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China Banning Win2k
Several people have submitted links to several stories about China banning the use of Win2k in government to encourage indigenous software. Here is a story from The San Jose Mercury, and one from
South China Ministry. They will instead be required to use Red Flag Linux, which is being developed by Chinese Researchers.
> Then, there's the "banning" of Windows 2000. Why ban one Microsoft OS and no other?
:-)
Some time ago, Windows 95 has been banned in China, too, because it is too insecure (I can't argue with that)
I can think of several ways that it will benifit all linux users.
1) Better support for 2 byte char systems.
2) A lot of people in China will be using linux. Some of them will be writing new code. With luck we will see some cool software originating in China. Both in terms of totaly new software and
in terms of improvments to existing code.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
There may be some bullshit in this article, but it is not entirely bullshit. For instance, Red Flag Linux apparently does indeed exist, as a Google Linux search will reveal. Linux Weekly News covered it in this article back in August of last year. It also refers to an article in ComputerWorld China (in Chinese, of course).
... does this make Linux the operating system of serial killers?
Now that I've got the "Informative" part of this comment out of the way, I'll add the "Flamebait": For the Chinese government to use a Linux-based OS does not demean Linux. There are millions of people in the world who use Linux-based systems already. Some number of these people are assholes; this does not make Linux an assholes' operating system. Some number of them beat their spouses or children; this does not make Linux a domestically violent operating system. By now there's probably been a serial killer or two who's used Linux
It is true that by using a more efficient, less crash-prone operating system, the Chinese government may become more efficient itself. In theory, this could be bad for the Chinese people: an efficient tyranny is likely worse than an inefficient one. However, I suspect that this would be more than balanced by the fact that involvement with Linux has the potential to lead to greater integration of China with the Net: how are they to keep up with new software developments if they don't have connectivity? And greater integration with the Net might very well lead to the spread of democratic ideals in the Chinese population, especially in the technologically adept population sectors who are most likely to come in direct contact with Linux-based systems.
Finally, I must add the following: China (says the Guide) is big. Really really big. You may have thought Texas was the epitome of big-itude, but that's just peanuts to China. China has big history, big culture, and lots of other big things too. The Chinese civilization has survived other bogus and tyrannical dynasties, and it will survive the "Mao Dynasty" as well. Right now things are obviously getting a bit shaky over there -- the Falun Gong crackdown indicates to me that the regime is scared of imminent popular uprising. In some sense, wouldn't adoption of Linux (and all that it entails) throw that much more Blessed Chaos into the mixture?
I have to ask just what kind of character support this "Red Flag Linux" is supposed to have. Will it be Simplified Chinese and/or Traditional Chinese?
Remember, Windows 2000 supports both Chinese character sets through Unicode, the international standard for foreign character sets. Unicode supports Latin, Cyrillic, both Chinese sets, Japanese, Hindi, Arabic, Hebrew, Thai and other character sets I don't remember offhand without having to do complicated changes to the OS just to change character displays.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
I guess I feel like being a troublemaker today
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
While I am not a fan of China's draconian governmental policies, which have given us the bloodshet of Tiannamin Square and have nearly killed several cultures (c.f Tibet among others), the principal behind what they are doing -- encouraging indigineous industry and experties and not pouring their money into another country's pockets, is a sound one.
:-)
I suspect if the used FreeBSD or Linux, they would quickly develop a remarkable level of local talent and expertise, having the source to hack on and improve. It would be truly ironic if a government like China's were to become an outspoken advocate of Open Source software. Not the spokesman I would choose, certainly, but a billion new Linux users in Asia wouldn't be all bad, either.
Alas, I suspect some home-grown, proprietary system will be what is standardized on, rather than an international collaborative project like Linux and FreeBSD.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The Chinese government isn't imposing Linux in the private sector, nor is it banning Windows 2000 from retail shelves in China. It is banning its use in government ministries and mandating the use of a free alternative that is more secure, more stable, less expensive, and more capable of developing local programming talent by virtue of the fact that the end user has access to the source code. The private sector is free to continue pirating^H^H^H^H^H^H purchasing Windows for its use.
It is entirely appropriate for a body to mandate what its internal software standards are. Our government does this all the time, as does any large corporation. In fact, our government has been known to mandate to contractors and subcontractors what products they may, or may not use, on more than one occasion, which is far more intrusive into the "free" market than what China is presently doing.
It is nice to see, for once, that such a mandate actually has a grain of intelligence and thoughtfulness behind it, something that is all too often lacking. It is very, very ironic indeed that a government as draconian and reactionary as that of China would be one of the first to be open minded enough to evaluate and then embrace Open software (if, in fact, that is actually what they are doing).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Recently there has been a spate of articles here and elsewhere touting the wonderful benefits that would acrue of a government adopted Open Source software. France is being hailed as a nation with ultra-enlightened statesmen for considering Open Source, and there is a push to lobby the US to do the same.
Now comes this story. Even though it's a hoax, imagine if it were true. Only Red Star Linux may be used. Debian, Redhat, SuSE, Slackware may NOT be used. This would be a government deciding not what *kind* of software it would use, but what *specific* piece of software to use. Although every other government seems to be predominantly Microsoft based, none has ever mandated a specific operating system nationwide.
This is not freedom in *ANY* sense of the word. And any here who would be in favor of such a policy don't want the freedom they claim they do, but instead just want their pet OS to win, fair or foul.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I thought China and Microsoft made a deal for a site license, a few years back. So that all computers in China could use Microsoft Windows.
Pretty big Site if you ask me. I think the reason for this was that chine had been using pirated copies and the Copyright laws there are not very tight. And like all Western companies MS saw a huge future market in China.
Hopefully they are seeing the light and dropping Windows. I believe the Chineese are smart people.
First off, it's nice to see a government making better use of its resources by not paying for software that can be had for free. Not that China ever paid for much software, software theft is pretty much the norm.
On the downside, China is going to have problems developing an "entrepeneur economy" if the government dictates technology. "Use Linux not W2K" is OK, but what if they come down next and say "use MySQL not Oracle" or "use GTK not Qt"?
--
E_NOSIG
China's still the most populous nation in the world until India takes over ~2030.
So, as China industrializes, why should China let non-Chinese owned RedHat or TurboLinux own their HUGE market for new OS installs?
realistically, China needs a free OS. There are just too many people who will need low cost access, and too many government organizations that can't afford to license all of their illegal copies of Commercial software and apps.
It all fits. China will support linux, but only the version that is developed, branded, and offically supported by the CHinese government.
I mean I'm all for more linux use, but I'm not sure banning another operating system (even if just in government use) is a good idea. After all, isn't linux about freedom?
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Nope, Red Flag was developed by Compaq (China)t ml
http://ccurrents.com/newstoday/99/09/01/news4.h
Microsoft and Chinese officials on Thursday denied the report, which appeared in Wednesday's edition of the Yangcheng Evening News.
But a Ministry of Information Industry official, who declined to be identified, said the government was advocating that users bought domestic software.
Microsoft is reeling from a stream of negative publicity in China, fuelled by a vitriolic book written by its former Chinese general manager, Wu Shihong, who accuses her former employer of arrogance and insensitivity to China's needs.
A piracy lawsuit by Microsoft against a small local firm unleashed a nationalist backlash against the U.S. software giant. The suit was thrown out by a Chinese judge last month.
The state-run think tank developing Red Flag-Linux said government offices had expressed strong interest in scrapping Windows for Red Flag, citing security concerns as a chief reason. It's hard to tell which end is up in a autocracy that lacks a free press, but we can see that segments of the Chineese government look down on Windows for all the obvious reasons. See my other article, "low expectations from a command economy," for why I don't think China's 7.1 million internet users will make too big a difference anytime soon.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
A wise move, for they will be able to keep lots of 486's in business. I think Bill Gates himself advised people not to upgrade to W2K until their next computer purchase. The thing ought to be bloated!
The interesting aspect is that this Red Flag distro will certainly not be kept within the gov't . As the chinese seem not to be very fond of purchasing software, we may well have a nation of 1 billion using mostly Linux in the near future.
Maybe there won't be a LinuxOne IPO at all!
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"People ask FAQs all the time". - David Allen
1/6th of the world's population. Right. Who's figures? You gone out and counted them, right? Or are you depending on some published figure for China from a decade ago, then comparing it to the world population of today? Sorry, but that ain't worth a damn. Like with like, or don't bother.
Then, there's this "Government-only" stuff. Yeah. The Government supplies the general public with online documents in Klyx format, or KWord format, and the public -aren't- forced to use Linux. Right. Pull the other one. It's got bells on. That'd be like saying that the French don't -require- you to speak French in their country. They just make sure all official documents and published material is in French, making it impossible for people who don't speak the language to function. You don't have to demand at gunpoint to force someone to do something. You can simply make it impossible to function at anything more than at a very basic level, depending on others at every turn, any other way.
As for the moderators, why should they necessarily understand the "facts"? The Moderator's Guidelines are very clear on the matter. Moderating is NOT about whether you agree or disagree, but about whether the post might be of interest to others.
I've moderated up dozens of posts I personally thought were factually screwy. Why? Because they were still interesting, or still informative, and I believed them worth the effort of reading. My personal opinion on the facts contained therein were irrelevent, as they damn well should be.
I've also moderated down posts that I've personally agreed 100% with, for the same reason. Under the guidelines, they were the sorts of posts that merited the title of "flamebait", "troll", or "overrated". That I agreed, though, doesn't matter. That's not how moderation works here. RTFM! It's all there, -if- you read it.
The same is true of meta-moderation. Meta-moderation isn't about making your voice heard, or any other such nonsense. That's what posting is for! It's about deciding if the moderation is an accurate reflection on the value of the post to other reader. Whether you agree with the contents of the post or not DOESN'T MATTER.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Its the biggest communist country in the world, now before you moderate me down as flamebate, just hear me out... so there is unlikely to be much in the way of backlash from their citizens. (I mean nothing like if the US decided to ban an Operating system (ANY Operating system)). And now they will have the medias eye.
Esentially this could be bad for linux, for all the negative conitations China brings with it. (Ah, before we go any further, I am speaking generally. That particular view isn't one I share. I don't have anything against ANY culture or country (well, except Microsoft ;))).
However, it could be good, it definatly gives us some public relations stunts we can play with.
The largest country in the world runs on Linux, shouldn't you?
Linux doesn't scale well? ha! It serves 3 billion people well
Entire countries are adopting linux, is your business is being left behind?
The Chinese government doesn't trust Windows 2000. Why should you?
etc... etc... etc... (I realize some of these are half-truths, or worse, but what advertising isn't?. These are just examples)..
This could have negative sideeffects in respect to DOJ vs MS. MS has a bit more fodder now.
I think the best thing that will come out of this entire deal is better support for Chinese in Linux. You gotta admit, nothing like 3 billion customers to get you moving :) I can't think of a better OS to support foriegn large alphabets, with complete access to the source code, theres nothing you can't change.
Anyway, don't take this thing to extremes, its just news :)
I use to have a funny sig, but slash cut it off, and I forgot what the punchline was.
This time, Windows 2000 is to be banned, and "Red Flag Linux" is to be given to every computer user in China. (This would make Linux the number #2 OS in the world, by dint of China having more than 50% of the world's population.)
However, I can see a number of key problems with this story. "Red Flag" seems suspiciously similar to "Red Hat", and looks more like a student's play on words than a real product.
Then, there's the "banning" of Windows 2000. Why ban one Microsoft OS and no other? That doesn't make sense. If Linux is to be mandatory, it would make more sense to ban -ALL- other OS', at least those which could seriously threaten Linux' use. But, no, it's only a product which isn't even available yet which is being "banned".
I'm going to put this in the "I'll believe it if I see it" file, also known as the "Z" file. (It's at least two orders of magnitude less probable than "X" files, and you can fall asleep waiting for anything to happen.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It basically says that both Microsoft and the Govt of China both deny the story and that the newspaper (in China) that originally reported it has no evidence for the policy.
For those of you who are posting kneejerk reactions without reading the article:
The story is posted by a Chinese newspaper, and we all know how informed our own media is... Maybe it's true; I'll believe it when I see it, that's all.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I expect much of /.'s community to jump on this with a malicious glee in their eyes, hanging burning Bill Gates dolls and praising Red China for embracing Linux and all that it represents. Remember, "all that it represents", which also means open-sourcing. Do you actually think that China will openly and without any barriers open-source Red Flag Linux? The same country that killed thousands of students at Tienanmen, the same country that suppresed a whole culture (Tibet), the same country that just sent a few dissidents to jail for being part of nothing more than their equivalent of the Rotary club. China is a closed-source country. They're using Linux because it's an open-source OS that they can tweak at will, make it their own. They couldn't do that with Windows2000. So they'll get their own OS, but will I be able to order Red Flag? Will the world be able to see what Chinese coders can do with it? Think again.