice are out of the equation -- if young minds are not, in fact, capable of free will or choice because they have been incapble of such action through computer games -- then how can you possibly accuse these young minds of acting in an immoral fashion?
You'll remember that Kant remarked that autonomy is the basis for morality. We have to be free -- and able to make a choice -- in order to be moral creatures.
If free will and choice are not available to us -- then our actions can no longer be judged as either immoral or moral.
"Ought implies can," is the Kantian formation. A moral judgement can only be made where there is a possiblity that it cannot be made. Where there is a choice, in other words.
So it seems that these lawsuits are trying to negate the possibility of choice on the part of the children. The end result of this (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that then these lawsuits are simply de-moralizing the (obviously) immoral actions of these violent children.
I bet these people work for Rambus...
I swear, society has a lets blame someone else attitude. It's never your fault. Or in this case, those nutcases fault. Society is always looking for someone to blame regardless of whether they are to blame or not.
I've been playing violent video games for most of my life. I view violent movies on a regular basis. Heck, I grew up watching Rambo movies. (First Blood kicks ass!) I got my ass kicked once in Junior High School. Yet, I've never laid a finger on anyone else. Sure, there have been people who I would have liked to push into oncoming traffic, but I don't. That's the definitive line between your normal person and your nutcase. The crazy person would push them. But why? Because they played a violent video game? I don't think so. Tens of thousands of people have played shoot-em-up games. They turned out fine. So it must not be the games.
1)get sued for something really retarded & loose
2)sue these guys (and maybe the Mcdonalds-coffee-too-hot people) for setting the precedent
We should wait for JonKatz to tell us what to think about this.
Except for when he's not.
Hmm. Let's just say that EVERYTHING that happens to me is EVERYONE elses responsibility. Not mine. I only have to take care of everyone else (because they are MY responsibility). But not me.
Wait-- let's just sue people in advance for anything they might possibly do in the future.
The only reason we need lawyers is because of other lawyers.
At least that's what I find. Has anyone played the game Operation Flashpoint? You'll be walking along on a nice sunny day with birds chirping all around you with your buddies. Then one of your friends head explodes in a cloud of red from an enemy sniper that you have no idea about. The game seems more of a reality check about war and violence. After playing it a few times you begin to get more hesitant about running into combat or firing at an enemy and getting shot back at since all it takes is one bullet to do you in. In Quake you run out into people and start firing away, in Flashpoint you hide behind a bush for an hour hoping the enemy patrol won't notice you...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Eric Krout @ alphard{42}% date Mon Apr 23 09:10:49 EDT 2001
Unless my date's wrong, it's not April 1st. So why is there an April Fool's joke?
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Doom and similar games are violent and probably not appropriate for young children, but I don't buy the argument that playing these games conditions someone to violence. A normal child of high-school age should be able to tell the difference between the fantasy of these games and the real world. If Klebold and Harris could not do that, then the blame lies with someone other than John Carmack. Kids who are routinely exposed to violence probably do become violent people more often than average. It does not follow a priori that kids who are exposed to fantasy violence become real-world violent people more often than average.
Typical approach for the school to "solve" this problems:
a)Come up with simple gut-feeling explanations to the problem - "they played violent games that's why they were violent" ("killing people in games makes killing people in real life" seems a more obvious explanation than "being ignored by parents and teachers and being bullied by collegues makes killing people in real life")
b)Put the responsability in an area out your influence - "violent games" (They didn't play them in school so that's not our responsability - they were bullied at school but the problem was not that, the problem were the violent games)
c)Take visible actions against apparently correlated events - if the shy, quiet kid threats to kill somebody then send him home (seems a direct risk), if the bully beats the hell out of a kid just ignore it (it's a normal event, plus he didn't mention killing when beating the kid up)
Personaly i think these explanations only convince low-inteligence people, but then again my opinion of most people is not very impressive (and it gets worse everytime i turn my TV on)
Sure it has an effect. It's part of life. It has been since the beginning of time. It will never change. No stupid lawsuit is just going to stop it all. Parents need to spend more time discussing the material, hell, maybe even play a game of doom or watch a horror movie together. That way the parent can have the discussions that need to happen to raise an "adjusted" child. I would have to say that anyone who reaches the age of 18, without having seen any type of sex and/or violence is going to have a hard time adjusting to what really happens in this world.
Even if they (the shooters) left a detailed note saying that the reason they did all of this was because of Doom, other violent video games, and the media in general, so what? They still have no liability as far as I'm concerned. The parents have no liability. There could be a million things running through these kids mind, a million things that could have happened to them to cause this. Unfortunately, the world will never know what was really going on inside their heads. Deal with it!@
10 Years Later:
Wow, you should be really proud!
So whose fault will it be if they end up shooting up their school? Obviously it couldn't be yours.
Don't take this the wrong way, and it does sound like they are trying to do the best for their kids, but this goes right along with the reasoning of the morons that are filing this lawsuit, Just remember they're 4 and 5, they have plenty of time to screw things up yet
Yes, I think I knew that. I'm just too used to msg boards that filter those words out. Sad, isn't it?
From the Article:
"But money may be the smallest part of the goal," said John DeCamp, the Sanders' Nebraska-based attorney. "This is a class action that says that, ultimately, money ain't gonna do it."
Then how come they already put a price tag on it? The fact that the attorney is the one that is saying this makes it even more unbelievable.
The ignorance of this world never ceases to amaze me
I wish this discussion was taking place somewhere that would be read by someone who is directly involved with this.
PLEASE, if anyone here is directly involved with this, take charge and dispell the myths.
"Whadda'ya watchin'?"
"Angry Monkey."
"That HORRIBLE monkey."
Why and how do you explain that people can get away with this. Instead of blaiming the kids for the shooting, they want money from the gaming companies. Man that seems very well STUPID. Yeah people the gaming companies tell your kids to kill kill kill shoot until dead dead I say. As a complete game aholic I can say this is far from the turth. I feel that gaming is away to have some sort of stress relife without any damage to anyone. I people want to blame anyone, then they should blame them selves for not see and stoping their kids from playing those sorts of games. If anyone feels the same way please email me at shawn_kessel@hotmail.com website linuxbox.darktech.org. I am so tired of people blaming other people. "Like The Smokers and The Tobacco Comapnies. " Don't get me started on that one. If people would stop looking for people to blame and try to be consider what their kids are going through. that is very hard for them to do. See they need to grow up too. It is like I am in third grade," You started it, 'No You Did' ...." Whay are people so dumb. I need every one to band together and fight the stupid people that sue these companies. Why in god green earth do these people think they are doing. Hmmmm well crowding the corts with stupid S**T like this. Well, I feel that I said all that I need to, but please email me @ shawn_kessel@hotmail.com and band together as we should and fight the people that want to sue every stinking company, person etc.......
Thank You
Shawn "Ac|dCrAzE" Kessel
Vey tired of stupid people
""Exactly. That's why we won in Vietnam and Korea, the Russians won in Afhghanistan and Palistine has taken over Isreal, the citizens are armed. Oh wait, that makes you wrong. Silly me. ""
Funny how Americans now think they won in Vietnam just like the Russians won Afghanistan. LOL I guess history is something not taught in the USA anymore... And if you actually did take history, this is even scarier.
Bork!
see, here's where DOOM pays off. by playing DOOM (etc), the child learns how to improve his shooting skill so he doesn't have to shoot randomly anymore; they'll be a more polished shooter and get their target the first time.
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
There is certainly no denying that media has a profound effect on our society, and that the liberal views portrayed in the media have contributed to more liberal attitutes of our youth. However, violent video games are no more to blame than any violent movie that has ever been made. They create the same situation.
That situation is that parents must monitor the actions of their children. Kids who are able to watch anything they want, without supervision of their parents, will be likely to adopt the attitudes (e.g. of violence) that are portrayed. Video games are no different. In both cases, it is the responsibility of the parents to ensure that their children do no adopt those attitutes.
I have played as many violent video games in my life as just about anyone else. I have been addicted to id games since Wolfenstein. The difference is that my parents explained to me from the first time that I saw someone die on TV that the things I was seeing were not real, and that the actions of the characters were not acceptable.
There's bad stuff all over the media. Attacking video games will solve nothing. Monitering kids' activities and discussing the consequences of what the view is the only solution.
I can understand the need to feel justice in this case but wouldn't it make more sense to sue the person who comitted the crime... or in this case the parents... This whole situation is suing the people that -may have- given a bad idea to a couple of teens. Ideas are protected in our society with the highest level of scrutiany.
----------
do { Work(); PayTaxes(); Eat(); Sleep(); } while (alive)
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while (alive) { Work(); PayTaxes(); Eat(); Sleep(); }
Bool
Do you really think that Doom somehow "possessed" these dorks to kill people? Sorry - I think not - they had their own psychological problems before that.
If people suing win this case, they should try to sue the movie makers too - because there are some pretty damn violent movies out there that I'm sure the two dorks saw. And why stop there? Go for the nightly News channels. I see lots of clips of violence on there.
When is it going to end? When are people going try to work on the source of the problems instead of the peripheral issues?
Chris
Really.
s ponsibility/
The thing is that he started the entire lawyer nonsense under the motto: "You're a small guy, so you're the victim of big bad corporations".
This spawned a wave of "Pay me and my lawyer millions for my poor doggie because you haven't put a clause about not drying it in your microwave into the instruction" crap.
It has transformed the American Dream into suing the shit out of someone instead of making the money honest way. "I'm stupid, and you need to pay me millions" became the slogan that allows lawyers harvest billions.
Just read this: http://www.wellingtonpublications.com/hsf/1994/re
It is the set of essays written by schoolchildren that illustrate the results that Naderism inflicted on this country.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
This is presumably why you're not supposed to be able to get a good cup of tea in America. God forbid you should let someone pour BOILING WATER onto the leaves or bag.
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
by letting the parents back into their lives instead of shutting them out as much as possible.
Nobody is taking the parents out of their children's lives. The parents are doing that to themselves.
I have seen too many times parents who are literally afraid to discipline their child. They are afraid that the kid will retaliate either physically or claim that there was some sort of abuse. The reason they are afraid is that they waited too late in the child's life to correct their misbehaviors...now it's too late and the kid thinks they should be able to get away with anything and will defend the ability to get away with anything any way they can, even if it hurts their parents.
I grew up with fear of making my parents angry, because I knew what the consequences were and it was more than being grounded (let me just say that going after a switch from the tree was not uncommon). I loved my parents (still do), but that level of fear (which is still there in a small degree) kept me in line.
I think the 'dumbing of America' as someone put it is a direct product of the wussifying of America where people suffered no real consequences when they messed up as a kid. The people who fall under these categories seem to band together and claim that the person who comitted a horrible crime is not responsible, that <fill in industry here> is responsible.
I suffer from apathy, but I just don't care.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Franklin
This makes me so angry I want to go on a school shooting spree. Then we can sue that person for 'pushing me over the edge' or something and collect damages. Then we give back the money to the gaming companies and all are happy.
PS: In case you haven't already figured it out, the previous was a joke. Don't take me seriously... ever. Thank you.
The problem here is that it is none of these people's damn business what game companies or any other companies do! Consumers can vote with their wallets by not allowing their kids to go places where they will see these horrible video games. This is not a place where the government or law needs to intervene.
forth ?love if honk then
I'd like to see what would happen if those guys didn't get a chance to kill themselves after they went on the shooting rampage. Really makes me wonder who would get the blames and finger-pointing then...
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Oops. They're dead. Can't sue. Must sue someone else then. Gotta appease that American appetite for legal action.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
If you read sense 3 in the above definition it appears that the issue being argued here is whether or not repeated exposure to fictional violence causes people to be less emotionally adverse to commiting real violence themselves. I agree that it does. And as much as I like violent movies and games I think that our society doesn't treat them the way it should. I don't think that the answer is to remove the violence from our games and other media. I think that if our society were to have a more conscious treatment of it we could develop a more healthy and lasting understanding of violence.
I don't know anyone who has been affected enough by violence in the media to be driven to violence themselves. But perhaps I lead a sheltered life. I do, however, know quite a few people who are exposed to violence in the media everyday and aren't driven to commiting violence. I think that this shows that it isn't the exposure itself that is a problem. I have no proof of it but I think that the difference between the many who don't commit these violent acts and the few that do is the tools they use to understand and deal with their lives. I would even argue that it is through the use of these tools that people develop their own "desensitization" that keeps them from being violent. The people who do commit violence are by this same token too sensitive to their lives.
You mention swearing in your post above. And I believe that this is one area that shows how desensitization is a useful part of our existence. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." "I'm rubber you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you." When we teach our children these phrases we are asking them to be less sensitive to other peoples words. Is this desensitization a bad thing? I don't think it is. We ask our children to be less sensitive to the words of others because we know we cannot stop the world from being mean or rude to them. It would be futile to try to keep our children from being exposed to this kind of "violence". Instead we try to teach them how to protect themselves. In fact I think that this is one of the earliest conscious "coping tools" that we learn. Those of us who learn this realize that peoples words don't have to affect us. Some of us learn it so well that words like f--k, s--t, b---h, meanie, c--t, p---y, f----t, d--e, and dummyhead don't affect us anymore. We can then use these words in our everyday life when they suit us. Is this a bad thing? Is this a good thing? If you let other peoples' words affect you aren't you more sensitive? When I was growing up just hearing the word nigger was enough to make me hurt someone. It used to make me so angry. Now I hear it all the time. I don't hurt people anymore when I hear it. I think that's because I'm less sensitive to it. I can't say it without flinching, but I see kids all aroung me who have no problem with it. Is this desensitization bad? I don't think it is. I'm happy knowing that people won't be able to use that word to control others like they did when I was growing up.
Negative desensitization through repeated exposure is in my opinion a result of experience that isn't tempered by our consciousness. While desensitization has a negative connotation we generally think of experience as a positive thing. Think of all of the medical students all over the world opening up cadavers. Some would say that the main reason for this is to learn anatomy, but I would argue that one can learn anatomy better from some of the texts and exploded diagrams than from actually cutting into another human being. So what does human dissection give our future doctors that the texts can't? It gives them experience. It is important that our surgeons aren't squeamish when it's necessary to amputate a leg, or repair someones heart. Many people who save lives everyday once vomited on their classmates. They are able to continuously perform their duties because they are no longer held back by their sensitivities. Why then don't we hear of hundreds of doctors developing a taste for morbid violence and necrophilia? I think it has to do with the context in which this experience is earned.
So the real problem isn't exposure to violence in the media, but an unbalanced exposure. Many people say that games and media are to blame for this or that the parents are to blame. You know whose fault I think it is? I think it's the fault of anyone out there who passes up an opportunity to help others to build the tools they need to cope with their lives. That includes me, you, the parents, the game designers, pretty much all of us.
- Ben Burnett
Per intercessionem Sancti Blasii liberet te Deus a malo gutteris et a quovis alio malo.
Soon, god will be suing the gaming industry for copyright infringement for the game "Black and White." Then, we'll be in a world of trouble.
No, but they are responsible for enforcing school reguations which include protecting people like the shooters from being assaulted, slandered, etc. by the jocks.
Talk to Gandhi.
Can't. He's dead.
All it takes is nukes and nerves.
What a bunch of greedy bastards..
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.
Uhhhhh...yeah. Lest we forget the Parent's Music Resource Committee, headed by Tipper Gore. A known left-winger who brought us record-labelling because she "saw the devil on MTV"
"I ain't 'nobody,' dork....right?"
OK, its time somebody put an end to this inane argument
Yes, if the government is coming after you, you don't stand much of a chance, no matter how many guns you own.
However, if the government suddenly decides to change to fascism, or resort to Tinnamen Square style crackdowns on its citizens well then it has a big problem: 80 million+ freedom-loving gunowners. We don't really have to worry about an oppressive goverment here.
The U.S. system of government is all about checks and balances to prevent abuses. The right of the people to be armed is very much a powerful check against the possibility of opressive government - something countries who have banned their citizens from owning guns are now susceptible to. It would not surprise me to see a semi-fascist state(complete with the loss of any individual rights) with a charismatic leader rise out of the EU. What would the people of Europe do to prevent another Hitler? An armed, organized resistance would be out of the question. Not so here in the U.S.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
BOOGITYSHOO, Iowa (Brooters): Fourteen survivors of the victims of the Boogityshoo High School mass killing have filed a lawsuit in a federal court against God, asking for $1 billion in damages.
"There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever," said Darrow Clarence, the attorney representing the bereaved parents.
"Timothy Yodelsky and Frannie Fannett's violent acts were a direct result of the images of bloodshed and mass violence described in God's infamous book, 'The Holy Bible'."
In March of 2006, Yodelsky and Fannett went on a heavily-armed rampage through the school at which they were seniors, killing 31 fellow students and injuring 25 more in what has been described as America's worst mass shooting to date before ending their own lives.
Both students were described as being obsessed with "The Holy Bible" and its vivid descriptions of bloody warfare and sexual perversion, as are a disturbing number of youth nationwide. There are even "Bible study groups" in which fans pore over its pages and discuss the author's real intentions.
"It's well-known that being exposed to excessive violence in art and literature at an early age can lead children to violent behavior later in life," Clarence said. "If 'The Holy Bible' had never been written, these two teenagers would have grown up as normal, well-adjusted human beings.
"For God to write this kind of literature and allow it to be marketed to impressionable adolescents is the height of irresponsibility. Hopefully this lawsuit will send a message that people must accept the consequences of their actions."
God has become increasingly reclusive in recent centuries, declining all requests for interviews and personal appearances. Asked for a response to Clarence's accusations, He once again refused to comment.
What is their burden of proof that the gaming companies had anything to do with it? I wonder what kind of previous cases have been brought to the courts that can show that games cause violence. The rock-music-entices-suicide cases all were won by the defense, right? I wonder how this is any different, short of the game actually "showing how to use a gun" (yeah right). It's actually really cool that these parents are now using their kids' deaths to earn an income. Hope we find the names of these parents so we can torment them in 10 years reminding them how they traded their children for money.
John and Patsy Ramsey
A preocupation with homosexuals (remember that iniatiative?) Let's not start the homosexual debate here...let's just all agree that Colorado is obsessed with them
Kids that shoot up their schools
Alexis Carrington Colby
Any more?
Something that really gets me is the fact that the parents are going after the developers and publishers of the games. If I'm not mistaken, Games like Quake 3 and such have Mature ratings on them. If the blame should be pointed on anyone in the industry, it should be pointed at the people who _sell_ the games, or the people that buy the games for their underage kids.
From the article:
"But money may be the smallest part of the goal," said John DeCamp, the Sanders' Nebraska-based attorney. "This is a class action that says that, ultimately, money ain't gonna do it."
I'm pretty sure money is a big part of it. They could be saying that just so the public doesn't get angry with them for trying to suck all the money possible out of this tragedy.
And on Friday, the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids.
Do the developers even have a say in who the games are sold to? I'm not sure about this so I can't comment on it, but if they don't why don't these people get their facts straight?
And Then...
Since education is the key, would you be opposed to gun safety education in public schools? "This is a gun. If you find one don't touch it, and for the love of pete don't point it at anyone. Now, we'll show a video of what happens to people who get shot." Who could not be in favor of that?
They do this for cars. And I know cars aren't guns, but there are some similarities -- there are a lot of them, daddy might have one, and they are both dangerous if misused.
Sadly, most anti-gun folks recoil in horror at the idea of public education, unless the "education" comes from gun control propaganda. I think it's because they see a *real* education program as acceptance of the fact that guns are part of the culture... they'd rather people be ignorant and afraid than aware and perhaps a bit safer, and lose some ground in their fight.
You're just jealous because YOU can't take it to the hole.
But seriously, those guys will be flipping burgers for a living. It sucks to be in school with them now, but you'll have the last laugh.
Hey, *I* never said "teach fear." You're preaching to the NRA choir here.
Seriously, can iD be responsible for the actions of two insane kids if those kids didn't actually *BUY* iD's games, but instead pirated them? Because honestly, what are the chances that they actually bought the games?
"Last time we saw you, you looked so much older; Your famous blue raincoat was torn 'round the shoulder..." -------
I went through public highschool not so many years ago and I remember first hand the lack of authority and discipline in the school system. The kind of harassment that goes on inside highschool walls would land people in jail if it happened anywhere else. This is by no means an endorsement for anyone's actions. The individual is ultimately responsible for everything she does, but if the institution isn't going to proffer justice, should you really be surprised when some nut students take a deranged version of JUSTICE into their own hands? I wasn't.
"Last time we saw you, you looked so much older; Your famous blue raincoat was torn 'round the shoulder..." -------
Why is it that ./ers seem so opposed to suing vidoe game manufactures, yet are all for blaming the guns?
Here's some logic for you:
If these kids didn't have access to guns, they definitely wouldn't have been able to shoot these people.
Whether or not they had access to computer games does not affect their ability to shoot people.
Therefore, guns can be much more easily blamed for the shootings as video games, as their easy availability makes the shootings more likely to occur, indeed their presence is required . However, the preence of video games has no such direct association.
I agree wholeheartedly that such violent influences should be rgulated out of existence and would like to suggest a few more pertinent examples of violent conditioning....
1. History Classes: The violent, antisocial behavior of revolutionaries is made heroic and teaches that is right, just and noble to attack and kill the soldiers sent by the parent government to police the actions of the law breaking subjects of their realm. Especially in the cases of the American and French Revolutions! Whereas the patriotic efforts of people such as Benedict Arnold are villified by historians because they attempted to uphold the laws of the land. After all, why would anyone want to hurt another just because they felt they were being mistreated?
2. Role playing games: No one should be allowed to pretend to be some fantastic character that they are not in the name of entertainment and intellectual growth...and I don't mean Dungeons & Dragons (copyright TSR), little girls playing dolls and pretending to be the mommy of some twisted urethane caricature of a child is truly sick as are toy soldiers, remote control cars (children might think they could drive Daddy's car)! Where does it end? Painting little lanscapes and portraits of their pets with watercolors is even worse...pretending to be the creator of your own world or piece of the world only leads to Napoleonic behavior and god-complexes!
What is healty:Manifest destiny (the taking of what is not yours with the price being paid by an entire race until they are nearly extinct), Conformity (be an individual like everyone else, shop at the Gap, resistance is futile), Smoke-drink-shoot dope and fuck everything in sight like your favorite actor or singer, Torture your class/workmates with ridiculous taunts and violence knowing that in no way can they retaliate because you are cool and they are not.
In closing (as I am now completely pissed off): To the parents of the attackers in Columbine and everywhere else - Fuck you for not doing your job. And to the parents of the attacked - Fuck you for not teaching your children tolerance and civility. To those seeking to put a price on blame so that they may become rich - Fuck you and your gold-digging and know that if you are Christian and believe in your God's laws regarding salvation that you WILL burn in hell for your vengeful intolerant actions.
Frankly, everyone got what they deserved. The two that did the killing had openly advertised their intent and progress to their targets and those targets probably went right on goading them. Poke and injured bear with a stick after the first growl and you get what you deserve. If the kids that saw the videos and the threats didn't tell people then they failed to protect themselves and if they did tell their parents or whoever and they did not respond then they failed to protect their children. If my child came to me (and I have 4) with a web site or reporting videos and stories like those I would immediately pull them all from school and march my 6'1" 240lbs ass to that school with the police and tell every parent I could find. I do NOT compromise the safety of my or any other children as it is my job as a parent to see to the safe upbringing of my kids --- PERIOD. Argue all you want, but that is the only proven purpose for life - to see that the species continues to flourish.
Not having kids play cool video games is
having kids feeling uncool, boored, frustrated and easy to have a grip on, obviously.
It`s them having to search for cool alternatives on the web, like how to make H bombs and blow the pentagon or how to hack microsoft.be (again).
It`s them having to see these beautifull all-american documentaries (in technicolor) on tv or in the theatre on how to kill your neighbour in 30 movie shots.
It`s them sneaking around with books that no-on should read, including their own parents at age 16, but hey, they did so anyway.
One wonders what the point is of lawsystems and education if lawyers have even lost grip on the difference between imagination and reality.
I have been trashed with huge quantities of dangerous FPS radiation myself, yet, I wouldn`t ever think of actually shooting anyone. Come to think of it, where could I possible get a gun ? Fuck!.. Must be the shitty strict gun-license policies in my shitty country. Ah well..
With great power comes great electricity bills.
So by your reasoning..
If someone sells a gun they should ensure it's constructed in such away that someone can't injur (shoot) themself with it or ensure that the bullet is moving at a slow enough speed in order to reduce the risk of injury.
Cigarette makers should ensure that the packaging of the cigarette can't start a brush fire should a lit cigarette be tossed out a window.
Computer makers should need to ensure that children cannot access violent games or blur the games out to reduce the risk of school shootings.
Weak. That's the kind of reasoning that I'd expect from the "norm" of our society.
Ummm... AsbestosRush.... I think he was being sarcastic, dude. No lawsuit like this is ever gonna be a good one.
But I still wouldn't blame the MPAA, RIAA, and much less, a gaming company.
I also think he's got a point in there too - I mean, watching a brutal murder vividly portrayed on HBO or whatever *I* find more disturbing than watching some pixels fly around - but that wasn't any kind of serious suggestion. It was more of "get a clue, everyone".
This fact has found its way up here before, but every year over 2000 American kids under 19 years old are killed - by suicide.
Strangely, that doesn't seem to make the evening news. So they sensationalize the killings, but then they COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that for each of these killers, there are a THOUSAND or so who give in to the same real pressures (which are not video games) but quietly take only their own lives?
Look, you don't want to kill yourself after playing a video game. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a video game and real life probably also should never have been promoted to high school in the first place. The point is - the real problem is systemic, and it's not entertainment or whatever passes for it. It's the fact that the high schools that I and my friends remember were damn inhumane places to be for four years.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here. But this is something that I wish would get noticed - these few killings almost make a red herring to the fact that a huge number of deaths occur in this country, and actually only a small number of these kids take action against anyone but themselves.
Facts about suicide: More people die from suicide than from homicide in the U.S. Every day approximately 86 Americans commit suicide, and 1500 people attempt it. Nationwide in 1997, 21 percent of high school students had seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year, and 8 percent had attempted suicide. Females are more likely than males to attempt suicide; males are more likely to die in their first attempt.
Quotes from the Center for Disease Control: http://www.cdc.gov/safeusa/suicide.htm
Someone set up us the bomb.
Anybody have a GIF of Jack Valenti I can use?
Sure add more fuel to the fire.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Christ, this right up there with Fahrenheit 451. Why blame the games? It was the parents of the shooter who didn't teach thier kids the morals they needed.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
I understood the concept of 'games' for as long as I remember what game was.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
Dude, to "quote" from my post.
"But I still wouldn't blame the MPAA, RIAA, and much less, a gaming company."
Please read the "whole" comment.
Heh, it's cool
I can better see how they might blame the MPAA and RIAA. Movies are far more graphic(it looks a lot more real), and there are an infinite amount of songs that preach violence.
But I still wouldn't blame the MPAA, RIAA, and much less, a gaming company.
I want money just as much as the next guy, but I will settle for doing it the "right" way.
Justin
Great... Now they're probably going to mandate child saftey-locks on my BFG 9000...
Shameless plug for my photos on Flickr
And you, being human and finite, believe that your reasoning is better than God's - how arrogent! Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that that something doesn't exist, or that it exists in the way you interpret it to exist.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
When I was ages 12-14 I locked myself in my room and played Doom and DoomII all day over the modem with friends. Although I don't agree that it was healthy behavior, I have two points:
* I was a taunted "geek" that played violent games but...
* I've never shot, threatened to shoot, beat up, or even punched someone in my LIFE.
* My parents new what I was doing, and could (should?) have stopped/limited me.
* Some argue that when matured, using such games to take out agression (in moderation) is actually a good thing.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Funny, you ignore our religion and culture: a vengeful, violent biblical God who thinks nothing of wiping people out with plague
Besides the fact that your missing the whole point of Exodus, your logic is flawed. When one understands the nature of God, while not pulling the reality of violence out of context, you will understand that the Bible comunicates a loving God. You don't have to believe that what the Bible says is true, but what it preaches is not that of what you state.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
The problem today is that stupidity like this makes it more and more difficult for kids to play and be kids. We've all seen the stories about kids getting suspended for playing cops and robbers, which many of us played without turning into psychopaths. These days you can't buy a toy gun that looks real (even one that turns into a robot), meaning that if you want a realistic gun to play with, you need a real one. When I was a kid (which wasn't that long ago), we not only could buy realistic toy guns, but we could also bring them to school. We could probably even play cops and robbers with them if we were that ambitious. Despite all of this fantasy violence (which involved pointing what looked like real guns at real people), nobody thought to use real guns. Nobody shot anybody else, nobody died, nobody filed stupid lawsuits. Sometimes, when you have a sufficient substitute, you don't need the real thing.
Ever seen the bumper sticker that says:
"My kid beat up your honor student"?
Depressing.
-----
-----
Obviousness is always the enemy of correctness. -- Bertrand Russell
First: Then he asked Thompson to write Carmack a letter, "just to let him know we're on his trail." ... yah, because John Carmack is so hard to find, you need to be on his trail. It's so incredibly annoying to see people who have no clue what they're talking about become pundits and crusaders. It's right up there with hearing your parents talking in ebonics to try and communicate with your generation -- except more dangerous.
And I hope that every one of the parents involved in this lawsuit get their family's computers seized and searched, because I'd bet good money that one would find many "violent" video games on them. Yet, their kids didn't go on a shooting spree, even if they played these games AND watched The Basketball Diaries. Nope, their children were little angels, who did nothing remotely questionable. In fact, I bet their kids never even taunted, excluded, or attacked the shooters, nope they were innocents.
The size of the blinders put on by these people amazes me. How can anyone focus the blame for something like this onto one point? Doubtless the media played a role, it glorifies violence, be it in the form of movies, the 6 o'clock news, tabloid journalism, songs, and yes, even video games. However, MOST of the world's population can separate fantasy from reality, and see the depravity of violence and suffering in our society. Those that can't have problems, be it neglectful parenting or psychological disorders.
Regardless, the video game industry became a $20 billion a year industry because millions of people by millions of games, and out of those millions and millions, 10 people go nuts and kill/injure others. If this was any other product, it wouldn't be an issue. Even more murderers out there own cars, homes, pots and pans, refrigerators, ceramic mugs with witty cartoons. Most of them probably have drunk Coke, mineral water, or orange juice. What about whoever these kids get their guns from? Oh wait, the U.S. would NEVER bring out any real gun legistlation, because Americans have a right to own an AK-47, just in case the Queen decides to retake the old colony.
It's sad that not only do these people have no clue about who to blame (start by looking in the mirror), but they can't even grieve properly. A terrible thing has happened to these people, but instead of allowing themselves to heal and continue on with their lives, they prolong the pain for not only them, but the rest of the country, by filing lawsuits that have no chance of getting anywhere, assuming the judges involved have any wisdom.
It makes me sick.
- In hell, treason is the work of angels.
You never know when you could be attacked by fireball-hurling imps, or deranged sargents, running cybernetic eyeballs, skaarj commanders, UNATCO agents, nazi robots or Japanese businessmen who desperately want an ancient sword. Without my ultra-violent training simulat... uh I mean video games, how could I possibly fight back against an alien invasion?
- In hell, treason is the work of angels.
Violence has more of an impact than you would think. And unfortunately it's far subtler than most people would have you believe.
For those of you that think this is a ridiculous lawsuit - I have a challenge for you.
Not forever... Just for a month, or a week. I gave up TV, and Videogames for over a year, and I REALLY noticed the effects. If you are wondering what you will do in your free time... and you will have a lot of it... go to the Gym, read your textbooks, code something, design a flash movie for your girlfriend, pick up your guitar, play ultimate with your friends, go on a date, learn python, etc. There are a lot of things that you could be doing actively that will better yourself, and pump up your resume/relationships with others.
It is very easy to go "that game is so disgusting... I wonder what this gun does... hmmm... that's gross too. What does this on do" and get hooked again. (Again, I did, and I wished I hadn't)
I installed black and white the other day. My girlfriend spent hours playing with her creature. I zipped around completing quests. My friend made field goals with the villagers through the mountains.
For all of you brave enough to try changing your lifestyle for a whil -- I wish you like.
This must be why all the American women I know want to move to Afghanistan.
Wake up, guy, women generally are sexual beings. They like to display that side of themselves. And men are violent beings, in part. In a world where the men display their violence in video games, and the women display their sexuality on the street ... well, aren't those just about the ideal places to focus the expression of these two traits? Or do you prefer violence in the street and sex on video tape?
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Linda Sanders, wife of slain teacher Dave Sanders, and two of his stepdaughters filed a multibillion-dollar, class-action lawsuit
Money will not heal your wounds
Thursday against 25 media companies, most of which manufacture or distribute video games.
I would love to see a list. Don't worry about the fact that guns are easy to obtain. Lets worry about entertainment. I love counter-strike but I have yet to orgainize a strike team to rescue hostages.
And on Friday, the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids.
People still play Doom, thats not very life like. I don't hunt down evil monsters! They should have been trying something more like Rainbow 6
He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30.
Do you really think this will stop ALL kids from obtaining the software. How many kids acutally paid for doom?
I can see it now...
'Manic Miner turned my son into a psychopath'
Of course this is not fault of guns understood as a piece of metal. The problem is with easy access to guns.
The problem might be in someone's mind, but possesing a gun greatly increases one's capabilities.
A kid in a highschool simply wouldn't be able to do anything more than injure someone if not for the guns.
The virtual lack of gun control in the US *does* damage. Face the truth.
Regards,
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
I see exactly, what is wrong with these kids and with their parents. It can be clearly seen from the outside. And yes, the culture itself is at fault. That very culture, the worship of guns is part of. This things are linked , and if you fail to see it, you are willingly blind.
And yes, limiting access to guns would make things better.
Now the Swiss. Daddy's assault rifle in Switzerland as far as I know is a part of his soldier's equipment that he receives upon completion of a necessary *military* training. That would include taking care of a gun in your possession in appropriate manner.
For most of my childhood my father kept his gun at home (it wasn't in the US). However, I hardly recall seeing it and I never had any access to it.
Now, imagine all the gun owners in the USA being required to go through a 3 month boot camp to be allowed to keep their guns.
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
I am not going to. I don't know the methodology behind the research because I have no idea, what particular study you are referring to. If you intend to use scientific research to support your point, you need to provide some reference.
BTW: It appears to be 'evidence' in form of social studies supporting both points of view. Credibility of both parties appears to be similar. I hate to say that, but as the matter of fact, the issue appears to be more the matter of one's beliefs than of any 'science'.
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
I have to think that this oppression is what makes (or should I say contributes) to some of these kids going crazy.
And now the solution to these kids is to just keep taking away more rights:
Just a few years ago, at 16 (probably younger) I could:
- Play any damn video game I wanted
- Buy any damn CD I wanted
- Buy cigarettes
- See any rated-R movie
- Drive
- .......
And kids at 16 are pretty damn smart. They've been around. A lot of them hold jobs. They are adults.Now we keep taking away these freedoms from young people to "protect them". Maybe I'm being silly, but if my life was as restrictive when I was 16 as they're trying to make it for today's 16 year olds, I might have cracked too.
--tim
Actually Waco is good example of how armed resistance by average citizens can affect government behavior. Now the Branch Davidians were a bunch of nutjobs probably up to illegal activities, and I believe David Koresh and his henchmen are responsible for all the deaths that occured during the standoff. However, the whole incident brought to light malfeasance on the part of the ATF and the DOJ, and certainly they've been abusive in the past. Since Waco, the ATF has been treading much more carefully trying to avoid situations like the one that happened. They're also under greater congressional and media scrutiny nowadays. Just the fact that they *could* face another Waco is enough to restrain their current behavior.
All that gobble-gobble-gobble me! me! me!
waiting for that lucky turn when you kill the others who have been chasing you around the place, picking on you. It really is Pacman's fault; not the fault of a system that turns a blind eye to bullying and thousand of depressed kids commiting suicide because they got stuck at the bottom of the HS pecking order. Damn Pacman, if only we could turn back the clock.. No one ever shot up their classes when all we had was pong.
sic semper tyrranis
Look at the movies people watched in the forties to the sixties.. non-stop gunfight westerns and gut-stabbing marine movies. Kids played gun games more when I was a kid than they did when the columbine generation were the same age. I guess the only thing that leaves is the sex.. and ya your right I enjoy it to much to believe it's harmful.
sic semper tyrranis
Puh-lease.
I think this situation is indicative of the curent crop of parents in this country:
1) They take their kids to day care and pay someone else to raise them
2) They are more concerned with their own lives than the lives of their children
3) They refuse to take responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof
4) They replace corporal punishment and teachings of respect and dicipline with "time outs"
5) They wonder where society failed their children, while refusing to look at themselves first
6) The entire concept of "parental supervision" is a vague to them as "helping kids with their homework"
These people need to put away their Dr. Spock books and pick up Corps Values instead.
---
MacTacToe - for every problem, an elegant solution
Senseless auto-killing brainwashing ought only be reserved for those over 18.
We all know people over 18 know better than that.
While I wouldn't consider holding the teachers responsible an absolute, I believe that in some cases the teachers are aware of some of the key factors that lead to these incidents. I believe that bullying and social ostracism are both frequently visible to school authorities (teachers, administrators, etc.) and motivating factors in students acting out violently. It seems to me that knowing other people only as sadistic entities bent on making the shooter's existence a living hell is likely what allows that person to dehumanize his peers enough that he has no qualms against killing them.
I did the better thing, and bitched out the reporter for not letting us know how to contact these idiots, and tell them how insane they are.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Who the fuck modded this as "flamebait"? It's a completely valid and insightful post. I completely agree with you, and if I had mod points right now I'd fix that. (Although I'm not 100% sure about your Muslim facts.)
If you want clinical proof, read "Reviving Ophelia", and then say imagery doesn't have a negative impact on people. Annorexia and bulimia aren't genetic, folks. The same thing happens to boys and men (Susan Faludi, "Stiffed"). I suspect the clinical trials about violence and boys will appear in the next few years, as they take many years to complete and haven't become a hotbutton until recently.
Despite documented evidence, I hoonesly believe conditioning absolutely occurs based on my life experience. It may not cause someone to kill dozens of schoolmates, but I think it definitely occurs.
---
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
and for our next trick, we'll be suing george lucas for the explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger.
http://www.clango.org
What if games like QUAKE,DOOM,etc.. Had not Existed? Would Harris and Klebold had been picked on Any less in school? Would they have hated their classmates any less? Do you think that their parents and teachers would have payed more attention to what they were doing? Do you HONESTLY believe that the COLOMBINE shooting wouldn't have happened anyway?
What's next?! Are people going to sue Namco because ravers are running around in dark rooms, listening to electronic music, popping pills?
[SEVERE SARCASM]when I was a young man, oh say around 1st grade age; you see....since we used to play games like "Cowboys and Indians" with real-looking guns and rifles, it came so very easy to actually gun down a real indian boy in the neighborhood, so I see where these ppl are coming from... [SARCASM OFF] :) LOL
Man oh man, I'm sure I couldn't comprehend the loss these families went through, but this is getting _REALLY_ tired.
But.....in all seriousness, if I ever go off the deep end....and I am able to control a REAL weapon with a KEYBOARD AND A MOUSE, lookout!!
Oh yeah, and I'll need the "Crosshair" option turned on in real life since my aim isn't all that hot without it
-----------------------------
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
This is the most ludicrous thing I've heard in a long time. It's bad enough that people are blaming violent tv shows and video games for Columbines. Now these people have so adequately convinced themselves of the "cause" that they are pursuing legal action against the companies they think are responsible! This is craziness. Everybody needs to just stop, take a step back from the madness and actually listen to the kids. Jumping to these hasty conclusions (especially ones with so little collaborating research) is going to get us in the end.
Speaking of television studios, have you ever wondered why some big chain stores (like Wal-Mart and K-Mart) censor their music, but not anything else? "Oh, it wasn't the music little Johny listened too, that was censored! It was those DVDs he watched, those games he played, even a few of those books he read! The music had all the bad stuff taken out of it, we won't sue them! It was those other people's fault!" Really, some people need to get a grip.
God was my copilot, but then we crashed on the top of a mountain and i had to eat him...
It's because of David Hasselhoff's fantabulous acting abilities. Why else?
Steven
I only watch Baywatch for the opening sequence
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
The right of the people to be armed is very much a powerful check against the possibility of opressive government - something countries who have banned their citizens from owning guns are now susceptible to.
Frankly, this is a silly statement. If you want proof of that, just look north. AFAIK, Canada does not have an equivalent to the 2nd amendment. To say that Canada is in danger of becoming a fascist state is completely ridiculous. Ditto for most Europeans countries, I would suspect.
It would not surprise me to see a semi-fascist state(complete with the loss of any individual rights) with a charismatic leader rise out of the EU.
Your argument ignores the fact that a charismatic leader arising in the US would be just as able to drum up support for his (unlikely to be "her", unfortunately) policies amongst gun owners. In fact, such a leader would be an idiot not to, given the number of gun owners. Assuming that the vast majority of people following the fascist leader now have guns, you're not really any better off than when you started. What you would now have is 80 million+ fascist leader-loving gunowners.
Being an optimist, I would hope that most of these gun owners would not be swayed by this charismatic leader's statements, so as to fulfill the original intentions of the 2nd amendment. We now have civil war involving 80 million+ guns. I think I would prefer the gunless alternative.
You could argue that there seems to be a strong correlation between unhappiness and violence. Unhappiness is a difficult subject to pin down, but a big factor might be income equality. If you look at societies with flatter income distributions, such as Japan and some of Europe, the incidence of reported violence is much lower. If you remove the influence of petty dictators and such, African nations also enjoy these benefits. It is largely in countries where the people have great expectations that violence is a problem. To blatantly plagiarize an article I once read, in a society were everybody can become president, not becoming so makes you a failure.
The lawsuit seems to try to address income distribution, at any rate: the plaitiffs believe that there is an unfair income distribution (the companies are making money off of our children's lives) and are asking for a large sum to provide some equality. They could have (and did, partly) asked for other things, such as mandated ratings on games, stronger copy protection so that adult-themed games don't get shown to minors, etc. But asking for money is a tacit admission that money is where the companies are going to hurt most.
It's quite commendable that you hold up to your ideals so firmly. Sex and violence are bad so stay away, that way you won't breed and you won't be able to defend yourself when someone comes to kick your pansy ass and make you the next Goatse.cx guy.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
It is inevitable that someone would get blamed, but I truly think that video games are not the ones to strangle. My younger brother, who happens to be 18, has been playing video games for years. The fact is that he is often so engulfed in his games that has neither the time, nor the desire to locate a real weapon and do anything with it. (He also enjoys, camping, is quite fit, and would like to meet a nice God-fearing girl one day :-P .)
Regardless, we are always on the look out for someone to blame, and games are getting increasingly violent. Think back to not-so-old games like Contra on Nintendo, or the original Prince of Persia. These games were quite violent, but the later often involed some good puzzle solving skills. Have things really chnaged. In fact, the modern games like the just-released tribes 2, and huge franchises like the Half-Life series of mods, teach people to work together in teams, and in the end make friends.
Why don't we sue movie makers, the ones who really glorify violence, actually, no, lets sue, the cartoonists, the comic artists, the television manufacturers, and get them all to pay for the fact that I didn't have enough time to spend with my kids. How about that, because I'm not at fault, I'm never at fault, and I only hope the poor bastards who made little Johnny shoot all his friends have a few million for me to feel better.
Sick. Games are fiction. Most people do not have difficulty telling the difference between reality and fiction, and right and wrong for that matter. It's not up to the game companies, television channels, or film distributors to provide the morals for our children. It is up to us. Lets charish that responsibility.
yoink
If you'd thought about it for a brief minute before making the standard, boring "Americans are stupid" comment, you'd have realized that the poster was being sarcastic. None of those conflicts was won by the countries named.
Why should the punishment for a crime with a gun be any different than the punishment for the same crime with a knife, baseball bat, or other weapon? You're more likely to be injured in a robbery with a knife or club, since the attacker has to get in close and might just give you a whack or two to keep you from fighting back.
I've been clubbed over the head with a baseball bat. I've had a gun pointed at me. The baseball bat hurt a hell of a lot more.
So its the parents responsibility to monitor children, but not someones own responsibility to not not drop hot liquid in their lap?
Strange. Do Americans sue Ford if they fall in the road and get run over by a car?
no sig.
I do agree with jyak.
Don't they teach them the following song: "if you trust a child,...".
So, stop blaming corporations each time it is proven that education failed.
Schools are not the parents' backup.
If a child is well educated at home in both Love and confidece, then he will grow as expected.
If his models are either violent or absent, then they won't have the required mature point of view to let them discernate what is good or bad.
--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
What a bunch of moneygrubbing assholes. It's not about the money, huh? Well, 5 billion is an awful lot of money for it to NOT be about, isn't it? And again, there's the whole "let's blame the giant corporations for our own shortcomings as parents" thing. Bunch of wusses, if you ask me.
www.animejump.com Webzine, isn't it?
This is the worst idea I have heard in my life. If anything violent games are a good way to reduce stress and take out your violent tendancys safely without hurting anyone. I think the real questions that need to be asked are: "Where were the parents for the months and even years that led up to this tragedy" and not nececerally more importantly but certainly a equally important question is: "Where were the school administrators in the months and even years that led up to this tragedy". It was put so well on slashdot recently in the "Sean in the Middle" story here.
Let me just quote a few parts:
"It is illegal in this country to verbally threaten someone with harm. It is illegal in this country to touch someone without their permission. It is illegal in this country to molest other people's belongings without their permission. It is illegal in this country to band together in a group for the purpose of engaging in other illegal activities. All of this, and more, is illegal, everywhere but inside of a school!...The schools are loathe to get rid of problem students not because they want to educate those kids, or think that they belong in class, but because the schools get paid to keep them. The school administrations are consciously choosing to allow kids to continue to be abused daily because the school administration gets more money that way."
That is just wrong, and something needs to be done about it. The point of this rant is that it's not the gaming companys and the media who are to blame. It is the parents of the children that they are ignoring and the school administrators that look the other way when a child is being teased and bullied on mercelesly. That is what drive the children who do tarible things like the columbine masacre to do them, and both parents and school administrators look the other way untill it is too late.
JOIN !LINK CLUB!
Punish those who dance with the devil and distribute his evil.
"It's conditioning. For instance, in Muslim countries women aren't leered at and treated as sex objects, because society conditions them not to."
But murdering them based on rumor for reasons of male honor is okay. And of course buying 11 year old girls from India and calling them brides is non sexist too.
It is awfully easy to see the faults of other's while ignoring your own.
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
I don't get your point about exposure to sexual content. Are you trying to say that in "Muslim" countries there is less sexual and/or violent crimes than in other parts of the world?
>the rock-music-entices-suicide cases were all
>won by the defense
umm Dead Kennedys? Lately they have gotten a clue and been telling parents to get a life and take their own responsibility, but way back when the Dead Kennedys disbanded rather than paying off the stupid lawsuit they lost.
For the first example, consider a youth growing up, dealing with homosexuality. If they are raised in a community where it is considered a sin and not promoted as a possible lifestyle, then that person may even deny their own feelings, force themselves to live the straight life, and ignore their impulses ("Sex is for procreation, anyway - why should there be any pleasure or desire?").
T.V. and movies would tell the same person that there are places where those feelings are accepted, that all it may take is to move to a different city, and that person may act on this new knowledge. In the eyes of the community, media has harmed the person from having the "good" life, and tempted the person into the lifestyle. Others here may disagree. That's why we have freedom of speech here - we believe the pursuit of happiness is meaningless without alternatives.
The second way is a little more damaging, in my opinion. Sex and violence is the meat and potatos of media - they are exciting, get the blood racing, and sometimes make the audience more engrossed in the story. The CBS version of the Sopranos probably wouldn't be as critically lauded as the HBO version, for instance. However, when this is taken to extremes, all male-female relationships become sex, with the women's figures taken straight out of Playboy, and the more ellicit the sex, the better. There are few representations of less-than-perfect women being sex partners (although the guys get away with looking like Tony Soprano or that King-of-Queens guy), and most sex is framed in one-night-stands or affairs, little of it within a marriage. If a kid was only exposed to these representations, they would get a very skewed image of male-female relationships, what women are desirable, and a very narrow view of the purpose of sex.
Those of us who have been exposed in the real world to a fuller spectrum of humanity (good parents, role models, etc.), recognize the media as entertainment, blowing up the more exciting parts of life to un-lifelike proportions. Those who don't see those alternatives think that the media is telling the whole story, and form their mental landscape around thse stories.
For most of us, Quake, Counter-strike, and the like are just games, diversions that get our heart pumping, but have little relevance in our lives. We may fantacize that we are building skills that may help us if war ever breaks out, and we are practicing amateur squad combat in the streets, but it is just fantasy for us, relegated to a proper role in our psyche.
For some, that have no experience working out problems by talking them out, who see only violence in human relationships, who have the "bad" parents, these are not just games, but they are the alternative. You either get picked on and take it, or you get a gun and get even. There is no middle ground, of going to an administrator or a parent, or working out and dealing with it with a little punching. It's stay quiet, until you get "brave" enough to get a gun.
Sure, it's the parent's fault, because they didn't have a loving home environment that taught the alternatives to violence. Sure, it's the administrators fault, for not stopping bullys and not being approachable. Sure, it's the grand-parents fault for raising the parents so badly. Sure, it's society's fault, for teaching that football players are more valuable than the computer geeks, and that power is everthing, and that guns are a shortcut to power. But isn't it also the media's fault, for going to the extremes, selling violent and anti-social products for their "entertainment" value, not considering if they are using free-speech as a cover, or if they are promoting an alternative that may point to happiness?
I hope the lawsuit loses. Games are usually better than T.V. and movies, in that the situations are obviously not real-life situation. I know Quake is fantasy, but HBO tries to convey that the Sopranos is one flavor of real life. At the same time, I hope the manufacturers question the wisdom of selling this violent entertainment to 13-year-old boys, who have enough hormonal problems to work out, for whom the lines between fantasy and real-life are blurred anyway.
The idea that humans are naturally kind and peaceful and decent, and would stay that way unless exposed to "Quake" and "Reservoir Dogs", is quite wrong. The "noble savage" isn't noble at all, and is very savage indeed. We should be kind and peaceful and decent, this is our moral duty, but we aren't that way by nature. If we were, there'd be no need for morality as a concept.
The "conditioning" that's going on in society is conditioning away from violence; teaching kids to share, to be polite, to wait turns and ask nicely, is conditioning. Attraction to violence is the natural state that conditioning works against.
By all means condemn violence, that's part of the conditioning process. But don't forget to give credit for peace.
As to your other point, women in Muslim (or other theocratic) countries are far more strongly confined into a role as sex objects than in secular democracies. In our societies a woman is a sex object, of course, but is much freer to define herself as a complete person, as worker, employer, public servant, investor, artist, whatever she wants to do.
We are all sex objects, assuming we're at all attractive! This is necessary and good. What kind of sexual relationship could you have unless you desire your partner, and your partner desires you? How are you going to find a partner if you don't desire some range of people?
"Leering" takes that same role in sexual appreciation that vulgar insults take in conversation. Decent people don't. Leering is not inherent in the concept of viewing people as sex objects, nor is porn always dehumanizing or disempowering. Leering and the sort of porn that appeals to a leerer is all about control, and especially about sex as a means of controlling and of control over the sexual expression of others.
This misapprehension is the core of the American--and generally, human--fear of sexuality: the erroneous idea that sexual appreciation must involve the control and dehumanization of the person appreciated.
It is natural to desire control over a sexually attractive person, just as it is natural to desire that a person who is annoying us should be harmed, or a person that we like should be unfairly advantaged. Morality is the reason why we don't just do whatever is natural to us. We recognize the concept of other people's rights and feelings.
Darryl.
maybe the governmant should sue the parents for not caring enough to bring up well-adjusted children.
It's obvious that they are guilty of negligence for not protecting the world from their offspring.
PS I _know_ it's a little more complicated than that but I thinkn it's the basic underlying fact that the parent's (and many other parents) don't want to face up to.
Better the pride that resides in a Citizen of the world, than the pride that divides when a colourful rag is unfurled
Guns are not the problem, it is the people who use them to kill others. Even if guns were banned alltogether they would still get into the country by illegal means. And the reason for that is because a criminal who is cometing a crime will not care if he has an extra charge of "having an illegal weapon" or not. And it is these same people who will continue to sell and or give them to the people who wish to hose a bunch of people, in a school or not.
And No it would not be "Harder" to get a gun under these criteria, I could go to almost any city in the US and get an illegal gun and ammo in under 45 min. if One imposed the banning of all guns the it MIIGHT take an hour.
The point is this the guns will ALWAYS be there for those that want them reguardless of what oaws and bans you put into place. To stop these shooting we need to take a harder look at the ROOT CAUSE, and address that, not just treat the symptoms.
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
And those of us seventeen years of age...?
"Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion."
"Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion."
-C. Northcote Parkinson
That's right. Those cowboy-western movies? Have you ever seen so many people get shot and killed? It's irrelevant that we grew up to them with, so many fond memories. Gotta get rid of them.
Schoolyard games like Cops and Robbers? We must outlaw fun.
History is replete with violent civilizations and individuals. Take Rome and its gladiators, for example. Surely this has an effect on our children -- who can blame them for wanting to be a gladiator when we teach it to them in our schools? We must stop teaching history!
All those wars and those killings described in the Bible? David vs. Goliath anybody? Wow, even the Bible must go, it's too violent.
Come on, people. Violent media wasn't the problem. If it was, then we would have seen problems like this LONG ago.
t14m4t
67.5% Slashdot Pure I guess I need to work on that....
Serriously, the games ARE labled as being violent, if the parents payed any attention at all they would have noticed that the boys were playing violent video games. The real problem is the fact that so many people ignored the warning signs that these boys were troubled that they obviously (and understandibly so) feel guilty.
'Course the best way to releive your guily feelings is to get everone to blame everyone else, because if you took resposibilty for your own actions (or lack thereof) that would make you as much a murderer as the shooters.
Because Games, unlike alcohol, leave your system when you put them down. You also can't do a blood or breath test to find out how many games somebody had played, nor whether or not their judgement is impared. People also don't get arrested for DUI for having played one to many rounds of Quack.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Maybe Jesus loves you, but he sure as hell doesn't love everybody. The actions of his churches are proof.
Just to get my opinion in, but what Jesus wants and what the churches actually do may be two completely different things.
but i'm an Agnostic, so i'm not taking any sides.
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
Funny.. when minority kids go shooting up schools, it must be something in their environment. It's the gangs. It's the drug laden inner city. It's those darn minority parents, not raising their kids properly. It's single moms. When little suburban white kids start going psycho, everyone starts looking for big "societal" problems. It's the violence in the media. It's the video games. It's movies, and tv. What is this strange new factor that's suddenly affecting "all our kids"? Right. How about we start looking at what, specifically, is the problem with predominantly white, suburban, teenagers and their culture of cliques and social ostracism?
The school system itself is to blame. It is cruel and unusual punishment, aimed not at criminals, but children.
Most think our schools are good and necessary simply because they are too ignorant to consider the structural implications, nor do they have the faculties to imagine an alternative. This has to do with their lack of an education. In that respect, the education system works: people LEARN to be intellectually apathetic. The question is: who does it work for?
Children, trapped in classrooms, start to pick on other children, simply to relieve the boredom. Occasionally the victims, feeling they can't escape, freak out. I can see how these kids might use video games to drive their fantasies of revenge. But it's easy to the blame video games. And it's easy to blame "mental illness". It's alot harder to question some of our most basic assumptions about learning and discipline. After all, if I create an unhealthy environment for you to grow up in, am I not to blame if you become mentally ill as a result?
Kids are shooting each other at school! And it boggles my mind that nobody even considers taking a hard look at this bizarre system we've created.
Some required reading:
http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html
http://www.alfiekohn.com/teaching/articles.htm
Read first, comment second.
I feel like I'm not cool now. I've been playing video games that are violent what seems like forever now. I remember when I was 12, playing Wolfenstien for hours on end, and then moved up the ranks w/ Doom, Rainbow 6, Counter-Strike, Soldier of Fortune, and now Day of Defeat.
... I'm sure if I had access to guns I'd be more likely to think about shooting these people, but I don't. It is next to impossible for me to get a gun w/ the people I know. And this is ANY gun. (yes, I live in Canada)
And I'm not cool cause I didn't go blow away any of the kid's who were teasing me in high school (and trust me, it did cross my mind for a way to get back at them somehow)
Hehe, I also listen to KMFDM, and Marilyn Manson. I probably would have been friend's w/ the Trenchcoat guys.
I think I accidently slipped in the thing about guns being the source of the problem. I'm sure easy access to guns doesn't make things any better, but I was more focusing on the idea that, I should be a psycho because I fill all the other requirements to go on a massive shooting rampage like those trenchcoat mafia guys.
...
I wasn't trying to shift blame, but just point out that "I am almost EXACTLY like those guys" - especially when I was 16, and I never went on a murderous rampage at my school. I played the same games, listened to the music, I guess it was the punk scene influence that maybe prevented this
And people like to pretend, probably because they enjoy porn and violence, that it doesn't harm people, but anyone who can seriously believe this is quite frankly mad.
If you consistently expose people to sex and violence they grow to accept it. It's as obvious as anything. It's conditioning. For instance, in Muslim countries women aren't leered at and treated as sex objects, because society conditions them not to. In Western societies, women are objectified through their portrayal as breasts on a stick on TV.
That's how conditioning works, and that's what's happened here. There is no way that violence has no effect. Just as kids exposed to lots of swearing swear more than those in environemnts where swearing is taboo, those exposed to violence are more violent. Anyone who says otherwise is only doing so because they enjoy violence and sex so much.
HA! Yeah! This is just another typical american law-suit of the type: "I'm too stupid to realize that McDonald's coffee is hot and I have burned my tounge, so I'll just sue them for my blatant ignorance.")
Power to the white trash community and let's strike down thee who dares to challenge our dimwitted brains.
Boy, I do love Diablo II though. Maybe I'll hack my schoolmates into small bits with a Sabre.
Would someone please e-mail me at the (reversed) address above when Carmack's .plan changes to reflect this latest abuse of the American justice system?
Do not touch -Willie
Why stop at suing the game companies? Sue television studios for making violent tv shows, sue the RIAA for making violent music, hell, bring in individual musicians, we know they're all at fault! Sue film studios too, we all know they make enough money!
Don't even think about blaming the parents for not paying attention to their kids. No no, that couldn't be the problem. Never! They were model parents who didn't even notice when their kids were making bombs in the backyard!
Besides, we all know that money is a panacea for all wounds. Once you get that money, baby, you'll be alright. It will be like little Timmy never died. You can stuff up that hole in your heart with cash, it's the American way.
!-- wit --!
don't forget to sue the parts manufactureres too!
!-- wit --!
actually, i agree. if i had a quake shirt, i'd be wearing it. . . why don't they just come up here and sue me. once they get all thatblame spread around, everyone wil be responsible for that stupid shooting.
the ironic part is that society is partly to blame, but who am i to point a finger?
!-- wit --!
Wow, I can just see this guy trying to figure out this vexing situation:
"Hmmm... principles or 60% of a $5 billion dollar settlement? Principles or 60%?"
Anyone want to place bets on which will win out?
-------
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
How about the line: "Playing Quake as a kid taught me what bullets and grenades do to flesh and bone and I knew damned well that I would regret hurting a person like that."
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
News(San Francisco): Student jumps from bridge and lives. He was quoted as saying: I'll sue CounterStrike for this! I got the idea to jump from playing the "vertigo" map - it is so much fun to jump out of the window.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
What's next... Dungeons & Dragons?
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
This reminds me of a saying on a local radio station in Joliet, IL. It talks about heavy metal music, but the meaning is the same:
Heavy metal doesn't create psychos, it just helps psychos be more creative.
It's much more productive to find out who is mentally unstable in an environment, than to waste resources blaming others for something than cannot be reversed. I feel that some of these cases can be prevented by paying attention to what the mentally unstable kids are saying and doing. There are some people who like to kill just for fun or whatever, but I think most of this type of violence is caused by some kids looking for attention, or being frustrated/stressed out due to constant negative attention by their peers.
Parents should spend less time in court, and more time talking to their kids to find out what's going on in their lives.
Peace.
Dont rate this as flamebait, but think about it Maybe its not the games? Maybe its people like this who destroy the integrity and freedom we should all have. These businesses are simply trying to get ahead. Its called Capitalism. I hope the game companies win.
This is a great idea. I think that they should be able to sue those bastards.
Hell, next week I'm going to sue the Boston Red Sox for not winning a World Series in 90-something years.
--The space between my ears was intentionally left blank--
25 companies being sued, huh? Did Klebold or Harris even have that many games?
;-)
Quite possibly! In fact, for helping them get up to that amount, I think we should sue the CD-Burner companies! And then the CDR companies! I mean, what do you think the chances are that most of those games were originals?
Seriously, I am actually kinda curious about the number of purchased games vs. copied. I think it'd be kinda funny to limit who can buy these games, but the games that are blamed in these cases always turn out to be copies, so the ban never applied..
... why not just sue every computer manufacturer for making these games playable?
i was a jock for a long time, but we are all not encouraged this way. I was trained to be competative and all of that, but sportsmanship was the biggest thing taught on all of our teams, and if you were caught or accused of bullying you were cast off of the team. The teams that i played on were very competitive and won championships quite often, but without all of the shit that causes these problems.
Lawyers are ALWAYS 100% for free speech until they see a way to make money.
/*drunk.. fix later*/
That totally sucks, why do they need to scapegoat a ton of other companies because their f*cked up kids (who are just plain crazy) killed a bunch of people. "Hi my relatives died, lets steal some innocent companies money now and become rich" - thats the attitude they seem to have.
I think Chris Rock said it best:
"Whatever happened to CRAZY. What happened to crazy, what you can't be crazy no more? Did we illiminate crazy from the dictionary? F*ck the records, f*ck the movies... CRAZZZYYY. When I was a kid, they used to seperate the crazy kids from everybody. When I was a kid the crazy kids went to school in a little ass bus; they had a class at the end of the school and they used to get out of school at 2:30 just in case they were crazy - they would only hurt other crazy kids." -- Chris Rock
Well after reading it looks like everything to be covered has been covered...
I just didn't feel like being left out of the posts!
Linuxrunner
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
- actually looked at what the child was playing
- attempted to show some previous concern
that this might not have happened, at least according to the parent's logic.So, maybe the PARENT SHOULD BE TRIED FOR NEGLIGANCE as well as being an ACCESSORY.After all, if the parents had PREVENTED the child from playing the game the entire incident could not have occured - hence the parent's lawsuit is also frivilous...
**common sense - isn't**
p.s. if some lawyer uses this arguement, at least cut me in for part of the settlement
Would you care for a jelly baby?
is twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty.
--
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
Actually, by that logic you are now more inclined to pose for pictures with you asshole stretched open, doctor them up in Photoshop, and then post them to the web for shock effect... If you are a flaming homo, it would be from overexposure to massive amounts of homosexual pornography. What are you trying to say? Maybe its a little of both =)
This will probably get me flamed and modded down, but its not like I have any karma anyway so . . .
Why not counter with a lawsuit against the school district, the school itself, its administrators et cetera, claiming that they where negligent in their duties?
The reason (one of the many reaons, actually) that these kids snapped seems to be the constant harassment, belittling, and general torure that they suffered at the hands of the more "popular" kids. Surely the school district and the school itself has an obligation to look into this sort of thing, and perhaps even, god forbid, punish the harassers as well.
Perhaps if the school paid a little more attention to the harassment and bullying that goes on, this sort of thing wouldn't have happened.
It would seem that a more likely culprit then videogames would be the constant societal pressure these kids faced as a result of the negligent actions of the school itself. Instead of suing video game companies (who we all seem to believe are not the cause of this tragedy), why not sue somebody who at least has a real hand in causing this tradgedy to occur?
----
One of us needs to stick ones' head in a bucket of ice water.
- Hobbes
I agree. I also don't understand why these families are suing FOR MONEY. If they really want to make a positive contribution to society, money is not what they should be after. These people should be lobbying government to put a code of practice in place. Put some kind of ratings on games, stop childrens access to violent games. Or they should be trying to get the games' producers to provide these kind of restrictions. I can't see why these people would want to put themselves through another court trial, other than for the money, if they want to rest their minds and show good intention they should start trying to help the problem, rather than create another one.
This is only a suprise to me becuase of the timing. Since money controls the country and the world, we use it punish and reward people. There will come a time when people won't do anything at all unless they get a reward. Does that sound anything like the fat rat experiments to anyone? We cannot blame our problems on others and expect money to magically mend the broken lives. Those kids were driven to violence by their parent's lack of interest in their lives and the general chemically induced lack of despair that all teenagers go through. Incidents like Columbine will not go away even if video games do.
How many kids acutally paid for doom?
i won a copy free from id for some sweepstakes or another when i was about fifteen years old.
uh, oh. hope i don't get subpoenaed as another raving sociopath.
--saint----
My lawsuit, which was also filed on Thursday, is against the creators of Cops, The Practice, Perry Mason, Matlock, NYPD Blues and against John Grisman himself.
Ever since this incident, I cannot enjoy these shows and books as much as I have previously. I must be compensated for this and I tend to take it to the highest courts in the country.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
those exposed to violence are more violent. Anyone who says otherwise is only doing so because they enjoy violence and sex so much.
What drove the Columbine killers to kill was a lack of empathy for their fellow students. The average person who enjoys a good round of de_dust every now and then is no threat to society because this average person has friends in real life and can relate to others in non-destructive ways.
Here's a question for you, if E & R were driven to extreme acts of random violence as a result of video games, why didn't they start shooting at each other the moment they got the guns? Because they had empathy for each other -- it never would have occured to them to kill each other. Unfortunately, they couldn't extend that to the other students for whatever reason, but the video games had NOTHING to do with that.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
I'm sorry to show off my ignorance, but does anyone know of any legal actions that were taken against the parents of the shooters in the Columbine massacre? I mean, that's how America's legal system works, right? Your kids screw up, they're underage, you take the blame, right?
I'm just curious, because that's where I would have placed the blame. It sounds cruel--it probably is cruel--and I have some limited sympathy for the parents whose children took their own lives after abruptly ending the lives of so many others, but I just can't stop asking myself: how did these kids build pipe bombs and modify shotguns in their own homes and their parents never noticed anything amiss?
This was a terrible tragedy, and I hope it never happens again. But as an avid game-player, I have to say that I have never observed any link between violent games and violent behavior. If someone has to be sued, let it be the people whose negligence allowed extremely disturbed children to arm themselves with lethal weaponry and vent their demons on their peers.
Take care,
Mark
Take care,
Mark
There is a solution...
I think that this is when the Golden Rule of the United States comes in to play:
"He who has the gold makes the rules."
He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30
Since when does Carmack have anything to do with how the engines he writes get distributed? Does he stand in every store that sells Quake3 and say "Lets see some ID before you buy that."? Furthermore, this whole thing is silly. How many of those of us on slashdot played Doom before we were 17? I know I did. Probably started around age 13, and I played Wolfenstein before that. And how many of us are vicious killers? Few, if any. The point is, you have severely disturbed before you get ahold of these games for them to turn you into a killer. Finger pointing gets you no where. I think it shows severely bad taste for these families to sue two years after this happened. It appears they're just seeking to profit off the loss of a loved one.</rant>
"// this is the most hacked, evil, bastardized thing I've ever seen. kjb"
"// this is the most hacked, evil, bastardized thing I've ever seen. kjb"
Forget suing the companies who make "violent" video games, what I really want to know is who is going to sue the jocks at Columbine? They are just as responsible for the shooting as anyone else in the situation. If the jocks didn't tease, harass, and beat-up the shooters on a daily basis then the they never would have snapped. If you ask me, the jocks are more of a catalyst than the "violent" video games (in this situation). I'm sure there are people here who remember being beaten up in High School, that is way more violent and emotionally damaging than any video game on the market today.
Oh wait, I forgot the jocks are the victims in this situation. Poor defenseless jocks.
Does anyone remember about a week after the shooting when they planted trees for all of the kids that died. Notice how the jocks and preps ripped out the trees planted in memory the shooters. Talk about making me sick. The same self-righteous people who caused the shooters to snap in the first place couldn't even stop picking on them after they were dead.
Thank God high school only lasts four years!
Maybe they shouldn't have been expected to know, but they damn well probably had it coming. Maybe if more bullies' parents (as if most of them aren't judgement proof, anyway) got sued into bankruptcy, there'd be less bullies and less school shootings.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Video games don't make kids like us violent. Kids like us make violent video games.
..I bet he's a Camper.
-- If no truths are spoken then no lies can hide --
yeah, shit....that's a good argument. no wonder the US has comparable rates of violent homicide as nations with strict gun laws.
oh no, that's right - it doesn't.
-Nano.
Dude, actually, I think the spelling of the word you were trying to type is "Bullshit".
Right. Sue all bullies. Sure. Much better. They should've known, that by taunting those kids, they would've directly caused the death of many people. Sure.
"The suit contends that the $20-billion-a-year video game industry will not effectively regulate itself, and that court intervention is necessary to keep violent games out of the hands of minors."
As a teenager who graduated from high school months after the Columbine shooting, I consider myself extremly in tune to what we (teens) "had access" to around the time of the shooting and before. I played the violent games, I saw the R movies. I also respected my parents, my teachers, my family, who knew what movies I was watching, knew what games I was playing, and shielded me from those things until they taught me the things every parent should teach their child.
I was taught right from wrong.
I was taught conflict resolution.
I had respect for other people, and had enough self esteem (and common sense) to know that school teasing was just that.
The notion that the video games these children played and the movies and television shows they watched are responsible in ANY way for the shooting is the most ignorant, misguided thing Ive ever heard. Are we all forgetting that DOOM (mentioned in the article) is set on some distant planet with a man defending himself and the world against evil Demonic creatures? (Did I mention being taught common sense?)
More and more every day I feel that the responsibility of raising a child is taken off of the parents, who forget that even though they gave birth to that child, once it becomes self aware, their respect must be earned. You must be active in your child's life, and, as is evident here, if you must give a damn.
I know very few of the details of the Columbine shooting. But from what I do know about all of the activity going on in the teens HOUSE (gee i remember having a hard tine finding a place and time to look at porn, never mind build bombs), because of the evident lack of caring and responsibility shown by the parents, the children were also obviously disturbed in some way or fashion.
I am in no way belittling what the kids went through at school. Yes, words hurt. When someone doesn't teach you that that's all they are, and tell you that they love you, care about you, are involved in your life, and act like they give a hoot every once and a while. It's very simple. (And, mind you, I am not an extremly God fearing person.) The parents neglected to raise these children. You cannot blame a video game, movie, television show, or any outside influence on a child's development when a parent, who is ultimatly responsible, does not fulfill their duty as people who bring a life into this world.
The people who should really be sued are the students who pushed them to far with constant verbal and physical abuse.
Blessed are the young, for they shall inherit the national debt. --Herbert Hoover
Yes, you are right, the parents and teachers of the kids are to blame. Yes many games are violent as well (SoF or Kingpin anyone ?)
These 'relatives' trying to blame the game industry are nothing but money hungry thugs who are trying to make as much profit as they can from the great tragedy at columbine and after all the deceased have been buried, these people come to spit on their graves.
Just a reminder to all :
...perhaps they should sue the Internet too!
Send in lawyers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hclowns
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Perhaps parents should watch what junior does with the allowance $ they give him because they're too busy doing one or more of the following:
Just because you dropped the cash (that you earned while working ridiculous hours and ignoring your children) on a nice house near a nice school district does not mean that you are entitled to a high school/babysitting service/parenting device! Raise your f*cking children! Perhaps, PERHAPS, the problem is not violent video games, but that these parents^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbreeders live in a community where many adults care about every thing/house/car/possession except for their own children.
end rant.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Suffice to say, United States laws that handle such matters may seem fair and legitimate, but they never seem to take into consideration the moral implications. Laws cannot bend and flex to an individual human being's circumstance. No, I am not saying that a killer under bully pressure should go unpunished, but I am not saying that the bully should go unpunished, either. The bully did not do tangible damage to anyone in any regular school shooting--Therefore, in my honest opinion, true justice cannot be served, only money on a shiny platter. I am not saying that any of this is right, I am only saying what is right in my mind. Thank you.
-
And the Angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots! The cries of the carrots!"
Ms. Liebeck was 79 at the time of the incident
Ms. Liebeck had 3rd-degree burns over 6% of her body. Her vagina was completely destroyed and had to be reconstructed by a plastic surgeon. She has permanent scarring over 16% of her body
Did she really still need her vagina at 79 years old?
"Boys have a Penis, Girls have a Vagina", kids say the darndest things!
Maggie repeatedly tried to kill Homer after watching the violence in Itchy and Scratchy. It was on TV, so it must be true. Media, therefore, must greatly affect a child's mind.
My religion forbids the use of sigs.
Again I must once again bring up Japan. And I hope the lawyers defending the video game companies do so as well.
In Japan there are horrible horrible things in TV and video games. Look at something like DragonBallZ which is for ages 10+ in USA is meant for 5 year olds in Japan. Video game popularity in Japan is so great that it is illegal to release an RPG on a school day because everyone will skip to get the game. Now remind me how many kids in Japan killed their classmates last year? Ok, good.
In Japan they have younger people watching more violent things, playing more violent games, and like 1 murder a year in the whole country. And that one is by accident. I persoally attribute it to the breakdown of the American Family. Who's fault is it? It's the fault of large large corporations, parents, and the government. Parents being at fault the most.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
They are asking for BILLIONS of dollars and say "oh, it's not about the money". Bull. Anytime someone starts saying "it's not about the money" it is definitely ONLY about the money.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
Should we try to countersue for them being sucky parents, and since their children did this, all sorts of children all over the country have done it?
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
Ozzy Osbourne...Metallica...Judas Priest...PMRC...AC/DC... In all cases, and upon inspection of the case, the problem was a horrible and less-than-nurturing family life. It wasn't the games or the music. When she first got word that her son was shooting up kids at the high school, Dylan Klebold's mom's first instinct was to CANCEL HER HAIR APPOINTMENT AT AN EXCLUSIVE SALON AND RESCHEDULE!!! No, it's not the games. How a kid can amass an arsenal and build pipe bombs in the basement without the parents knowing is simply beyond my comprehension.
I'm gonna sue because, after thousands of hours playing violent video games, I DIDN'T turn into a homicidal maniac. Clearly these products are defective...
Hm, why is it that every time something like this gets posted to /. I'm reminded of the Five Minute's Hate from 1984? I wonder.
Of course about 90-95% of us recognize this for the stupidity it is, and a certain majority in the US at large is against censoring games as such. Combine that with the fact that there's not yet been a suit that I've heard of that's succeeded in assigning responsibility to media producers for the actions of those who consumed their product. The great majority get dismissed before trial. I am willing, right now, to make a bet with anyone on /. that this suit will not succeed and that the plaintiffs will get nothing. Nada. Zip. The attorneys and the foundations created to benefit the families of kids killed in Littleton will however get increased media attention, which leads to more money in donations.
Truth is, the prosecuting attorney, DeCamp, is taking these people for a ride for his own aggrandizement, and rather than seek to address what's wrong in their community some people in Littleton have chosen to go along. Combine that with a strong conservative christian fundamentalist streak in the Littleton community and you end up with a class of people, convinced with the certainly that only religious faith can provide, that the devil in the form of electronic media had taken control of those kids' minds.
In my mind, the shooting was a terrible tragedy that could have been prevented. The larger cataclysm however will only be visible in the future, through a historical lens, and that is how everyone is choosing to use the event to achieve a personal, political, religious, or social aim. Some want to use it to outlaw guns. Some want to use it to further legalize guns in classrooms. Some have used it to alter the government's stance toward teacher-led preyer in schools. Some have used it as a call to go & believe in their religion. Some want to use it to regulate movies, music, and games they find objectionable, and others are using it to promote the idea that women should stay at home "where they belong". Some are just out for a buck. Depending on who you ask, some aims are sound and some are nuts. It's just a vulture-like feast of people and organizations that before the incident had an agenda & see Columbine as another tool, an emotional prop against which they can play their scene.
We get caught up in this idea that there's a thing out there we can change that'll make all our kids safe, solve all our prolems, and let us get back to our lives, and that's simply not the case. It requires all of us to personally make the changes in our own family and public lives that we see as pertinent to averting such horrific events, and that's for each of us to decide on our own. Get more involved with our kids? Rent or not rent that action flick? Go to church on Sunday? Decide for yourself, but don't let entrenched interests with obvious agendas tell you what's right and wrong here.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
Seen in an IRC Quit: Computer games don't affect us as children. Think about it, if Pac Man affected us, we would all be running around in a dark room, listening to repetitive music, and munching on pills Course, that's what some people do... damn pac man!
Read this:
http://webhome.idirect.com/~andyt/tmas.html
I am not suggesting that these parents are correct in suing ID and others over the Columbine deaths. They must take responsibility. But I am suggesting that /. readers who hold the media blameless are ignoring their own science and psychological studies.
For more in-depth info, look up "werther effect" and "social proof" on Google.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
Not to justify the actions of Klebold and whatshisname, but are video games REALLY the thing that pushed them over the edge? Wasn't it the years of tormenting from other kids (i.e. the Jocks that they shot), feeling outcast by others, etc.?
Hey, I wasn't a popular kid in school, and I sure as hell wanted to get revenge on the jocks and idiots that thought it was fun to pick on me and others... If I was a little less stable, THAT would have put me over the edge, not video games.
Shouldn't the victims be suing the kids that tormented these two, rather than iD et al? I guess that's just harder to proove...
MadCow.
Keyword: fuckoff
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
What better thing that to remove all self responsibility and parental-responsibility than to blame someone else.
;)
Are you going to try to convince me that because guns exist that they gun manufacturers are to blame for their mis-use? It falls right in line with the logic you attempted.
You have a slightly PC'd version of what goes on in Muslim countries. In "GOOD" Muslim countries that may be the case, but we have seen some extremes.
Sorry, I don't buy the conditioning theorey. If anything Television causes more harm than video games, and its been around longer constantly portraying guns, drugs, and ever other "soon to be sued industry" in some form.
This is about money, these game manufacturers have some, their a bunch of hippies, the drive fast cards, and they have homes for selling pixalated explosions and purple alien blood.
Can't have that, their irresponsible!
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
...please.
Get out from US, come to another country: better health plans (also called 'free'..), cheaper life, and no nonsense lawsuits. Oh, also no weapons to kids.
I KNOW it's not like that everywhere, but think for a moment: once they'll be able to sue you (and you'll have to fight back paying money..) for ANYTHING you say/write/do, wouldn't be better to go somewhere else to actually DO something useful?
How much time, money, resources and brain do you waste in such lawsuits and patent-workaround?
Aren't you people sick tired of that? Do you know that the world is different out there?
..just think about it..
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
'free' - no matter how much taxes you pay, if you need social help you'll have it. life is more important than bank account.
on the other hand, nobody forbids you to chose a better but expansive service.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
Why is it that ./ers seem so opposed to suing vidoe game manufactures, yet are all for blaming the guns? Maybe neither is to blame, maybe both are to blame, but the principles that tell me that it is wrong to sue the manufacter of a device because an individual misuses the device--either uses it for an incorrect purpose (guns) or takes it WAY too seriously and is therefore mentally affected (video games)-- by it seem to apply in both cases. Let's face it, gun manufacters will always have a reason to manufacture guns--if solely for the police and military. So long as there are guns made, Americans will be able to get ahold of them (I am using things like the drug war, prostitution, and prohibition as examples of how banning something does not do a whole lot to remove it from society). Are we always going to accept people blaming guns and gun manufacters everytime a child kills? When are we going to ask ourselves why the child kills instead of how is he able to? Until we take a hard look at why a child kills, video games, guns, books, the iternet, and freedom in general is in danger (note that I do not consider taking away guns as taking away my freedom, I just think it is serving as a "quick fix" for politicians who do not want to handle the more difficult issue. I also do not believe it will be effective in stopping the killings.)
As was previously noted, there are some little known facts to that case. Most people simply proclaim that she was stupid and didn't deserve anything. But, just to enrich Salshdot's general populace, let me clarify things for you.
1. The coffee was at 180 degrees (that's in Fahrenheit, I have no idea what it wa sin Celsius or Kelvin, nor do I care). Most other restauraunts served their coffee at 160 degrees. McDonald's increased their temp to make the coffee hotter for the customer when they got to wherever they were going to.
2. She was not driving, and the driver parked the car before she removed the lid.
3. The coffee caused very painful 3rd degree burns to her legs and...uhhh...lap area.
4. The McDonald's lawyers stated that she excaberated the injuries by not jumping out of her bucket seat when the coffee spilt. Of course, the lady was 80+ years old, so the jury saw this as being offensive, inconsiderate, and plain ol' stupid.
5. McDonald's had received numerous complaints about the temp of their coffee before this incident.
6. The jury awarded the verdict, which translated into 1 (or 2, I can't recall exactly) days of McDonald's coffee sales. They did this in order to send a message to McDonald's.
There. Now that you have all the facts, you're free to distort them at will.
As per usual the parents of the kids who were killed are simply striking out in a way that is natural when you kid has just been killed.
/. postings it is clear that in many schools this is overlooked because the bullies are members of the school sports team. Clearly if more emphasis was put on academic rather than sporting achievement then there would not be such a problem. Here in scotland by the time that you get to highschool school sports are almost meaningless and apart from a medals ceremony at the end of term, nothing is heard about them. We have had no children walk into school with a brace of firearms and start shooting.
That does not however give them the excuse to take it all out on an innocent third party - the gaming companies.
It is not like id (for example) released Doom with a little sticker on the box that says "Wouldn't it be fun to re-inact this out with your classmates?"
The argument that is often used here is that computer games glorify violence and the perpetrators played these games and became violent themselves. This is an idea based on utterly flawed logic. If computer games turned children into violent terrorists, then what about all the other children who play these games? It's not as if an entire nation is wandering about packing daddy's handgun and thinking of popping off the class.
Perhaps it is time to find out why they did this. I certainly know from my recent school life that people who are in anyway different are bullied for being so. From previous
This reminds me of the three questions at the beginning of the Amiga version (and I assume others) of Leisure Suit Larry. In theory, you wouldn't know the answers unles you were over 18 (they were mostly about 70's events, with the game being played in 88 or so). My favorite one was "The song American Pie is about:" with the correct answer being "Four minutes too long".
Of course, I was able to figure out the correct answers at 13. Sorta reminds me of the earlier gun argument. You can always find your way around technical barriers. That's what makes the human mind so powerful/dangerous.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem
Interesting point! Was anyone here surprised when they found out that the nerdy kids shot up the jocks?
Although I like Chris Rock's quip about their outsider status: "There was *SIX* of them [in the "trenchcoat mafia"]. I didn't have six friends in high school. I don't have six friends now!"
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem
er - you can't hold a teacher responsible for a student going nuts with a gun - I don't think it says "mediocrity in the classroom will be punished by death" in the contract's small print.
blazing a trail for mediocrity...
why can't we expect the parents of the bullies to control their children - or even the children themselves - if you are old enough to be in high school then you are old enough to know when you're not being nice. Some teachers do get involved - also some are too frightened to show an interest lest it be misinterpreted - but most are just trying to teach kids a subject as their job, not as their sacred calling in life to watch over them all like a safety net for when parents fail.
blazing a trail for mediocrity...
Back in the fall I wrote a little piece for my school paper, but they turned it down. It raises good points about if we are going to blame people of school violence and shootings, why just stop with games and music... why not blame more wholesome things? I wrote this as a person who knows this subject in depth, I was once told by one of my principals that "out of all the disgruntled white males I know Brendan, you would probably be the most likely I know to go into a school shooting." He didn't mean that in a joking way, he was dead serious. He was right. I was the most likely to do it for many reasons. Wanna know why I didn't? Cause I knew that if I did it would solve nothing, and even then, I had no desire to do such a thing. Video games don't take that idea away, only thing that can is you. You need to learn it for yourself. Anyway, if you want an interesting read check this article I wrote out, I think you might like it. Place the Blame by Brendan Grant I don't know about you, but I've had enough. I've had enough of the blame, the finger pointing, and the accusations, when it comes to the school shootings that have occurred over the last few years. Like with any major event where not all facts are known, everyone has their opinions of who is to blame, and what drove those people to do what they did. These theories range from the blame of the students parents, all the way to pointing the finger at things like video games and violence on television. Like with any ruling class, they will demonize those things that witch they do not understand, agree with or associate with. How many 50 year olds who spend any real time playing a 'violent' video game like Doom, or listen to 'satanic' music like Marilyn Manson. Not many, their primary users are more of a youthful group, so naturally, we get blamed. That blame doesn't just come into play with things like school shootings, but that is all I am going to explore today. What else could be to blame? Many say that what could be blamed has been, music, media, video games, and society, what else could be left? Think back to when you were growing up, did you ever play Cowboys and Indians, or the more current Cops and Robbers? Where you would stick your pointer finger out like the barrel of a gun, point it at someone and say BANG you're dead! Why hasn't someone blamed this wholesome childhood activity, on no, they are just kids being kids they say. That's exactly what teachers and parents say when kids in school complain about being made fun of or harassed by others at the school. It is those same harassed students that are the ones who bring the gun to schools generally, because they feel that they need that defense since no one else is willing/able to fix it. Look at the TV shows that many of our generation grew up on, should they be blame free? In GI Joe the 'good guys' would fight the 'bad guys', not just with words, but with guns and bombs. We never saw anyone die, but we knew what was happening, almost a Hitchcock style of it. In Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the turtles would fight the evil forces of Shredder, many of these battles would be against the Foot Soldiers, robots that could fight using the martial arts. It was rare when the turtles would leave a single one standing, granted they weren't human, but they looked human enough. Who is to say that such stimuli doesn't desensitize us to violence, you don't need to see gallons of blood on the movie screen when you are 17 years old to do it do you? Enough about TV, who saw the Homecoming parade recently? One of the bands had 2 girls holding white mock up rifles and were twirling them in the air, doing tricks with them. I wonder how many kids saw them, rather then having a deep respect for the power of the gun, and a slight fear of that power (as is healthy). In stead a child should easily be looking at them as nothing more then play things. That play thing idea, re enforced with other signals that they might have gotten growing up from watching GI Joe shooting the forces of Cobra. Who is to say that all of these signs that were programmed into us as we grow up aren't as much to blame for school violence as Doom or Marilyn Manson is. Maybe they are all to blame, maybe not. But I personally am getting so sick of the powers that be blaming those things that they don't understand or in some cases aren't a part of. What's next, placing the blame on religion, ethic background, or even sex? That raises a question, in some schools, trench coats have been ban for fear of that school having their own Trench Coat Mafia, has anyone realized that all of the school shooters have been male, why haven't they ban all men in schools, after all, we are the only ones have gone in shooting. In the end, placing blame on such stereotypical groups wont help, it's like saying all Nazi's were like Hitler, that all Priests molest little boys, or that all politicians lie. Some out of any group do bad things, but is it really fair to blame the group as a whole?
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
I think it's time for me to write a script to send the DOJ about six million emails telling them they need to work on this system a little.
... "Son suing father over incident that happened 20 years ago."
umm.. I think I see it more in the lines of "FBI arrests yet another DoS/spam convict"
But, seriously, that sig is pure evil! I got a Blue Screen of Death! (That's Windows lingo for a rather severe crash) I had to sit around and wait for scandisk to scrape my drive back together; I could have been happily reading posts.
I see two (simplified) ways of looking at this.
1. Kids made violent from playing video games shoot up school.
2. Violent kids that shot up school played video games.
well, in the realm of logic and reason you would have to conclude #2 was correct because
1. Millions (maybe billions) of Kids (Violent and nonviolent) play video games.
2. Millions (maybe billions) of Kids that play video games are NOT made violent and are NOT shooting up thier schools.
RA7
-
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - RWE
As for your logic, surely you are just trolling.
As a student in high school, this viewpoint really disturbs me.
I'm quite capable of taking care of myself, and my parents [I think] did a decent job of raising me.
It's not a teacher's responsibility, or right, to make an attempt to mould me in their own way.
Public school's primary function is education, let's not forget that.
Computer games dont change how people behave! If they did, all the people who played PacMan when they were young would now be running round in darkened rooms, listening to repetetive electronic music and munching pills!!
Oh dear...
Uhh... You should rethink a few things man...
Blaming guns for the actions of people is just as stupid and ridiculous as blaming video games. Both video games and guns are inanimate objects and thus can not be blamed for anything. People ultimately are responsible for their actions, whether they be good, bad, indifferent... whether they use a gun, a fork, a knife, a car, a pipe bomb, a chainsaw, or any other inanimate object that could be used to cause someone harm.
Think about the logistics of blaming inanimate objects for human actions. In the meantime, I'll be as responsible with my guns as you are with your chainsaw.
-Quin
This will probably get me the baseball bat treatment, but:
Maybe the parents should have encouraged their slain children to play MORE video games, so they would have had the skills and reflexes to dodge out of the line of fire...
isn't she suppose to drink the coffee, not spill it in her lap? :)
Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right-- But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better
I am so sick and tired of everybody whining about being a victim. The only people responsible for Columbine were the two shooters who are now dead. Grieve and get the hell over it! But no, we have ot drag it out ruin as many lives as possible, and provide lawers with millions in fees. Sure - some idiot KNOWs the brakes on a dump truck are defective but sends it out on the road cause he's lazy - that's liable. BUt suing someone because they SHOULD have known something was going to happen is a joke. I'm a parent - you think you know all that your kids do, but you don't and never will!
Columbine was terrible - but it is swinging the lawsuit pendalum even further.
--
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
I'm trying to understand how this works. Gaming companies are profiting from making games which encourage violence. What then makes it any better for these people to sue because of the same violence for the same profit. Seems to me the side sending in their lawyers are far more directly trying to profit from the tragedy of what happened.
Parents of children who overdosed at raves can sue Pac-Man for it's influence - eating lots of pills, listening to repetitive music, and wearing happy clothing.
I have yet to discover the real reason why farts linger longer in an office environment
These Columbine parents are marching off to "Blame Canada!" when they should be looking in the mirror... The blame rests with the parents who created those two animals, AND with the community that allowed a school like that to exist off their taxes...
For one thing, they sent their kids off to a Government school. That in and of itself it child abuse to me.
Not only that, but the Columbine administration was irresponsible enough to allow two kids the unsupervised OPPORTUNITY to plant bombs all OVER the campus! That is extreme negligence, but typical.
Certainly the ones MOST to blame are the parents of the two murderers. They were "shocked" that their kids did such a thing... I'm sure they WERE shocked, as they probably didn't spend even 2 hours a week with them.
I doubt they knew ANYTHING about the monsters they raised. The seem to me to have been the type of parents who put having the second BMW and "we have lives too, not just children" above the ULTIMATE responsibility in society: raising YOUR children.
And now, just like the song "Blame Canada!" from the South Park movie, the parents are marching off to blame anyone but themselves. And I have a feeling that the courts (which are political these days) will humor them. After all, no politician ever got re-elected (or no Federal Judge ever got greased on the corporate lecture circuit) by proclaiming that the parents they represent are lousy.
The fact is, the Baby Boomers were lousy parents, and Gen X is doing an even worse job. They are ducking out of the reposnibility to raise the children THEY CREATED into responsible citizens. They are leaving their kids to be raised by TV, movies, thug rap, video games, the Internet and are not at ALL shy about proclaiming that the rights of OTHERS be infringed to censor said babysitters FOR them. Why? Because THEY can't be bothered to...
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
"While you do certainly make a point on cigarettes, I still hold my position that cigarette lawsuits had more to do with lawyers' wallets than it did with smokers' health"
Money is ALL it had to do with. A greedy government (which nets in tax revenue over THREE TIMES what a tobacco company does in profit on a pack of cigarettes) and greedy lawyers (the same, since the government IS lawyers) exploited tobacco users (who are paying for ALL of it, thus victimizing the victims) to line their pockets.
In all that mess, NOT ONE GOVERNMENT LAWYER tried to get this "deadly" product banned. Why, that can't happen, the government is too addicted to tobacco taxes!
This suit would be much the same thing... They won't try to get violent video games banned (after all there is that inconvienient first amendment), they just want the cash.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
I didn't find anything funny about what this guy is saying. He's absolutely right. Not that I'm against the creation of violent video games, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let my kids play a game like Quake until I feel like they're old enough to understand that it's just a game.
What position are you taking on this then?
I've seen a lot of police show and everyone knows that they portray a image of cops that they can kill and what not when ever they want; and get away with it.
Beings that here in Cincinnati, Ohio we've had some violence because of an unfounded police shooting - I think we should sue NYPD Blue and the like for making our streets unsafe.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Well, if you were going up against someone in a fight, who would you rather take on? A guy with a lot of guns, or some pasty-faced wimp who sits in a room programming a computer all day?
Meanwhile, the world turns foolishly on and ants tickle his butt.
So, do they have the filing online? I'd be really interested to see which companies are named in the class-action... If anybody knows where this info is, please post a URL. -crp
/dev/null
All of us who game should go to work wtith a giant Quake symbol on to warn our co-workers that at any second we might become afraid of standing next to a barrell.
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
Obvious Suits
id for creating Doom
publishing companies for distributing it
Wal-Mart for selling it (you know they're evil)
Suits they forgot
the freshman who created our school's map (if you didn't have one, you still thought about it)
my brothers and I for playing it
Dell computer for selling us our terrorist training equipment
Finally, the electric company...
without their non-restricted, non-supervised, constant flow of electrons, we could never have trained on our computer, influenced others to play violent games, grow the Doom and Quake empires, force the Columbine shooters to join, plot their strategy, put guns in their hands, and push them out the door.
the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids.
The Sanders' suit... claims that if not for violent games and other media images - in particular, a school massacre scene from the movie "The Basketball Diaries" - the rampage by Harris and Klebold wouldn't have happened.
This type of horrific violence can only be achieved through a combination of this violent game and this violent movie. I beg of you, if you have seen this movie, do not play the game. Likewise, if you have played Doom, I urge you to stay far away from this movie.
1. The video game industry has been growing steadily since the mid-80s.
2. Today, according to a recent U.S. New and World Report article, school violence is the lowest it has been since 1966.
I hope I have made obvious the connection between video games and the annihilation of civilization as we know it.
These parents should not look to video games to blame, but the school and the parents of the two kids. But, then again, they are just like any other American, willing to blame just about everyone.
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
You'll never see a lawsuit against crappy parents. Why? Because crappy parents have less deep pockets than the game and media companies. I still think parents don't beat their children enough these days. To quote Dennis Leary: "My parents used to beat the living s*it out of me and i'm looking forward to beating the s*it out of my kids, aren't you?" -ted
Amen, halleluia, and shalom my brother!
"I honestly believe (despite my trollish name) that gaming companies should take some responsibility in their "creations". I know I witnessed a dear personal friend become nearly possessed after playing titles like "Doom" and "Wolfenstein". I was afraid he might kill me so I had to call the law enforcement. "
No offense, but if your friend became that wrapped up in it, then he should have been put in the loony bin in a straight jacket a long time ago, or at least seek the help of a shrink - He has sever mental problems that need to be addressed. It could have been anything that set him off, it just happened to be games.
My, aren't we intelligent today?
lol
It's just not your day is it? Maybe *you* should lay off the video games, seeing as how you are at that tender, impressionable age of twelve.
And any idiot can see thay are attacking one small, ambiguous component of this complicated tangle of culpability simply because they gots the money. The families pushing these lawsuits should be ashamed of themselves for their naked attempt to capitalize on a personal tragedy.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
In school, I remember reading this terribly bloody book and wondering why parents wouldn't stop it. It was full of treachery and death, and gave me nightmares for weeks. Maybe you've heard of it, it's called "King Lear."
Jesus Christ, you see worse violence in any hallway in any school in america than you do in your average FPS -- in fact, FPS games (in part because of graphic gibbing and horrible deaths) are much less realistic. Nobody thinks that the goofy characters from Quake 3 are real...and no player (no matter how hard they get smacked) I've ever played with, from ages 8 to 30, has ever taken violent steps against somebody they played. In fact, I've seen more friendly faces and handshakes after a good and bloody round of CtF than I have after any of the "cultural awareness" or "it's okay to be different" rallies I've been to.
It's easy to say "violent images make a child violent," in a clockwork orange solution to the problem at hand. But it isn't the truth -- violent images alone are no different from non-violent images. A kid who gets worked up over a round of Quake is a kid who would get worked up over a round of touch football, and it has little if nothing to do with the media at hand. Sure, violence desensitizes people, but in a good way: it dillutes the illusory cloud of invulnerability that surrounds a teenager's perception.
This is a whole lot of scapegoating and reactivity -- no reason has gone into the arguments that violent video games cause violence. If anything in media causes violence, it's not the hideous but obviously fake images from video games -- it's the real looking but totally fake actions of professional wrestling. Now, I know that you wrestling losers are going to protest, but come on -- how many of you can honestly say you've never thrown a hold on somebody emulating what you've seen on TV? I used to dread Fridays in middle school, when kids would come in, fresh from Thursday's wrestling matches and ready to try them on anybody who won't fight back. Conceptually speaking, the anarchistic human violence of pro wrestling will always be more dangerous than computer violence. After all, Quake without the killing is just Laser Arena, and Laser Arena is just 3d tag or 3d hockey. Wrestling without the stories (and no, the weak stories and character setups do not and should not justify the violence they portray -- having another man kiss yout skanky show wife shouldn't give you the right to hit him over the back with a chair) is thoughtless mayhem, and if they hadn't gone through years of training to learn how to get hit with chairs and thrown around we'd see a bunch of dead and hurt men after Smackdown.
These anti-violence naysayers want to get into the violence encouraged in other sports, more legitimate ones like football or hockey, because that doesn't make any sense...there are millions of idiots in this country who love to wag fingers at the gaming industry but shy away the second you accuse their precious bloodsports of any wrongdoing. "They encourage teamwork"...right...like the teams of lacrosse idiots who used to beat us across the back with their titanium sticks in gym back in high school because we would talk about discordianism or particle physics. I say that CTF encourages teamwork...football encourages muscles over thought, and a type of follow-the-leader conformity essential to a sport that relies on plays. Football players are, essentially, robots -- they follow orders, run up against the other side, and are expected to work on a strictly stimulus-response reaction sceme. And I think this is the reason these pundits are up in arms -- football teaches violence while at the same time it purports to teach discipline (though those who support this have never dealt with these sports heroes outside of the arena). Video games, especially violent FPS style games, teach nothing that is apparent to the pundits. But it's apparent to the gamers -- we learn problems solving, how to scheme and how to assess our opponents because the field in an FPS is level -- nobody is stronger than anybody else. And when the level is upset, FPS players have ways of levelling it again -- team up against the guy with the armor or the guy with the tank. FPS games teach thought in ways that no outside activity can, and what these pundits need to understand is that there is more than one way to teach it.
My final thought is this: when a child who has been taunted incessantly kills his taunters, why do we blame video games and his parents? Why do we place no blame at all on the deceased, who hurt the child so much that the child saw no recourse but to strike back with extreme force? The media has a position that the victim shouldn't be blamed unless they match a certain pattern of vileness(husband of a battered wife, a rapist father, a blackmailer). Well, what could be more vile than verbally attacking an adolescent? It's the most fragile time of life, and to put someone down during this period when they're so unsure of themselves is probably the most damaging thing you can do to them psychologically. Let's contrast here...surely, the blame of any incident should be on the catalyst of the incident as well as the reactive entity. Don't blame the powderkeg and let the spark go untainted.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Just what parents who don't raise their kids right do. Point the fingers elsewhere to cast blame, yet they'll deny that they are likely to be the cause of the problem.
- profits.com
Maybe I should sue record companies for making me think violent thoughts. Shit I could just go out shoot a few people, then my family could have a class action lawsuit against record companies, television companies, movie companies, newspapers, gun companies, bullet companies, clothing companies for creating the camoflauge I used.
I think i'll register www.lets-capitalize-on-a-tragedy-and-sue-for-mega
Encryption Saves the Day
360 degrees of Karma
No shit sherlock its still the same thesis... Same rules apply
360 degrees of Karma
This lawsuit is frivolous. There is enough said about it above.
I feel for the victim's parents, but do they really think it's the fault of the video companies. What frightens me most is that, the parents in my beloved country (USA) do not like to take responsibility for their children. It is a shame that morality (of any sorts) is not taught at home. If it is being taught, then I think most parents are not doing to good of a job.
I watch yesterday, as 2 kids (about 7 years old) fought over a ball. Where, at the end, it came to blows. I mumbled to myself "good job in raising a kid", and then I proceeded to laugh. My daughter asked (as only a 4 year old can) me why. I said, "Violence leads to someone getting hurt". And explained to her what I felt is right and wrong. Later on she was playing, and one of the 2 kids got into my daughters face, I quickly looked to see her reactions. A look of fear and courage crossed her face. I walked over to the father of the kid. Made mentioned of the situation, he ignored my comment. At that point my daughter put the ball down, walked over to me and said my quote above. I laughed and then she copied my laughed. And as we were laughing together I realized that my daughter just shamed the guy. Which made me laugh louder.
Later on my daughter was playing again when the same kid tried to take her shovel. I again mentioned it to the father. He looked at me and said, "Do you got a problem?", I told him to watch his child and see what was going on. The kid took her shovel. My daughter stood up, walked over to me, and said in tears what had happened. Did the father do anything, No. I told my daughter to go over there and get her shovel back. She went back and with a rage of hell started to yell at the kid, every parent in the playground noticed, that is when he yelled at his son to give back the shovel.
I guess my point is that my daughter had to shame them into submission. Why couldn't the father of the boy be more responsible? Yes I am protective. That?s something I'm ok with. I'm also willing to teach my child what is right and wrong.
When parents start to take blame, then the USA will be on the right track again.
ONEPOINT
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In my opinion, this has about to do with video games as the cigarette lawsuits had to due with cigarettes.
Good idea, wrong example.
People that smoke can't stop it. Can't help it. They are sick, physicaly sick, like somebody having a cold or a virus.
The adictive nature of cigarettes is documented more than enough, recognized as a sickness by the UN's World Health Organization and no respected physician will say that this is due to the "lack of will" of the patient....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
First of all, my condolences (sp?) go out to the friends & family of the Columbine shootings (or any other shootings of the kind, for that matter), but they have to realize that games are not to blame for the actions of these kids.
I don't think we can blame one specific impetus for these actions, but the biggest one that I see is a complete lack of parenting. I remember a news story after the Columbine shootings, when they were talking about the bombs the shooters had set, which thankfully didn't go off. The neighbors had called the police and filed a noise complaint (I think -- I know there was a lot of noise coming from the garage) because they heard breaking glass and stuff in one of the kids' garages the weekend before. I think a simple, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" might have gone a long way towards preventing this. Even the most neglecting parent would thing something was strange about the answer, "Nothing, just making shrapnel."
These guys were unstable in the first place, and if they had liked Lawrence Welk (shudder) instead of FPSes, someone would have been trying to outlaw Lawrence Welk. If you put a bottle of pure water in the freezer, you can get it a few degrees below zero, without freezing. If you then insert any foreign object into said bottle, you can watch the entire body of water crystallize. That's what I think the psyches in question were like. They were just waiting for something to start crystallizing, and they would have found something at some point, whether Doom existed or not.
There will always be unstable people in society. High School's a bitch for a lot of people, but it helps a lot to have parents who actually care what you're doing. I got picked on in High School, and my father had a rifle of my Grandfather's under his bed. The reason I never shot half of my classmates isn't because I thought about killing them, and decided violence isn't the answer... I just never thought of it, and if I had, I'd bet my left nut that my parents would have intervened.
The only thing that FPSes could possibly have taught the shooters is to conserve ammo, and such knowledge isn't a problem if the thought of killing your classmates never even crosses your mind.
I realize this is sort of rambling, but the issue has been out there for so long that all my thoughts become jumbled. The Executive Summary is this: Bad parents will always look for some outside reason for their children's behavior. Good parents will look at themselves, even when it's not their fault. There will always be people who have these kind of tendencies; it's the job of their friends and family to recognize these tendencies, and stop them. FPSes, Marilyn Manson, Sex on TV, and Dungeons and Dragons will not make your child kill half of his class. You will. We shouldn't outlaw games with violent content until somebody gets killed headbutting trains, and thought it would be ok, because (s)he thought "IDDQD" before stepping on the track.
Actually, I'd say that last part is a perfect example of thinning the herd, and should probably be encouraged.
I've just heard that violent behavior is one of the side effects to be expected in a significant percentage of those being treated with Ritalin; students today are widely dosed by the schools with Ritalin for alleged "attention deficit disorder".
1. You can spend 17 years letting "your little mistake" turn into a disaffected, cold-blooded maniac killer (hint: this doesn't require video games); or,
2. You can pop your head in his room for five minutes a month and say "Whatcha up to, sport? You're not jacking off? Too bad. That's all I had when I was a kid. Nope. Not even an Atari. What're you playing? 'Nazi Zombie Quake-Engine Columbine Guns Of Doom'? Cool. Look at the blood. Hey! Was that an eyeball? You know this is just a game, right? No biggie. Just annealing your spin-glass a little. Ciao, big guy." Then you can go back to your Bud and your fishin' show and grinding your teeth over the way the shop-lead gets on your ass about losing tools in peoples' oilpans.
The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And being embarassed in front of your own sprog is nothing compared to explaining his history-making crime to the world.
--Blair
--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
It's quite sad that this left-wing let's-blame-everybody-else attitude has engulfed our nation. The plaintiffs are either greedy or they are so ignorant and childish that they are searching for a scapegoat so they can think to themselves as they go to bed, "Golly, I've made a difference in the world! What a good person am I!" However, nothing will have been accomplished, except massacring liberty for no guarantee of safety. Ben Franklin put it best: "They that can sacrifice essential liberty in order to gain temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Isn't there a higher risk of a postal worker going "postal"?
Maybe it's the uniforms that they wear.
I didn't do it, and if I did, you can't prove it. Bart Simpson
They can only sue the shit of those parents, and ruin their already fractured lives once. Face it, there is not enough money in the world to bring all those kids back. The only option they have it to grasp at straws and litigate. The parents will lose if it goes to trial (it won't go that far) I think that this new slew of litigation is part of the parents collective grieving process. What they should do instead of suing everyone and anyone with money, is to become activists for renewed parenting, gun control, or anything that they can do that would allow them to work for the memory of the lost kids. Anything genuine can bring them closure, but sitting around and having your lawyer do it, sure as hell ain't going to help you get over your loss.
what? what I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?
On a more serious note, ever wonder just how many generations will have to repeat this idiotic cycle before people will finally clue in? Today it's Columbine. In the 80's it was heavy metal. In the 50's it was the evil comic books. I'm not exactly a history major, but it seems to me that every generation spouts the same nonsense:
Kids today are messed up, and it's all the fault of ***insert media item parents never had when they were children*** !!!
In fact, didn't someone use this exact same line about 2000+ years ago?
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Really? What did you do when you got teased in school? My experience wasn't in high school, but grade school. In a so-called "Progressive", liberal private school, no less. I was raised by my parents to be a good little yes-man, to forgive my tormentors because they must have really low self-esteem to be such assholes, and to try to "laugh it off."
It was all a pile of bullshit. Had I been raised with less attentive parents who had guns around, I could easily have snapped and tried killing them... I sure fantasized about it (and certainly about beating them up) a lot. There was a point in jr. high where I started trying to fight everyone, and that didn't work because I was an underdeveloped wuss in addition to being a dweeby loser who wore hand-me down bellbottoms and had poor personal hygiene. Everyone who's been really abused in school knows that it's never "all in fun". "Making fun" is the wrong phrase; it's "Verbal/emotional/physical abuse", and it's perceived of as "normal" and kids "just being kids". And that's all fine, until someone puts an eye out.
You can't tell me for one second that Klebold and Harris deserve 100% of the blame. Obviously they crossed the line, but sucking down years of abuse at the hands of callous and uncaring people (jocks or otherwise) will turn anyone into a bitter, angry, and confused animal. I don't believe the kids they killed deserved to die, but I think it's disgusting how that community continues to scapegoat Doom and Marylin Manson and others, wave their little crosses around and look to Gawd for inspiration in these troubled times... and NO ONE will address the major factors: that their parents were utterly negligent, and that the Lord of the Flies style society that forms in EVERY school in this COUNTRY created two people who were wired just right to snap.
Parental intattention created the opportunity in Klebold and Harris, and years of brutalization created the motivation. subtract either, and chances are that the Columbine massacre doesn't happen. Why, then, is it so hard for these people to see past their own noses? They hide behind Christianity and absolutely refuse to look for the root of the problem. And they call Klebold and Harris PSYCHOPATHS because that's the easiest thing to do. Every reaction to this tragedy has been the authorities taking the easy path. You all read it in the "Hellmouth" series. It's all bullshit. Until someone prominent steps out and says "where were the parents? And where were the teachers? Why is this school functioning like a prison?", the authorities will keep on making the same mistakes. And labeling Klebold and Harris as PSYCHOPATHS because they couldn't take being fucked with for another year is stupid, narrow-minded and hateful.
The hooligans are loose! The hooligans are loose! What if they become ruffians? -- Bill Hicks
Even the scene in question was a hyperbolic over-exaggeration of what Carroll wrote.
The hooligans are loose! The hooligans are loose! What if they become ruffians? -- Bill Hicks
Dale Todd, Evan's father, said he hooked up with Thompson through research he did on violent video games. He even obtained a copy of "Doom" and played it himself. He was appalled.
[...]
"We need to wake up," Todd said.
So, he is watching this fairly brutal footage of dead soldiers from the war (missing body parts, fairly un-recognizable body masses, lots of black-n-white blood) and causually questions how much those actors are getting paid. From his prior experience to media, he just figured it was all fake. This of course was the time that we all helped him understand the critical distinction that that footage was REAL (as opposed to blaming PBS for showing such horrific footage). They weren't actors, and they weren't coming back to life. Pretty sobbering for him at the time, I remember him crying for quite awhile.
My point here is, we took that time to help him understand the distinctions between real and fantasy. And encouraged him to always ask for clarification when confused in the future. You provide that personal attention and care to your children/siblings and they will be better for it.
He has since gone through a multitude of violent gaming sprees on his computer and knows that none of that need be expressed by himself in the real world. He's been picked on, scorned by bullies, etc. through high school, but knew that the answer was not to retaliate in a violent manner as others have recently.
Whether or not the shooters at Columbine ever truly learned this distinction is a moot point now. We can never truly know. But I can only think that this extra attention can only be beneficial to your children in the long run.
A non-productive mind is with absolutely zero balance.
"And on Friday, the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids."
Um...Carmack has no control over the sale of his games. He designs parts (like the engine), and the rest comes together. He has NOTHING to do with sales, and this person is not only implying that he is, but that HE (as in personally) sells these "adult" games to kids.
Hell, want to pick a fight with someone over this, at least target that asshole Manager at my local EB...
Next they'll be sueing the trenchcoat manufacturers too, instead of the parents of the wackos like they should be.
Why don't we make the one and only Columbine lawsuit that will resolve everything. Rather than blame everything Klebold and Harris did in their spare time, why don't we sue their parents, teachers, and guidance counselors for not noticing that the kids needed help. That should solve everything.
He claims that the most violent images he encounters are in books.
According to this lawsuit he should be screwed, but he is an honor student who is kind and gentle. How can this be?
The thing is that I know that there are more like him. Their existence disproves the premise of this case.
Should we keep all of our children in a glass case? Should we totally isolate them from reality?
It isn't possible to pinpoint what happens when someone snaps and trys to take people with them. It could range from incessant bullying to "I got shit on my fingers while wiping my ass" (sue toilet tissue manufacturers to make a wider product).
Unfortunately the reality in Columbine is that the teachers who did nothing about bullying, or took no notice of desperate behaviour in their students may be more responsible than anything else. Maybe someone should countersue these teacher's parents for failure to stop what should have been more obvious.
The U.S. desperately needs a law that would make plaintiffs in a lawsuit responsible for court and defense costs if they lose.
(810) is a metro Detroit area code. Unless her husband had one hell of a commute to Colorado or she moved, that's just a random number. Besides, even if that is her real phone number, why flood her with calls? Do you really think what we have to say defending the FPS genre will make any difference? Besides, grieving family members sometimes have a need to do *something*, anything to try and stop a death like that from happening again. This reminds me of the mother who sued the creators of South Park and Comedy Central after her child committed suicide, saying Kenny's deaths made him think he would come back to life. The suit was absurd and was eventually dismissed (as I hope this one will be...the least of its effects if they win will be a horrid precedent), but the mother's email address was posted on a South Park fansite and she recieved a lot of irate (and quite a few intelligent, well thought out) replies. Her response was that she needed to do something to kind of "avenge" the death of her child. She did it in a misguided way (IMO she and everyone else would have been better served if she had put her efforts into getting childhood depression recognized), but she felt she needed to do something. I think this case is being brought to court for many of the same reasons.
-----
Bow before my sig, for it is good.
Does this mean that I can sue ID from what I learned from Doom?
I once broke my arm, and I tried to run over a first aid kit to heal it, but nothing happened. I never did regain full control of that arm...
Thank you, Doom.
Limiting the freedom of everyone to view what they desire on TV/in the press/in books/on the net (they all are the same vehicle -- some better tuned for bandwidth than others) is a slippery slope. If you hope to limit the ability for everyone to see everything then you are describing a country without freedom.
Good taste should dictate in an open market that their are "limits" to what will be viewed (works for TV/Radio/Print because their is a cost in publishing works). Thus for the traditional media it can be argued that the public will set their own limits. Obviously the taste of John Q. Public varies with the times (when I was a youngster the Dukes of Hazards was hot... people claimed that it would lead to the moral downfall of the planet... but shortly after that shows moved more main-stream in dressing their characters/exposure - i.e.: the pendelum swung back).
The net is a bit bigger of an issue here (there are tasteless sights galore... and little or no cost to publish). Regardless the local authority (i.e.: parents of minors) have the RESPONSIBILITY to make sure their dependants are viewing appropriate material and thus should be held responsible.
If you consistently choose to allow your children to watch sex and violence then you should be held responsible as your child will be (they do not get an automatic excuse).
I'm sick of all the whiners claiming that we should shut down the media because it is corrupting their children. It's time to take responsibility and place it where it belongs. Codeswallop has a remote control and can restrict access to any media Codeswallop needs to for Codeswallops dependants. Codeswallop has no right to attempt to restrict the media for everyone else.
End of rant.
(NOTE: I haven't done all the research, but I'm sure these are close):
Number of people killed at Columbine: 12
Avg life span: 72 years or 26,280 days
Avg age of Columbine victim: 17 years or 6205 days
Days of life ruined from Columbine: 240,900
Amount sued for: $5,000,000,000
One day of a person's life is worth: $20,755
Number of people who lost their jobs due to lame dot-com business plans (aka "Market Conditions"): 185,000
Average time out of work: 55 days
Average severance: 7 days
Percentage of day ruined while out of work: 25%
Number of days ruined from dot-coms: 2,220,000
Seems to me that:
1) dot-coms did more damage than Columbine
2) Someone should start a class action suit against the guys that thought up, the VCs who funded and the CEOs who took the high salaries of dead dot-coms for about $50,000,000,000.
The sad thing is, my idea has more validity than the idea of suing gaming companies. To some extent and arguement could made that VCs/CEOs/etc are to blame for ruining many peoples lives.
--
He had come like a thief in the night,
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Ok, this is obvious, but I need to vent my frustrations. Is it just me or can anyone else even BELEIVE this lawsuit even exists?!?! *checks watch* is it somehow April 1st again?
Ok, they shouldn't have shot all that people, I mean, shooting people is a bad thing, they might be condened to death, but, why did he shoot?
I don't think that they shoot them only because they are crazy, they might be freaks, as their school "friends(?)", but I don't think they are crazy.
Society in High Schools are tremendous unfair, There are plenty of us (so called geeks?) that knows it. If you aren't like then, you're out, you're a freak, you're a nerd... They just doesn't want to know who you are, you are just who they think you are, and if you don't act as they aspect you are wrong (again).
I am very proud to say that I participate a society (/. - internet) that worth everybody that knows or want to know, no matter who you are or who you were. There's always another chance, there's always place to everybody who shows the truth about him/herself. Would the world be a nicer place if real society were this way?
IMHO the real guilty is the society, and the way it treat people that are different, people who think different, many times people who is ahead his time.
Why don't we think about this, rather than sue everybody that seems different for us? Fuck these dam lawyers!!! Fuck these dam families, why don't they worry about educating their kids in a non-prejudice way? I'm not talking about black/white, I'm talking about accept the different, learn that one day you might be in a place where you are different, and then you'll want to be well treated!
I'm not black, I am a caucasian latin, living in Brazil, no prejudic at all agains me in Brazil.
thanks for your attention.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
This pathetic act shows that the families of the slain teachers are more interested in profiting from the deaths rather than healing. Why? They're reopening old wounds. They're relentlessly milking the situation. They're searching for a scapegoat.
How can these people claim that they're moral in the face of the 'evil game companies' when they're teaching so many young minds involved in the situation that finding ways to profit from tragedy are top priority?
To the families doing the suing:
You fools. Don't you realize that two very, very frustrated and angry young children murdered your loved ones? You should not place blame on innocents for the past deeds of the guilty and now dead. Neither computer games nor goth music are responsible for this. The issue is far more complex. With this ridiculously selfish act, you're showing where some of the real problems in American society truly lie.
Why bother.
Yes, movie makers produce much more realistic violence, but they do not make killers. Do you think Spielberg should be sued for the realistic violence in Schindler's List? Saving Private Ryan? I think not.
Everyone who participates in entertainment containing violent content knows that it's an illusion. They know it's not real. However, if they choose to act upon this, there were problems there to begin with. Either they have a mental disability in comprehending or they have deep seated emotional problems. One way or the other, the entertainment wasn't the catalyst.
When will people understand this?
Why bother.
What do they get for this kind of behavior? More and more encouragement from the school. A free ride. Constant recognition for being basketball players. Just two days ago, an alumnis association bought ALL of them DVD players as gifts. The list goes on.
We can see this in almost every school, to varying degrees of intensity. What's the outcome? Violent, immature, stupid people going around doing whatever they want to whoever and whatever they choose entirely without consequence - especially when it comes to taunting. This causes Columbines.
Why bother.
I seem to recall something about pipe bombs... Sue the manufacturer of those pipes for making them so easy to turn into bombs!!!! Idiots...
Many of the more violent video games and cartoons come from Japan, and the Japanese don't have the school violence problems that we in America do. So where's the link? - JT
WTF? I submitted to /. the exact same story, linked to the exact same article with almost the same summary a few days ago.
There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't
Parents love to blame everything else. Theoretically there could be some blame if the games/media re marketed towards kids. However: My cousin has two wonderfully cute and intelligent little girls (ages 4 and 5). She has already gotten them to shy away from anything related to violence or sex. They are obviously too young for either. How has she done this you may ask? She spends a lot of time with them. Their Dad does as well. The kids get punished when they does something bad. They do not get spanked and taught that violence is a solution. They get things taken away and/or are not allowed to do things.
Whilst reading this article, I came across a very strange paradox.
Coming from Atlanta, GA, there is a great deal of opposition towards the sale of violent video games, i.e., WalMart won't even touch them down here (but has rows of sniper rifles, shotguns, semi-automatics, and pistols in the "hunting" section). The general consensus is that violence in the media and violence in games is corrupting today's youth.
However, on the same note, these lobbyists are the same that glorify war as a means to "unify" the populace. I wonder, which is more damaging... Cartoon violence in corridor shooters, or the ROTC programs that educate children on the use and aquisition of firearms and other means of combat? Capture the Flag in Quake or UT, or the military training exercises that kill several hundred participants a year?
To be blunt, how does one oppose the exaggerated gore in games and yet support the utterly senseless brutality of true military conflict?
Soylent pink is made from easter bunnies.
-Matt
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
This is getting out of control now. Have we truly become "The United States of the Offended" as one radio man in my area says. Society is in a sad shape indeed if things of this nature go through. What happened to just plain common sense? Put the blame where it lies. Morals and values are taught in the home, not at school, not at the arcade, not anywhere other than the home. This is all truly getting out of control!!!
As Chris Rock said, "WHAT ABOUT THE PARENTS? THE PARENTS SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR SOME OF THIS SHIT!" These parents' need to stop blaming everyone but themselves for what their kids do. It's not the media's fault that their kids are so fucked up they don't know the difference of right and wrong! It's not the media's responsibility to raise these kids properly. If the parents' spent a little more time talking to their kids about their life and teach them to deal with life's difficulties, maybe these kids wouldn't pull a Columbine! Shit! I play the games they played. I listen to the music they listened to. I had a rough childhood. But did I go around shooting kids with my dad's gun? No! WHY? Because I knew better. Because my parents taught me how to deal with life. Before DOOM they blamed D&D for their kids hacking each other in the sewers! Sure playing these games and listening these music didn't help the situation, but it isn't their fault that these parents don't know how to raise they're kids. I know the lawsuit is being brought on by the family of the victims and not the parents of the killers. I understand it makes them feel better to blame people besides the killers' parents. It's because they'd like to think that something besides parents have caused this. That way even though they themselves may be bad parents their kids won't become killers as long as they keep them from the "evil" media. If you have to blame others besides the parents, blame society. Blame the society that has raised these parents. The society that makes these parents too busy to properly raise their kids. The society in which kids feel alienated by those that are popular. Blame your kids that made them feel like kids. Blame your kids that made them feel like killing to make a point. And then blame your role in this society. Stop wasting your time trying to purify the media. It would be more worth while to take that time and talk to your kids.
I think it was in 1979 when a 16yr old girl got a rifle for her birthday and decided to sit in her OWN HOME and pick off 11 people at a school across the street. She only killed two. Now I might be wrong on the dates, I'd have to look it up, but the point remains: She did not play Doom before killing people. She did it on her own. As did other school shooters in recent years.
I mean.. really, had those guys at Columbine been any GOOD at Doom, they would have racked up more frags.
Even before science back up the claims of harm from smoking, it was a common fact that smoking was not good for you.
Common, except for the tobacco companies, who frequently trotted out their own experts to point out there was no proof that smoking caused $DISEASE. When it could be shown that the officers of the company knew that this was false, they became liable.
If Miller, Coors or Budweiser ran an ad saying "Have an extra beer before you drive home. There's no proof it'll make you crash" they'd be similarly liable.
--
Yes, the nick is flamebait
Violent video games hardly play any role at all in these kinds of things. It's the infamous third parent.. TV. It's shows that make people stupid and force them into living other people's psuedo-real lives while their minds are eaten alive by advertisers. If they really want to sue anybody (and apparently they do, so I guess that their childrens' lives are worth 7 figures or so) they should sue the people who produce shows like Survivor, Cops, or any number of the unbelievably mind numbing shitcoms that infest the airwaves. They also might want to sue the companies that produce behavior modifiying drugs, which most of the school shooters to date have been on. Those stupid pills are like a cheap way out for parents who don't want to deal with kids who are acting their age. It's cowardice I say... The fear of tackling an issue which is fuzzier than "the violent video game industry" has driven these parents to completely miss the underlying reasons behind their losses, and I say it's pathetic and cowardly. The shouldn't be suing anyone, they should be getting on with their lives...
Columbine was terrible.
But in the media hype and drama of the situation, we lose sight of the thousands of children that die each day from *preventable* dehydration and starvation.
Perhaps if they win this lawsuit, they could donate their ill-gotten gains to saving even just a few of these children that never even had a chance.
unless, of course, it *is* just about the money.
RC
family sues founding fathers over right to bear arms.
Perhaps the gaming industry should now sue the media and the party (parties?) trying to sue them over Columbine for Defamation of Characer, just to see how far we can actually push the envelope of stupid bullshit.
Build boards not bombs
A really awful part of all this is the way the media has dealt with it. They've found a story/situation that people will pay attention to, so they cover it like crazy, etching it into everyone's brain. It was a bad thing to happen, but it's done now. IMO the constant coverage of this can only lead to bad things. For example: Some kid who's already near the breaking point sees footage of Columbine or one of the other school shootings, and sees that people he/she identifies with have just found a way to solve the situation: kill everybody. A misguided lightbulb appears over the kid's head. "I'm gonna get some guns & explosives! That'll solve the problem, just like in Columbine!" The fact that no-one is paying attention to this kid as it is (i.e. lazy, clueless parents who could've prevented the situation by talking with the developing human being they are supposedly responsible for)means that the kid has that much more opportunity/reason to go through with it. This suit against the video-game industry just trivializes the situation and makes it that much more unbeleivable. Stupid, stupid people. I have one simple statement for all the people who would rather sue unrelated companies in a cash-grab attempt than take responsibility for their own lousy parenting: World War One and Two both happened long before TV and Video Games were a part of our culture, and how many World Wars (excluding the U.S. government flexing it's military muscles and getting in nuclear pissing contests with smaller nations) have there been since the introduction of TV and Video games? The only other thing I feel that is left to be questioned is the psychotic notion that every American needs at least one gun... I think that covers at least my 2 cents, probably a couple more pennies too.
Build boards not bombs
"Ignorant people shouldn't breed."
Build boards not bombs
Isn't this discussion supposed to be about how some idiot parents are sueing the gaming industry over nonsense, not the temperature of coffe?
Until high schools stop patting jocks on the back for beating up the geeks or weird kids, a lot more Columbine's will happen. The games have nothing to do with it, its the social structure of our high schools. I mean, look at college, kids are older and have access to much more...but you can, if you want, go through college, all 4 or 5 years without interacting with ANYONE, why would you, but you could.
"...two other families sent strong messages to the violence-filled media that they say made Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold more willing and efficient killers."
I can't seem to find a gun that I can point and click to shoot with, and where do you buy BFG's?
Let's try to be realistic, maybe people DO infact become de-sensitized (I think they are, to a limited degree); but desnsitization DOESN'T mean "willing" and FPS games (even the really good ones like UT or Quake (1-3) or Doom) don't help your aim, nor does learning how to shoot a mini-gun or BFG or Rail gun in an FSP make you a more "efficient" killer!
I am not saying I "condone" killing at school, I don't! Unfortunately, you push and push and push a child, any child, and they react. It IS unfortunate that these kids reacted that way. It is as tragic as those children whom are bullied to the point where they feel suicide is the "only way out".(That's why the 7-17 suicide rate is higher than the entire medical profession's suicide rate.
Well, it would seem that the pro-gun prediction has come true: the impulse to disarm the people stands side by side with the impulse to silence the people. Put another way: the 2nd Amendment is the support mechanism for all the others. Maybe you thought that, when the 2nd Amendment was pissed on, the stuff would somehow not run off on the 1st Amendment? Hm. Of course, I'm not indicting the parents so much as I'm indicting the handlers -- the lawyers and the leftist politicians (here in Colorado especially). They don't care what they piss on, so long as the checks keep coming in, and they hold a little more control when it's all over.
Why can't these people see that it's not the friggin' games? I play Half-Life, TFC, and Rogue Spear regularly, but I don't want to take any people out at my school. (I admit, I'm a junior in HS) However, these kids enjoyed Doom 2. This is a game that has an energy weapon that can kill basically everyone in a 75-foot radius. Rogue Spear has more realistic weapons than that. These parents just need to accept that the kids were mentally unstable.
I feel perfectly fine setting blame sqarely on the shoulders of these two kids because they were just bad. I play 1st person shooters, have since Castle Wolfenstein. I've dressed in black and listenen to hardcore heavy metal. I've owned a gun since I was twelve. But I NEVER thought Hilter was a cool guy like these kids did. I never shot innocent people like these kids did. Maybe people sometimes just turn out bad through no one's fault but their own. Why can't folks accept that and stop looking for someone else to blame?
In true American fashion, wouldn't it be best to just blame the media? I mean, CBS, CNN, NBC, all of them. These kids weren't playing "Shoot up Your School", some game where they stockpile weapons, get picked on by bullies and then go on murderous rampages. They were watching the news...ROUND THE CLOCK news on every aspect of previous shootings. Hell, the tv stations and big shows like Dateline and 60 minutes have a lot of money too.
Well here in San Diego we have a radio/tv campaign going about stating, "Don't bully kids. Thats not cool" Or something like that. . .
Point is that here in San Diego we are not blaming the games, Hollywood, or even gun manufacturers. Someone had the bright idea to actually look at the root of the problem and NOT try to sue the fsck out of every last corporation.
People who are against human cloning must be bitter they are not good enough to be cloned.
This type of thing disgusts me. I'm 19 years old now and have been playing violent video games ever since I was 10 years old. My parents actually sat down and looked at the games I was playing when I was young. If they didn't like it I couldn't play it. The only game I think they didn't allow me to play was Leisure Suit Larry. They didn't really like Wolfenstien and later Doom but they raise me to be smart enough to know the difference between the real life and video games.
If parents are raising kids that are so influenced by games and fantasy then it's time to step back a maybe ask the question of how these kids are being raised. There will always be bad things in the media whether is be the six o'clock news or the latest video game you can't just make the stuff go away by sueing anyone who put it in a video game that you have end up buying.
Dale Todd, Evan's father, said he hooked up with Thompson through research he did on violent video games. He even obtained a copy of "Doom" and played it himself. He was appalled.That's great Dale, I'm glad to hear you have an opinion. You are right, kids don't need to be playing violent games. I like violent video games myself. I don't really think it's fair to be taking away video games I like to play just because some kids have bigger problems that a lot of people don't want to admit (maybe the answer is a little close to home) to so they end up pointing the blame to the media.
I can tell you to jump of a bridge but it's your fault if you do it. If children aren't old enough and haven't been taught about the real world then maybe people shouldn't be raising their kids on video games and television. And if they don't have the time to raise their kids properly then maybe they shouldn't be having kids.
there was a time in the mid-nineties where i must have played doom 10 hours a day for weeks on end, and i despise guns, and i don't walk around the nyc subway seeing imps ("gurglegurglegurgle") to shoot in the dim lighting and viewing life through a gunsight in general...
the argument could even be made that first person shooters channel the needs of the deluded and trigger happy into a harmless release... leaving them not needy of the desire to do something awful in real life...
but at the same time, you can understand the family's feelings- an unwillingness to accept that true evil can come from anywhere, including their own flesh in blood... even hitler had a mom, and mothers will always pledge to the innocence of their sons no matter what vile thing they do...
it's just sad, that's all...
my sister and i had a running argument about why denver was a better city to live in than new york city mainly because she had a mid-eighties view of new york being run afoul with punks and gangs and "fort apache the bronx" type imagery that i think a lot of middle america has of new york city... nobody seems to understand that human nature is a constant across geography and there is no "good" "safe" place to live and "bad" "evil" places in the world... after columbine, my sister and i dropped the argument...
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30.
WAIT -- how does Carmack (or any other video game creator/company) have any control over whether or not a video game rated M (for mature) is sold to children under 17? Isn't that the store's responsibility? And the responsibility of the parents of the child? Excuse me, but once a store buys the video game, it's the store's responsibility to keep children from buying the game.
The same thing applies to buying cigarettes and alcohol -- stores are required to ask for identification before they can sell these products, and if they don't the clerks can face criminal charges and the store can get a major fine. We don't see Budweiser being called on to prohibit the sale of beer to people under 21.
At least, not yet....
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Bored? I promise nothing...
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Bored? I promise nothing...
Cole's Axiom: The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant. The population is growing
While I hold these kids personally responsible for what they did.... Games such as DOOM have been found to increase Hand-Eye Coordination to the point you could consider you have been trained in WEAPONS Combat. I think I even remember the Army using it as a simulator for training purposes. Is this GOOD? Well it depends on how you look at it. Virtual Training like this is definitely cheaper for the ARMED FORCES to do before putting live weapons in their hands. The question here is not whether these games made them KILLERS. The question is if these games made them EFFICIENT Killers? And is this something that can be sued over? Again, there are numerous games out there similar to DOOM, like Star-Wars Dark Forces. You know Good Guy versus Bad Guy. Up front these look innocent... (I actually find these kind of boring) but the heart of these is to be a quick shot --- be stealthy, and survive. Here is a flipside to that theory... several students actually survived by being stealthy and, doing whatever they could to survive. Can anyone of these claim that they had never played one of the games ever. Children's games have always included elements you could blame for this tragedy... like Hide & Seek , Cops & Robbers , and Cowboys & Indians.... Who is more responsible -- the gaming companies or the parents? Sure the gaming companies could stop making these.... but most (i.e. 99+ % ) of the people out just play these for entertainment. I tend to lead toward blaming the parents more than the gaming companies. But where does the parent draw the line on video games? Now there are places like LASER-Quest and other to play PAINTBALL. How do you know if this is just a fun event or are you training a killer to be more of a killer. No matter what anyone wants to blame this tragedy, these kids snapped mentally. They had had enough abuse and were going to fight back. Video Games did not game them the money to purchase weapons. Video games did not teach them how to make pipe bombs. Video games did not make these two kids friends til the end. Video games did not tell them how to plan this. There are many socially repugnant icons is this day and age.... Drugs, prostitution, gang violence, etc. There are many even less socially repugnant icons is this day and age.... Like the violence in movies, TV, games, literature, etc. Is the answer complete censorship? While we are burning the CD's these games come on --- should we throw the videos and books and everything else into the fire too? A great man did that..... well not exactly great, but a powerful tyrant set on absolute control. He used control information to pollute the minds of his followers. Who is this person, well you could probably point to several? Hitler, David Koresh, Reverend Jim Jones, Sadam Husein.. etc. etc. Remember this country is based on freedoms drawn in the Constitution. Our forefathers gave us the right to bear arms so the government could not control us in a police state like the Brits tried. Is this good --- yes!!! Is there a bad side too ---- YES. Just some thoughts.
David Byrd
CEO - 21st Century Tech., Inc.
URL: http://www.nite-surfer.com
David Byrd
CEO - 21st Century Tech., Inc.
URL: http://www.nite-surfer.com
See our Illuminated Keyboard
In fact I am launching my own suit against that bastard that wrote Chuckie Egg. My class action is for 10 bags of corn and a fox proof run.
I don't know if someone posted it here or not but funniest thing I've read so far is this example: Well are you going to tell me that if your son was playing mario he would jumping on kids heads to kill them??
For now on, when something goes awry, I am going to blame everyone but myself. When I was growing up, I was bullied, played video games, watched violent TV/Movies/CARTOONS, read comic books, et cetera. However, I seem to have grown up perfectly sane and responsible. According to all the profiles and research, I should have killed someone by now. Why haven't I, because my parents kept me grounded and helped me deal with the problems and obstacles that arose in my life. Therefore, as an adult, I am able to deal with the problems and obstacles that arise.
Since man has been writing (and speaking I imagine) violence and sex have been a part of literature, theatre, and entertainment. Roman texts describe fights between men over their male concubines. The Bible tells the story of how Cain killed his brother Abel. Everyone dies at the end of Hamlet. Children have fought many imaginary wars between the good-guys and the bad-guys. (Which seems more realistic sitting at a computer shooting video game generated characters or running around with a nerf gun shooting other kids?)
Parents need to take off their rose-colored glasses and pull their heads out of the sand. The world and your child are not as perfect as you like to imagine them. Because you say your child is to nice to bully anyone, it does not mean he doesn't. Even though you told your daughter not to have sex until she is married, this does not guarantee that she won't. (Making condoms available may seem to encourage kids to have sex; however, in all actuality and honesty they are going to do it if they want to so help keep them safe.)
People need to stop believing the crusades started by the government (an attempt to make themselves look better in the public eye) and begin thinking for themselves. Our ability to rationalize is what seperates us from other creatures and if I want someone to mindlessly follow me around, I know the location of the local pound. The government has lead crusades against drugs, guns, rock and roll, hackers, and tobacco.
I think you get the idea. The government is not always right. The real world can be harsh and rough. Look for the real porblem, not a scapegoat. Also, free speech doesn't exclude those things that you don't want to hear.
Only possible in the great US of A with the ancient legal system. HA!
This is bullshit. Suing a company because some kid played some video games and suddenly "became violent" and decided to shoot up a school. Why not lay the blame where it really lies? With the parents of the shooters, with the kids that teased them and pushed them to this point, and the school system that sat idly by while this all happened? Most of the blame lies with the families of the shooters, for not recognizing their kids were fucked up, and taking an active role in trying to get them help. I hope this lawsuit backfires..
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
I find the way this pans out always quite amusing. I mean, making money off of your kids death is quite popular these days. Look at the Goldman kid who died in the OJ Simpson fiasco. His dad goes on to get a talkshow, tons of media coverage, and a pretty lucrative career out of it. Im a 32 year old father, I grew up with the video game, heavy metal, porn, the whole multimedia circus and a general disdain for anyone over 40. I watch what my kids are consuming. My daughters dont see violent cartoons, because i am interested enough as a parent to care what they see and experience. they dont play with guns as toys, or swords or any other tool of violence, because I chose to not expose them to that. I have played video games my entire teen to adult life. many violent, many quite disturbing, I have a great porn collection, and am I a violent sociopath or objectifier of women or rapist? No. Have i thought of wiping out my enemies from time to time? hell yeah!!!! but would I? of course not. I dont agree with everything that the media does but it is not reasonable to think that they should be censored. that is my job as a parent to do. and I do it. maybe the rest of the world should try it as well and i guarantee you wont have the problems that you have today if we just take a look in our kids closets and more importantly their hearts to see if they are hurting from something.
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This is disgusting. The lawyers of these families are capitolizing on the tragic deaths of their children by conviently trying to sue one of the most profitable U.S. enterainment industries. They smell money, pure and simple. Nobody with an ouce of common sense can say these games caused those kids to kill.
Game Companies are being sued for selling the games to the kids that is considered to be voilent. Apparently game designed to be only be fun played by people. I don't understand why the game influenced the 2 kids to shoot these kids in high school. This sounds riducilous to me because game company only wants to design game that is suppose to be fun to play, not a voilent images. I think kids need to be educated more because the game doesnt mean they should prepare to shoot people in head just because they are inspired by the shooting game such Doom or Quake 3. This really sounds stupid to me. I hope game companies can win on this case cuz they are losing money and parents want s them to stop selling games to kids, that is good thing sometimes BUT , It is bad because game companies are more like a scrapegoat cuz they dont intent to make game just to make kids think they can shoot people, they are only making game for fun. That is ironic.
When I saw this article, at first I thought it was a joke, then it sunk in that it wasn't, and all I felt after that was pity for the people bringing the suit. Pity, that someone would be so narrow minded and greed filled, that they would turn a horrendous event such as Columbine into a source of money. I'll give you a little background on my situation. I'm a 20 year old Network Administrator from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. I graduated from a local Private school with average grades, and went on to University to take Computer Science. When I discovered that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing for the rest of my life, I found a summer job, and stuck with it. I am also a gamer. I have been playing computer games since I was 2, and I have been playing online games since I was 14. Doom, Doom2, Quake, Quake2, Quake3, Half-Life, and all the other games that the media has stereotyped as "Violent" and completely out there, plus more. I've played them all, and I've played them all against real people, not just computer controlled characters. And you know what? I don't have a problem distinguishing between reality and fantasy. Sure, when I see these shoot-em-up movies on TV these days with gratuitous violence, people blowing up, etc, I don't get squeamish, hell, sometimes when it's so over the top it's funny. But when I see footage of real events on TV, acts of violence that REALLY happened, it gets to me, and I know it gets to almost all of my online brothers. The fact that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 16 people, and the fact that they played violent computer games are completely separate. They would have killed people anyways, that's just the type of people they were. Maybe their parents smacked them when they cried as children, maybe they were breastfed too long. The fact remains, they killed people, and I don't kill people. And _I_ have played games that are WAY more violent than Doom ever was. Doom was the first of it's kind. You were running through complete fantasy lands, blowing up aliens, NOT humans. Quake was the same thing, it just looked a little nicer. And another trend I have been noticing about this incident, and similar incidents in general is no one blames the parents. If I was about to go kill a bunch of my classmates or co-workers, you can be sure MY parents would have noticed signs, and would have caught it before the event took place. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's parents were either very very detached from their kids, or didn't care when their kids started becoming destructive. And what the hell do they expect to happen if they let the TV and Computer raise their kids for them. I know both of their parents might have worked full time, I know time might have been a item that wasn't stocked in a large quantity, but I do know it sure doesn't take a hell of a lot of time to ask their kids how their days went, and how they are doing. Maybe instead of persecuting the media and gaming industry, and wasting money on stupid court cases, the US Government should invest in a parenting program. All kids when they enter puberty have birth control devices implanted under their skin which last for 3 or so years. They are renewed every 3 years, and then after marriage or whenever a child is wanted, the couple has to go to a parenting program. If they fail, they have to have the birth control devices renewed, and if they fail the program 3 times in a row, they are permanently sterilized. Sound stupid? Almost as stupid as suing people who have done nothing, and ignoring people who have everything to do with it. Suing people for events they have absolutely no control over is stupid, greedy, moronic, despicable, etc. So, in closing, let me make my position perfectly clear. The fault is not with the Media, or with the Software Industry who produce violent movies / games. The fault is with the Parents of the kids who act on the movies and games for not taking more interest in the kid's life and giving them a proper set of morals. If Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's parents had taught them right for wrong, this event would never have taken place. And if the media wasn't so high-and-mighty about who's right, who's wrong, and why they killed them, and oh what a tragedy, these copycats would have never done it. Matt "BuBBa" Lowe www.ministryofpain.com By the way, you might want to look at gun control for a solution to your problem, just take a look at how many violent crimes in Canada involve semiautomatic hand guns compared to the states. Only school shooting we've had here in Canada (in Alberta) involved hunting rifles, and you can't take down half your graduating class with a hunting rifle. Just something to look at when people get tired of suing each other.
If it wasn't for stupid people, I would be out of a job.
i would have nominated them for a darwin award if they killed their parents first... as it stands now, 2 sets of bad parents can still unleash their stupid spawn onto the world...
If it wasn't for stupid people, I would be out of a job.
ya, ok... so, you are going to charge budwiser and gm execs when some guy goes out gets drunk and then runs over a family? kthxno
If it wasn't for stupid people, I would be out of a job.
Gimme a break.
Anyone remember the short story "Rage" from the 80's by Richard Bachman (A.K.A. Stephen King)? As a young yankee growing up in a small southern fishing village I relished this story and it's prevailing sence of vigalant retribution. I never re-enacted the story, but does the author deserve to get sued over giving me confirmation of and embellishing my pre-existing frustration?
P.T.T.P.
-j
If you ban guns, I'll still be able to get a crate of full-auto HK G3s for a rather nice price. I hope they ban guns, cause then my friends and I are going to take over the country with sporks! And HK G3s. But we'll have the sporks too. -Spade Rochester Instiute of Technology Freshman, MEA
Perhaps the appropriate response from companies such as ID Software would be to request that the parent produce proof that their children even owned legal copies of software such as the much-vaunted Doom. Let's face it, chances are high ID never got a penny out of the parties involved, and they are being sued as the result of illegal use on the part of the kids! Perhaps the problem is not violent video games corrupting the youth, but rather already-corrupt youth STEALING violent video games is more a symptom?
Normally, I'm just a lurker at /., but I thought I should share this:
I was a field installer on contract to an international megacorp that had just swallowed ..er.. 'merged' with another international megacorp. A couple months back I had the pleasure of visiting Denver for a set of installs in the Littleton area. I can describe the area in just one word: sub-divisions. Lots and lots of 'em. By my best guess, twenty years ago this had been Mayberry RFD, but now it was Buffy-ville.
By mid-week, there was some serious snowfall, and I was amazed at the high rate of drivers skidding and sliding all over. I asked a worker at one of my sites how come nobody in Denver knew how to drive in the snow, and she replied that they weren't from Denver - most of the locals were from California.
On the drive back to the hotel, I was thinking about that, and about Columbine. IIRC, neither Klebold and Harris had been at the school long. I had the experience of having attended the same school district for 13 years, just how many of the kids at Columbine - the killers included - had the bonus of having to make totally new friends, adjusting to new surroundings, and redefining everything they thought was hip and groovy? High school was hard enough. Imagine if you had to totally change the game plan midway through.
IMO, this suit is a joke. Yeah, the parents of the killers pretty much flipped the Moron Meter. And I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. However, I think that there's more than just 'simple answers to a complex problem' (shout out to Gabe 'n Tycho), and I'm only scratching the surface of what led to that infamous day.
"The revolution will not be televised!" -- Flavor Flav
The inherent problem with the American legal system is that you can sue anyone and get away with it. In some countries, if you bring a civil lawsuit against a person or a company, you are responsible for paying their legal bills if you lose. Needless to say, in those countries, frivolous corporate lawsuits are few and far-between.
But we live in the land of democracy, free trade and the freedom to get an attorney and sue anyone we damn well please. We're Americans, we should be proud of this fact. Nowhere else in the world can you sue the manufacturers of cigarettes because you didn't quit when the quantity of tar in your lungs exceeded that of the La Brea tarpits in California.
On April 21, 2001, just a few hours shy of the two-year statute of limitations, the wife and family of a slain teacher brought a lawsuit against twenty-five media companies for a grand total of five-billion dollars in damages. Please realize that twenty more of these lawsuits would clearly put these families into the extortion-level of Dr. Evil. The lawsuit was brought mainly against video-game manufacturing companies.
Notably absent from the lawsuit was anyone directly affiliated with the killers, such as the parents. Sadly, parenting is not a $20-billion-a-year industry, as video games are; and so a lawsuit brought against people who might actually be partially responsible would make no sense (since it would make no money).
"But money may be the smallest part of the goal," says John DeCamp, the Sanders' attorney.
At this point, let me reiterate that this is a five-BILLION dollar lawsuit.
It should be added that Nintendo was named in the lawsuit. More than likely, the classic 1985 Mario & Luigi game "Wrecking Crew" brought about the killers' desire to level the Columbine high school with pipe-bombs. Granted, five-billion dollars is a lot of money, but how would you like to be known as the person who yelled, "Pokemon killed my daddy!!!"
The suit contends that the video game industry does not, nor will it, effectively regulate itself to keep violent games out of the hands of minors. This would be much easier for the video game industry if parents took an active interest in their children's lives.
The father of an injured student sent a letter to John Carmack, "just to let him know we're on his trail." Way to go, buddy, I think I saw that one on an episode of Scooby-Doo. If we take off Carmack's mask, we'll find out he's actually Mr. Smothers, the carnival-owner, right?
This man also said (there must've been a giant media junket for this lawsuit; like a coming-out party), "These kids don't need to be playing violent games. But corporations don't have social consciences." And this man is completely right. Just last week I saw Shigeru Miyamoto holding a gun to a kid's head, threatening to pull the trigger if the boy didn't purchase a copy of Soldier of Fortune.
If this lawsuit manages to not get laughed out of court, as did the similar Paducah lawsuit (which created the original 'Nintendo Killed My Daughter!' story), then we'll be living in a country where you need to go to a porn-shop just to get a copy of American McGee's Alice. Strategy guides will be in brown-paper wrappers behind the counter, and age-verification software will be necessary before proceeding into a game-news webpage.
Not that I'm trying to shift the blame away from the media (yes, I am), but the lawsuit implies that this whole Columbine thing would have never happened if not for video games. I say again, notably absent from the lawsuit are anyone who enabled, condoned, or was negligent in allowing the two killers to get their hands on firearms and explosives.
Of course, when you're five billion dollars richer, I suppose you can look past those people.