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Matrox to fund DRI Development
SuperN wrote in to let us know that Matrox will be contracting Precision Insight to develop a DRI driver for the G400 and G200 chipsets, for use in XFree86. There's more information available, as well as a press release. Once Precision Insight is finished developing the driver, the source is to be released with the rest of XFree86, so it looks to be good vibes all around.
I have a G200 and have been keeping an eye on what opinions are. In the Windows world, I believe that at very low resolutions (680x480) the TNT2 is somewhat faster than the G400, but at higher resolutions the G400 is much faster. The Linux drivers could change things (since there are now lots of G200/G400 driver efforts going, I don't know what to compare) The G400 is supposed to have somewhat better image quality, and supports environmental bump mapping, which no Linux games use right now, but looks incredible in games that use it in Windows.
My G200 does very well 2d-wise...I'm happy with it. I tried the glx 3d drivers quite a while back (probably faster now)...they still have a good ways to go, as the card runs somewhat slower than it does in WinNT, but I was playing q3test against other people in my dorm happily on a PII266. Still, I could feel the slowdown relative to the Windows drivers at the time, and stuck to playing Q3test in Windows.
The G200 is still relatively slow 3d wise (compared to cards a few generations down the road like the G400 and the TNT2), and I'd recommend against it if you're looking for a 3d gaming card for Linux. We'll see what improved drivers do.
Given that a G400MAX is the fastest 3D card under Linux at the moment (going by GLX performance), this is great news. Even NVidia's latest GeForce GLX drivers don't compare on a GeForce SDR to the G400. I expected to see the GeForce dominate once the NVidia drivers were out, but on a P3 500 the G400MAX was over twice as fast[1] as a GeForce SDR on an Athlon 600 at quake3 (something like 55 fps for the G400, 25 for the Geforce).
Matrox is further increasing their lead in linux with moves like this. Once DualHead is in place and XFree86 4.0 with DRI support is out, I can't see any other company providing drivers as reliable or as fast for a long time. It takes time to ramp up expertise on a new platform, and by using Open Source/GLX drivers, Matrox will almost certainly be a step ahead for a long time to come.
[1] - Now in Windows the G400MAX doesn't beat the GeForce, which shows the GeForce Linux drivers are severely limited. With time this will improve, assuming NVidia keeps up with their pledge to support XFree86 and Linux and releases specs so that other developers can contribute in meaningful ways.
Now, the only big problem is that Matrox doesn't seem to be as well-favored in the supply chains as they used to be, which is a matter well outside the scope of the control of Linux folk...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Hopefully there's some information sharing between Matrox, PI, and LNUX on this so that all their efforts can continue to prove useful.
It would be unfortunate if there was a fragmentation of efforts.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
And I do it too! EISA? eeeeesa!
But then again, whenever I see DOS, I pronounce it to myself as D-O-S, not daus. I have to force myself to pronounce it that way so people would not confuse it with the acronym for Denial-Of-Service, which, in a twisted way is what DOS is as an operating system.
Acronyms. I believe self learned nerds that don't get out (such as myself) will always get these wrong and raise eyebrows whenever they meet.
Th G400's are the first really 3d accelerated cards matrox released. The 400's are fairly speedy and from eyeballing a friend's it looks quite comparable to a TNT2 but with prettier graphics.
The downside is their Win drivers aren't full OGL; it's a mini-ICD that's HEAVILY optimized for Quake. Performance isn't bad with other games in D3D, but it is fairly pricey compared to a TNT2; G400's run about $250. But it's got nifty stuff like bump-mapping that make the world just downright gorgeous when it's supported.
Hopefully the DRI driver will be full OGL+bump mapping and that OGL will dribble back to Windows. Hmmm, opensource Linux improving windows. Wasn't this the point?
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
What's really bad is when they start pronouncing the acronyms like they were words.
Like the ISA bus. I've been hearing people, even people who work in the industry, referring to it as "eye-sah". How lazy is that? First you're too lazy to pronounce the term, so you shorten it. Then you get too lazy to even just pronounced the letters of the acronym, so you phoneticize it.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Well, erm... I've always seen Matrox as the company with the best driver support for Windows (and it works good under Linux as well). I've never had a problem with their drivers. Ever. I've just downloaded the latest unified driver and watched things fly (since my original Millennium I -- I still have it). When I added another Matrox board, I didn't even have to update the drivers. I don't see your problem...
/* Steinar */
(This comment is of course GPLed.)
You can get a composite->RF converter at radio shack for about $25
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you have to wonder who will use it
I have a monitor and a TV for the project I'm working on at work (Sony) running off a G400
The best feature is being able have a DVD playing in the background then watch it on TV...
Now if only I could get DirectX/OpenGL under Win2k to stop hanging the system, I'd be set. Quake 3 on a 32" widescreen. Mmmmm.
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
You know I've been a big fan of nvidia for a long time and had pretty much relegated to buying only nvidia hardware (I've never been a 3dfx fan especially after the only card I've ever bought was a lame ass banshee), but after watching matrox make contribution after contribution to Xfree in the form of open specs and financial funding, I have a feeling I should reward them with my business since they have obviouly had a clue for quite sometime. ;)
Can someone who has been a long time user of the G series and maybe even someone who has a G400 give me some details on how it compares to a tnt2? I know there are benchmarks and what not out there but I honestly prefere the personal opinion to the official one
Specifically in games like q3 and what not. How well do they handle OpenGL?
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
First the "yes". I found that page already, but thanks for pointing it out anyway. Trouble is, they are only at version 0.0.7 and the page isn't very clear on what that means.
As for the "but". Sure, the best supported cards are the BT848/878-based ones. But I can't find any cards based on this chipset that have video in AND out (WinTV-D is apparently out only...). Know of any?
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This explains a lot. I guess I better keep looking for a fully supported card OR get the G200-TV and learn how to create Linux drivers...
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Now, can someone answer this question: Is the G200-TV supported for video capture/output? Under Video4Linux or elsewhere? If so, this is the card for me (I don't need high-performance, I just need s-video in AND out under Linux).
When I buy it, I intend to mention that their support of Linux is the reason I chose them. Be sure you do the same.
---
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
In my experience, the dubious honor of worst Windows drivers goes to ATI. They have alway s had poor 2d AND 3d drivers (remember when Gateway quit using them ~5 years ago? There was a reason.)
A lot of the reason for this is the Matrox driver project - a bunch of guys are writing good drivers for Matrox. Don't be too hasty in chalking this one up to Matrox...there are other (open) sources at work.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Well, I got a 15" with my system in 1995, and have bought a 21" early last year... all 3 systems run through a Cybex KVM box to the 21, but technically I've got two... no wait - there's an Epson XT with monitor in the basement of my old house... right next to the C64 and 128 with their old monitor... can't really count the XT or Commodore monitors, but once my finacee moves in, there's another 15" monitor...
At home my brother and dad each have a system with a monitor, my grandfather has 2 systems, two monitors.
Hell, my family averages well over the 50% line...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
odd - I pronounce DOS "dahs" (or daus? "rhymes with house - maybe from the german class I took), but I refer to D-O-S (dee oh ess) attacks. But then again, it doesn't really matter too much.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
If I understand the release correctly, they will use that code as a base, and modify it from the utah glx to the DRI glx system.
"Building on the fast, stable 2D driver and the current GLX driver already written by the Linux community, Precision Insight will integrate support for 3D performance and features using the company-authored DRI architecture."
Don't y'all read the articles?
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
I have two SS7 DFI MVBP3 p5v3c's, and haven't had a lick of trouble with them. AGP 2X mode works nicely as well.
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Yeah, they're approximatly the same as the PII. Personally, I'd take a higher clock K6-2 over a 400 K6-3. The 3's run about 7% faster than the 2's at the same clock, but you can buy a much faster K6-2 for the same price. Plus, theres the ceiling; AMD has the K6-2 550 out on the market, but the K6-3 line is stuck at 450.
You want to check out the prices of DRAM before you 'yippee!'. These boards don't have any 72-pin SIMM slots. Buy the PC100 stuff, because the board runs much better with a 100mHz DRAM clock.
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Heres some spec/price links. The price is about dead-on for retail market.
Baby AT w/2M cache
Baby AT w/1M cache
DFI also makes a identical board in ATX. As for the CPU, you should be able to pick up a retail-box K6-2 500 for about $100. (the 400 can be had for about $50).
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DFI Super Socket 7. They're solid, and most of the current revs will clock a K6-2/3 to 600, so you've got quite a bit of expandability. Plus, they're inexpensive, feature 2X AGP, conveniently placed DIP switches, etc. Downside is you'll need DIMMS, as there are no SIMM slots.
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Hanging off my win98 box at home I've got one good 15" and two shite 14" monitors one either side of the big one. works great, just wish I could get it to work under linux.
-- You ain't seen me, right?
Cool though the multi-head capabilities are, you have to wonder who will use it[...]
I'd love to have that; imagine having my usual comfortable bearded, long-haired head with glasses and all at work, then attach a Mel Gibson lookalike unit when going out for the night! Toothache? No problem! Just rent a spare head from your dentist while your own unit is in for repairs! Ahhh, the future is truly ours!
Sorry.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
All the sources and all the specs are available for the 3dfx cards as you mentioned. The GLX list does have a lot of people on it, but in reality only about a half dozen are probably active developers.
I'm the primary author for the 3dfx drivers. I'd love to have more people help with them. That's why we setup dri.sourceforge.net. That's got the current 3dfx drivers, and will include all the drivers from Precision Insight including the Matrox and ATI drivers.
- |Daryll
DRI is only for 3D support.
For video capture under Linux using The Marvel or Rainbow Runner G, go to here. The drivers are still in an unstable "alpha" state, but work well enough to use and start hacking on.
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Knowing that Matrox is committed to having open source drivers for their stuff means that I can buy with confidence. I've been telling my parents (who've never touched Linux) for years that they should buy hardware that is supported by open source. It is the surest indicator that it will be widely supported regardless of which software they run.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Someone offered to trade me his dual head G400 for my Voodoo3 3000. Even though it meant pretty much giving up quake3 (sure, I could still play, but it would be at about half the speed, which would be intolerable for me) I decided to go ahead with the deal because I knew that even though 3dfx does make decent linux drivers, I felt that Matrox's method, "open the specs and let the hacking begin" was more in line with my beliefs.
I'm happy to see that Matrox is not only meeting my expectations, but pleasantly surpassing them by going the extra mile to make sure their hardware is supported in linux. I'll make sure Matrox gets my money next time I actually buy a video card.
Jeremy
Looking for a Python IRC bot?
Matrox has done a great 180. They used to have the worst driver support in the industry, even under Windows. Now they're working hard, and they're putting out good Linux support. I think the G200/G400 is the fastest 2d card you can get for XFree86, and their 3d support is getting better fast.
Remember, people. When you buy the videocard, SEND IN THOSE PRODUCT REGISTRATION CARDS! Mark Linux. It's how they know what to support!
People are working on support for TV-Out. Unfortunately this is one of the only portions of Matrox's graphics system they did not make the specs available for.
The problem is, everyone who puts TV-Out technology on their boards signs a contract with Macrovision, Inc (they are the ones who implement the copy protection that prevents you from copying vhs tapes), and the contract forbids specs from being released (because people could then easily override the insecure Macrovision protection and allow vhs tapes to be copied).
There are rumors that Matrox intends to support TV-Out via a binary-only module, but they are only rumors. There hasnt been any official info from Matrox regarding TV-Out on Linux.
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Is it just me, or do more people get the feeling that the magic 'carmack touch' was applied here?
In the matroxuser.com sniplet it sums up the history of the matrox & linux community relationship, from the first matrox driver in 1992, upto the GLX project, where it -clearly- states the nature and development of carmack's role in the GLX project. And if you would expand this history line with 'the present' it would be this order:
Start of GLX
Carmack messing with GLX
Matrox Funding GLX development.
Now doesnt that make a great coinsidence? Specialy considering the weight carmack's word usualy carries in the OpenGL / Games scene, it wouldnt supprise me to find that he was the final drop for matrox to go ahead.
If this all is true? donno, but if so, kuddles to u carmack for helping this to happen!
-- Chris Chabot
"I dont suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it!"
Now, if Matrox would only release the warp specifications so that we could make secure direct rendering without a performance hit.
Some background:
The G200 and G400 has the ability to read and write to buffers in primary memory. This is a great feature, but if misused you can easily crash your computer or with a little more work do things like read and write kernel memory. Therefore we only allow root to do direct rendering in Utah GLX.
Thanks to Matrox' donation of the warp microcode we can now send a list of vertices to the card instead of having to manually calculating things like delta x and delta y values. (This is usually called triangle setup.) This was a great performance boast and also a key to more security since you cannot embed register writes in such a list of vertices.
Still, every time you want to change the current texture or change your current blending mode you will need to write to a register. And since the G200/G400 doesn't distinguish between a register write to change your blending mode and a register write that initiates a blit that will zero out the first 6 MB of framebuffer memory you a normal user cannot be allowed to write such data directly to the card. [1]
You can work around this by sending a buffer with some sort of bytecode to the kernel and let it do some sanity checks on it before sending it to the card. Thankfully the vertex lists cannot contain hidden register writes. [2].
This does not come without a performance penalty though.
What we could do if we had warp specifications is to write microcode that would take a buffer that not only contained vertex data but also information about all mode changes that was safe. Stuff like buffer allocation would still have to be done by the kernel or the X server, but you wouldn't have to do that very often.
I am not totally unreasonable, even though I would love to write some microcode myself I would be satisfied if Matrox provided microcode with this kind of functionality.
Still, this is a problem that will probably disappear in a couple of graphics card generations once multiuser systems is more common.
[1] Actually, the data isn't written directly to the card in any case if you are using DMA to transfer the commands from the host to the card. This is a key to high performance graphics in combination with the G200/G400.
[2] You can upset the card by writing improper values to the vertex list with the current microcode, you shouldn't be able to do more than a DOS attack with it though. The kernel or X server could probably detect this and restore the state of the card if this is tried as well. (I don't know if this is possible, but I think this is the case.)
The decision is even more of a cinch given the excellent quality of their hardware. This is not a situation where you have to choose between the best hardware and the best open source drivers. Matrox has them both. The G400 MAX has the highest output bandwidth of any card of which I am aware, and it produces a nice crisp image on even the biggest monitors. Besides that, it makes a passable 3D accellerator for games.
For me the decision was easy. I traded in my Millenium II for a Millenium G400 MAX last week and I have been very happy since.
-jwb