Posted by
Hemos
on from the just-finish-already dept.
marks writes, "Wired has an article about the Genome Project. The article takes quotes from doctors who want the squabbling over 'property rights' to stop and the project to go forward to benefit patients. "
Begun in 1990, the U.S. Human Genome Project is a 13-year effort coordinated by the U.S. Department of Energy and the National Institutes of Health.
Aparently, there is no profit motive here... instead, there is a rare glimpse into a government (well, OK, pone government, but I suspect other countries of the same benevolence) actually doing what most people think it should do: support and enhance the common good. Let's stop and savor that for a moment...
Mmmmmmmmm.
OK, that out of the way, I have to admit that in some senses, you're right. For the individual researchers on the project, this is the meal ticket! The mother lode! After working on this baby, they'll be able to get a job anywhere in the industry... as long as their work is recognized. As long as other people can examine it and judge it as worthy. As long as it is - dare I say it? - open.
Look at the Human Genome Project not as an excercise in biotechnology, but a bunch of gene hackers trying to earn a reputation and build something they can be proud of, and I think you'll find a lot of parallels between these folks and the ones who created the foundation of the internet lo so many moons ago.
-- "Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
I think there's a more general point to be made about this, beyond the matter of Gene Patents. When I read these articles, I sense an attitude of "we need to get the profit out of medicine, so we can help more people." This is just ludicrious, and is one of the reasons that socialized medicine is a failure wherever it's tried. There's a reason that the US has by far the best health care in the world, and by far the best medical research in the world.
It's called profit. Sure, we could force CRA to throw away the millions of dollars they've spent in indexing the genome faster than anyone else. But that would not be in the best interest of society, because that sets a precedent that anyone who comes up with an innovation will have it deemed in "society's best interest" and be pressured to put in the public domain. Who needs the abuse?
We are far better off letting the market be efficient, and letting companies like CRA and others do what they do best -- which is innovate in the area of genetics. CRA is not going to hoard the information, they are going to license it.
We will get results far, far faster letting the free market do the work with normal economic incentives, rather than letting a bunch of government researchers take decades to do something with the information.
--
They are not patenting the sequences.
by
Dirtside
·
· Score: 4
The patents that have been issued on the human genome are not patents for the sequences themselves; they are patents for processes of testing for the PRESENCE of those sequences. In theory this wouldn't be a problem, except that the patents that are being granted are patents for *ANY PROCESS* that tests for the presence of those sequences, not any particular process. So it's wrong, but not for the reason everyone seems to think.
Also, there are two competing gene projects. One is the Human Genome Project, which is publicly funded and all of whose results are immediately put into the public domain; the other is run (mostly) by a private corporation called Celera Genomics, partnered with other companies. They're the ones getting the patents, which hopefully will be thrown out.
-- "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Exactly. Now the REAL concern here is ...
by
P_Simm
·
· Score: 4
The article discusses Celera and the HGP sharing information on the maps they've made, so as to build on each other's information and finish their projects earlier.
Now, if Celera gives full disclosure of their databases to the HGP, and the HGP uses that information to refine their own map, and the HGP's map is given out to researchers for FREE, then what does Celera have left to gain financially from their work? This is the real concern - for Celera to profit from this initiative, they by definition HAVE to retain some information from HGP, or else get the HGP to agree to some form of non-disclosure.
This article had nothing to do with genome patents (although if they're out there, they should be a concern of course). It's a scenario where corporate collaboration with a non-profit project could end up forcing the non-profit group to have limits placed on what information they can release, and how fully they can benefit the public.
--
You know what to do with the HELLO.
Help create an open-source world...
After all, didn't those guys INVENT the human genome?
What? They didn't? They discovered it then, huh? That counts for something...
Didn't do that either? You mean all they did was make a record of something that's been around for millions of years, and that we've known about for most of a century?
Sure, that discovery is worth something. Not sure what... A six pack of beer maybe...
The last time a gene patenting issue came up, I had an email exchange with Hemos encouraging him to describe the situation more accurately in his postings. Now we get another story and all 13 nonzero comments, as of this writing, have the same misconceptions about gene patenting. So let's try this again:
Genes are not patentable - applications based on a gene sequence are
No, no one can patent blue eyes and charge you a royalty fee
No, you can't just sequence a gene and get patent rights on it. You have to do something with it. The standard of "doing something" needs to be defined better and probably set higher, but the idea that somebody will "own the genome" is false.
What is patentable is identifying the role of a sequence in a disease and charging a royalty for diagnostics or therapies based on that sequence
The fact that the article describes Celera as a "longstanding" competitor to the Genome Project makes me question the quality of the journalism there. Of course, so does the fact that it appeared in Wired.
Maybe we can get an Everything listing to explain these things in genome-related stories, instead of the same misconceptions popping up every time.
I was of the understanding that the human genome project was funded and overseen by the United States Department of Energy? Doesn't this more or less nullify patenting of that information?
How can you patent the mapping of the human genome? That's like patenting the mapping of the North American continent. Perhaps you can copyright a specific map that you've designed and drawn of the continent, but patent it?
I can understand patenting a specific process they may have used, which may be unique, to uncover and map the human genomes, but not the map itself. If they copyrighted the map, though, I would understand. That would also leave it open to other people and organizations to produce their own maps -- just like countless people have produced and released maps of North America. None of them are breaking any patent or copyright law by doing so.
I do not see any right given here beyond copyrighting this information. And doing so would not prevent anyone in the world from creating new technologies and treatments with this information. If they used this information, they would need to pay for it -- just like I would have to pay for acopy of Rand Mcnally's Road Atlas if I wanted to plan a trip across the country. McNally neither owns the country or the right to make maps of the country. But they do own a copyright on the individual map I am using to make my trip.
I would think that anyone who wants to make their own map of the human genome would be welcome to. They could then copyright or GPL their map -- or whatever else they wish to do with it.
I admit that this project brings amazing information and possibilities within our grasp, but we all must also admit that this was no trivial thing. This is a massive project which has taken massive funding and hundreds of man-years (minimally) to accomplish. If this was a private endeavor, it should be that private orgnaization's right to distribute and limit the information however they wish. If, however, the project was largely a public/government undertaking (as has always been my understanding) then this information needs to be freely available without restriction. --- icq:2057699 seumas.com
Knees are jerking quickly, I'm sure, but people need to understand that there are some rights here that are of concern, but they are not what you think. Not rights to the human genome itself, but rights to a particular map of the human genome.
Today, maps are copyrighted, and for good reason. If I go out and spend millions surveying an area so that I can print an accurate map, I should be protected by copyright. Another person shouldn't be allowed to xerox my maps and then undercut my price. I deserve to be compensated for my investment. I don't own the information the maps are based on (the locations of cities and such). I own the my particular collection of it. While no own can legally copy my maps, they can go survey the area themselves and produce their own map. I suspect most people would find that eminantly fair. The person who does the work gets the money.
This is really no different. If Cerela creates a map of the human genome, they deserve the right to copyright their database of the human genome. That is only fair. However, they do not deserve the right to copyright the human genome itself. And, AFAIK, they aren't trying to.
In other words, if you want a copy of what Celera did, you should have to pay them. That is only fair. If you don't want to pay them, then you are perfectly free to extract your own DNA and create your own map of the human genome. They can't stop you. You can then sell your database, which you can certainly copyright yourself.
This is no different from geographical maps. No one "owns" the arrangement of geographical features in the world. Lots of mapmakers own their own particular collection of data concerning those features. That's the difference.
Perhaps a better example: If I write a book that describes the Linux kernel in detail, I can certainly copyright that description and charge whatever the hell I want for it. No one, not even Linus, can stop me. However, what I've copyrighted is my description of the Linux kernel, not the Linux kernel itself. This is no different. What Celera is talking about is not copyrighting the human genome, but copyrighting their description of the human genome.
Slashdot Mirror
This is impossible. You cannot remove the profit motive from scientific research except in periods of war or other danger.
Unfortunately for your argument, as the U.S. Human Genome Project home page points out,
Aparently, there is no profit motive here... instead, there is a rare glimpse into a government (well, OK, pone government, but I suspect other countries of the same benevolence) actually doing what most people think it should do: support and enhance the common good. Let's stop and savor that for a moment...
Mmmmmmmmm.
OK, that out of the way, I have to admit that in some senses, you're right. For the individual researchers on the project, this is the meal ticket! The mother lode! After working on this baby, they'll be able to get a job anywhere in the industry... as long as their work is recognized. As long as other people can examine it and judge it as worthy. As long as it is - dare I say it? - open .
Look at the Human Genome Project not as an excercise in biotechnology, but a bunch of gene hackers trying to earn a reputation and build something they can be proud of, and I think you'll find a lot of parallels between these folks and the ones who created the foundation of the internet lo so many moons ago.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Disclaimer: I'm a shareholder in CRA.
I think there's a more general point to be made about this, beyond the matter of Gene Patents. When I read these articles, I sense an attitude of "we need to get the profit out of medicine, so we can help more people." This is just ludicrious, and is one of the reasons that socialized medicine is a failure wherever it's tried. There's a reason that the US has by far the best health care in the world, and by far the best medical research in the world.
It's called profit. Sure, we could force CRA to throw away the millions of dollars they've spent in indexing the genome faster than anyone else. But that would not be in the best interest of society, because that sets a precedent that anyone who comes up with an innovation will have it deemed in "society's best interest" and be pressured to put in the public domain. Who needs the abuse?
We are far better off letting the market be efficient, and letting companies like CRA and others do what they do best -- which is innovate in the area of genetics. CRA is not going to hoard the information, they are going to license it.
We will get results far, far faster letting the free market do the work with normal economic incentives, rather than letting a bunch of government researchers take decades to do something with the information.
--
Also, there are two competing gene projects. One is the Human Genome Project, which is publicly funded and all of whose results are immediately put into the public domain; the other is run (mostly) by a private corporation called Celera Genomics, partnered with other companies. They're the ones getting the patents, which hopefully will be thrown out.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Now, if Celera gives full disclosure of their databases to the HGP, and the HGP uses that information to refine their own map, and the HGP's map is given out to researchers for FREE, then what does Celera have left to gain financially from their work? This is the real concern - for Celera to profit from this initiative, they by definition HAVE to retain some information from HGP, or else get the HGP to agree to some form of non-disclosure.
This article had nothing to do with genome patents (although if they're out there, they should be a concern of course). It's a scenario where corporate collaboration with a non-profit project could end up forcing the non-profit group to have limits placed on what information they can release, and how fully they can benefit the public.
You know what to do with the HELLO. ...
Help create an open-source world
After all, didn't those guys INVENT the human genome?
What? They didn't? They discovered it then, huh? That counts for something...
Didn't do that either? You mean all they did was make a record of something that's been around for millions of years, and that we've known about for most of a century?
Sure, that discovery is worth something. Not sure what... A six pack of beer maybe...
Gonzo
Maybe we can get an Everything listing to explain these things in genome-related stories, instead of the same misconceptions popping up every time.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
How can you patent the mapping of the human genome? That's like patenting the mapping of the North American continent. Perhaps you can copyright a specific map that you've designed and drawn of the continent, but patent it?
I can understand patenting a specific process they may have used, which may be unique, to uncover and map the human genomes, but not the map itself. If they copyrighted the map, though, I would understand. That would also leave it open to other people and organizations to produce their own maps -- just like countless people have produced and released maps of North America. None of them are breaking any patent or copyright law by doing so.
I do not see any right given here beyond copyrighting this information. And doing so would not prevent anyone in the world from creating new technologies and treatments with this information. If they used this information, they would need to pay for it -- just like I would have to pay for acopy of Rand Mcnally's Road Atlas if I wanted to plan a trip across the country. McNally neither owns the country or the right to make maps of the country. But they do own a copyright on the individual map I am using to make my trip.
I would think that anyone who wants to make their own map of the human genome would be welcome to. They could then copyright or GPL their map -- or whatever else they wish to do with it.
I admit that this project brings amazing information and possibilities within our grasp, but we all must also admit that this was no trivial thing. This is a massive project which has taken massive funding and hundreds of man-years (minimally) to accomplish. If this was a private endeavor, it should be that private orgnaization's right to distribute and limit the information however they wish. If, however, the project was largely a public/government undertaking (as has always been my understanding) then this information needs to be freely available without restriction.
---
icq:2057699
seumas.com
Today, maps are copyrighted, and for good reason. If I go out and spend millions surveying an area so that I can print an accurate map, I should be protected by copyright. Another person shouldn't be allowed to xerox my maps and then undercut my price. I deserve to be compensated for my investment. I don't own the information the maps are based on (the locations of cities and such). I own the my particular collection of it. While no own can legally copy my maps, they can go survey the area themselves and produce their own map. I suspect most people would find that eminantly fair. The person who does the work gets the money.
This is really no different. If Cerela creates a map of the human genome, they deserve the right to copyright their database of the human genome. That is only fair. However, they do not deserve the right to copyright the human genome itself. And, AFAIK, they aren't trying to.
In other words, if you want a copy of what Celera did, you should have to pay them. That is only fair. If you don't want to pay them, then you are perfectly free to extract your own DNA and create your own map of the human genome. They can't stop you. You can then sell your database, which you can certainly copyright yourself.
This is no different from geographical maps. No one "owns" the arrangement of geographical features in the world. Lots of mapmakers own their own particular collection of data concerning those features. That's the difference.
Perhaps a better example: If I write a book that describes the Linux kernel in detail, I can certainly copyright that description and charge whatever the hell I want for it. No one, not even Linus, can stop me. However, what I've copyrighted is my description of the Linux kernel, not the Linux kernel itself. This is no different. What Celera is talking about is not copyrighting the human genome, but copyrighting their description of the human genome.
The cake is a pie