Posted by
Roblimo
on from the musicians-rejoice! dept.
Patrix writes "Looks like Jazzware will release under an open source license the next version of their Jazz++ MIDI sequencer! They will also release a GTK+ version for Linux. No info yet on which license they'll use."
48 comments
Re:slashdot
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Anonymous Coward
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So it appears you didn't follow the link either...
Re:This is *no* real Open Source, I smell a swindl
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Anonymous Coward
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" We are happy to announce that the next major version of the Jazz++ midi sequencer will be distributed under an Open Source license. This applies to versions for both Linux and Windows platforms. We expect to release this software by medio february 2000. Among the news in version 4.x will be an ALSA driver for Linux and enhancements on the GUI side (including a GTK+ version for Linux). Open Source not only means that the software is free to use, it also gives the users freedom to enhance the software and correct bugs. In general this leads to a better product and a dedicated user community. We sincerely hope this will happen also to Jazz++ and that all users will benifit from this change of license terms. We give this information some time in advance to give new Jazz++ users a chance to decide whether to wait for the Open Source release. It will of course be possible to buy licenses for version 3.x up to the time of the new release in order to be able to use the current version. There will however be no refund of licenses bought in this period. JAZZ++ is a full featured, audio capable midi sequencer for Windows and Linux. JAZZ++ offers a lot of functions normally only found in expensive sequencer software, and is used by professionals and hobby musicians all over the world. For further information, see http://www.jazzware.com
Slashdot lags seven days behind the initial announcement, duh.
Re:Opening some new doors to some?
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Anonymous Coward
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It could definetly open some doors. I am an amateur musician ( or nowadays even less than that since work gets the major part of time ). Jazz(sequencer) provided me the last promise to switch totally from windows to Linux about 3 years ago. To be honest I missed Cakewalk a lot and had difficulties with my midi-keyboard and ancient awe32, but was so impressed with other Linux goodies that I didn't bother to go back to even dual-booting. I am pianokeyboard-challenged:) and jazz offers some ways to overcome this, but it still hasn't got a decent score-editor like Cakewalk has. Maybe it could get coded in it by someone now... I remember Harmony-browser related stuff is exteremely fun in jazz(sequencer). You can just make some chord progression and play something with extreme feeling and lesser accuracy over it, quantize time and harmonics, correct a few dull notes, and you actually have some quite nice "jazzy" "music".
No Linux support for the ladies :-(
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Anonymous Coward
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I have emailed Echo Corp. for info in Linux support. No go:-(
I did read somwhere that the next version of BeOS will have support for the ladies (Layla, Gina & Darla).
The day something like Cakewalk Pro Audio is available for Linux, win98 will be history!
If Cakewalk had a Linux & win version for the same price, I would gladly buy the Linux version.
bork
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Anonymous Coward
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murheeny horo nenoror bork bork bork
BE OS
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Anonymous Coward
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You want a quality alternative to Windows look at BE OS. Soon Emagic will port their state of the art stuff to BE. I am sure for a lot of ppl Jazz might be enough, but for most amature, semi pro, and pro ppl out there nothing compares to Emagic Logic Audio or Cubase VST. Its great that Apples stranglehold on is being broken, and prices are being forced down.
Not to be a jerk here, but Logic for Be is still very vapor. Even when it comes out, I wonder what MIDI interface cards will be supported. For a Media OS, Be's support for serious MIDI interfaces (meaning MPU-401 UART or similar) seems a little light. Hopefully, the new USB MIDI interfaces will have more support -- I'll happily blow a hundred bucks on hardware to have a quality MIDI interface working in Be.
Does anyone know when the release is expected?
--
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
slashdot
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Anonymous Coward
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If the above statements are true then again Slashdot has jumped on the train way way to soon. I wish that the Slashdot staff, who have been an excellent source for news in the past would try to excerice a bit more journalistic professionalism, instead of posting everything that fits their ideals or hopes. First they post 3 false stories about China. Proving that they dont learn from their mistakes at all. And now this. I fear that more of the stories they post would not stand up too well either. This is sad. It might have to do with Slashdot having gone corporate a few months ago. Big bucks, Big stocks etc have changed the mindset and the professionalism of this site. Its time to find a new place to be, a new site and a new bunch of ppl. Viva Quality Viva Independence
amen to that!
by
Anonymous Coward
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preach on, brother coward!
but what about fat-time charlie?
by
Anonymous Coward
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where does he fit in?
Re:but what about fat-time charlie?
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Anonymous Coward
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The uncle, my porkchop, a FRENCH FRY, delighted. To eat you.
To MEET you. Screaming now. Swooping. Lunatic asylums aren't there to keep you out, they're there to keep us in.
Hasn't Jizz++ code been released as open vagina?
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Anonymous Coward
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I'm sure the source code for Jizz++ was released here. I think it's like on of those MP3 sites where you have to download some porn first before you can get the file you want. That's what's called "Open Vagina" - free software that requires looking at flap shots before you download.
Anyway, Jizz++ only requires you to find the topless Spice Girls picture. Hint - you have to follow the link to "Read Spice Bitch's dirty emails" and follow the links to the end. It's worth it when you get there!
the world may never know..
by
Anonymous Coward
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speaking of which.. let me take a moment to expound upon the many-faceted world of pork. mmm mmm good!
Jazz was open source before. Can we trust them?
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Anonymous Coward
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Jazz was open source before, then the author got greedy. So he made Jazz++, which was closed.
How do we know he won't leech off of open source help again?
What is the best Midi software BTW?
Re:...but they're still charging for Version 3!
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Anonymous Coward
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Yep, I somehow think people who want to buy a professional MIDI & audio sequencer will go for Cubase VST or Logic Audio or something. The bad part is that they run on a Mac or Windows, not Linux as of yet anyway.
I would like to see more open sourced quality music programs for Linux. TerminatorX seems cool, and you can actually do stuff with it even now. However, IMO it needs stereo sample support, some sort of sequencable triggering and a modular effects architechture (a plug-in kind or something) to really progress toward hitting the jackpot.
Just my 0.01 euros...
Re:Good.
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Anonymous Coward
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As for the video editor, Broadcast 2000 will be released soon.
Re:Good. (MTPAV support coming)
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Anonymous Coward
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Motu MTPAV driver (parallel port) for ALSA is underway. I already have multiport stuff working, the next steps are cleanup and ADAT/SMPTE synch, etc.. keep checking www.alsa-project.org Michael T. Mayers (h) tweakoz@pacbell.net (w) tweak@osirisstudios.com
THAT's the license of the OLD version!!
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Anonymous Coward
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Yes, the new version (4.0) will be open source. That link you gave is the OLD VERSION (3.2) license, which does not apply for the v4.0.
Did you even bother to read their goddamn web page?! It says the whole deal in their front page. Sheesh.
Re:What about . . (Re:Good.)
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Anonymous Coward
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Actually the main thing musicians need is midi input and this always seems to be an afterthought. Score composition is wholly inadequate for midi puposes and how are you supposed to deal with sysex messages with score composition. Most musicians want to be able to express themselves through the keyboard or other other midi input devices. You can then use the editors - score, piano roll, controllers for compositon. Get all these features into the sequencer and then we linux users can really start competing with the others.
This is *no* real Open Source, I smell a swindle!
by
Anonymous Coward
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Because thier own rules at http://www.jazzware.com/doc/html/jazz116.html#topi c82 state that you cannot modify the program unless you buy an decrytion key, but IF you buy a decrytion key you can do anything you want to with their product, EXCEPT DISTRIBUTE THE decryted data it is NOT going to be an open source product.
It will either have two source trees : a Crippleware teaser demo and a "pro" demo. Or it will be their same lackluster swill they hawk now, but with a trendy new press release and "OpenSource" obfuscation game the world has rarely seen before.
I bet they probably will not be going free unrestricted BSD, nor the slightly closed GPV but with a wierd thing that will have hypocritical restrictions.
THIS COMPANY is merely trying to get hype and free interest in their mediocre MIDI stuff.
They are trying to confuse people between Open Source and Open Sound System (OSS , such as http://www.linux.org.uk/OSS/ )
Maybe i'm just paranoid.
I could be wrong, but I am a bitter man tired of being tricked all the time by false press releases that dont coincide with revelations of FTP sites containing all rumored goodies. Or the Lame Mozilla slop that the USA national press actually thought would contain Navigator 4 source, or Java/Javascript, or SSL, or 68040 support.
If this company wants to impress me, maybe they would work on contributing free Open source to http://www.alsa-project.org/ to give Linux users all the USB sound technologies that Mac users are starting to get to enjoy.
Re:Two up and coming alternatives
by
oGMo
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Unfortunately none of these are even usable tools for anything serious. (What we're talking about here is MIDI+Digital audio sequencing, specifically, and I would like to see video editing in here to.) These tools may be fine for doing some simple tunes through your SoundBlaster, but unfortunately they don't help much if you're trying to manage a studio with 128+-channels, lots of instruments, and other hardware.
A couple examples of this are how Brahms insists upon using General MIDI names instead of program/bank numbers. GM is not acceptable. It also seems to crash a lot. Both of these will hopefully be fixed - but both currently make it not a solution.
Beast is also not a tool for a studio.
Rosegarden unfortunately seemed extremely limited, and very willing to crash, last time I checked it out as well. (It may have insisted on GM as well, I honestly forget. It's also not being maintained, which is unfortunate, since it really does have a good start.) I will download and try it again.
These all do your standard linear sequencing, too. Try playing with KeyKit sometime. It took me three or four tries to get "into" it, but I think it's probably one of the most powerful, cool things I've seen for sequencing yet. It is very quirky though, and the license prevents me from taking it an reimplementing it using some other toolkit.
BTW, I've been a violinist for the past 17 years or so, so I read music as well. Sometimes the piano roll editor is more applicable to certain types of music, though, where you're not really working with notes and chords (such as ambient techno). Plus, effective controller use from a score view is near impossible, because you don't have a true view of notes over time. This means you have to switch to a piano roll at least some of the time, or have some pretty incredible AI to do it automatically.
But then, I'd not want to play (or write) a sonata from a piano roll printout.:)
--
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
What Musicians Really Want
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David+Greene
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I've been reading the comments here and people have mentioned many sound/music projects for Linux. However, none of these has satisfactory support for input from MIDI devices. Rosegarden has a horrendous interface, Brahms just plain doesn't work and I don't know of any other notation programs for Linux.
What I, as a musician/arranger, want to see is something like Finale. Anyone who's used the "speedy entry" feature knows what I'm talking about. I don't realy need software that can transcribe my playing real-time (though that would be nice), but I do need something that can grab a sample from the MIDI port and stick it on a staff.
Just as important is hardware support. I've got a SoundBlaster 16 with a crappy MIDI port. The thing doesn't work at all. So I went and got a parallel port MIDI interface that works like a charm under Windows. The problem is, there are no Linux drivers. I offered to develop some for the company, but they would not release specs. I can't imagine that this is a difficult driver to write or that the hardware configuration of the interface is so radically innovative that the company (MIDIMan) can't release its top-secret information.
I'd like to see some of these sound applications support MIDI input and some of the hardware companies actually giving a damn about their customers.
Can anyone help me?:)
--
--
But is Rosegarden still alive ?
by
elflord
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The "development" page on their website is dated 1998. The project seems unmaintained, they haven't had any releases for over a year.
Music Hardware? (Slightly OT)
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robwicks
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What sort of hardware support is available under Linux. Can I use, say, a Layla or a Gina by Echo under it? I would love to go full bore into home recording. What about sample editing?
--
Logic... merely enables one to be wrong with authority. -- Doctor Who
Re:...but they're still charging for Version 3!
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SeanNi
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Howabout those people who would pay for it anyway, because they're smart enough to realize that free speech != free beer, and good code is worth paying for, whether its source is available of not? -- - Sean
-- It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Re:...but they're still charging for Version 3!
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divbyzero
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I don't agree that Logic, Cubase, Cakewalk, and other "professional quality" commercial sequencers actually suit the needs of their target users. I am in the target audience, have tried everything on the market, and find all of them to be very lacking.
The good news is that there are a whole crop of new sequencer projects coming from the open source community. In approximate order of vintage, these are Rosegarden, Jazz, Cantor, Gseq, Brahms (aka KooBase), Melys, and Muse. The bad news is that most of these are so busy trying to be clones of the leading commercial ones that they don't have any groundbreaking features of their own.
My own sequencer project "PEGS" is a long way from being ready for users. However, it is based on a very different premise from the leading commercial sequencers, and thus will be able to fill a unique, useful niche of its own when it's finally ready.
-- Div.
But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
-- But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
Was Firefrorefiddle, the Fiend of the Fell.
SLab Direct to Disk Recording Studio. 64 track mixing with 64-16-8-4-2 configuration, user designable desk, floating point mixing. Per track digital dynamics and digital filters. Stereo bus groupings, VU metering, continuous controller recording (mixdown sessions). 16 Effects send busses with stereo effects API, FX chaining, signal level trimming, bus/FX bypass. Includes echo, reverb, flange, phase, chorus, leslie, valve, compressor, limitor, stereographic EQ, etc.
Full tape spooling with location memories, SMPTE counters. Up to 16 IO channels (8 Stereo devs), with IO noise reduction processing, audio data compression to disk, audio metronome, micro-adjustable speed, punch in/out. TCL/TK 8.0 based "drag and drop" user interface. MultiProcessing/shared memory mix engine.
Kernel requires SYSV_IPC, OSS/Linux 3.9.2m/k2.0.35 advised for full duplex.
Does anyone know if there is any midi integration into the audio direct to disk functionality? I had a quick scan, but couldn't find any immediate information on the official web site.
not Open Source (mostly) or Linux, but...
by
fingal
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If you want to work with ProAudio, yet get a little bit nervous of the stability of Windows then I would take a serious look at BeOS as an audio platform.
Apparently there is more stuff at http://www.be.com/beware but their web server doesn't feel too responsive.
Can't seem to find any confirmed drivers for the Mark of the Unicorn hardware as yet, but various rumours seem to be floating about concerning imminent support...
This is why I still use Windows for MIDI
by
CausticPuppy
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I can't wait for the day that I can do everything I need to, music-wise, on Linux. Jazz++ has all the features of expensive high-end sound software? If Cakewalk Home Studio is considered high-end, then sure. This is where Linux sure could use some more hardware support. I'm currently using Cakewalk Pro Audio in Winderz, and here's why: 1) Native soundfont support! Maybe someday Linux will have soundfont support with the SBLive. I load up to 64MB worth of soundfont banks into memory, 32MB of which can be used at any given time by the Live card. GM/XG doesn't do it for me. CL has good OS driver support now, so maybe it won't be long. 2) Multiple soundcard support? Maybe Linux does this, but if it does, the current version of Jazz++ doesn't (didn't see a feature list for v4 on the site). I've got an SBLive and a Turtle Beach Pinnacle, which is hooked up to my DAT for digital transfers. They get along surprisingly well under Win98. 3) Cakewalk has a very nice built-in patch manager, with name search. It's a good thing, too, because my wavestation has 500+ ROM patches that I'd hate to have to enter the names for (that's a Cakewalk feature, most studio software under windows or mac does something similar). 4) Linux has nearly non-existent support for external MIDI I/O ports. I'm using the joystick ports on both my soundcards (Wavestation SR and Proteus MPS on external interfaces). External MIDI support may be there on the Pinnacle but it's not on the current Live drivers last time I checked. And what about real multiport midi interfaces like MOTU? 5) I surely don't have what I consider high-end hardware, but no MIDI sequencer can be called "professional" if it doesn't have support for digital mixers, multi-port digital I/O cards (Like Event Layla, etc), ADAT, etc. However, if your job is strictly to create GM MIDI sequences, then Jazz++ under Linux may fit the bill just fine (especially if v4 is free as in beer). The problem is that there's just not much need for GM sequences anymore.
The way I see it, Linux multimedia support is where Win3.11 was back when the Mac was the multimedia king, and there wasn't any REAL studio software for Windows. I'll give it some time-- I like Cakewalk P/A because I know it inside and out, and if the day eventually comes when Cakewalk (or Cubase) runs natively under Linux, supporting all my hardware, that will be a very happy day. In the meantime, I gotta stick with what works.
-- -CausticPuppy
"Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Re:This is *no* real Open Source, I smell a swindl
by
rotor
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Slashdot lags seven days behind the initial announcement, duh.
Hehheh... I sent it in to them the day that mailing went out, but I guess they didn't like my wording or somethign because it was rejected =)
Though music is still a niche industry when it comes to software and hardware manufacturers, I just wish that some companies would belly up to the bar and commit to Linux. I recently begged/pleaded/sucked up to Midiman to provide I/O register specs for one of their older, but more pro-oriented, audio cards: I could not seem to convince anyone that it was in everyone's interest to provide such info, which may eventually build a bigger market for their products. I need a new multi-MIDI interface, but I'm not gonna buy one until I see that it is supported by Linux. Perhaps if people hear this from enough of us, they might get the hint.
-- I left my sig in my other pants.
Opening some new doors to some?
by
Sarin
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I'm a musician, and used to ($500) cubase, only thing is with the crappy steinberg company, they are a little bit slow in developing also I don't seem to have another choice than windows with my pc for my sequencing. So I remind myself to save a lot in hope the computer doesn't reset.. I think this might help people to switch to a more stable environment (excuse me: stable) and it'll help to develope new sequencer-apps aswell, this is a good step forward and I'd like to enjoy the future fruits of this.
Re:"open source" by itself doesn't say much anymor
by
nuance
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The term "open source" really doesn't mean much anymore...
In the short term, I suggest people stop getting excited just because a company announces releasing something "open source". We should wait until the sources and the license are available for everybody to look at.
In the long term, I think we need to replace the term "open source" with something more self-descriptive.
We already have a "more self-descriptive" term - free software. There would be less of this ambiguity if we all just called a spade a spade. As you rightly point out Open source software is not necessarily the same as free (speech not beer) software.
To answer some frustrations that several posters had...
** Soundcard Support ** In order to find out what support exists for high-end audio cards, look at what OSS and ALSA support. For example, OSS has commercial support for several high-end cards...
It's the same situation that the Linux community encountered with high-end graphics cards over the last few years. Manufacturers refused to release information for developers to write drivers. Some released their own proprietary drivers.
Please don't blame the developers. Also make sure to email your demands to the soundcard manufacturers!
** Lack of professional sequencer software ** Jazzware releasing their source code as Open Source should be viewed as Good Thing (TM). Let's hope this builds momentum towards an Open Source, professional-level MIDI sequencer. (Note: MOD trackers are different animals.)
I'm excited about the ALSA sequencer API. AFAIK, the OSS MIDI API only supports only one connection at a time to the MIDI port and doesn't use a timer. Having a better API should help. Does anyone know if the ALSA sequencer API code is ready for prime time yet?
On the other hand, you could always email requests to your favorite sequencer application company like Steinberg or Cakewalk...
I have used version 3 and I must say that they are in bad need of some Open Source help. You can get better performance from some of the cheaper and/or free packages out there.
Does saying 'Open Source' (with capital letters) always mean a license compatible to the Open Source Definition? Wouldn't it be more accurate to talk about OSI Certified licenses? (the article talks about 'Open Source', but I was just wondering..)
I read on the opensource.org website's FAQ the following:
While there is agreement on the broad term `open source' as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. We strongly encourage everyone who cares about open software to use the term only to describe licenses that conform to the OSD, or software distributed under such licenses; but since the term has passed into more general use, we also encourage people to refer to the ``OSI Certified'' mark, which has precision and legal force in identifying software distributed under licenses that are known to meet the OSD requirements.
Finally. The one thing Linux needs and is severely lacking is good multimedia studio software. Correction. Any multimedia studio software. The only projects are not really in active development from what I can tell, except Melys, and that's fairly new. KeyKit is pretty cool, although a bit ugly by modern standards, but it has a few problems, especially the license.
As you can see from general searching and The Linux Sound and MIDI page, there isn't much else going on. I don't even see an attempt at a nonlinear video editor.
Also there are some unfortunate driver issues. I requested specs for the Motu MTP AV after purchasing one, only to get a reply that the information wasn't available to the public... so I can't write a driver, and am forced to use it like a cheap MIDI switch. (I'm going to continue to bug them, of course. It would benefit them and the Linux community to at least have open drivers. They sell more, we get software support and better, more capable studios.)
This really is a step in the right direction for the Jazz people, though, since they don't have a lot of regular updates. Hopefully they will use a Free(tm) license like the GPL. I applaud them in their decision, though, this is something I've been hoping for for awhile. Thanks guys!
--
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Re:...but they're still charging for Version 3!
by
jbrw
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From the website: "We give this information some time in advance to give new Jazz++ users a chance to decide whether to wait for the Open Source release. It will of course be possible to buy licenses for version 3.x up to the time of the new release in order to be able to use the current version. There will however be no refund of licenses bought in this period."
Sounds as though they're being pretty upfront with potential (paying) customers about the situtation, which is good enough for me. (Not that I matter in the slightest, you understand)
...j
Rosegarden : maintained but not enhanced
by
LizardKing
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· Score: 2
The original authors of Rosegarden have recently issued a patched up release that fixes a number of bugs. Personally I haven't had it crash on me, but I do agree that aRts/Brahms is a bit buggy at present. There again, I stopped using Cubase because Steinberg seem more interested in adding new features than sorting stablility issues. Thank god for the decent hardware sequencer in my W-30!
I'm surprised theres's been so many posts already without any mention of Rosegarden
When i first started playing around with midi on Linux, the first program i found was Jazz++. It's got plenty of features if you like editing music on what looks and feels like a piano roll.
Unfortunately, I've been cursed with the knowledge of how to read music, so the piano roll feels clumsy.
Rosegarden is GPL'd and includes a well developed notation editor, it's own scripting language for the technically inclined, and will even help you print sheet music.
It's known to run on Linux, FreeBSD, Irix, and even OpenVMS. And yes, it's completely free and open source.
Jazz++ does have some nice features, like GS compatibility, but for my purposes it would be incredibly obtuse to use for anything other than final touch-ups to the score.
What i need, and what i suspect most musicians prefer, is a midi sequencer with a notation editor - and there's already a pretty good one out there with a GPL license.
-- This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Wanted: a full suite of digital audio apps
by
SurfsUp
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· Score: 2
I invaded a Windows machine with Linux over the holiday - the spare machine in a basement digital recording studio. It only has 45 gig of disk whereas the main machine has 100+:-) - anyway, there was room to put in Linux on one of the ide drives - I guess 13 gig should be enough room for now:-). The machine got Mandraked.
Unfortunately, we seem to be some distance away from being able to replace the rather awesome digital audio software running on the main machine under Win98. This is German-made software the name of which escapes me at the moment. Suffice to say that the Win98 drives are not going to get fdisked until Linux can do *everything* the Win98 machine can. (Except crash "once a week" of course.)
So, please help me, what have we got *now* that can be evaluated, and falls into the professional digital audio category? What's coming down the pipe?
Software is needed to:
do 12 + tracks of real time mixing/filtering/other processing at 96 khz, 24 bits/sample quad
support a-d input 24 bits/sample stereo interfaced through a high-end card I forget the name of (hey, I wasn't expecting the issue to come up today, I'm just the mechanic, ok?)
do all kinds of other neat, wizbang digital studio stuff
I apologize for the imprecise definition of the problem, but please, help me anyway. Goodness me, if we don't liberate this machine soon it could get sucked into the Win2000 black hole.:-o
-- Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Re:...but they're still charging for Version 3!
by
SurfsUp
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· Score: 2
Who's going to buy it? Of those who really have to have it right now, who's going to buy it and not throughly resent it?
People who need it and don't think the price is too high. People who want to wait can do that too: it's a free world, at least as far as that goes. This is nothing but good for all concerned.
We already have a "more self-descriptive" term - free software. There would be less of this ambiguity if we all just called a spade a spade. As you rightly point out Open source software is not necessarily the same as free (speech not beer) software.
The interesting point here is that often when the term "free software" is mentioned, the example of "speech not beer" is also tagged on. There's a reason for that. "Free" means many things. In business, its usually closer to the free beer than free speech.
Enter "open source". Good attempt. Avoids abiguity over the pricing issue. Opens up a different can of worms (as this thread has pointed out).
We need a new term.
Or maybe we need to continue playing by the business world's rules. That's what true "open" licenses do. They use the license tool business usually use to lock away code to open it up (no jihad on licenses, please). The next logical step is to define what this software is (ie: Open Source) and protect that definition with legal tools. Be that trademark or what have you.
I know, I know... its nasty work. Its something we'd rather not soil or ideology with. But we either do it or allow profiteers to muddy the waters for their own gain.
...but they're still charging for Version 3!
by
Paul+Crowley
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· Score: 3
They hope to release Version 4.0 as Open Source by mid-Feb, but until then they're still charging for Version 3 just as before.
Who's going to buy it? Of those who really have to have it right now, who's going to buy it and not throughly resent it? When Netscape announced the open sourcing of Netscape 5, they had the sense to make Version 4 gratis at the same time.
I'm not in the audience for this software anyway, it just seems a curious decision... --
"open source" by itself doesn't say much anymore
by
jetson123
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· Score: 3
The term "open source" really doesn't mean much anymore, other than that you get the sources in one way or another. I don't necessarily fault companies for that. The common sense meaning of "open source" is that you easily get the sources somehow, nothing more. I think the term is not well chosen, and we should abandon it. Many licenses that can be reasonably called "open source" do nothing to encourage sharing and joint development; in fact, they may outright prohibit it.
The "official" Open Source Definition tries to define "open source" more tightly. But since the term isn't trademarked and since it has a different common sense meaning, it fails. Furthermore, even the "Open Source Definition" has some holes in it.
In the short term, I suggest people stop getting excited just because a company announces releasing something "open source". We should wait until the sources and the license are available for everybody to look at.
In the long term, I think we need to replace the term "open source" with something more self-descriptive.
Two up and coming alternatives
by
LizardKing
·
· Score: 4
There's aRts and Brahms for KDE which provide a virtual synthesiser and sequencer respectively. There is even talk of adding direct to disk recording (think Cubase VST) as aRts provides the means to do this. The URL's are:
For the GNOME fans among us, there is Beast which has been in devlopment for a long time but only recently saw the light of day. This gives similar functionality as aRts/Brahms. It's URL is:
http://beats.gtk.org/
Also check out news.gnome.org for the official announcement of a Beast snapshot.
There is also a venerable package called Rosegarden. Development has been a little bit spradic in the last couple of years, and it may be a little bit archaic to those used to GNOME or KDE interfaces. It is IMHO the best looking X Window application that doesn't rely on a true toolkit. Check it out at:
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/rose.html
There was talk of a new Rosegarden using the GNOME framework, but it hasn't progressed beyond the conceptual stage yet.
Slashdot Mirror
So it appears you didn't follow the link either...
Full Quote:
" We are happy to announce that the next major version of the Jazz++ midi sequencer will be distributed under an Open Source license. This applies to versions for both Linux and Windows platforms. We expect to release this software by medio february 2000.
Among the news in version 4.x will be an ALSA driver for Linux and enhancements on the GUI side (including a GTK+ version for Linux).
Open Source not only means that the software is free to use, it also gives the users freedom to enhance the software and correct bugs. In general this leads to a better product and a dedicated user community. We sincerely hope this will happen also to Jazz++ and that all users will benifit from this change of license terms.
We give this information some time in advance to give new Jazz++ users a chance to decide whether to wait for the Open Source release. It will of course be possible to buy licenses for version 3.x up to the time of the new release in order to be able to use the current version. There will however be no refund of licenses bought in this period.
JAZZ++ is a full featured, audio capable midi sequencer for Windows and Linux. JAZZ++ offers a lot of functions normally only found in expensive sequencer software, and is used by professionals and hobby musicians all over the world. For further information, see http://www.jazzware.com
Slashdot lags seven days behind the initial announcement, duh.
It could definetly open some doors. I am an amateur musician ( or nowadays even less than that since work gets the major part of time ). Jazz(sequencer) provided me the last promise to switch totally from windows to Linux about 3 years ago. To be honest I missed Cakewalk a lot and had difficulties with my midi-keyboard and ancient awe32, but was so impressed with other Linux goodies that I didn't bother to go back to even dual-booting. I am pianokeyboard-challenged :) and jazz offers some ways to overcome this, but it still hasn't got a decent score-editor like Cakewalk has. Maybe it could get coded in it by someone now... I remember Harmony-browser related stuff is exteremely fun in jazz(sequencer). You can just make some chord progression and play something with extreme feeling and lesser accuracy over it, quantize time and harmonics, correct a few dull notes, and you actually have some quite nice "jazzy" "music".
I have emailed Echo Corp. for info in Linux support. No go :-(
I did read somwhere that the next version of BeOS will have support for the ladies (Layla, Gina & Darla).
The day something like Cakewalk Pro Audio is available for Linux, win98 will be history!
If Cakewalk had a Linux & win version for the same price, I would gladly buy the Linux version.
murheeny horo nenoror bork bork bork
You want a quality alternative to Windows look at BE OS. Soon Emagic will port their state of the art stuff to BE. I am sure for a lot of ppl Jazz might be enough, but for most amature, semi pro, and pro ppl out there nothing compares to Emagic Logic Audio or Cubase VST. Its great that Apples stranglehold on is being broken, and prices are being forced down.
If the above statements are true then again Slashdot has jumped on the train way way to soon. I wish that the Slashdot staff, who have been an excellent source for news in the past would try to excerice a bit more journalistic professionalism, instead of posting everything that fits their ideals or hopes. First they post 3 false stories about China. Proving that they dont learn from their mistakes at all. And now this. I fear that more of the stories they post would not stand up too well either. This is sad. It might have to do with Slashdot having gone corporate a few months ago. Big bucks, Big stocks etc have changed the mindset and the professionalism of this site. Its time to find a new place to be, a new site and a new bunch of ppl. Viva Quality Viva Independence
preach on, brother coward!
where does he fit in?
Anyway, Jizz++ only requires you to find the topless Spice Girls picture. Hint - you have to follow the link to "Read Spice Bitch's dirty emails" and follow the links to the end. It's worth it when you get there!
speaking of which.. let me take a moment to expound upon the many-faceted world of pork. mmm mmm good!
Jazz was open source before, then the author got greedy. So he made Jazz++, which was closed.
How do we know he won't leech off of open source help again?
What is the best Midi software BTW?
Yep, I somehow think people who want to buy a professional MIDI & audio sequencer will go for Cubase VST or Logic Audio or something. The bad part is that they run on a Mac or Windows, not Linux as of yet anyway.
I would like to see more open sourced quality music programs for Linux. TerminatorX seems cool, and you can actually do stuff with it even now. However, IMO it needs stereo sample support, some sort of sequencable triggering and a modular effects architechture (a plug-in kind or something) to really progress toward hitting the jackpot.
Just my 0.01 euros...
As for the video editor, Broadcast 2000 will be released soon.
Motu MTPAV driver (parallel port) for ALSA is underway. I already have multiport stuff working, the next steps are cleanup and ADAT/SMPTE synch, etc.. keep checking www.alsa-project.org Michael T. Mayers (h) tweakoz@pacbell.net (w) tweak@osirisstudios.com
Yes, the new version (4.0) will be open source. That link you gave is the OLD VERSION (3.2) license, which does not apply for the v4.0.
Did you even bother to read their goddamn web page?! It says the whole deal in their front page. Sheesh.
Actually the main thing musicians need is midi input and this always seems to be an afterthought. Score composition is wholly inadequate for midi puposes and how are you supposed to deal with sysex messages with score composition. Most musicians want to be able to express themselves through the keyboard or other other midi input devices. You can then use the editors - score, piano roll, controllers for compositon. Get all these features into the sequencer and then we linux users can really start competing with the others.
Because thier own rules at http://www.jazzware.com/doc/html/jazz116.html#topi c82 state that you cannot modify the program unless you buy an decrytion key, but IF you buy a decrytion key you can do anything you want to with their product, EXCEPT DISTRIBUTE THE decryted data it is NOT going to be an open source product.
It will either have two source trees : a Crippleware teaser demo and a "pro" demo. Or it will be their same lackluster swill they hawk now, but with a trendy new press release and "OpenSource" obfuscation game the world has rarely seen before.
I bet they probably will not be going free unrestricted BSD, nor the slightly closed GPV but with a wierd thing that will have hypocritical restrictions.
THIS COMPANY is merely trying to get hype and free interest in their mediocre MIDI stuff.
They are trying to confuse people between Open Source and Open Sound System (OSS , such as http://www.linux.org.uk/OSS/ )
Maybe i'm just paranoid.
I could be wrong, but I am a bitter man tired of being tricked all the time by false press releases that dont coincide with revelations of FTP sites containing all rumored goodies. Or the Lame Mozilla slop that the USA national press actually thought would contain Navigator 4 source, or Java/Javascript, or SSL, or 68040 support.
If this company wants to impress me, maybe they would work on contributing free Open source to http://www.alsa-project.org/ to give Linux users all the USB sound technologies that Mac users are starting to get to enjoy.
Unfortunately none of these are even usable tools for anything serious. (What we're talking about here is MIDI+Digital audio sequencing, specifically, and I would like to see video editing in here to.) These tools may be fine for doing some simple tunes through your SoundBlaster, but unfortunately they don't help much if you're trying to manage a studio with 128+-channels, lots of instruments, and other hardware.
A couple examples of this are how Brahms insists upon using General MIDI names instead of program/bank numbers. GM is not acceptable. It also seems to crash a lot. Both of these will hopefully be fixed - but both currently make it not a solution.
Beast is also not a tool for a studio.
Rosegarden unfortunately seemed extremely limited, and very willing to crash, last time I checked it out as well. (It may have insisted on GM as well, I honestly forget. It's also not being maintained, which is unfortunate, since it really does have a good start.) I will download and try it again.
These all do your standard linear sequencing, too. Try playing with KeyKit sometime. It took me three or four tries to get "into" it, but I think it's probably one of the most powerful, cool things I've seen for sequencing yet. It is very quirky though, and the license prevents me from taking it an reimplementing it using some other toolkit.
BTW, I've been a violinist for the past 17 years or so, so I read music as well. Sometimes the piano roll editor is more applicable to certain types of music, though, where you're not really working with notes and chords (such as ambient techno). Plus, effective controller use from a score view is near impossible, because you don't have a true view of notes over time. This means you have to switch to a piano roll at least some of the time, or have some pretty incredible AI to do it automatically.
But then, I'd not want to play (or write) a sonata from a piano roll printout. :)
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
What I, as a musician/arranger, want to see is something like Finale. Anyone who's used the "speedy entry" feature knows what I'm talking about. I don't realy need software that can transcribe my playing real-time (though that would be nice), but I do need something that can grab a sample from the MIDI port and stick it on a staff.
Just as important is hardware support. I've got a SoundBlaster 16 with a crappy MIDI port. The thing doesn't work at all. So I went and got a parallel port MIDI interface that works like a charm under Windows. The problem is, there are no Linux drivers. I offered to develop some for the company, but they would not release specs. I can't imagine that this is a difficult driver to write or that the hardware configuration of the interface is so radically innovative that the company (MIDIMan) can't release its top-secret information.
I'd like to see some of these sound applications support MIDI input and some of the hardware companies actually giving a damn about their customers.
Can anyone help me? :)
--
The "development" page on their website is dated 1998. The project seems unmaintained, they haven't had any releases for over a year.
What sort of hardware support is available under Linux. Can I use, say, a Layla or a Gina by Echo under it? I would love to go full bore into home recording. What about sample editing?
Logic ... merely enables one to be wrong with authority. -- Doctor Who
Howabout those people who would pay for it anyway, because they're smart enough to realize that free speech != free beer, and good code is worth paying for, whether its source is available of not?
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
I don't agree that Logic, Cubase, Cakewalk, and other "professional quality" commercial sequencers actually suit the needs of their target users. I am in the target audience, have tried everything on the market, and find all of them to be very lacking.
The good news is that there are a whole crop of new sequencer projects coming from the open source community. In approximate order of vintage, these are Rosegarden, Jazz, Cantor, Gseq, Brahms (aka KooBase), Melys, and Muse. The bad news is that most of these are so busy trying to be clones of the leading commercial ones that they don't have any groundbreaking features of their own.
My own sequencer project "PEGS" is a long way from being ready for users. However, it is based on a very different premise from the leading commercial sequencers, and thus will be able to fill a unique, useful niche of its own when it's finally ready.
-- Div.
But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
Was Firefrorefiddle, the Fiend of the Fell.
Wave editor, cut/copy/paste/fade/reverse/etc, n-undo backout edit support, sample loop previewing, freehand wave painting, zero cross detection, metronomic bar/beat and SMPTE frame selection editing.
Full tape spooling with location memories, SMPTE counters. Up to 16 IO channels (8 Stereo devs), with IO noise reduction processing, audio data compression to disk, audio metronome, micro-adjustable speed, punch in/out. TCL/TK 8.0 based "drag and drop" user interface. MultiProcessing/shared memory mix engine.
Kernel requires SYSV_IPC, OSS/Linux 3.9.2m/k2.0.35 advised for full duplex.
Does anyone know if there is any midi integration into the audio direct to disk functionality? I had a quick scan, but couldn't find any immediate information on the official web site.
The only Good System is a Sound System
- List of commercial software
- List of freeware
- Apparently there is more stuff at http://www.be.com/beware but their web server doesn't feel too responsive.
Can't seem to find any confirmed drivers for the Mark of the Unicorn hardware as yet, but various rumours seem to be floating about concerning imminent support...The only Good System is a Sound System
I can't wait for the day that I can do everything I need to, music-wise, on Linux. Jazz++ has all the features of expensive high-end sound software? If Cakewalk Home Studio is considered high-end, then sure.
This is where Linux sure could use some more hardware support. I'm currently using Cakewalk Pro Audio in Winderz, and here's why:
1) Native soundfont support! Maybe someday Linux will have soundfont support with the SBLive. I load up to 64MB worth of soundfont banks into memory, 32MB of which can be used at any given time by the Live card. GM/XG doesn't do it for me. CL has good OS driver support now, so maybe it won't be long.
2) Multiple soundcard support? Maybe Linux does this, but if it does, the current version of Jazz++ doesn't (didn't see a feature list for v4 on the site). I've got an SBLive and a Turtle Beach Pinnacle, which is hooked up to my DAT for digital transfers. They get along surprisingly well under Win98.
3) Cakewalk has a very nice built-in patch manager, with name search. It's a good thing, too, because my wavestation has 500+ ROM patches that I'd hate to have to enter the names for (that's a Cakewalk feature, most studio software under windows or mac does something similar).
4) Linux has nearly non-existent support for external MIDI I/O ports. I'm using the joystick ports on both my soundcards (Wavestation SR and Proteus MPS on external interfaces). External MIDI support may be there on the Pinnacle but it's not on the current Live drivers last time I checked. And what about real multiport midi interfaces like MOTU?
5) I surely don't have what I consider high-end hardware, but no MIDI sequencer can be called "professional" if it doesn't have support for digital mixers, multi-port digital I/O cards (Like Event Layla, etc), ADAT, etc. However, if your job is strictly to create GM MIDI sequences, then Jazz++ under Linux may fit the bill just fine (especially if v4 is free as in beer). The problem is that there's just not much need for GM sequences anymore.
The way I see it, Linux multimedia support is where Win3.11 was back when the Mac was the multimedia king, and there wasn't any REAL studio software for Windows. I'll give it some time-- I like Cakewalk P/A because I know it inside and out, and if the day eventually comes when Cakewalk (or Cubase) runs natively under Linux, supporting all my hardware, that will be a very happy day. In the meantime, I gotta stick with what works.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Slashdot lags seven days behind the initial announcement, duh.
Hehheh... I sent it in to them the day that mailing went out, but I guess they didn't like my wording or somethign because it was rejected =)
Addlepated - punk & metal
--
WorldServe Consulting
Though music is still a niche industry when it comes to software and hardware manufacturers, I just wish that some companies would belly up to the bar and commit to Linux. I recently begged/pleaded/sucked up to Midiman to provide I/O register specs for one of their older, but more pro-oriented, audio cards: I could not seem to convince anyone that it was in everyone's interest to provide such info, which may eventually build a bigger market for their products. I need a new multi-MIDI interface, but I'm not gonna buy one until I see that it is supported by Linux. Perhaps if people hear this from enough of us, they might get the hint.
I left my sig in my other pants.
I'm a musician, and used to ($500) cubase, only thing is with the crappy steinberg company, they are a little bit slow in developing also I don't seem to have another choice than windows with my pc for my sequencing. So I remind myself to save a lot in hope the computer doesn't reset.. I think this might help people to switch to a more stable environment (excuse me: stable) and it'll help to develope new sequencer-apps aswell, this is a good step forward and I'd like to enjoy the future fruits of this.
Regards,
Sarin
In the short term, I suggest people stop getting excited just because a company announces releasing something "open source". We should wait until the sources and the license are available for everybody to look at.
In the long term, I think we need to replace the term "open source" with something more self-descriptive.
We already have a "more self-descriptive" term - free software. There would be less of this ambiguity if we all just called a spade a spade. As you rightly point out Open source software is not necessarily the same as free (speech not beer) software.
I think a return to out "roots" is long overdue.
To answer some frustrations that several posters had...
** Soundcard Support **
In order to find out what support exists for high-end audio cards, look at what OSS and ALSA support. For example, OSS has commercial support for several high-end cards...
It's the same situation that the Linux community encountered with high-end graphics cards over the last few years. Manufacturers refused to release information for developers to write drivers. Some released their own proprietary drivers.
Please don't blame the developers. Also make sure to email your demands to the soundcard manufacturers!
** Lack of professional sequencer software **
Jazzware releasing their source code as Open Source should be viewed as Good Thing (TM). Let's hope this builds momentum towards an Open Source, professional-level MIDI sequencer. (Note: MOD trackers are different animals.)
I'm excited about the ALSA sequencer API. AFAIK, the OSS MIDI API only supports only one connection at a time to the MIDI port and doesn't use a timer. Having a better API should help. Does anyone know if the ALSA sequencer API code is ready for prime time yet?
On the other hand, you could always email requests to your favorite sequencer application company like Steinberg or Cakewalk...
I have used version 3 and I must say that they are in bad need of some Open Source help. You can get better performance from some of the cheaper and/or free packages out there.
Does saying 'Open Source' (with capital letters) always mean a license compatible to the Open Source Definition? Wouldn't it be more accurate to talk about OSI Certified licenses? (the article talks about 'Open Source', but I was just wondering..)
I read on the opensource.org website's FAQ the following:
While there is agreement on the broad term `open source' as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. We strongly encourage everyone who cares about open software to use the term only to describe licenses that conform to the OSD, or software distributed under such licenses; but since the term has passed into more general use, we also encourage people to refer to the ``OSI Certified'' mark, which has precision and legal force in identifying software distributed under licenses that are known to meet the OSD requirements.
Finally. The one thing Linux needs and is severely lacking is good multimedia studio software. Correction. Any multimedia studio software. The only projects are not really in active development from what I can tell, except Melys, and that's fairly new. KeyKit is pretty cool, although a bit ugly by modern standards, but it has a few problems, especially the license.
As you can see from general searching and The Linux Sound and MIDI page, there isn't much else going on. I don't even see an attempt at a nonlinear video editor.
Also there are some unfortunate driver issues. I requested specs for the Motu MTP AV after purchasing one, only to get a reply that the information wasn't available to the public... so I can't write a driver, and am forced to use it like a cheap MIDI switch. (I'm going to continue to bug them, of course. It would benefit them and the Linux community to at least have open drivers. They sell more, we get software support and better, more capable studios.)
This really is a step in the right direction for the Jazz people, though, since they don't have a lot of regular updates. Hopefully they will use a Free(tm) license like the GPL. I applaud them in their decision, though, this is something I've been hoping for for awhile. Thanks guys!
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
From the website: "We give this information some time in advance to give new Jazz++ users a chance to decide whether to wait for the Open Source release. It will of course be possible to buy licenses for version 3.x up to the time of the new release in order to be able to use the current version. There will however be no refund of licenses bought in this period."
Sounds as though they're being pretty upfront with potential (paying) customers about the situtation, which is good enough for me. (Not that I matter in the slightest, you understand)
...j
The original authors of Rosegarden have recently issued a patched up release that fixes a number of bugs. Personally I haven't had it crash on me, but I do agree that aRts/Brahms is a bit buggy at present. There again, I stopped using Cubase because Steinberg seem more interested in adding new features than sorting stablility issues. Thank god for the decent hardware sequencer in my W-30!
Chris Wareham
I'm surprised theres's been so many posts already without any mention of Rosegarden
When i first started playing around with midi on Linux, the first program i found was Jazz++. It's got plenty of features if you like editing music on what looks and feels like a piano roll.
Unfortunately, I've been cursed with the knowledge of how to read music, so the piano roll feels clumsy.
Rosegarden is GPL'd and includes a well developed notation editor, it's own scripting language for the technically inclined, and will even help you print sheet music.
It's known to run on Linux, FreeBSD, Irix, and even OpenVMS. And yes, it's completely free and open source.
Jazz++ does have some nice features, like GS compatibility, but for my purposes it would be incredibly obtuse to use for anything other than final touch-ups to the score.
What i need, and what i suspect most musicians prefer, is a midi sequencer with a notation editor - and there's already a pretty good one out there with a GPL license.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Unfortunately, we seem to be some distance away from being able to replace the rather awesome digital audio software running on the main machine under Win98. This is German-made software the name of which escapes me at the moment. Suffice to say that the Win98 drives are not going to get fdisked until Linux can do *everything* the Win98 machine can. (Except crash "once a week" of course.)
So, please help me, what have we got *now* that can be evaluated, and falls into the professional digital audio category? What's coming down the pipe?
Software is needed to:
do 12 + tracks of real time mixing/filtering/other processing at 96 khz, 24 bits/sample quad
support a-d input 24 bits/sample stereo interfaced through a high-end card I forget the name of (hey, I wasn't expecting the issue to come up today, I'm just the mechanic, ok?)
do all kinds of other neat, wizbang digital studio stuff
:-o
I apologize for the imprecise definition of the problem, but please, help me anyway. Goodness me, if we don't liberate this machine soon it could get sucked into the Win2000 black hole.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Who's going to buy it? Of those who really have to have it right now, who's going to buy it and not throughly resent it?
People who need it and don't think the price is too high. People who want to wait can do that too: it's a free world, at least as far as that goes. This is nothing but good for all concerned.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Enter "open source". Good attempt. Avoids abiguity over the pricing issue. Opens up a different can of worms (as this thread has pointed out).
We need a new term.
Or maybe we need to continue playing by the business world's rules. That's what true "open" licenses do. They use the license tool business usually use to lock away code to open it up (no jihad on licenses, please). The next logical step is to define what this software is (ie: Open Source) and protect that definition with legal tools. Be that trademark or what have you.
I know, I know... its nasty work. Its something we'd rather not soil or ideology with. But we either do it or allow profiteers to muddy the waters for their own gain.
http://beast.gtk.org, also heard good things about SLab but haven't used it myself.
The only Good System is a Sound System
They hope to release Version 4.0 as Open Source by mid-Feb, but until then they're still charging for Version 3 just as before.
Who's going to buy it? Of those who really have to have it right now, who's going to buy it and not throughly resent it? When Netscape announced the open sourcing of Netscape 5, they had the sense to make Version 4 gratis at the same time.
I'm not in the audience for this software anyway, it just seems a curious decision...
--
Xenu loves you!
The "official" Open Source Definition tries to define "open source" more tightly. But since the term isn't trademarked and since it has a different common sense meaning, it fails. Furthermore, even the "Open Source Definition" has some holes in it.
In the short term, I suggest people stop getting excited just because a company announces releasing something "open source". We should wait until the sources and the license are available for everybody to look at.
In the long term, I think we need to replace the term "open source" with something more self-descriptive.
There's aRts and Brahms for KDE which provide a virtual synthesiser and sequencer respectively. There is even talk of adding direct to disk recording (think Cubase VST) as aRts provides the means to do this. The URL's are:
a hms/
http://www.arts-project.org/
http://lienhard.desy.de/mackag/homepages/jan/Br
For the GNOME fans among us, there is Beast which has been in devlopment for a long time but only recently saw the light of day. This gives similar functionality as aRts/Brahms. It's URL is:
http://beats.gtk.org/
Also check out news.gnome.org for the official announcement of a Beast snapshot.
There is also a venerable package called Rosegarden. Development has been a little bit spradic in the last couple of years, and it may be a little bit archaic to those used to GNOME or KDE interfaces. It is IMHO the best looking X Window application that doesn't rely on a true toolkit. Check it out at:
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/rose.html
There was talk of a new Rosegarden using the GNOME framework, but it hasn't progressed beyond the conceptual stage yet.
Chris Wareham