Slashdot Mirror
Serial ATA and USB 2
An anonymous reader pointed us to an anandtech article that discusses the future of
device attachment. Specifically USB 2:Electric Boogaloo and Serial ATA.
Definitely 2 standards will likely matter a lot in the future.
That Serial ATA stuff looks interesting...
MFM: sucked over two cables
ATA: sucks over a single cable, but much faster of late
Serial ATA?: sucks over a thinner wire, longer and stronger
As far as Serial ATA goes, why reinvent the wheel? Why not just adopt the SSA protocol for drive attachment? If it was widely adopted the price would come down significantly. As far as speed and flexibility, it is already further along that Serial ATA is attempting to be. I guess that since it comes from IBM, the odds of it being adopted elsewhere (despite the published spec) are slim, though.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
fellow karma whores:
in the interest of space conservation and sorting, and so that the rest of the discussion can be devoted solely to discussion of USB 2.0 and Serial ATA themselves, i would like to request that all Firewire-related flaming be posted as a reply to this message.
suggested topics:
-USB 2.0 is a pathetic excuse to destroy Firewire, designed solely to prevent a standard not controlled directly by Intel from gaining importance.
-Firewire/Serial ATA/USB 2.0 is not open enough in the sense that the open source movement would like it to be.
-Firewire is outrageously liscenced and expensive.
-USB 2.0 and Serial ATA will be far more widely used and supported than Firewire.
-Firewire will be far more widely used and supported than USB 2.0 and Serial ATA.
-WH04 D00D 1 \V4N7 4 830\VULF CLU573R 0F 1B00KZ
-[Firewire, Serial ATA, USB 2.0] is far technically superior to [Firewire, Serial ATA, USB 2.0]
-[Firewire, Serial ATA, USB 2.0] is vaporware.
-by the time [if ever] USB 2.0 comes to market, Firewire will already be in its second generation and far superior to the USB 2.0's first generation in every way USB 2.0 defeats Firewire now.
-Firewire is already widely supported.
OK, have fun!
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
I fell out of my chair when I saw that, CT. I've been annoying people for many years with that particular phrase. Just can't let a really bad movie die, I guess. Just like when I see the Tri-Star logo, I always say 'from the makers of Perils of Gwendelyn...' Oh, no, it's raining. Quick, Gwendelyn, take off your shirt!
Dude, WTF are you talking about? You're even wordier than Jon Katz.
Their treatment of USB 2.0 was severely lacking. I wish Apple would drop its firewire tax (if not completely, then at least a few notches) so we could use a technology that was designed for things like this. This is the second time I've linked to this article today, but it's worth a read.
- http://www.mackido.com/Hardware/USB2.html
- http://www.mackido.com/Hardware/USB20.ht ml
It's easier to just link to these articles than just rehash the same old arguments every time USB 2.0 is mentioned. Suffice it to say it'll be more than a day late and a dollar short, but, sadly, it will probably catch on due to Intel's stranglehold on the chip market. Once again, if Apple would ease up on the 1394 tax, we would all be better off (and Apple would have at least one victory against Wintel under its belt). Alas, they will not do that, so tomorrow's iMacs will probably ship with USB 2, 3, and 4, and FireWire 2, 3, and 4 will be quietly brushed under the rug._________________
rooooar
Uhm... please translate into English.
Every last bit of it. It never gets implemented or used though. USB sat on Intel motherboards from the 430HX chipsets and beyond. Never used until MS got off it's ass and put out Win98. And even now, we still see computers shipping with IRQ wasting PS/2 and serial/parallel ports.
If there's one thing I admire Apple for, it's their periphreal design. Even on the OLD Macs there was ADB. Then Apple decided to use USB. And look at the iMac. Or a new G4 for that matter. Pure simplicity for ports on the back.
With things like this Serial ATA and Firewire, you can even eliminate the clutter *inside* the computer. I just hope it finally HAPPENS! Why do I have to pay for all those serial/parallel ports on my machine? If we'd all just *forget* about them the price on USB stuff would go way down.
Where's the ideal PC? No mucking with IRQ hogs, no mucking with old IDE, serial or parallel technology. And when we see it, heres to hoping Linux runs on it.
Suggestion -- if you number the items on the list, it's easier for the "me too!" people. Like, I could say "3, 4, 7, 9, 10!!!" to indicate my support for those items in your list.
Maybe this is the next generation of Slashdot posting... when the answers are so predictable, just number them, then we can all just post/vote for our favorites.
_________________
rooooar
I think we need to see more open communication protocols - life is so much easier. The success of the already open protocols is readily evident - yet there are still closed standards which take considerable effort to reverse engineer. You'd think people would see that the protocols can be strengthened when the are opened up and security problems or whatnot are reaveled - it is easier to fix with a large community of knowledgable users than with a small group. When will we see more of this? We really need to.
-Leo
That standard is IEEE-1394, also known as FireWire or i-Link.
Like Serial ATA, 1394 runs at very high speed over inexpensive cabling consisting of only two pairs of signal lines and one pair for power. The cabling does not impede airflow like parallel ATA cables.
Like Serial ATA, 1394 can be used to transfer data to or from ATA (IDE) interfaces, completely transparently to the host.
Like Serial ATA, 1394 can be (and is) implemented in extremely cheap chips. In fact, there are sub-$5 "tailgate" chips which provide a single-chip 1394-to-ATA adapter. If 1394 was integrated into the drive instead of Parallel ATA, the drive could actually be cheaper than it is now.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 can also be used to connect SCSI devices, digital cameras, digital audio and video, TCP/IP networking, and many other categories of devices. 1394 already appears to be the interface of choice for most upcoming consumer electronic gear.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 is already a recognized standard, and work is already underway to extend it to speeds of up to 3.2 Gbps.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 supports complex topologies: devices with multiple 1394 ports for daisy chaining and hubs. This provides considerable flexibility in how devices are hooked up.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 supports multiple masters on the same bus.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 is available NOW, and is already built into some computers.
UNLIKE Serial ATA, 1394 is already supported by Microsoft Windows, and to some extent, Linux.
So why do we need a new standard?
Part of the problem is probably Intel. Initially they announced that they were a supporter of 1394, and that they would build support for it into all of their chipset. They did this with USB, and now it's hard to buy a PC without USB. But when push came to shove, for some reason they didn't do it. Apparently this is due to their work on "USB 2", which pushes the speed of USB into the same range as 1394, but unfortunately still has most or all of the limitations of USB.
Part of the problem is probably Apple. They made ridiculous royalty demands ($1/port), and scared many vendors away. They've since backed down to much more reasonable numbers, but some of the damage was done.
Part of the problem is probably the ATA committee itself. They may be experiencing "NIH" syndrome, preferring to invent a new standard rather than using an existing one, no matter how suited the existing one is.
Part of the problem is just the standard chicken-and-egg question. If computers don't have 1394 interfaces, why should disk manufacturers build 1394 into disk drives? If disk drives don't have 1394, why should computer manufacturers build 1394 into the computers? Of course, serial ATA may have the same problem, but it may be less pronounced. The very fact that serial ATA is less functional may make it an easier sell from a marketing point of view.
What should be done? IMNSHO, they should scrap the proprietary Serial-ATA interface, and adopt 1394 as the official Serial ATA standard.
As far as USB 2.0 goes, well, I don't have any USB devices yet, so I guess I really don't care at this point.
I'm sure I've said several idiotic things here, so anyone who's more of an expert in these matters, please smack me around a bit.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I have a keyboard, mouse, monitor, nic, and headphones coming from my computer. None of them use any new fancy expensive technology. Is the ordinary user going to have every gadget in the world on his/her computer? Does anyone need 256(?) devices? Who wants to pay more for a usb mouse when it is less supported and more expensive? I don't think I need it and I'm intrested in knowing what kind of people do. Maybe everything will be USB someday and make things simpler, but I think everything is fine how it is. So... can anyone tell me how this will revolutionize computing?
and other fun stuff.
/printer/devices were very scarse until iMac owners needed printers and new mice/keyboards..
http://www.firewireworld.com/
also EVERY digital videocamera uses firewrie. If you want to hook up a DV camera to a computer you got to use firewire.
If its a mac its got firewire (except ibook)
If its a sony vaio its got i link (firewire with a different name)
Some compaqs offer it too.
Odd though, USB
But any new technology should have a chance. If its worse it will fail (this isn't always true, as marketing counts but I digress.)
Apple was charging a $1/port as of Jan 991 5/firewire.html
e wfirewirelincensing.html
http://www.macobserver.com/news/99/january/9901
Then it went to a $0.25/system as of May 99
http://www.macobserver.com/news/99/may/990512/n
How much more do you want it dropped, btw?
Does this mean Intel is charging nothing for it's USB implementations? Or that it's hidden in the costs of their chipsets, CPUs, etc?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Shut up
"However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation."
Unfortunetely, they will not be able to kill firewire. But hopefully these threats will bring down the licensing costs of firewire down. Rambus is dealing with this now (make it cheaper or die).
USB2.0 is a big technical challange, and USB wasn't made for it. The problem will be largely with older usb devices attached to the same bus.
Serial ATA and FC are going to eliminate SCSI. In fact SerialATA doesn't have all the checkpoints to compete with firewire. The only reason it is a threat is that this pushes firewire out of the DeviceBay standard, but that's years away from shipping.
Firewire will still persist for the a/v crowd and that will slip more and more into consumer products. Firewire will quadrople in speed soon, so USB2.0 would still be slow.
Apple et all has lowered the cost to $0.25 per system, as opposed to $1 per port
Firewire licensing
So unless you think $0.25 per system is unreasonable(up the wazoo?), perhaps Firewire *does* rock?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
It's because until iMacs came about, there was no *reason* to use USB; serial/parallel/PS2 all coexisted.
So Intel didn't push USB very much until after Apple did. You'd think Intel would return the favor by supporting Firewire, just to be fair.
I like Firewire. Unfortunately, the PC support is so poor, my next PC may have to be a Mac!(I have a DV camcorder)
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
May just be an iMac running Linux, then...
I mean, about the only thing missing is the Firewire HDs...
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
AFAIK, Firewire is not intended for use with internal devices. (Its internal counterpart is Device Bay, which, unfortunately, looks pretty dead.)
For that matter, Serial ATA is not intended for external devices, so they're really apples and oranges. (No pun intended.)
I, for one, am excited to see somebody is finally addressing the issue of internal connections. Installing a "parallel" ATA drive seems like such a cumbersome process in the era of USB.
MSK
It's an automated insult generator.
Remember: If you FEED the trolls, you get to keep them!
The point of using USB or Firewire is simplicity; only 2 or 3 ports on the back of the PC, maybe the monitor, maybe the keyboard.
Which means, fundamentally, users won't have to figure out cables, converters, passthroughs.
Which means the ordinary user will plug his monitor(maybe) into his USB or Firewire port in the back, and then the keyboard into the monitor, or into the back, if desired, and then the mouse into the keyboard, or the monitor, or whatever. And then plug in the speakers. And the mic. And the modem. And the headphones. And the printer.
All with 2 or 3 ports.
Vs the 8 ports today(2 PS2, 2 USB, 2 parallel, 2 serial)
So just by dropping PS2, parallel, and serial, price goes down.
As does support costs for motherboard design, BIOs, drivers, OSes, and drivers having to deal with all of the above.
Whoever said USB would revolutionize it, anyway? It's an incremental improvement!
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Bandwidth is only limited by the size of your pipe. Now we only have the little problem of encoding the stream and we're all set. Besides, the garden hose interface is already backwards compatible with almost 100% of existing installations, and even works with ancient peripherals. It can also be daisy-chained for near infinite lengths (if you have a good interface) and supports mid-hose taps to create a string of sprinklers.
Most importantly, when you attach your garden hose to a sprinkler you have a great way to keep yourself cool on those really hot days when your air conditioning goes out and you just can't stand the heat from your CPU a moment longer.
marotti.com
How about politics? Apple pushes Firewire, Intel pushes USB?
What does that have to do with the cost?
A firewire board costs $80 because of the costs of the PCI board, the drivers, the support, etc.
Imagine, if Intel just put firewire support into their chipset? What would it cost?
How about the cost of just the connectors?
I mean, of course the implementation is what makes firewire cost $80. How much does a add on USB board cost, then?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
b3f0R3 4nyOn3 74K3z umbR4G3 47 wH47 1'm 4b0u7 70 Z4y, L37 m3 3xpL41n 7H47 mR. b1|L G473z'Z R3|471OnSH1p 70 7H3 R34L w0RLd 1z 3MpH471c4L|y
p3R1PH3R4L. 1nS734d 0f FOcuZ1nG 0N WHy 4|L 0f 7H3 4nx10uZ Z1GH1nG, |0nG1nG, 4nd H0p1nG 0f b1||'Z H34R7 1z D1R3c73D 70 4 71m3 wH3n pR0f|1G473
1nd1v1Du4Lz C4n Zuck3R uz 1N70 buy1NG 4 |07 0f junk W3 dOn'7 n33d, 1 w0uLd L1K3 70 R3m1nd P30PL3 7H47 1 muS7, 0n pR1nc1pL3, R31nF0Rc3 n0710NZ OF
p0Z171v3 Z3LF 3Z733m. p|41n|y S7473d, w3'R3 4LL 1N 7H1Z M3Zz 7OG37H3R. b1||'z M4G1c-bU|L37 3xpL4n4710NZ 4R3 0F73N d1ZR3G4Rd3D m3R3Ly 4z 0Rn3Ry &
4R3 C0NZ3qU3n7|y n07 7R3473d 4z 7H3 S3R10uz 4ZZ4u|7S 0n |1B3R7y 4nd FR33d0M 7H47 7H3y und3N14b|y 4R3. pL34S3 d0n'7 m1SR34d my W0RDz H3R3;
b1|L'z 3d170R14|Z 4R3 1N cOnfL1c7 w17H 4cc3P73D m0R4L17y. b1L| d03z nO7 d3Z1R3 70 b3n3f17 HUm4N17Y, bu7 R47H3R 70 d1Lu73 7H3 n4710N'Z Z3NZ3 0F
c0mMOn pURp0Z3 & ZH4R3d S4cR1f1C3.
U m4y B3 P1Ck1nG up 0n Z0M37H1nG H3R3 1n 4LL 0f my R3ZP0nZ3Z 70 H1z c0nC3173D 1D34|z. 4L| Of my R3ZpONS3z PR3Zum3 7H47 H1Z 4c71OnZ 4R3 4
H07B3d 0f n3p071Zm. c0nS1d3R 7H3 1ZSu3 0f cYn1c4| juju1Zm. 3v3Ry0n3 4GR33Z 7H47 1n 4Dd1710n 70 c0mmUN1c471NG 4n unD3RZ74ND1nG 0F 7H3
73RR1bL3 d4nG3R w3 f4C3, 1 n33d 70 0P3n S7ud3n7z' 3y3z, m1ndz, H34R7z, 4Nd Z0uLZ 70 7H3 w0RLd 4R0und 7H3m, BU7 7H3R3 4R3 Z71L| Z0m3
S3M1-1n73|L1G1b|3 MYZ71cz 0U7 7H3R3 wH0 d0ub7 7H47 H3 R3ZP3c7z n07H1nG, H0n0Rz n07H1NG, 4nd v4Lu3Z NO7H1nG b3yOnd H1MS3LF. 70 7H3m 1 Z4y: H3
R3pR3Z3n7Z 7H3 m0Z7 R3C3n7 1nc4Rn4710n Of 7H3 uN1qu3 207H-c3N7uRy pH3NOm3nOn kN0wn 4z "BL0ck1ZH 4n4RcH1ZM".
7H3 F1RS7 C4Zu4|7y 0f b1LL'Z 4c71V1713z 1Z jUS71C3. 4Z 1 unD3RZ74nd 17, b1LL W4N7Z N07H1NG L3Zz 7H4n 7O BL17z M3D14 0u7L37z W17H f4x3z &
n3wS|3773RZ 7H47 H1GHL1GH7 7H3 G00d p01n7z 0F H1z m0R4|LY-qu3Z710n4bL3 1RR17471nG z1nG3Rz, H3nc3 H1z R3p3473D, 4LM0S7 HYpn071c, 1nS1Z73Nc3 0n 7H3
1mp0R74nc3 0f H1z W1Ck3D wH1nG3Z. ZOm37H1NG R3c3n7Ly 0cCuRR3d 70 m3 7H47 m1GH7 0cCuR 70 b1L|, 4z w3L|, 1F H3 W0ULd juZ7 7uRn d0Wn 7H3 VO|um3
0f H1z v01C3 f0R 4 mOm3n7: b1|L Sp0u7z 7H3 Z4M3 b1|3 1n 3v3Ry7H1NG H3 wR173Z, M4K1nG 0n|y SL1GH7 M0d1F1c4710nz 7O Zu17 7H3 1ZSu3 47 H4Nd. 7H3 1ZSu3
H3'z 3xc173d 4b0U7 7H1z W33K 1Z un1|473R4L1Zm, wH1cH Z4yz 70 m3 7H47 c4M3R4L1Zm 1Z c0RR3c7Ly D3f1N3d by 17Z bL47H3R1nG Z7y|3, S7RUc7uR3, 4nd
m37H0dz, n07 bY 17z S7473D 0R 4Pp4R3N7 1d3O|OG1c4L pR3m1S3z OR G04|Z. 7H3 1d30LOG1c4L und3RP1nn1nGz 0f H1z 3xp0Z7UL4710nz H4v3 Z7RUck 4
R3c3p71v3 cHORd 4m0nG 7H0UZ4ndz 0f 4n4|-R373n71v3 m4D Gu773R-dw3LL3Rz. bu7 |37'z N07 qU1bB|3 4b0u7 7H47.
wH3n 1 f1RZ7 3NC0UN73R3D b1||'Z R3fR41NZ, 4|| 1 c0uLd 7H1nk 0f w4z, "7H3 N1c3Z7 7H1nG 7H47 c4n b3 Z41d 4B0u7 B1LL'z cR0n13Z 1z 7H47 7H3y 4R3
0PpR3SZ1v3 PR073Z70RZ OU7 70 R3741n 4n 1nS717u71ON wH1CH, 7w1Z7 & 7uRn 4z U |1k3, 1z 4Nd R3m41nz 4 d1SGR4c3 70 HUm4N17y." wHY d0 w3 pu7 up w17H
b1LL? 0ddLy 3N0UGH, H1Z 4RGum3N7z wOu|D b3 4 L07 mOR3 3ff3c71v3 1f 7H3y W3R3 47 L34Z7 4ccUR473 0R 1n73|L1G3N7, N07 JuZ7 4 |04d OF bU|L f0R 7H3 Z4k3
0f b31nG C0n7R0v3RS14|.
7H3R3 4R3 7w0 m41n fL4wz w17H H1z L174n13Z: 1) H1z |4cK3yz 4RGU3, 4G41NZ7 4 Z734dy 4cCR3710n 0f f4c7z 0F 4LR34dY mOun741N0Uz pR0POR710nz, 7H47 w3'D
4LL b3 b3773R 0Ff 1f 7H3y'd JUZ7 d3PR3ZZuR1z3 7H3 FR41| v3ZZ3L 0f Hum4n H0p3Z, 4ND 2) 7H3 N33D H1z H3nCHM3N H4v3 f0R H1z 1n1m1c4L PL0yz 1z
3Sp3C14LLy Z7R0nG 4z 4 m34nz 0f 7R4nZF3RR1nG BL4m3 -- 4n 0u7L37 f0R 7H3 d3Zp41R 7H3y F4c3 WH3n NORm4| cH4Nn3Lz 0f PRO73S7 & CH4nG3 4R3
CL0Z3d. M4yB3 b1LL H4z 4 R34Z0n f0R 4c71nG 7H3 w4Y H3 dO3z, Bu7 1 d0ub7 17. H3 ZUpPOR7Z 4 w1d3 V4R137y 0f C0Mmun1c4710NZ. Z0m3 4R3 pu7R1d; 07H3RZ
4R3 1ncOmp373n7. 4 F3w 0p3nLY ZuPP0R7 0bZcuR4n71ZM. 1ZN'7 17 H1Z70R1C4||y d3m0nZ7R473d 7H47 H3 4Lw4yZ 7R13z 70 SH1f7 bL4M3 fR0m H1mZ3Lf 70
7H3 m0S7 0ff1C10uz 1nZuRR3c710N1Z7z 1'v3 3V3R S33n? d0n'7 m1SuNd3RZ74nd M3; 1'M n07 Z4Y1nG 7H47 m3d10cR17Y & n0Rm4Lcy 4R3 1d34L v1R7U3z. 1N f4c7,
H3 1z 1n73n710n4|Ly b31nG ZH4bby.
17'z 4 w3L|-kn0Wn F4c7 7H47 17'z 71m3 f0R b1|L 70 Z70p H1z ZyZ73m471c 4SZ4uL7 0n R3|1G1Ouz fR33d0m. 17'z 4n 3qU4L|y w3L|-kn0wn f4C7 7H47 7H3R3'Z
Z0m37H1nG Z3v3R3LY wR0nG W17H 7H1z p1c7uR3. WH3n L0G1c pu7z 7H3S3 7w0 f4c7Z 70G37H3R, 7H3 N3C3ZS4Ry R3ZU|7 1Z 4n uND3RZ74nd1nG 7H47 B1L|'z
4SZ3R71On 7H47 H3 1Z fORw4Rd-LO0K1NG, 0p3n-m1nd3D, & cR3471V3 Z3RV3z 0n|y 7O 1LLuS7R473 H1z 1Gn0R4nc3 & P00R|y H1DD3N B1G07Ry. 7O d3ny 7H47 H3
H4z 4 H1dd3n 4G3nD4 1Z n3UR071c N0nS3NS3 4nd P0L171c4L 1RR3Zp0NZ1b1L17y. 17 1Z n0nZ3nZ3 B3C4uZ3 H3 SH0wz 4 c0MpL373 L4Ck 0F f0R3Z1GH7. 4nd 17
1z 1RR3Sp0NZ1bL3 b3c4uZ3 H3 1z 4 v3Ry cO|d-bLO0d3D L177L3 M4N. 7H3 uNd3RLY1NG m3SZ4G3 1z 7H47 S0c137y 4Z 4 wH0L3 ZH0ULd 4c7 4z 4 un1fy1NG f0Rc3
70 3Z74bL1SH 4 SuppOR71v3 -- R47H3R 7H4n 4n 1N71m1d471nG -- 47M0ZpH3R3 F0R 0Ff3R1nG Pub|1c c0mm3n7.
0n 7H3 1ZZU3 0F n471v1SM, b1LL 1z wR0NG 4G41N. ZuR3, 7H1z 1z Zuff1C13n7Ly 1LLuZ7R473d by 7H3 R1d1cuL3 w17H WH1cH H1z 4G3nD4Z 4R3 7R3473D by
3v3RyOn3 07H3R 7H4N L3Wd Z01-d1Z4N7 d0-G00d3Rz. Bu7 L4Z7 Zumm3R, 1 4773Mp73d wH47 1 kn3w W0u|d B3 4 H0p3L3Zz 74Zk. 1 7R13D 70 c0Nv1nc3 B1LL
7H47 C0mp4ZZ10n 4Nd m0R4| pR1nc1pL3 4R3 n07 7H3 m41n m071v3z F0R H1z 4C710nz. 4z 1 3xP3c73d, b1LL W4z 7074LLy unc0nv1nc3d. WHy D03z H3 W4n7 70
d1R3c7 ZOc14L 4c71v17y 7Ow4Rd pH1|4N7HR0p1C fL1M-fL4M R47H3R 7H4n 70w4Rd 7H3 3L1M1N4710n 0F 7H3 b4Z1c d3f1c13nc13z 1n 7H3 0RG4n1Z4710N 0F 0UR
3c0n0m1c & cuL7uR4| L1f3? 7H3 4nSW3R 1z n07 0bV10Uz. w3LL, b1LL, w3'R3 4LL G3771nG 4 L177L3 71R3d 0f U 4nd UR k1Nd m3SZ1NG up 7H3 w0R|D & 7H3n
R3FuS1NG 70 4cc3p7 R3Sp0NZ1B1L17y F0R wH47 yOu'v3 D0n3. W3'R3 f3d uP. 4nd 7H3 d4y 1Z c0m1NG WH3n U'|L b3 H3|D 4cCOUN74BL3 fOR UR ZURLy
4ZS3R710nz.
m4yB3 17'z n07 f41R 70 C4LL H1Z 4ZZ1Z74n7Z "R3pUGn4n7" juZ7 b3c4UZ3 7H3y 1nF1|7R473 7H3 M3D14 w17H 7H3 3xpR3Zz puRp0Z3 0f D1ZZ3m1n471nG Z1LLy
1nf0Rm4710n, bU7 R3m3mb3R 7H47 wH3n H3 H34Rz 4ny0n3 Z4y 7H47 w3 mUZ7 c0O||Y & 0bj3c71v3Ly 4DOp7 7H3 S74ndpO1N7 7H47 H3 1z cH0mp1NG 47 7H3 B17
F0R 4 cH4NC3 70 fORc3 uz 70 741L0R 0uR v3n7uR3z JuZ7 7O Zu17 H1z Z7UbB0Rn wH1mz, H1Z 4nZw3R 1z 70 P41n7 P1c7uR3z 0F p3S71|3n714L w0R|DZ 1nH4B173D bY
M4L4dR017 S3Lf1ZH M4Lc0N73n7Z. 7H47'z Z1m1L4R 70 74k1nG 4 f3w dRunk3n Zw1nGz 47 4 b33H1V3: 17 juS7 M4k3Z m3 w4N7 3v3n m0R3 70 74k3 p3RZ0n4L
4c710n & pURG3 7H3 D4RkN3Sz fR0m H1Z H34R7 wH1L3 R3m41n1nG 7Ru3 70 7HOZ3 b3L13Fz, 1D34Lz, 4nd 4Zp1R4710nz w3 H0Ld m0Z7 d34R. 17 1Z 7H3R3F0R3
R34ZOn4b|3 70 1nf3R 7H47 H1Z Z1MpL1Z71c R34Z0n1nG F0|L0Wz 7H3 Z4m3 f4||4C13Z 4z Z0 m4Ny 07H3R 7R3471Z3z 0n S1m1L4R 1SZu3Z.
B1|L 7H1NKZ 7H47 cH1LDR3N ZH0uLd G37 1n70 C4Rz w17H Z7R4NG3Rz WHO w4V3 |O7z 0f YUMmy c&y 47 7H3m. 0f COuRS3, 7H1Nk1nG S0 d03Sn'7 m4k3 17 Z0.
1'L| 7RY n07 70 dw3|| On 7H1z, bU7 H1z 1D30|0G13z S3RV3 n0 PURp0Z3 07H3R 7H4n 70 D3FuZ3 OR uNd3Rm1n3 1NC1Z1v3 cR171qu3z 0f H1z puZ1L|4n1M0UZ
b3H4V10R by 7uRn1nG 7H3m 1n70 pROc3duR4L 4RGUm3n7z 4B0u7 m3cH4n1ZMz 0f 1nZ717U710n4L R3S7R41n7. 4z f4R 4Z 1 c4N 73|L, FORB34R4nc3 4Nd k1ndLy
d3P0R7m3n7 4R3 |OZ7 Up0n b1|L.
wH47 H3 D03Zn'7 R34L1Z3 1z 7H47 1f 4nY7H1nG, d3b473 W17H H1m 0R 4 Z34RcH f0R c0Mm0n GR0und 1z B07H 4 fRu17L3Zz 3X3RC1Z3 4nD 4 ZU1C1d4L
Z7R473Gy. P3RH4pz b1LL 1z d01nG 7H3 v3RY 7H1NG f0R wH1CH H3 cR171c1z3z 07H3Rz, bu7 R3M3Mb3R 7H47 H1Z H3|p3RZ 4LL L00k L1k3 H1M, 7H1Nk L1k3 H1m, 4c7 |1k3
H1m, & d3L1V3R 4n 4dd1710n4| BL0w 7O D1GN17Y 4nd S3LF-w0R7H, jUZ7 |1k3 H1m. & 4|| 7H1z 1n 7H3 n4m3 0f -- L37 m3 S33 1f 1 c4n G37 7H31R pROp4G&4
Z7R41GH7 -- bRO7H3RH00d & Z3Rv1C3. H4! H1z p3Rv3RZ10nz 4R3 M1R3d 1n C4n74nK3R0uz dup|1c170Uz Z0L3c1Zm. 17 1Z 4LZ0 W0R7HY OF n073 7H47 H3 1z R1GH7
4b0u7 0N3 7H1NG, n4M3Ly 7H47 F34R 1z wH47 m071v473Z Uz. f34R OF WH47 17 m34Nz wH3n v10|3n7 7R4170Rz D3m0nS7R473 4n 0u7R1GH7 HOZ71|17y 7O |4w
3nFORc3m3n7. f34R 0f wH47 17 Z4yZ 4b0u7 0uR Z0C137y WH3N w3 734cH OUR cH1|dR3n 7H47 3v3Ry7H1nG 1Z H4Ppy 4nd f1n3 & G00D. & f34R 0F pR1m171v3
7URnc047z |1K3 b1|L wH0 Z7uL71fy 4R7 & R374RD 7H3 3nJ0ym3n7 4nd 4DOR4710n 0f 7H3 b34U71fuL. L37 m3 CL0S3 by R3m1nd1NG U 7H47 7H3R3 1z 4n07H3R Z1d3
7O 7H3 1ZZu3.
3v3Ryb0dy L0ck y0uR d00RZ, G37 4 Gun, pR073c7 y0uRZ3Lf! 4nd0v3R.n37 1Z pL4nn1nG 70 p0Z3 4 7HR347 70 7H3 ZuRv1v4L 0f d3m0cR4cy! H3R3'Z 7H3 Z70Ry: 17Z cR0n13Z muZ7 m3nd 7H31R w4yZ. 4Z f4R b4ck 4Z 1 c4n R3m3mb3R, 4nd0v3R.n37 H4Z p1773d v3Rm1n 4G41nZ7 myZ71cZ 4nd Zmu7 p3ddL3RZ 4G41nZ7 d34dH34dZ. 4nd0v3R.n37'Z Z33m1nGLy-3G4L174R14n 1d34Z L34d 0nLy 70 R3ZuL7Z 7H47 4R3 b07H v1LL41n0uZ 4nd unf41R. FR0m 4 puR3Ly 73cHn1c4L p01n7 0f v13w, 17 1Z 34Zy 70 Z33 fR0m 7H3 f0R3G01nG 7H47 1 3xp3R13nc3d qu173 4n 3p1pH4ny wH3n 1 f1RZ7 R34L1z3d 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37'Z pubL1c17y Z7un7Z R3fL3c7 Z3v3R4L L4y3RZ 0f m0R4L c0nc3Rn f0R m4ny R3L1G10nZ. 4m 1 4nGRy? Y0u b37. 4nd0v3R.n37'Z p0L1c13Z w1LL ZH1f7 bL4m3 fR0m 7H0Z3 wH0 b3n3f17 fR0m 0ppR3ZZ10n 70 7H0Z3 wH0 Zuff3R fR0m 17 wH3n y0u L34Z7 3xp3c7 17. 4nd0v3R.n37'Z L4ck3yZ Z4y 7H47 n07H1nG w0uLd H3Lp Z0c137y m0R3 7H4n f0R 7H3m 70 4dv0c473 puGn4c10uZ c0ncLuZ10nZ. S0RRy, 1 d0n'7 buy 7H47. L00k 47 17 fR0m my p01n7 0f v13w: 7H3R3 ZH0uLd b3 4 L4w 4G41nZ7 7H1Z. 1 pR3d1c7 7H47 Z00n3R 0R L473R, p30pL3 w1LL G3n3R4LLy 4GR33 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37 1Z 1n73n710n4LLy b31nG c0nd3Zc3nd1nG. 7H1Z 1Z 4 pR3d1c710n 7H47 w1LL n07 b3 7Ru3 1n 4LL c4Z3Z, bu7 17 1Z 3xp3c73d 70 b3c0m3 m0R3 c0mm0n 4Z 71m3 p4ZZ3Z. 4Lm0Z7 w17H0u7 3xc3p710n, 7H0Z3 0f uZ wH0 4R3 700 L4zy 0R d1Z1n73R3Z73d 70 4nn0unc3 7H47 w3 m4y n33d 70 p1ck37, d3m0nZ7R473, m4RcH, 0R Z7R1k3 70 Z70p 4nd0v3R.n37 b3f0R3 17 c4n G37 0n my n3Rv3Z H4v3 n0 R1GH7 70 c0mpL41n wH3n 17 4nd 17Z H3ncHm3n m4k3 4 m0ck3Ry 0f 7H3 73Rm "Zync473G0R3m471c4LLy". 1f 7H3 L3f7 0f 7H3 cuRR3n7 p0L171c4L Zp3c7Rum 1Z v1p3R1n3 1mp3R14L1Zm, 4nd 7H3 R1GH7 1Z unc0mpR0m1Z1nG p4R4Z171Zm, 7H3n 4nd0v3R.n37'Z p0L171cZ 4R3 d3f1n173Ly G01nG 70 b3 4 f0Rm 0f 1nZ3cuR3 R4c1Zm. 1nd1v1du4LLy, 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 7R4c7Z w1n Zupp0R7 by 3nc4pZuL471nG fRuZ7R4710nZ 4nd d1R3c71nG 7H3m 70w4Rd unp0puL4R Zc4p3G047Z. Bu7 L1nk3d 70G37H3R, 4nd0v3R.n37'Z pR3ZZ R3L34Z3Z c0uLd uZ3 cH34p, 1n73mp3R473 pR0p4G4nd4 70 4R0uZ3 7H3 p4ZZ10nZ 0f 7H3 w0RZ7 k1ndZ 0f b4Rb4R1c Z4b073uRZ 7H3R3 4R3. 7H3 und3RLy1nG R34Z0nZ 4nd c4uZ3Z f0R 4nd0v3R.n37'Z un7RuZ7w0R7Hy c0nv1c710nZ muZ7 b3 d3f1n3d, 3x4m1n3d, 4nd R3Z0Lv3d, 0R 7H3y'LL n3v3R c34Z3. 47 7H3 v3Ry L34Z7, 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 4RR0G4nc3 w1LL L34d 17 70 f1GH7 w17H Zp1R17u4L w34p0nZ 7H47 4R3 4Z unf0RG1v1nG 4Z 7H3y 4R3 m34n-Zp1R173d Z0m371m3 Z00n. WHy d03Z 4nd0v3R.n37 w4n7 70 Zuck up 70 0u7-0f-70ucH 4d0L3Zc3n7Z? B3c4uZ3 17Z f3w p0Z171v3 c0n7R1bu710nZ w1LL c0n71nu3 70 b3 0v3RZH4d0w3d by 17Z bR04d3R m3ZZ4G3 0f H473. 7H47'Z n07 7H3 0nLy R34Z0n, 0f c0uRZ3, bu7 1'LL G37 70 7H3 07H3R R34Z0nZ L473R. 1 c4n 0nLy 74k3 Z70ck 0f wH47 w3 kn0w, 1d3n71fy 4R34Z f0R fuR7H3R R3Z34RcH, 4nd pR0v1d3 4 uZ3fuL Z74R71nG p01n7 f0R d3b473 0n 4nd0v3R.n37'Z c4LL0w R4ZH pR1nc1pL3Z 1f 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 4Rmy 0f unpR1nc1pL3d p377y m4n14cZ 1Z d3c1m473d d0wn 70 7H0Z3 wH0Z3 1nb0Rn L4ck 0f cH4R4c73R p3Rm17Z 7H3m 70 b37R4y 4ny7H1nG 4nd 3v3Ry7H1nG f0R 7H3 w3LL-kn0wn 7H1R7y p13c3Z 0f Z1Lv3R. 17 1Z und3n14bL3 by 4ny0n3 bu7 Z7ubb0Rn Zw1ndL3RZ 7H47 1 1n73nd 70 3x3Rc1Z3 my fR4ncH1Z3 70 k33p 0uR c0uR4G3 up, y37 d1ff3R3n7 p30pL3 0f73n Z33 7H3 Z4m3 Zubj3c7 1n d1ff3R3n7 L1GH7Z. 7H1Z Z0R7 0f v3R71G1n0uZ p4R4d0x 1Z w3LL kn0wn 70 m0Z7 w1ZHy-w4ZHy pHL3Gm471c bL4ckGu4RdZ. 4nd0v3R.n37 1Z L1k3 4 bR0k3n R3c0Rd, uZ1nG 7H3 Z4m3 71R3d cL1cH3Z 4b0u7 f4m1Ly 4nd 3duc4710n 4nd Z4f3R Z7R337Z, y37 17 Z4yZ 7H47 Zp4c3 4L13nZ 4R3 0u7 70 L4y 3GGZ 1n 0uR 1nn4RdZ 0R 00z3 7H31R 4L13n H3LL-ZL1m3 4LL 0v3R uZ. W0w! 1Zn'7 7H47 L1k3 H1d1nG 7H3 Z70L3n G00dZ 1n 7H3 cL0Z37 4nd, wH3n 7H3 c0pZ c0m3 1n, Z74nd1nG 1n fR0n7 0f 7H3 cL0Z37 d00R 4nd 3xcL41m1nG, "7H3y'R3 n07 1n H3R3!"? Ruff14n1Zm c4n b3 d34dLy, bu7 4nd0v3R.n37'Z p3R0R4710nZ 4R3 mucH w0RZ3. C0n7R4Ry 70 p0puL4R b3L13f, 7H3 c0R3 0f 7H1Z Z33m1nGLy 1nZ0LubL3 pR0bL3m 1Z 7H3 f4c7 7H47 juZ71c3 4nd Hum4n17y 4R3 u773RLy 0n 0uR Z1d3 4nd n07H1nG bu7 1LL3G4L17y 4nd b4Rb4R17y 4R3 0n 17Z. F0R y0uR 3d1f1c4710n, 1 ZH0uLd unH3Z17471nGLy p01n7 0u7 7H47 mump1ZH b00RZ, 4Lm0Z7 by d3f1n1710n, und3RZ7473 7H3 n3G471v3 1mp4c7 0f S74L1n1Zm. 1 n3v3R c34Z3 70 b3 4m4z3d 47 7H3 w4y 7H47 1 4m H1GHLy cR171c4L 0f 7H0Z3 wH0 70L3R473 0R 4p0L0G1z3 f0R p30pL3 wH0 w0Rk w17H 4nd0v3R.n37. 1 m34n, R34LLy. 4nd0v3R.n37'Z d0c7R1n3Z 4R3 pR0p4G4nd4 70 7H3 p01n7 0f c0m3dy 4nd 4R3 Z0 34Z1Ly R3fu73d 4Z 70 R3nd3R 7H3m uZ3L3ZZ 3v3n 4Z ZucH. Y37 7H3R3'Z m0R3 70 17 7H4n 7H47. Y0u 4R3, 1'm ZuR3, w3LL 4w4R3 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37 ZH0uLd pR4c71c3 wH47 17 pR34cH3Z. Bu7 d1d y0u kn0w 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37'Z Z3Rm0nZ 4R3 Z0m3 0f 7H3 m0Z7 4RR0G4n7, 1nZ1d10uZ, 4nd Rud3 1'v3 3v3R 3nc0un73R3d? R3G4RdL3ZZ 0f 7H3 7H30R371c4L b34u7y 0f 7H3 n0710n 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37 H4Z L37 17Z L0f7y-y37-Zp173fuL v13wZ cL0ud 17Z Z3nZ3 0f 74Z73 4nd R34L17y, 7H3R3 1Z 7H3 0pp0Z1nG f4c7 7H47 1 1nd33d b3L13v3 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37 ZH0uLd 74k3 R3Zp0nZ1b1L17y f0R 17Z 4c710nZ. 4Z 4 m4773R 0f p0L1cy, 3cc3n7R1c N34nd3R7H4LZ ZH0uLd n07 3nc0uR4G3 p30pL3 70 L34v3 7H31R Zp0uZ3Z, k1LL 7H31R cH1LdR3n, pR4c71c3 w17cHcR4f7, d3Z7R0y c4p174L1Zm, 4nd b3c0m3 4n71Z0c14L f4n471cZ, bu7 7H1Z H4Z n3v3R Z70pp3d 4nd0v3R.n37. 4L7H0uGH 4nd0v3R.n37 H4Z m4n4G3d 70 4v01d 1nd1c7m3n7, 0R 3v3n 4 c0nZ3nZuZ 7H47 17 d1d 4ny7H1nG 1LL3G4L, 17Z cL41mZ R33k 0f Z0 mucH L4RR1k1n1Zm 7H47 7H3 Zm3LL m4k3Z m3 n4uZ30uZ. S0m37H1nG 7H47 1 H4v3 H34Rd R3p3473d Z3v3R4L 71m3Z fR0m v4R10uZ Z0uRc3Z -- 4 Z0R7 0f "74G L1n3" f0R 4nd0v3R.n37 -- 1Z, "W3 ZH0uLd G0 0u7 4nd R3GuL473 4n4RcH1Zm. 4nd wH3n w3'R3 d0n3 w17H 7H47, w3'LL 4LL Z73p 0n 07H3R p30pL3'Z 703Z." 7H1Z 1Z n07 4 d1R3c7 qu073, n0R H4v3 1 H34Rd 17 fR0m 4nd0v3R.n37'Z L1pZ d1R3c7Ly, bu7 Z3v3R4L Z0uRc3Z H4v3 p4R4pHR4Z3d 7H3 c0n73n7 70 m3 1n n34R-3n0uGH w4yZ 7H47 1 f33L f41RLy c0nf1d3n7 17 4c7u4LLy w4Z Z41d. 4nd 70 b3 H0n3Z7, 1 H4v3 n0 7R0ubL3 b3L13v1nG 17. 1 cR1nG3 47 7H3 7H0uGH7 0f H0w 4nd0v3R.n37 m1GH7 Z0m3 d4y H4v3 4 Z3R10uZ d3Z74b1L1z1nG 3ff3c7 0n 0uR 1nZ717u710nZ. 47 L34Z7, 7H47 c3R741nLy Z33mZ 70 b3 7H3 1mpL1c4710n 1n Z3v3R4L 0f 7H3 4cc0un7Z 1'v3 H34Rd. 7H3 m0Z7 Z0b3R1nG 4Zp3c7 0f 4nd0v3R.n37'Z pR073Z7Z 1Z 7H47 1f 7H3R3'Z 4n un70Ld Z70Ry H3R3, 17'Z 7H47 1'm n07 G01nG 70 R3Zp0nd 70 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 1mpR3c4710nZ b3y0nd Z4y1nG 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37'Z R3j01nd3RZ 4R3 4 c3ZZp00L 0f n3G471v1Zm. 4nd wH47 4b0u7 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 4ZZ1Z74n7Z? 7H3y, L1k3 4nd0v3R.n37, 4R3 H34R7L3ZZ cR371nZ. 4Z 4 G3n3R4L RuL3, 4nd0v3R.n37 H4Z ZH0wn 17'Z n07 4fR41d 70 b3 G4RRuL0uZ. 17 1Z 1mp0R74n7 70 d1ff3R3n71473 b37w33n 7H3 m0Z7 unc7u0uZ N3w 4G3 d3R3L1c7Z 1'v3 3v3R Z33n 4nd cLu3L3ZZ uZuR3RZ wH0, 1n 4 v4R137y 0f w4yZ, H4v3 b33n LuR3d by 4nd0v3R.n37'Z j4ckb0073d 4LL3G4710nZ, 0R wH0 H4v3 3nd3d up w1771nGLy 0R unw1771nGLy 1n c04L1710nZ w17H 4nd0v3R.n37'Z H3Lp3RZ, 0R wH0 m41n741n c0n74c7 w17H 4nd0v3R.n37 4Z p4R7 0f Z3R10uZ 4nd L3G171m473 R3Z34RcH. D03Z 4nd0v3R.n37 H4v3 4 p01n7? 1 d0ub7 17. Of73n, 7H3 LuR3 0f 4n 4R71cuL473 n3w pund17, 4 w3LL-f1n4nc3d 4773n710n-G3771nG pR0GR4m, 4n 3ff3c71v3 4ud13nc3 G3n3R470R, H07 n3w "1nZ1d3" 1nf0Rm4710n, 0R 4 pR0f3ZZ10n4LLy-pR0duc3d 3xp0Zé 1Z 1RR3Z1Z71bL3 70 p33v1ZH 7R0ubL3m4k3RZ wH0 w4n7 70 ZpR34d H47R3d, 4n1m0Z17y, 4nd d1v1Z1v3n3ZZ. W3LL, 4nd0v3R.n37, w3'R3 4LL G3771nG 4 L177L3 71R3d 0f y0u 4nd y0uR k1nd m3ZZ1nG up 7H3 w0RLd 4nd 7H3n R3fuZ1nG 70 4cc3p7 R3Zp0nZ1b1L17y f0R wH47 y0u'v3 d0n3. W3'R3 f3d up. 4nd 7H3 d4y 1Z c0m1nG wH3n y0u'LL b3 H3Ld 4cc0un74bL3 f0R y0uR m4L0d0R0uZ p0Z7m0d3Rn1Z7 uL71m474. 1n 07H3R w0RdZ, 7H3 w0RLd w0uLd b3 b3773R 0ff 1f 4nd0v3R.n37 H4d n3v3R b33n b0Rn. 1 1ndub174bLy d0ub7 w3 c0uLd b347 7H1Z 1n70 4nd0v3R.n37'Z H34d, bu7 w3 muZ7 Z34RcH f0R Z0Lu710nZ 7H47 4R3 m0R3 cR3471v3 4nd c0nZ7Ruc71v3 7H4n 7H3 7yp1c4LLy Zn007y 0n3Z cH4mp10n3d by d3c317fuL Z71nk1nG ZLubb3Rd3GuLL10nZ. OuR cH1LdR3n d3p3nd 0n 7H47. M0R3 c0ncR373Ly, 1 0nc3 H4d 4 n1GH7m4R3 1n wH1cH 4nd0v3R.n37 w4Z fR33 70 pL4c3 Z7umbL1nG bL0ckZ 1n fR0n7 0f 7H0Z3 0f uZ wH0 Z33k v4Lu3 4nd fuLf1LLm3n7 1n 0uR p3RZ0n4L 4nd pR0f3ZZ10n4L L1v3Z. (4c7u4LLy, mucH 0f 17Z b3H4v10R 1Z n07 R4710n4LLy c4LcuL473d 70 b3 0f b3n3f17 70 7H3 ZH4bby H0m0pH0b1c-7yp3Z wH0m 17 cL41mZ 70 b3 7Ry1nG 70 H3Lp, bu7 7H47'Z n07 1mp0R74n7 n0w.) 1 pL4n 70 w0Rk w17H1n 7H3 ZyZ73m 70 p3RZu4d3 my f3LL0w c171z3nZ 7H47 4nd0v3R.n37'Z 7R1ckZ 4R3 m4d3 0f 7H3 Z4m3 Zp1R17 7H47 4cc0un7Z f0R 7H3 m4j0R17y 0f 7H3 pR0bL3mZ w3 f4c3 1n 7H1Z w0RLd, n07 b3c4uZ3 1 L4ck 7H3 c0uR4G3 f0R m0R3 dR4Z71c Z73pZ, bu7 b3c4uZ3 1 4m m0R4LLy 4nd 37H1c4LLy 0pp0Z3d 70 4nd0v3R.n37'Z pR4c71c3Z. OnLy 4nd0v3R.n37 c0uLd 7H1nk 7H47 ZuLL3n c4Rp37b4GG3RZ 4R3 4ny b3773R 7H4n 1n7RuZ1v3 pR0p4G4nd1Z7Z. 4nd0v3R.n37'Z pL0yZ m4y n07 b3 7R4d1710n4L f0R 4LL d0dGy p4R4n014cZ, bu7 4nd0v3R.n37 3xpR3ZZ3Z 4 b3n1GH73d n0Z74LG14 f0R 4 un1f0Rm, uncH4LL3nG1nG, H0m0G3n30uZ Z0c137y 7H47 n3v3R R34LLy 3x1Z73d. D03Z 4nyb0dy 3LZ3 f33L 7H3 w4y 1 d0, 0R 4m 1 4L0n3 1n my d1ZGuZ7 w17H 4nd0v3R.n37?
Can anyone out there give a (succinct) description of what the technical difficulties of increasing bandwidth are? I understand about s/n ratio, sort of, but do not really understand the recent trend towards the serial. For example, precisely *why* is it that ATA cannot be extended any further without signalling changes.
BTW, I while ago I saw someone apologise for being an EE instead of a CS. I would apologise for being a CS instead of an EE, except I'm neither! ;-)
____________________
He who fights and runs away,
_________________
rooooar
You want to be replying to the poll topic, nto this article, jooky!
If you can't connect a reasonable number of devices to a serial ATA chain (like, oh, 15, for instance?) it sounds to me like more hype than substance.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Does anyone know if Serial ATA will support more than 4 devices? With my two hard drive, zip drive, and DVD drive, I don't have any room for tape backup! And no, I can't afford the inflated price of SCSI. And with Apple making computers now with ATA interfaces, SCSI is set to get even more expensive.
Of course, I may be an exception here, with all four PCI slots, all four ATA slots, my AGP slot, and one ISA slot filled. At least I still have one memory slot left.... Anyone know where to find a motherboard with more expansion capabilities?
Not unless iMacs and Apple dies.
Not unless Sony stops making iLink camcorders, CDRWs, VCRs, digital TVs, and notebooks
Not unless Canon, Phillips, et al also stop making Firewire devices
Not unless Intel can push something better and cheaper than Firewire to all the above companies
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Ok here goes:
I have a USB mouse.
I have a USB printer.
We are supposedly going to flat screens with digital video cards. So we may as well make that a USB port too.
Another USB cable carrying digital sound to your subs/speakers.
A USB joystick.
A USB keyboard.
So whats that leave. RJ45 net connection and a phone line. I can't see those changing anytime soon.
So really why can't we have a whole shit load of USB ports and an RJ45 and RJ11, isn't that all that is needed? Two standards, RJ and USB, sounds good to me. Its probably just a matter of time....
For the technically inclined out there, USB for video is the only weakness I see, if you have guranteed sufficient bandwidth and a digital signal there is no reason it shouldn't work?
And FireWire doesn't tax the processor like ATA/UltraDMA/IDE (or whatever you want to call it).
Oh. And did I say that FireWire has been demoed running wirelessly at over 100 Mbps?
Imagine what FireWire will do tomorrow.
USB, internal/external FireWire, PCI, AGP, no legacy crap(except MacOS 9, soon that will be gone too)
Unfortunately for the BSD folk, and fortunately for those that have appreciated the outgrowth of Linux, technical considerations were not the only issue. There was this "minor" matter of the USL lawsuit.
As it turns out, with Linux, as well as with Firewire, technology is not the only issue; licensing constraints figure prominently. Extremely prominently.
People were scared off of *BSD, whether rightly or wrongly, by the fear of the effects of the lawsuit.
And it appears that Apple is doing a good number on the adoption of Firewire, perhaps, simply, by their existence. After all, after the discontinuance of Newton, and the fun of "What variation of NeXTstep will we stop selling today?" it appears unwise to trust too much to the good graces of Apple.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I guess IP over Firewire is already implemented and working exclusively on Linux. I *really* hope this takes off :-)
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
sOMe o mE CoLlEEGUES ReCoMMENDeD DAT mE wRiTeS a lETTER bOuT OW MR. rOB MAlDA AS fAIlED To pROvIdE uS wID a COnTeXT In wHICh IS mEMOiRs cOuLD BE dIScUsSED AN uNDERStOoD. dIs dAt lEtTER. WID dIS lETTeR, ME OpE tO rEViEW dE BASIC ISsUES aT dE rOOT o DE DEBATE. bUT fIrSt, ME wOULD LIkEs tO mAkE dE fOLLOWIn iNTROdUCtORY rEMARK: uNlIKE ROB, mE STAnD FoR pROGrESSiOn, NoT rEgRESSiON. HIF dE mASS nEWs MEDIA WErE ACtUaLLy iN DE bUSInESs o cOvERIN nEWS RAThER DAn MOLDIn PUbLIC aTTITUDES TO gAlVAnIZE a dIsRUpTIF dESTRUCTIF HySTERIA, A lARgE- ScAlE VeRSIOn O DE ObStREPEROuS mENtAlITY DaT CaN lEt US KNOW eXACTLy wHAT OUR ATTiTuDeS sHoULD bE TOWArDS VARiOuS TYpEs O pEoPlE aN bEhAvIoR, dEy WOULD uNDENIaBlY REpORt DAT E aN mE DiSAGReE BOuT oUR cIvIC DUTIeS. ME cLAIm dAt wE mUSt dO OuR uTmOsT TO TaKE sTePs TOWARD CREeTIn AN iNcLUSIF sOcIETY FREE O aTtITUDInAl BaRRiErS As EgGSPeDItIoUSLY AS pOSsIBLE. rOb, On De OTHER AND, bELiEVeS dAt iS iNTImATIONs cAN GiF Us dEePER InSiGHtS iNTo DE NaTUrE o rEELITY.
WhATeVER ApPeNED tO GOOd SpORTSMAnShIP? In LiGhT O mE STANCe oN DIS IsSuE, iS cRONiES cAN cOnCeIF O NoTHiN BUt aTeFUL DEFeNsES o iS ILl- bRED PRAnKs. ROb eVeRy BIT AS pRoDIGaL AS xENoPhOBIC pOSeURs. AM mE SaYiN DaT oNE O dE MOSt wIdESPrEEd MANIfEsTaTIONS o dE CrAZiNeSs O oUr wORl dEFeETIsM? YES. dAT DE dYNaMICs O DE SITUaTIOn aRE sUCH DAT dIS a tRaNSPARENt ATTEmPt tO SuPpORT THOSE FoR WHoM aTRED aS BECoMe A WAY o lIFE? MAYbE. dAt ME, fOR oNE, aM dECIdEDlY nOT aSHAMED tO AdMIT dAt sOME O rOB'S pLATiTUDeS rAiSE IMpOrTANT qUeSTIONS BOUT fUTUrE sOcIaL iNTErAcTIoNS aN THEIR rElATIONSHIP tO cIvIL LIBeRTiEs? dEfInItELY.
TrUE, mE pRoUDLY ADOPT DIS sTAnD, bUT iS sOUNd BItES aV REeCHED a DEPTH o DEGEnERaCY DAT wAS vIRTUAlLy UnKnOWN iN dE pAST. A sTUDY O NaIf mORONs INdICATES bROAD pOLITICAL aN iDEoLoGiCAL aGrEeMENT oN dE uSE o FORcE COMBInED wId A SET o SiMPLE tACTICS To aCHIeVE ThEIR IMMeDIAtE GoAl: tO SIPHON oFF SCaRCE INTERNAtIoNAL cAPiTAL iNtENDED fOr uNDErDEVElOPEd COUNTRiES. LET'S JUS IgNoRE rOb AN sEE wHAT E dO. wHEN We TEeSE APART DE aSSOCIaTiONS nECEsSaRY tO IS VaInGLOrIOUS OUT- o- tOUCH PERsOnAl aTtACKS, WE sEE dAt tHeSe CLASSEs o LoUSY DISHoNeST aDmINIsTRATORs sHoULD bE dEELT WID iMMEdIaTELy. wHY dOEsN'T e REVEeL De TRuTH BoUT iMsElF?
rOB aS nEVeR bEEN aBLE TO aSSiMiLATE aN aCcEpT dE uMANE iDeELS, CIvILIZED AIMS, aN sOCIAl aSPiRaTiOnS o IS PEeRs. DeN aGAIn, DaT NOtIoN aS BEEn pOPuLaR FOR aS lONG aS cOmMErCIaLIsM aS EXISTED. IMaGInE GETtIn a DOLlAR eVERY TIME E sAId e wOUlDN'T TURn pEECEFuL GAtHeRiNgS INTO EMBArRaSsIn sCaNDaLs, BUT DiD sO AnYHoW. yOu'D cERtAInLY BE VeRY, VErY RiCh. E TRUlY NeEd TO COMe tO TERMs wID Is dAFt PAST. IN Me vIeW, mE aV AD eNOUgH O rOb'S fOUl- mOUTHEd tACtICs. ME uSeD To THInK dAT OPELeSS wOrRYwARTS wErE DE MOST rECALCItRaNT PEOPlE ON De PlAnET, bUT NoW ME KnOw dAT dIChOTOMoUs THINkIn As StYmIED ROB'S aBILItY TO REECH SoLuTiONS.
aLTHOuGH tHEoRETiCAL dIFfEReNcES cAn Be dRAwN BeTWeEN ROB'S vEXATIoUs MEMoRAnDA An SNOTTY ETHNoCeNTRiSM, ThEsE ARE DiStINCTiONS wItHOUT a dIFfErENcE. ROB wOuLdN'T bE ABLE tO REEp A ARVEsT o DEETh hIF E WERE WoRkIN ON a LeVEl pLAYiN fIELd. tHoSE WHo bElIeVE dAT gOVeRNMeNTs SHOULd AV De rIgHT tO LIE TO tHEIR oWN SuBJEcTS oU TO OThEr gOVeRnMENTs aRe EiTHER NAiF oU DELiBeRaTeLY mIsLED. ROb CHOMPiN aT dE bIT fOr A cHAnCE tO DeSTROY AnY rESiStANCe BY cHANnElIN It InTO InEFfECtIF PATHs. TO mAKe a LONG sTORY SHORt, tHeRE aRe THREe fAIrLY ObViOUs pROBLEmS WId IS pHiLiPPiCs, EeCh o WHIcH NEED tO bE ADdRESSEd bY aNY lETtER DaT aTtEmPtS tO jUStIfY CONdEmNaTION, cOnSTRUCTiF CrItICISM, aN rIDIcULE o iM aN iS TREeCHErOUS METhODS o iNtERpReTaTiON. FIRST, E MAKeS iT iS jOB TO PeRpEtUATE aRMFUL STErEOTYpEs. sEcOND, fOR sOME StRAnGE rEEsON, E WoRRIeD e'Ll bE DISENfRANCHiSED AN sHUnNEd BY LIBIDInOUS PROpAGANDISTs. aN ThIRD, mE AM sTARTIN A GRASSROOTS cAmPaIGN wID De sOlE PuRpOSE O sToPPIN rOB. MORE PrOSAICAlLy, Is dEMeNTEd LItANIeS ARe tO PoLiTICS wHaT DE bLiTZkRIEG wAS To iNTERNaTiONaL dIPLoMaCY. ALtHOuGH rOB'S OvErT eLITiSM aS dECLInED, a cOVERT FORM sTiLL SuRVIvES aN MAY BE aN IMPORtANT FACtOR iN FUeLIN a TeNDENcY aN/ oU DEsIRE tO ACcELERATE DE nATuRaL tEnDeNCY O cIvILIZAtION TO dEVOLvE fROM oRdER To CHAOS, lIbERTy TO TYRaNnY, aN ViRTuE TO vICE.
PErHaPS hIf ROB tHOUGHT bOuT It, e'D rEeLIzE dAT eVEN IS mOST SeLf- aBsORBEd lACkEyS ARe TrAiNED IN DE UsE O FORCE, DeEdLY FORCE, AdVAnCEd wEePoNRY, aN oFFeNsIF AN DEfEnSIF TACtICS. ThERe ARE ThREE pOINTS mE NeEDS TO mAkE eRE. fIRST, WE MUsT rECoGNIzE dAt dE WORST TYpES O UNREESOnAbLE CHUCkLEHEEdS tHERE aRE DIfFeR FROM EEcH oTHER oNlY iN De DEGREE TO WHIcH dEy aLTER LAWS, LANGuAGE, aN cUSTOMS iN dE sERVIcE O rEGuLATiN sOcIAL RELaTiOnS. SeCoND, E oBVIOuSLY iDiN sUMPiN. AN tHIRD, We AV tO cONsIDEr aLL O OUR OPTiONs. SOcIAL sTAbILItY AN fAMIlY UNItY ArE tWO THiNgS dAT iMpETUOUS KoOkS AV nO cONCErN fOr. yET DE eSTABLISHMENT MEDIA COnSIStENtLy IgNOREs, dOWNPLAYs, oU MARGINaLIzES dIS fACt.
ERE'S A SPeCIfIC ExAMPLE o dE WaY iN WHICH NO CLEER- ThInKIn InDIVIDUAl WOuLD Av DE tEMErITY TO STrAp uS DOWN wID a NEtWOrK o rUlEs aN rEgULATIOnS: E wAnT tO CrEEtE aN iNSiPiD wORL O gUIlT An sHAMe. hIF ROB AD dONe iS OmEWORk, E'D KNoW DaT DEBaTe wID Im oU A sEErCh FoR cOmMoN GrOUND bOtH A FrUITLESs eXERCISe aN a sUICiDaL sTrAtEGY. ANYONE WHo fOLlOwS tODAy'S DEBAtES On DeMAGoGISm aN, bY aPPENsTANCe, aLsO FaMILIAR wID RoB's sORdID cOnTeMPTUOUs ANNOUnCEMENTS, sTRuCK bY DAt oLD tRuISm: RUDE PrOvOcATEURS WiLl aLwAyS bAND ToGETHER tO pOkE SOMEONe'S EyEs oUt. NOW, mE OPE rOB WaS jOkIN WHeN E iMpLIED e wAS GOIN To mARGINAlIzE mE bASeD On ME gEnDEr, RAcE, oU RELIGIOn, BUT iT SuRe DIdN't SOUnD lIKeS iT. pARdON mE cOaRsE LAnGUAgE, BUT " RoB" aS nOW BeCOmE PArT O mE VoCABULARY. wHeNEvEr ME SEe sOmEoNe dEFaCe PROPERTy WiD rAcIALLy An SEXUALLY DeROgATOrY EPiTHETS aN OfFENSIF SYMBOLs, ME TElL iM oU eR To sTOp " ROb- iN". mE UNHESItAtINgLY CAn't sTREsS DiS ENOUGH, bUT DE uNaLTERaBLE LAW O BIOLoGy As A cORoLlARY DAT gENeRaLlY oVErLOOKeD. SPEcIFICaLlY, e AS mAdE SoMe dAnGeROuS aSSUMPtIONs BoUT GiN- sWiLLiN WeIRdOS.
rOB sHOULd cLARIFY Is POINT, sO PEOPLE LiKEs yOU An mE cAN TELl wHAT De ECK e iS tALKIn bOUt. WiTHoUT cLARiFiCATiOn, ROb's UnDERTaKiNGs SOUNd lOFtY AN INClUDE SoMe eMoTIoNAlLY CHaRgED wORDS BUt dOn REELlY sEEM tO mAKE ANY SENsE. ThInGS aRE aPT tO GET wORsE BEfOrE dEY gET BETTEr. wHy? THaT'S EESY. dIFFErENt PEoPlE OFTeN sEE DE SaME sUbJECt IN DIFFeRENt LIgHtS.
hIF iT wErEN'T fOR iNTeMpERaTE MOUnTEBaNkS, rOb WOuLD AV nO FrIEnDs. YOU mIgHT nOT cArE DaT ANGER CONtAGIOuS, BUT YOu'D bEtTEr sTART cARiN HIF yOU dON wANtS IM TO CoNvERT OuR ChILDrEN To CUlTUrAL ZOMBIEs iN A mASS O uNThINkIn AN EESILy- eRDEd pROLEtARIAN CaTtLe. wHy dO iS eNCHMEn wANtS tO pREcIPiTaTE rIoTs? dE aNsWeR, O cOuRsE, cOMPlETELY TrANSpAReNT. e APPARENtLY WaNt TO USE uS TO FULfIlL iS sLOVeNLy mISSIoN. IgNOrAnCe bLISS. DIS mAy BE wHY ROB's AsSISTAnTS ARE gENERaLLY aLL SmIlES.
AcCoRdIn To dE LaTeSt sCIeNTiFiC EVIdENcE, RoB'S rEJoINDeRS WILL aV COnSeQUeNCeS -- vERy SErIOUS cONSEQuENCeS. aN WE OUgHt tO bEgIN DoIN SuMPIN BOuT dAT. WE CaN'T STOp ROB OVeRNIGHT. IT tAkEs TiMe, PAtIEnCE aN EgGSPERIeNcE tO sTrIKE AT dE eErT O RoB'S EfFoRtS TO pROpITIAtE ECtORIn sCaTTERBRAINs FOR LaTeR EVEnTUALItIES. NOW fOR sOME PaRTiN aDvICE: lOoKS AT De fACTS. aNaLYZE dE aRGuMEnTS. ThInK bOUT De mOtIVeS o dE PEOpLe WhO ArE tElLiN yOU dAt pUbLIC oPInION A RELIABLe iNDiCATOR O WHAT'S tRUe AN WHAt ISN't. aN Av CONFIDENCe In YOUrSeLF. rEMEMBER, wE mUST oLd mR. rOB MAlDA rEsPoNSIbLE FOR dE aTREd E sO fURtIVELY EgGSPrESSEs wITHOUT dE SLIgHTEsT cOnSIDeRAtION FOR ANy SCREEMs aN cOMPLAiNTs DaT mIGHt aRIsE.
Nobody? Wow, what a surprise. Congratulations, you've taken the first step to peecee recovery: admitting that peecees aren't really what you want. Now, in that context, is serial ata really what you want either? No? Baby steps, kid, baby steps. You'll get there eventually. Hopefully the companies that know how to make what you really want will still be around by the time you realize what that is.
Fscking peecee lusers and their super-duper "standards" from their savior Intel. I'm going to go retch now. You think about what I've said.
I hope this "standard" goes down in flames. We have the opportunity to ditch the decrepit kludge known as ATA/IDE and what does Intel do? They scrape off some of the rust and add chrome mud flaps. They should be ashamed of themselves. Serial ATA is register compatible with the WD1003 disk controller. If you don't know what that is, ask your parents. It was introduced for the IBM PC/AT when 40 MB disk drives were hot stuff. All this "standard" does is to replace a parallel cable with a serial cable. It intentionally leaves all the accumulated crud of the ATA interface in place. There is no reason to drag this baggage into the future. ATA should be deprecated and replaced with a modern I/O interface such as IEEE-1394 or SCSI over a high speed, hot pluggable, serial interface.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
How about using fibre channel? Its already an established standard. The actual hard drives are getting very cheap. I see 9 gig fibre channel drives for around $100 at some places. Unfortunately the cost of the controller is like $500.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The spec for USB was for small peripherals, and Intel wanted to add hard disks. I believe they did this because USB was ENTIRELY CPU DEPENDENT. To say the least, it's obvious the end. Most likely the same with USB2 and Serial ATA. 1394 beats it out because it's like SCSI. It can handle peripherals, internal drives, is NOT cpu dependent, can be used with both ATA and SCSI devices through adapters, and has a far more expandable bus than USB.
We desperately need 1394.
I'm not sure which of the competing serial standards achieve this, but it is impressive that the computer-guts pictures in the article show that they not only eliminated the ribbon cables, but the thumb-thick bundle of power wires also.
"I don't know much about hardware, but I know what I like"
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
One of the most cynical deals recently involves the merger of two software companies trying to cash in on the Linux operating system craze: Andover.net Inc. of Acton, Mass., and VA Linux Systems Inc. of Sunnyvale, Calif.--which went public within 24 hours of each other back in early December. Less than eight weeks later, on Feb. 3, the two companies announced a stock-for-stock merger in which the California company has agreed to acquire the Massachusetts crowd for about 6 million shares of VA Linux and $60 million in cash. The cynicism in the transaction is not simply that the deal took place so shockingly soon after the two companies wrapped up their I.P.O.'s, but that the transaction included what amounted to a legalized bribe on the part of the VA Linux bunch to get the Andover.net crowd to accept the offer. The deal means that the $60 million in cash from VA Linux will go directly to Andover.net's shareholders, at $3.81 per share, in effect handing over the same amount of money Andover.net raised in the I.P.O. only weeks earlier. Prior to the I.P.O., the company's insiders had only paid a grand total of $15.7 million in cash into the company. Now they are being handed back $60 million as compensation. What a deal. As for investors in VA Linux, they are getting hosed. The company's stock was priced in the I.P.O. at $30 per share, but opened for trading at $299 and instantly shot to $320, then collapsed like many of the others and eight weeks later is now selling for $110. Faced with 39.7 million total shares outstanding already--of which only 4.4 million are held by the general public--investors in the stock can now look forward to the imminent registration of 4 million more shares by the company, which will doubtless come pouring into the market soon thereafter, thanks to the Andover.net deal. In other words, the only really valuable asset Andover.net ever had--its cash from the I.P.O.--was creamed off by the company's insiders almost the very instant they got their hands on it, leaving VA Linux's shareholders to face a 100 percent increase in the float of their own stock for the privilege of winding up with the worthless trash that the Andover.net bunch dumped at the very first opportunity.
On3 0f 7H3 m0Z7 cyn1c4L d34LZ R3c3n7Ly 1nv0Lv3Z 7H3 m3RG3R 0f 7w0 Z0f7w4R3 c0mp4n13Z 7Ry1nG 70 c4ZH 1n 0n 7H3 L1nux 0p3R471nG ZyZ73m cR4z3: 4nd0v3R.n37 1nc. 0f 4c70n, M4ZZ., 4nd V4 L1nux SyZ73mZ 1nc. 0f Sunnyv4L3, C4L1f.--wH1cH w3n7 pubL1c w17H1n 24 H0uRZ 0f 34cH 07H3R b4ck 1n 34RLy D3c3mb3R. L3ZZ 7H4n 31GH7 w33kZ L473R, 0n F3b. 3, 7H3 7w0 c0mp4n13Z 4nn0unc3d 4 Z70ck-f0R-Z70ck m3RG3R 1n wH1cH 7H3 C4L1f0Rn14 c0mp4ny H4Z 4GR33d 70 4cqu1R3 7H3 M4ZZ4cHuZ377Z cR0wd f0R 4b0u7 6 m1LL10n ZH4R3Z 0f V4 L1nux 4nd $60 m1LL10n 1n c4ZH. 7H3 cyn1c1Zm 1n 7H3 7R4nZ4c710n 1Z n07 Z1mpLy 7H47 7H3 d34L 700k pL4c3 Z0 ZH0ck1nGLy Z00n 4f73R 7H3 7w0 c0mp4n13Z wR4pp3d up 7H31R 1.P.O.'Z, bu7 7H47 7H3 7R4nZ4c710n 1ncLud3d wH47 4m0un73d 70 4 L3G4L1z3d bR1b3 0n 7H3 p4R7 0f 7H3 V4 L1nux buncH 70 G37 7H3 4nd0v3R.n37 cR0wd 70 4cc3p7 7H3 0ff3R. 7H3 d34L m34nZ 7H47 7H3 $60 m1LL10n 1n c4ZH fR0m V4 L1nux w1LL G0 d1R3c7Ly 70 4nd0v3R.n37'Z ZH4R3H0Ld3RZ, 47 $3.81 p3R ZH4R3, 1n 3ff3c7 H4nd1nG 0v3R 7H3 Z4m3 4m0un7 0f m0n3y 4nd0v3R.n37 R41Z3d 1n 7H3 1.P.O. 0nLy w33kZ 34RL13R. PR10R 70 7H3 1.P.O., 7H3 c0mp4ny'Z 1nZ1d3RZ H4d 0nLy p41d 4 GR4nd 7074L 0f $15.7 m1LL10n 1n c4ZH 1n70 7H3 c0mp4ny. N0w 7H3y 4R3 b31nG H4nd3d b4ck $60 m1LL10n 4Z c0mp3nZ4710n. WH47 4 d34L. 4Z f0R 1nv3Z70RZ 1n V4 L1nux, 7H3y 4R3 G3771nG H0Z3d. 7H3 c0mp4ny'Z Z70ck w4Z pR1c3d 1n 7H3 1.P.O. 47 $30 p3R ZH4R3, bu7 0p3n3d f0R 7R4d1nG 47 $299 4nd 1nZ74n7Ly ZH07 70 $320, 7H3n c0LL4pZ3d L1k3 m4ny 0f 7H3 07H3RZ 4nd 31GH7 w33kZ L473R 1Z n0w Z3LL1nG f0R $110. F4c3d w17H 39.7 m1LL10n 7074L ZH4R3Z 0u7Z74nd1nG 4LR34dy--0f wH1cH 0nLy 4.4 m1LL10n 4R3 H3Ld by 7H3 G3n3R4L pubL1c--1nv3Z70RZ 1n 7H3 Z70ck c4n n0w L00k f0Rw4Rd 70 7H3 1mm1n3n7 R3G1Z7R4710n 0f 4 m1LL10n m0R3 ZH4R3Z by 7H3 c0mp4ny, wH1cH w1LL d0ub7L3ZZ c0m3 p0uR1nG 1n70 7H3 m4Rk37 Z00n 7H3R34f73R, 7H4nkZ 70 7H3 4nd0v3R.n37 d34L. 1n 07H3R w0RdZ, 7H3 0nLy R34LLy v4Lu4bL3 4ZZ37 4nd0v3R.n37 3v3R H4d--17Z c4ZH fR0m 7H3 1.P.O.--w4Z cR34m3d 0ff by 7H3 c0mp4ny'Z 1nZ1d3RZ 4Lm0Z7 7H3 v3Ry 1nZ74n7 7H3y G07 7H31R H4ndZ 0n 17, L34v1nG V4 L1nux'Z ZH4R3H0Ld3RZ 70 f4c3 4 100 p3Rc3n7 1ncR34Z3 1n 7H3 fL047 0f 7H31R 0wn Z70ck f0R 7H3 pR1v1L3G3 0f w1nd1nG up w17H 7H3 w0R7HL3ZZ 7R4ZH 7H47 7H3 4nd0v3R.n37 buncH dump3d 47
1. Serial ATA is an internal standard, Firewire is an external standard (although it can be used internally). Explain to me why Apple includes ATA drives inside the G4 when it has an internal Firewire port?
2a. You do not need topology internal to the computer. So hubs and daisychaining is meaningless.
2b. Since four ports of Serial ATA could technically operate in parallel (the bandwidth is not shared), four devices have a combined available bandwidth of 600 MB/s, as opposed to firewire's 400 Mbps (~40 MB/s)
2c. The max bandwidth of firewire, 3.2 Gbps, is ~320 MB/s, making it about the same speed as two Serial ATA ports running at the initial speed (which is not the maximum bandwidth)
3. Serial ATA is a point to point protocol. There is no master.
4. Serial ATA is already supported under both windows and linux, past the extent of IEEE1394. This is because Serial ATA uses the same protocol as regular ATA, and thus works exactly the same on an OS level. Unless you look at the chipset, the OS probably will not know it isn't using parallel ATA.
5. ATA is a cheaper solution than Firewire. Currently all firewire drives are actually ATA drives with a ATA<->Firewire chip inside, so Serial ATA reduces their cost, as well as requires a smaller engineering cost to change the chips on the drive to be native Serial ATA.
6. <i>What should be done? IMNSHO, they should scrap the proprietary Serial-ATA interface, and adopt 1394 as the official Serial ATA standard.</i>
What makes you think that Serial ATA is a proprietary interface?? Why would it be any less of an open standard than Parallel ATA? At least you don't need to pay licensing fees for ATA.
This is my opinion, moderate down accordingly
Ooops! I guess that Apple's decision to require license fees for each Firewire connector was the first nail in Firewire's coffin...
See what happens when you'te too greedy? People just ignore you...
--
" It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky "
- 1. Serial ATA is an internal standard, Firewire is an external standard (although it can be used internally). Explain to me why Apple includes ATA drives inside the G4 when it has an internal Firewire port?
Because firewire drives aren't exactly ubiquitous.- 2a. You do not need topology internal to the computer. So hubs and daisychaining is meaningless.
Do you know what topology is? ATA has a topology. SCSI has a topology. In both cases, the controller card acts basically as a hub. Also, external SCSI devices have been daisychained for years (whereas internal ones have tended to be on parallel buses).- 2b. Since four ports of Serial ATA could technically operate in parallel (the bandwidth is not shared), four devices have a combined available bandwidth of 600 MB/s, as opposed to firewire's 400 Mbps (~40 MB/s)
Yes, but you're also still limited to two devices per controller, and I doubt we'll be seeing any motherboards with a bungload of controllers very soon. SCSI, on the other hand, started out with 7 devices per controller to begin with, and currently has 15 if memory serves.- 2c. The max bandwidth of firewire, 3.2 Gbps, is ~320 MB/s, making it about the same speed as two Serial ATA ports running at the initial speed (which is not the maximum bandwidth)
This is true. Now find an application in consumer devices (which is what both ATA and Firewire are designed for) where you need more than that, or even have the ability to use more than that.- 3. Serial ATA is a point to point protocol. There is no master.
So's firewire, except in an even looser sense, since you can have an arbitrary peer-to-peer connection between any two devices on the bus (which, admittedly, leads to some potential security concerns, and is why I wouldn't want an external port to be on the same bus as my hard drive)- 4. Serial ATA is already supported under both windows and linux, past the extent of IEEE1394. This is because Serial ATA uses the same protocol as regular ATA, and thus works exactly the same on an OS level. Unless you look at the chipset, the OS probably will not know it isn't using parallel ATA.
This is true. However, the ATA protocol in general is somewhat antiquated. Even getting more than four drives in a system is a horrible hack, and more than eight might as well not even be considered.- 5. ATA is a cheaper solution than Firewire. Currently all firewire drives are actually ATA drives with a ATAFirewire chip inside, so Serial ATA reduces their cost, as well as requires a smaller engineering cost to change the chips on the drive to be native Serial ATA.
As someone else already pointed out in this thread, there's firewire chips for around $5, which are considerably cheaper, AFAIK, than the current crop of parallel ATA chips. Also, it'll probably be a while before serial ATA drives aren't setup in the same way - a parallel ATA drive with a serial ATA convertor on it.- 6.
- What should be done? IMNSHO, they should scrap the proprietary Serial-ATA interface, and adopt 1394 as the official Serial ATA standard. What makes you think that Serial ATA is a proprietary interface?? Why would it be any less of an open standard than Parallel ATA? At least you don't need to pay licensing fees for ATA.
I'm not the poster you're responding to, so your question doesn't apply to my response, and actually, I agree with your point, but for the sake of argument: $0.25/computer isn't exactly bank-breaking, and you don't even have to call it that if you call it something other than Firewire AFAIK (for example, if you call it IEEE1394 there's no problem, or you can make up yet another new name for it like Sony did).---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Really, comparing the before and after of ATA and Serial ATA?
Parallel ATA picture-lots of ribbon cables and power supply cables, looks like your typical floppy, CD, single hard drive setup.
Serial ATA picture-just a single serial(two or four conductor wire) for each drive. No power. I guess that those Serial ATA drives (floppy too?) won't require 5v and 12v power. or at least will only pull 40mAh or so...
oh well, it is a nice concept, but the pictures are a bit misleading.
Interested in the Colorado Lottery or Powerball games?
check out http://colotto.com
Serial ATA will only make sense if you can connect more than two damned devices to the chain.
If you had read the article, you would know that Serial-ATA is nothing like conventional IDE, and is a serial design, with a low-pin-count connector and a point-to-point design. You can have precisely one device connected to an SATA port. The idea is, of course, to have a bunch of SATA ports on the mainboard (you should be able to stuff six or eight in the space needed for existing 40-pin ATA ports).
Personally, I prefer firewire, which does support daisy-chaining.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Does anyone know if Serial ATA will support more than 4 devices?
First, the article states quite clearly that Serial ATA is a point-to-point protocol. This means one and only one device connected per port. As SATA also has a low pin count, the plan is to have more SATA ports on the mainboard. You could probably fit six or eight SATA ports in the space needed for two 40-pin ATA ports.
Second, ATA has a limitation of two devices per bus (port). You get four devices by having two ATA ports. Want six devices? Use three ATA ports. Most likely, you'll need to buy an add-in ATA controller, as I've never seen or heard of a mainboard with more then two on-board ATA ports. Of course, ATA is incredibly brain-damaged, and generally requires an IRQ per bus on PCs (or breaks compatibility with many things). The answer to that, of course, is not to use ATA... :)
And no, I can't afford the inflated price of SCSI.
You can afford all that nifty hardware, but you cannot afford an extra $30 per device in order to get a bus that actually works and performs well? Well, your loss. :-) Me, I've been running an all-SCSI system for some time, and I love it. No looking back for me!
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
The same is true for Serial ATA drives. You can bet that the first Serial ATA drives will NOT be cheaper than equivalent Parallel ATA drives. That will only happen as they ramp the volume.
If there was customer demand, they could start ramping production of 1394 drives now. Why should we wait until mid 2001 for them to start ramping Serial ATA? (I addressed this question in my earlier post.)
You need a non-trivial topology any time you want to hook up more devices than you have dedicated ports. If manufactured in equivalent quantities, hardware support for four 1394 ports (at 3.2 Gbps by 2001) should not cost more than four Serial ATA ports. Sure, but why compare two Serial ATA ports to only one 1394 port? With either interface the per-port cost will be about the same, but 1394 will offer 3.2 Gbps at about the same time that Serial ATA 1X will offer 1.5 Gbps. Probably sooner, in fact. Of course there's a master. The computer is the master; the disk drive is the slave. 1394 supports any mix of masters and slaves. If all you want to do is add one disk drive to a PC, you don't need that capability. But why restritct yourself if you don't have to? If you want to realize the claimed 1.5 Gbps performance of Serial ATA 1X, you'll probably need a different hardware-level register interface, with different device driver software (at the lowest level; some higher-level driver code may stay the same).It is true that 1394 hardware interfaces are not register-compatible with ATA ports, but 1394 drivers are already written.
Parallel ATA is cheaper today because it is manufactured in high volumes. Neither Serial ATA nor 1394 drives will be cheaper than Parallel ATA until and unless drives incorporating those interface start get manufactured in high volumes. Once the volumes are that high, Serial ATA or 1394 drives should be cheaper to manufacture than Parallel ATA, because they can use chips with lower pin counts, smaller board footprint, and fewer connector pins or edge fingers.Since both Serial ATA or 1394 offer the potential for higher performance than Parallel ATA at lower cost, but both would cost about the same amount, why not prefer the one with greater flexibility and performance.
Bad choice of words on my part. What I really meant was "a new and incompatible interface". Why use one of those, instead of a superior existing interface?I've sorta been hoping for the demise of ATA/IDE and then THIS news comes along. Of course other people have said it but I will too. IDE is a naturally inferior device interface in these times of lots of internal drives and massive amounts of storage. IDE has been one of the key determining factors in the shape and design of current PCs. Mid-towers are by far the most popular case design out now and even the desktop design before that only had four internal bays, as do most towers you can find now. There are only four bays because that is the limit on IDE drives unless you have an IDE expension card. ATA-100 is just stupid in my opinion, with a limit of devices per channel there's no way in hell to max out a channel's bandwidth unless you have a solid state drive. Even IF you maxed out two drives their internal transfer doesn't even come close to the max amount of bandwidth you have available. Not only is there a bunch of bandwidth wasted each drive needs an IRQ and DMA address, SCSI/FireWire only need a single DMA and IRQ since addressing is done between the devices and the controller. I've been chanting for IEEE 1394 to take over internal and external higher bandwidth devices and relagating USB to interfaces and small bandwidth outputs. Having one 400Mb/s (approx 50MB/s) bus would be really efficient for internal drives. Your 10x DVD and 7200rpm hard drive MIGHT fill up the wire but they'd need to be running full transfer at the same time. Even then you could just put other devices on another wire (like the S-ATA shematic). I support FireWire systems in the future for several reasons: less internal addresses used, super duper simple installation, fault tolerance, identical internal and external interface. Less internal addresses is good for the person who buys a full tower and fills it up with toys, easy installation helps everyone, fault tolerance means a loose cable won't totalfuck your RAID, and identical interfaces means removable drives or easily transportable devices that natively support hot swapping. As for USB 2.0 whoopdefrick.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
cos USB is gonna kill you on video and hard drives.
;)
USB for low-bandwith devices - keyboards, mice, consumer printers (real men use ethernet printers
Firewire for high-bandwith devices - hard drives, digital audio/video, high-end scanners (the kind that cost more than your car and if misused could sterilize you)
Note that you don't really want to use either for your monitor - think about how much data 1600x1200x24 bits, 30 times a second _is_. Give it its own damn bus.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
The big problem with USB devices is installing device drivers. It doesn't "just work" because you can't guarantee that there are working drivers for it. So I propose this: Spec for devices to contain enough flash memory for drivers for the target platforms. So, a mouse might contain 4mb of flash memory to contain basic drivers for the various Windows, Mac, even Linux. When the device is plugged in, the drivers are grabbed via some low level USB protocol, and installed on the fly. Furthermore, if you get newer drivers off a Web site, they can be flashed back to the device again. Why don't we have this now? I want it. I want it.
Doesn't the Firewire tax only apply to the use of the trademark "Firewire"? From what I gathered, if you call it by the official (and much less sexy) name IEEE1394, you pay nothing.
"...for the sake of argument: $0.25/computer isn't exactly bank-breaking..."
Most OEM's try to save and scrimp every penny on production that they possibly can, because small differences in price start to add up in quantities of 10000 or more. That $0.25 per computer would equal $2500 across 10000 computers. (Just keep adding zeros, it adds up pretty quick.) That extra expense is that much money that the OEM isn't making in profit. It boils down to the problem of the production going to the lowest bidder, or in this case, the part with the lowest price. Parts that have royalty fees attached to them (take firewire and rambus as examples) tend to be overlooked more often than parts that are more freely/cheaply available, even if/when the alternative is less advanced in terms of technology. In a business sense, it's all about profit, not necessarily about what should or should not be done.
Yes, the picture at AnandTech of the serial cabeling looks really nice indeed.
BUT, what happened to the power cabeling?
Nicely tucked behind the power supply and no power connects to the drives. I would like to see those tiny cables deliver the Amps necessary to drive the HD motor.
Oh, yes, and it seems like the Floppy drive has migrated to serial ATA as well - Yeah right!
Big marketing trick! - but why should Anand play the Intel Marketing drums? Remarkably uncritical article nonetheless.
But the computer industry is all about momentum. How long will you wait for something which is "real soon now" for such a long time?
The real problem is not getting the bits from A to B. The software abstraction layers, descriptors and class definitions were the parts that took the most time in the USB standards commitees. Microsoft's insistence on making USB one more jewel on Windows 98's crown also contributed a significant delay.
But this is nothing compared to how long 1394 is taking. An environment with no single master is much more complex. But you should also take into account the commitee effect - they have vast plans with cute acronyms to make it take control of everything in your house. Yeah, sure.
USB 2.0 will be identical to 1.1 from the operating system's point of view. It will use the same class drivers and in some cases the same vendor-supplied drivers. This will enable it to reach the market in a relatively short time.
It's not that I'm "pro USB" and "anti 1394" - both have interesting features the the other lacks. It's just reality.
----
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
1600x1200x24x60/8=345.6 MB/s.
Its going to have to wait for USB3.0 I guess. The question is what is more effort: A little more design with the USB 3.0 standard or one less different cable for the end users.
Video card makers could make more efficient use of the bandwidth where they only peak at that number, just send the information that changes fron frame to frame, kind of MPEGish, but without the blocks.
The reason I am also pushing this is to only get the stores to sell one type of cable. The 4$ cables they sell for $35 because the pins are gold plated, give me a break. With one type of cable, price gouging would almost surely go away.
How many serial ATA devises can a system support most systems today are limited to 6 or less and that's only if you add a second controller that may sound like plenty but by the time you add a couple hard drives a dvd ROM a CD-ROM a zip drive a orb drive and if they ever set a standard for it a dvd +rw drive and a cdrw your out of luck for any thing else. Also they didn't mention any specifics about how it works with multiple drives unless it has changed with the current ATA 33 and 66 standards ATA relied on switching witch meant that it couldn't access more that one drive at a time. Which means that your performance is going to start to suffer if your machine tries too read from different disks at the same time the last thing is more a rant than a question when are they going to add more system resources? This being limited to 15 IRQ's and a hand full of dma's is a major pain in the ass. All the new systems coming out with ridicule numbers of pci slots and things like usb integrated on the motherboard that take resources I would like to add a hardware mpg card but the only way I can do it is to remove some thing
I've never noticed it before but my thinking cap does sort of resemble a hockey helmet
I think that Intel is making some really stupid choice lately:
1) Rambus vs DDR SDRAM: every memory manufacturers was against Rambus, because they would have to pay royalties to Rambus, and that the size of silicon would be much greater, and that DDR SDRAM would be much cheaper with similar performances.
The result is that we're starting only now to have very pricey Rambus (after the i820 chipset disaster) and that Intel now tells that they would use Rambus for desktop and DDR SDRAM for server..
DOES IT MAKE SENSE to use a (according to Intel) better and more expensive Rambus technology for desktop and a cheaper memory technology for servers ?
If Intel had been less stubborn, we would have now DDR SDRAM at only a marginal increase of price... Thanks Intel, really!
2) USB vs Firewire vs ATA, if Intel had pushed firewire into PC instead pushing USB and ATA, in one year we would have true firewire HDD, and it would make cheaper PC because there is only a need for two bus: a cheap low-power one, for keybords, mouse and a fast one for HDD, linking to high speed external devices.
Thanks to Intel, in 5 years we will still have USB-1, USB-2 (if it is released), ATA, Firewire (for anyone who wants to use a DV camera) instead of just USB-1 and Firewire.
Some could say that Apple's charging 0.25$ per Firewire port is the problem, but I don't think that it is too expensive, Intel's NIH syndrome is the major culprit here.
What puzzles me if why Intel competitors do not include Firewire in their chipset, it would be a major selling point for customers, if given the choice which chipset will they choose if someone explain them that if they choose the Intel one, if they buy a DV camera, they would have to buy also a ($100 ?) extention card to use it with their PC?
AMD, VIA are you listening ? I want DDR SDRAM and Firewire in not too expensive chipsets!
i've been thinking about this a great deal over the last minute and a half, and i realized something very important: an ibook beowulf cluster would, indeed, be a pretty cool idea. one word: Airport.
Airport would serve wonderfully as the high-speed private network Beowulf requires. and it would very much help with logistics-- no cabling required, which makes things a LOT easier. hell, you could just take the ibooks and stack them in the corner of the room. no messy cables or overloaded hubs.
While ibooks themselves would maybe be a tad expensive to buy them for just this purpose-- after all, you're paying for an LCD screen you won't use-- i'm wondering about what happens when iBooks start getting passed out to grade school students. Think about it; you've got about 20, 30 children per room. ach one is holding an ibook, and most of these are going unused for most of the time. So install the beowulf software on each ibook and have the school network propigate tasks to be used with the spare processor cycles. Suddenly this isn't a grade school anymore; it's a _supercomputer_, with upward of a couple hundred parrallel ibook nodes. This would go beyond cracking RC5 or ripping mp3s for the school administrator; you could actually rent out task time on the ibook beowulf the way they rent out supercomputers at universities. It would be a lot less reliable in terms of exact time because the students would be using some of the computing power to themselves, but still it could work pretty good, and maybe give some extra money to the schools. our schools are underfunded anyway, and hell- if they did something like this to bring in a little extra money, maybe they could _afford_ things like a decent computer network or computer teachers or laptops for the students.
And i'm sure the beowulf software would run wonderfully on the BSD core of mac os x. How well would Beowulf run in a loosely structured dynamic environment such as a school where the nodes of the network are being periodically individually shuffled around into different physical areas of the network, of out of it?
just a thought.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Theres a couple of serial SCSI interfaces.
Lets not forget where the standard for those tailgate chips you mention came from.
Several posters have made comments that Apple has dropped their Firewire tax to a reasonable price of $0.25, so it shouldn't be a problem.
There's a little casualty issue here. Apple only dropped their prices *after* other companies began casting about for alternatives. Here's a MacKiDo quote concerning a 3 port solution: "Apple is now seeking US$3 in royalties on a 1394 chipset that sells for less than US$5." They go on to say that it was possible that "some of Apple's competitors--perhaps like Intel--are being charged higher licensing fees than those cooperating with the Macintosh platform." We don't know if that's true, but if Apple attempted to use 1394 as a weapon, then the reasons for USB 2.0 and Serial ATA are obvious.
Intel could have changed course after Apple dropped their prices, but sometimes projects acquire a life of their own once started. Intel did not charge any royalities for the original USB and announced that they planned to do the same for USB 2.0, so it's got a lot of external support as well. Plus, I haven't seen any guarantees from Apple that they won't raise the tax again if Firewire becomes the standard.
> As someone else already pointed out in this
> thread, there's firewire chips for around $5
That figure seems to be somewhat anecdotal. I'd like to see some facts backing it up. AFAIK the slowest-speed node on Firewire is still 100 Mbps, which is a lot of bandwidth for a lowly micro. OTOH a low-speed USB node of 1.5 Mbps can be implemented completely with an 8051 or less. That's why you start seeing a proliferation of cheap USB devices--many are low speed, don't require a 12 Mbps chipset, and can be implemented with a micro that might be doing all the other work as well. Because, frankly, even complete USB chipsets aren't that cheap.
Uwe Wolfgang Radu
Most of the general computing public never even open their computers, and do very few upgrades. The /. readership, I believe, is more of an enthusiast group. Sure, we're sick of opening PCs and dealing with ribbon cables, but this is not necessarily the factor that will drive execs and engineers to design new standards which will be good for the enthusiast.
What companies will make is what will be cheapest to manufacture and integrate with today's technology, look the best on paper (and ads), and what will offer the consumer the greatest opportunity to buy more peripherals.
With the convergence of video, audio, and computer technologies, IEEE 1394 does offer an excellent opportunity for the computer industry to adopt a standard which will integrate consumer electronics with PCs. Apple realizes this. USB seems like a great replacement for serial and parallel I/O, but it's not ready right now.
Of course, USB 2.0 and Serial ATA will enjoy the same advantages that have given Intel architecture and IDE technology their long standing in the industry. There is a difference, which is that computers are not nearly as expensive as they were 10 years ago. The industry can afford to dump old technology in place of commodity items.
-- Bird in the Bush: The Renewable Energy Blog http://www.birdinthebush.org
Firewire devices ARE all SCSI at the moment, which is part of why the hard drives are so damn expensive.
That is totally wrong.
Some FW devices, like DV cams, are "pure" 1394.
Some FW devices, like hard drives, are IDE and use a bridge chip.
The hard drives are not that expensive by the way. You can get an IDE bridge case for less than $150. Buy your favorite IDE drive. You now have a FireWire device.
For instance, Buy.com is/was selling FW bridge cases for around $110. Pair that with a Maxtor 27.2GB 7200rpm drive at $200 (or less) and you have a high capacity high speed external FireWire drive for less than $310. That is not a bad price considering the convenience and advantages of FireWire.
Ben
I think there are a few details people tend to forget when comparing Serial ATA to Firewire:
1: All of those extra features Firewire has means more complexity, more problems, and longer development times. One of the biggest things ATA has going for it is that it's so simple. Since the master (the OS) deals with command queuing, error recovery, etc., the devices can be stupid, and stupid is easy to design. Quoting from the article:
"They've made it clear that they're focused on providing a Parallel ATA replacement without adding too many bells and whistles to weigh down the specification and increase the cost of implementation."
2: Changing a product to Serial ATA requires almost exclusively a hardware change, while changing to Firewire would require hardware, software, and firmware changes. From my experiences with SCSI and Fibre Channel devices, I'm guessing that switching from ATA to Firewire will require more than just swapping out a protocol chip to give the drive enough smarts to handle the additional protocol overhead. I doubt ATA devices have anything similar to a standard microprossesor, but more complicated protocols require complex protocol chips with stuff like full RISC cores in them.
3: Backwards compatibility is cool. It's so much easier for a company to jump on the new bandwagon if they've got a net to catch them in the form of a parallel to serial ATA converter. They don't have to worry about "when will all of the other companies support Firewire, so someone will buy my product?"
4: In the low-margins market of desktop computers, a $0.25 licencing fee for Firewire still matters. Think of $0.25 per drive in the volumes that a drive manufacture deals with.
To quote from the article, "Most important is the fact that Serial ATA is software/register compatible with Parallel ATA, which means there is no need to rewrite anything at the driver or OS level."
Which means that Linux and Windows already support it, and not merely "to some extent".
Firewire is by far the technologically superior standard. I like technologically superior tools; that's why I have two Beta VCRs rotting in my attic. But I think SATA is going to be very popular for internally-connected devices like disk and tape drives, if only so manufacturers can avoid the higher cost of adopting an entirely new standard instead of just building off the existing one. As a manufacturer, which would you rather do: hand the team a full specification and tell them to implement it, or give them your existing code base and say, "hack this so it does I/O one bit at a time instead of eight"?
--
This is not my sandwich.
I recently bought a USB mouse, the MouseMan Wheel, because I wanted to a) have a wheel everyone's been talking about, b) move my current mouse to my full-time linux box (as opposed to my linux/win98 timeshare box), and c) because I like the idea of a USB and want to support it, and I think the connectors are really cool, and, yes, serial and ps/2 suck and I don't like them.
Well, the mouse was auto-detected properly and all sorts of cool stuff, but then it would run for a bit, and then freeze my computer. Not just the mouse, but the whole computer. I upgraded the drivers, various things like that, but it still kept doing it, so I just plugged it into the ps/2 adapter and so now I have a ps/2 mouse. I don't know if it's my USB (motherboard and/or drivers) or my mouse drivers or what. I sure am glad Logitech provides all the different forms of connectors, though. So, yeah, that's my little story, my only experience with USB, I hope you all liked it.
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
>I suppose you wonder why you get fragged so much these morons using
>USB mice. A USB mouse is way smoother than a good ole PS/2 mouse. I
>hear people whine about cheating because no human can aim that fast
>without cheating. If you can't hold your own then you need to get
>better and/or get better equipment or deal with it.
Eh? I'm not a gamer you moron. I could care less about playing Quake or the rest of those stupid ass games. You gamer losers really need to get over yourselves. USB keyboards and mice are a fucking stupid idea when nothing's really wrong with ps/2-serial mice and keyboards. A USB mouse or keyboard is nothing but a "solution" in search of a problem....
This doesn't sound like fun if you have USB keyboard and mouse.
If its true, its more of a bad joke with Win2K than a problem with USB, but still...
Take it easy.
Couldn't you do serial ATA with FireWire and a software intermediate layer?
Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
SCSI is busmaster-based: only one drive can use the bus at a time. FireWire is packet-based, so a number of drives that can't hit 50MB/s taken individually can share the bus and saturate it.
I don't know the details of the FireWire standard/protocol, but it seems that fast controllers and a complex protocol make designing the devices expensive. So, I'd say FireWire for everything fast, ADB for cheap+quickly designed crap.
Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
Ex-queez me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what Firewire is for?? And wasn't 1394 first developed for the PC market originally??
I'm not afraid of the dark. Far from it. Just.... only when the lights are off!
From anyone else's point of view, that's still anecdotal. AFAIK, the only authoritative way to get pricing on the chips is to get quotes from the vendors.
Certainly they are. You can get the silicon for a low speed (1.5 Mbps) USB device from Cypress for under $1 in volume; the high-speed (12 Mbps) chips aren't much more.It's either all or nothing. I think that mixing USB/regular stuff is a mess. I sort of see it like mixing object pascal and C++ together to make a program. Even though it works fine, it is sort of messy. If I want to use USB, I only want to have to fool with USB; meaning that I want to plug everything into my computer with USB ports (hd,nic,monitor,sound?). Right now, maybe this would be possibly but there is definately a lack of options (hardware) and support.
I bet you have things on your computer that don't fit into the usb or rj45 category..like harddrive or monitor as someone mentioned
Boy, are you a moron or just incredibly dense? There is *plenty* wrong with the old PS/2 system. Is it hot-swap/PnP? Some systems complain bitterly if the mouse is swapped in real time.
Can I plug my mouse into the keyboard PS/2 port? Oh, they're ports with only one use you say? That's not very useful for anyone, there's no difference between the way the ports look. Why should things that look so different have such different functionality?
Can I daisy chain my mouse to my keyboard with PS/2? No? Well that sucks for cabling. Look at monitors w/ USB. There's a space saver. One cable going back behind your computer. And with the hub right in front of you, you can just plug and unplug what you do or don't need. That's what USB is supposed to mean.
Then there's the whole concept of resolution. High resolution mice aren't just for 'gamer morons.' Think CAD. Think graphics.
Simplicity, elegance, power. That's USB. Serial/Parallel/PS2 are past their time. Hell, Apple's ADB did better then all those 10 fscking years ago. We're long overdue an update.
>Boy, are you a moron or just incredibly dense? There is *plenty* wrong
>with the old PS/2 system. Is it hot-swap/PnP? Some systems complain
>bitterly if the mouse is swapped in real time.
Yeah right. Like I'm going to be swaping mice or anything else every time I turn on my computer. Get real loser.