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China Hits Internet With Secrecy Rules
MetalHead writes "Anyone running a Web site in China may be interested in this story." You should check this out even if you don't run a Chinese site; it's yet another case of a government cracking down on news media.
It's true that parts of the U.S. government have acted in such a manner in the past, and probably will try to do so again. The difference is that U.S. citizens have recourse to the protections provided by the U.S. Constitution and enforced through the judicial system. Granted, this doesn't always work (just ask the Cherokee Indians, or any of the Americans who were interned on the west coast during WWII), but there is the clear understanding that U.S. citizens have certain rights and have an expectation of legal recourse when those rights are violated. In the People's Republic of China, you have no rights except what the Party determines that you have.
In short, in the U.S. we have the rule of law, which may not always be enforced evenly. In China there is rule by fiat of the Party, which guarantees uneven standing under the law. Yes, the U.S. is far from perfect, but I don't think you can compare the full history of both countries (remember, the U.S. has about four times as much) without deciding that China has a much more oppressive government.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
So, no, logic isn't universal. People (especially in totalitarian regimes like China and Cuba) don't always have complete information, and even if they do, prejudices often get in the way. Like the US in this case.
BTW, most Australians who know anything about the issues agree that our censorship policies have been infiltrated by the religious right and Something Should Be Done(TM). Unfortunately, the only thing that can be done is vote out the present Federal Government and that won't happen for another 18 months or so :(
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
> want nothing more than to tear down the
> freedom that we have online Maybe you could be a little bit more ridiculous next time, hmm?
Communist governments (which China, no matter how loudly it claims otherwise, is NOT) have no fear of releasing information to the public, because they know that the public, as good Communists, will not in turn release that information to the world. At the same time, until a worldwide revolution is in place, then Communist governments must keep their cards close to their vests, because they're well aware that not everyone is a good Communist.
You might go so far as to compare the free software movement to a burgeoning Communistic revolution. We, the people who use free software, are encouraged (possibly expected) to contribute to the spread of this mode of software distribution, whether it be by enhancing the kernel, creating new software, integrating old software, porting software from other platforms, running informational websites, evangelizing, and so on and so forth. All the tools and information we need are provided freely to us, so long as we pass these tools and data on to others, also for free, and incorporating any modifications we make. In this way, we spread the revolution across the world, and the Internet is what makes it all possible. We have no fear of our source code falling into capitalist hands (e.g. Microsoft) because we know that it already has and it is powerless to stop our advance - we come with a better way of life, and let capitalism tremble at our footsteps!
You see, we who participate in this glorious software revolution are, after a fashion, Communists. Everything we do is for the enhancement of our community - our State.
Your mistake, my anonymous friend, is in thinking that governments such as the old Soviet Union and China and the Eastern Bloc were Communist. They were not. They were, in fact, Socialist governments, which are sort of a blend of Communism and ordinary, garden-variety totalitarianism. They are a middle point, a semi-secure position to take after the revolution has begun, the communization of the country is in progress - they are a bulwark against the rest of the world while the State waits for the worldwide revolution that Marx, Engels, and Lenin stated *must* come for Communism to succeed.
Sorry 'bout the rant there, but I really dislike having people make such foolish statements about my political beliefs. Oh, that's right, I forgot to tell you - you see, I am a Communist, and proud to be one. We're not about suppression of freedom, not by any stretch of the imagination. We're about the idea that a unified state can best take care of its people if their production is guided and utilized by the state itself, and then returned to them in the form of the things they require to live and thrive. And the Internet, to us, is the best way we've yet seen to encourage the rest of the world to join us in making life better for ALL citizens of the world - not just the wealthy.
Chris Tembreull
Web Developer, NEC Systems, Inc.
My opinions are my own, and nobody else's.
Chris Tembreull
"My karma just ran over your dogma."
Come on folks. This is the same totalitarian regime that led the slaughter of peaceful protesters in Tiananmen(sp?) Square, then refused to let their media mention that anything happened. This is one-and-a-half steps away from the regime that led the Cultural Revolution. These are ruthless dictators, and they will NOT let free speech occur until the only 'free speech' is in their favour.
/. sort of article.
This is not news.[1] This is not a change of policy. This is entirely consistent with the Chinese government's way of doing things.
Something you might want to consider then next time your government talks about 'wonderful foreign trade opportunities with China.'
[1] Which isn't to say that I don't think it should have been posted--it's definitely a
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Henceforth, all moderators will be hired from the Peoples Republic of China. All current moderator points have been revoked. All new moderators will come from this pool of Chinese agents.
Moderation catagories will now be:
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Stealing American Nuclear Secrets +1
Please return to your normal browsing.
Sometimes, you can walk a fine line between two opposing needs. There is a happy medium where each need is satisfied. I believe that there is an "unhappy medium" where neither need is satisfied, and the government is actually at risk of losing the Internet opportunity as well as their own control over their people.
The Internet is not about technology. It's been around since the sixties, and the Web could have been invented in the seventies. The Web is about community; the technology only gives us an opportunity to meet, and that's where the magic starts. Strict control over a portion of the Internet immediately renders that portion useless.
I think that the only chance for the Chinese government to survive in its present form (and, frankly, I'd rather it didn't) would be for it to close off the Internet entirely to its people, and to ignore it as an economic opportunity. I feel that anything less would destablize the Chinese government. The nation would not collapse, China would still exist, but it would have a new form of government.
If the Chinese government allows access but try to control it, they will destroy their own power structure and lose an economic opportunity simultaneously.
--The basis of all love is respect
Jackbooted thugs breaking into a certain Danish home probably indicate much bigger, more threatening players in the big-stakes game of Global Domination.
IMHO, the Chinese mandating secure web sites is probably a good thing. Certainly better than the US, Japan, et al. (Mind you, Japan's attitude to, ummm, certain historical events could be construed as baiting.)
Whilst I can't condone any organisation, be it a private company or a national government, imposing censorship and 1984-style mind control, at least there's some semblance of directness about what they're doing. The film industry seems to much prefer subterfugue, lies, intimidation, threats, and tactics remeniscent of 1940's Germany.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
And how different is this:
The regulations appear to give authorities a powerful instrument of control over the Internet in the name of protecting sensitive government information.
China's definition of state secrets is so broad it can encompass virtually any information not specifically approved for publication.
From this:
The regulations appear to give authorities a powerful instrument of control over the Internet in the name of protecting the children from exposure to indecent material.
The USA's definition of indecent material is so broad it can encompass virtually anything that contains an opinion different from the mainstream, challenges accepted boundaries, or material that 8% of the population might find offensive.
And no, its not that bad yet, but it could be someday soon.
Perhaps a combination of both?
It's really a trade-off, IMO. Chinese people are raised in an environment where their freedoms are restricted "for the good of the state," and thus enjoy a tiny fraction of the crime rate of other countries and relatively happy, quiet lives. Lots (most?) of the population is either content to let the government censor news and information or is oblivious to the fact.
Other (most) countries take a different view, where information is relatively free and people are less encumbered when expressing their views and opinions. At the same time, we are, like you say, taught that excessive government control ("oppression") is quite the evil thing, and how can you argue, since the people teaching us this have access to all the information we need to make a qualified opinion on the matter while those on the other end of the stick don't?
Everyone says China is a corrupt government run by corrupt officials and a corrupt legal system, but you know, there's probably as many facts supporting this as there are supporting the same conclusions about America.
I'm not trying to defend China here or anything, but a lot of these decisions really are based in a person's perception (or, rather, what the media likes to stress) and the way they're brought up.
If I may refer to a Star Trek quote, logic dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Unfortunately, you cannot accurately quantify (for example) a person's need for privacy with one's need for safety. They're two completely incomparable items, and comparisons like this are what makes countries and governments different, and are things most easily influenced by emotion and upbringing.
Meaning no disrespect, you might want to go over your polysci notes again.
"Communism goes hand in hand with Totalitarism" HUH??! Communism (theoretically speaking, i.e. Marxism) is absolutely and utterly at odds with totalitarianism. In fact, democracy was supposed to evolve into communism (through a few steps), and culminate in the dissolution of government. Government by the people, for the people. The problem with communism is that it assumes that if people are equal and happy, avarice, greed, and powerlust will die out. Never going to happen.
You'll notice that I never refered to China as a Communist country in my original post...
Moving on, "They [governments] are not evil, they just have a different method for creating a great country."
...and also...
"Again, I don't agree with their methods but I do know they aren't evil."
While it's true that governments may not be inherently evil, they're also not inherently good, and not necessarily interested in creating a good country. Take the Taliban in Afghanistan, for instance; I can't imagine that they have anything other than their own power/money, and the destruction of anyone they hate in mind. They did _not_ forcibly take control to create a happy, egalitarian society.
As a final point, I'd point out that "evil" is a vague term. Wiping out all hints of cultural impurity (a la the cultural revolution) may not have been an evil goal to those doing it, but to me it is, no matter what.
And regardless of all of this, we still have to look at China's record. No matter what comes out of their mouths, the blood on their hands won't wash off easily.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
No, the Chinese government is more worried about the Internet fostering activism. When each dissenter has to stand up to the government alone, it's easy to frighten everyone into submission. But let people get organized, let the dissenters know they are not alone, and before too long you can't frighten anyone into submission. That's what the Chinese government fears, and that's what it is trying to crack down on with these measures.
-r
1) Always remember that neither China nor the CCP are monolithic. The nature of Chinese/Confucian governance gives bureaucrats a lot more leeway in interpreting the various laws and regulations as they see fit than their counterparts in America or Europe would have. This wide-ranging discretion and power also leads to a fair ammount of corruption, but that's outside the scope of our article today.
2) This announcement is largely about internal politics. One or more members of the conservative wing of the CCP called in a favor, and so this little gem of an announcement appeared. In a few months, it may be forgotten again, or a more restrictive regulation may appear to supplant it. This arbitrary use of the law is very common.
3) In a lot of cases, Chinese law is not as hardcore as CNN or Richard Gere would make it out to be. In most cases, you receive several visits from various people explaining that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Only if you insist as a matter of principle to continue to do whatever is irritating the government will they run their teeth through you. (this does not excuse the restrictions imposed on free speech in the PRC, but serves to explain a little about how it works).
What it means for website operators is very hard to say. Bearing in mind points #1 & 2, it probably means very little. If your organization enjoys a good relationship with your counterparts in the CCP, they are not likely to go out of their way to hassle you unless some impetus to do so is given from above. If they have it out for you, another tool has been added to their already ample box of Ways To Make Unruly Citizens Have a Lousy Day.
The proof will not be in the newspaper article or associated regulations, but in how things are handled afterwards. There's an expression in Chinese: san1 fen1 zhong1 re4 du4 literally: "Hot for three minutes", i.e. someone goes and does a crackdown to score political points, then life goes back to normal.
Take care!
Jeremy
The schools I went to never had such brainwashing. Is the state of education in the US really so bad? Don't answer this, I probably already know the answer.
China & Cuba definatly have bad things going on in their country. The US definatly has good things going on. Also, C&C have good things, and the US has bad things. To say that the things which you consider important are the only important things shows incredible arrogance.
In most of the rest of the world, a government which executes minors, has a huge percentage of it's population in jail, mainly for minor drug offenses, and denies it's sickest citizens health care would be considered inhumane, yet as that is what you are used to in the US you don't consider it "enlightening" to learn this.
The US has a long history of meddling in the affairs of other nations, from the United Fruit Company's affairs in Central America, to Vietnam and more.
This is not to say that only China & the US have governments which abuse their powers. Every government does, from the smallest to the largest.
Open Your eyes, and see what your government does wrong, this is more important to you than what happens on the other side of the planet.
"Authorities are anxious not to smother the Internet, keenly aware that new information technology is key to China's economic future. Yet they fear an information free-flow which could threaten communist control."
Long live the revolution, eh?
Why is it that a corrupt, foul government is overthrown by smart citizens... then the new one designed to smooth the flow of goods to everyone goes and decides that it will be the forever government, instead of a transitional one? So what does it do to cement its power? Why, the very things the original government was over thrown for!
I really with that the people had forced Mao and the rest on the hundred day march to properly get some sort of "we have rights" document signed, ala the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or the US Constitution. Actions like this fly in the face of what Karl Marx wrote about. They also remind me of the actions of the MPAA and RIAA, so who am I to judge?
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
The crime of leaking state secrets has been used to jail journalists and is often invoked against opponents of the Communist Party.
Funnily enough we've seen exactly the same thing here, both in the past during the 30's - 50's when Communism was a little too popular for comfort (we can all afford to be tolerant about it now because it hasn't an ice-cube's chance in hell of making a revival anytime soon!) and more recently with the "nuclear secrets leak" where funnily enough a scientist who just happened to be from China (our big opponent supposedly) was accused of betraying state secrets.
Yes, that's a far cry from having to have /. monitored every day by a special FBI task force *hi guys!*, however, consider the fact that there are STILL twelve documents in the FBI files on the John Lennon investigation which they won't release. I wonder what would be the fate of any web-site that put them up if they got hold of them?
Also, while China is bad and all, We the people are still trading with the buggers, not mention Indonesia, Burma, anywhere else horrible you care to mention.