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Can Indrema Beat Microsoft To the Punch?
Console gaming is a harshly competitive field, though, with Sony, Nintendo, and Sega (soon to be joined by Microsoft) clawing for reputation, marketshare and all-important game sales. Don't forget that three major players (Sega, Nintendo, Sony) can make a claim that neither Microsoft or Indrema can: their consoles exist, sell, and make people happy. A Playstation in the hand offers utility that "upcoming" devices can't match.
Still, it looks like the so-called X-Box from Microsoft is the machine Indrema's box would be running against, assuming that both of them actually reach the market. Similar specs and expansion capabilities mean that either could be enough computer for people interested primarily in games and getting online, who are looking for no more than a single no-hassle combination of these. That's why the Indrema machine isn't being sold as a gaming device, but rather as a Web Console, with copious references to "the future of TV."
The game-box as everything-box market has been promised for years, and keeps turning out to be either unsatisfying and limited (WebTV), or Yet Another Gaming Machine, despite promises to the contrary. Remember the ColecoVision ADAM? The real question seems to be whether a Linux-based console from an unknown company can survive in the gaming marketplace; after that we can worry about whether it will replace recipe books in the kitchen and the cable box in the living room. After all, that "everthing console" isn't technically impossible; it's just always fizzled as PCs have surpassed the jack-of-all-trades game machines in usefulness, if not in sizzle.
Now, for a minute, forget technical brilliance, forget flexibility, forget how cool it would be to run Linux on your bedside table. Think money, instead.
Microsoft's R&D budget is bigger than the GNP of many nations in the world. The Men In Redmond have enough marketing money to buy Superbowl advertising without batting an eye. You can bet when the X-Box launches, it will have been preceded by a canny stream of attention-building hype, that it will look sexy, and that it will sell at a carefully chosen price aimed at moving it as fast as they can be cranked out and still maximize profits. Likewise, Sega, Sony and Nintendo all have plenty of market savvy and established infrastructure, right down to magazines, distribution networks and strategically-released hints and easter eggs. Not only that, but they each have a hefty stable of games, including Hollywood-names and weird-but-true fandom games like Pokemon, as well legions of rabid fans to play them and design houses to keep 'em coming. It would take a hefty treasure chest (or a lot of faith) for a newcomer in the game market to get the kind of pop-culture deal that sells games based on Star Wars, The X-Files or even Barbie.
Now think money again, but in a different way. An open-source OS may save Indrema a few dollars per box in making the console, but since the guts of the machine they describe include 100Mb ethernet and loads of other ports, a 600MHz processor, and an optional hard drive, its price will probably be in line with that of the X-Box. That is to say, probably overlapping the price range and capabilities of low-end PCs, and without the same economies of scale that Microsoft will likely generate. Even so, since gaming consoles have traditionally been loss-leaders to sell high-margin games, will an open-OS machine be used to play primarily commercial, proprietary games?
If that's the case, then Indrema will have to scramble to provide enough hot-selling games to subsidize console sales. The Sony Playstation 2, already out in Japan and due in the US next fall, boasts more than 160 registered developers worldwide. And since it plays the first generation Playstation games as well, players can choose from more than 3,000 games. By contrast, the leap from NES to Nintendo 64 may have been too great for generational compatibility to have played much of a role, something that Sony has obviously learned from. Microsoft, meanwhile, may not have as large a signed-on group, but carries enough clout (and waves enough cash) in the PC gaming industry to ensure at least a handful of blockbuster games early on. Against that kind of competition, any new entrant is playing catch-up ball.
In fact, there's little indication of what games the Indrema system would play. The box is listed as including Quake 3 Arena / Unreal Tournament, but the Indrema site lists no other game possibilities. And since it touts a "special 'DV Linux' distribution," it's unclear which games will run out-of-box. The X-box is planned to run only games written specifically for it; avoiding that fate seems tricky, since games on every platform except those written for a particular console have a way of sneakily requiring more or different resources than you've got in the box. And if the Indrema machine should have complex enough of an interface to allow users to easily modify directories, install packages and otherwise tweak the contents of that optional hard drive, would it be able to retain the ease of use the console market thrives on?
On the other hand, perhaps packaged games aren't the point at all. Every major player in the console industry is selling their systems' networkability, whether by dialup modem or broadband. Microsoft's interest in WebTV -- and the pay-per-month online games now available -- may be a taste of where the console makers would really like their revenue to come from: a captive audience willing to pay not only for games or other applications, but for access to them. Repeat business and low margins have sold billions of hamburgers, after all. It's plausible that Indrema will offer servers featuring games exclusive to monthly subscribers, or on a per-game basis.
Indrema's nearly breathless Web site hints at a Winter 2000 release: "expected to ship in time for Christmas." That's well before the X-Box is slated to ship, according to this ActiveNetwork comparison of the Sony Playstation 2 and the X-box. I hope they're right, because it seems like a head start might be the only hope for survival against the big-name establishment.
That was most certainly not me. Spin off, coward. Spin off and die.
What exactly is "GPU TBA" 3D accelleration? Graphics Processing Unit - To Be Announced?
It sounds neat (the box, not the accellerator) -- the 4 USB ports sounds like they want to hook up the controllers that way (Gravis has a neat gamepad or three) which is a very wise move IMO. I wonder if they will support regular cable and DSL modems through the network connection as well. Does anyone have more info on "DV linux"?
Alot of people will buy this box if you can configure it to the way you want (of course you may void your warranty ). If this is to up agianst playstation, nintendo, x-box, sega and any other I forgot mention. The greatest selling point will be this your box the way you want it. You make it into anything you want without our permission The company then can sell thier knowledge of how to programm in thier enviroment To companies who want to support. Also there can also be games that are officially supported but that doean't mean that you can't put another game on there but if it is not an official game we can't help with it. There is alot of things that can be done on the marketing side of this they just need a great spin doctor
http://theotherside.com/dvd/
A Pentium is a 32 bit machine.
The Unix world is moving to 64-bits. Some vendors have moved. Some are moving there. Eventually that will filter down to PCs. In the meantime trying to port 32-bit applications to 64-bit systems is painful.
But for parallel calculations wider is better. Do you know what the 64 in Nintendo 64 stands for? Yup, the CPU is 64-bit! The Playstation 2 has a 128 bit emotion engine. Sega's Dreamcast is also at 128 bits. Nintendo is rumored to have a 256 bit CPU on their upcoming Dolphin.
Now any PC gaming fanatics know that a good video card really improves gaming. Do you know why? The reason is that the video card is a special-purpose CPU (typically 128 bits) that absolutely creams your general-purpose CPU on graphics calculations.
Therefore you have a choice. Compatible with existing 32-bit programs. Great as a dedicated gaming platform. And never the twain shall meet.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Quick, is an int a long?
What size is a pointer?
How many bytes do you need to allocate for any of the above?
On 32-bit machines an int is a long will hold a pointer, and all take 4 bytes. On 64-bit machines that doesn't work any more. If code gets it wrong, then porting becomes a nasty process. (Usual solution. Offer a slow 32-bit compatibility mode...)
As for the wider data path, it usually helps a lot for graphics. What you use the data path for is to process multiple pixels at once. Sure, you need mutually exclusive access to lots of things between processes. But the majority of the work can be done several pixels at the time. Graphics is extremely parallelizable (which is why some of the graphics benchmarks have Linux machines at the top).
But in general, you are right that 64-bits is not always better than 32. It is better if you need to deal with numbers over 2-4 GB. Which is why with larger amounts of RAM it makes sense for computers to switch. It also makes sense for parallel calculations. But for general purpose computing it can mean that programs need to toss around larger chunks of data to do the same thing, so it can be slower. (Which is why general purpose computers are only now making the switch now that available memory and file-sizes are running into problems with 32-bit machines.)
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Which is basically a stripped down 4400. Here is a link to a detailed description.
However I would hardly call this a general purpose CPU. It is a stripped down relative of SGI's 4400. If you recall SGI was known for being a graphics powerhouse, and most of the changes they made to the chip were to make it inexpensive, and even more specialized for graphics. True, they didn't put the same level of energy that went into later generations of gaming consoles. But it had a lot of design decisions that would not make sense for a general purpose CPU!
Compare that to the early Pentiums selling at around the same time-frame which were a true general purpose CPU for a home machine, and the differences leap out at you. The Nintendo 64 ran circles around several generations of home PCs in its intended use. Had it been used for running software closer to Windows 95, it would have been limping pitifully instead...
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Linux in a game console is viable if you keep the kernel and core system stuff in ROM, and mount only the DVD drive and a RAM disk for scratch stuff by default. The hard disk can be mounted when the user wants to save a file, and unmounted afterwards.
<p>
Good point. I wonder if they have the wits to realize this? Fsck can be run automatically to avoid having to bother the average console punter, but even with the legendary recoverability of extfs (and the upcoming journalled filesystems) it'd surely fsck up sooner or later even so.
<p>
Another method might be to include a mini-UPS attached to the power supply so that removal of mains power would cause the system to shut down gracefully, but this is unlikely because of the component cost.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Nobody is contending that the PC's on store shelves *right now* could compete with PS2.
The PC's of next fall are precisely what the argument is about.
Remember, the specs put out by Indrema are purposefully vague, eg. "GPU TBA". They will surely take advantage of the price/performance available at the point when they finally have to order parts to begin manufacture. That will be in the fall.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
You exaggerated first! :o)
:o)
This particular set-top is *not* specialized at all. That is its advantage. No longer do you need a four-foot high stack of single-function black boxes under the telly for your AV entertainment needs; one box will do.
MIDI might not be as popular as Super Mario, but since it comes "free" with good sound cards, with the right software it'd be a plus for anyone who likes making their own music. Widening the appeal of the thing still further.
QNX is a capable system for a narrow range of applications. Multimedia is not one of them AFAIK. You said:
"QNX can do everything that Linux can do yet fits in like 1/50th the space. Mainly because QNX is optimized to do these, and leaves out a lot of cruft Linux keeps in."
Eh? First you say that QNX has all the features of Linux, then in the same breath you state that it's a fiftieth the size because it's had most of the features taken out! Make up your bleeding mind!
AGP 8X engineering samples are already available. Past experience with earlier incarnations indicates that within 6 months products ought to be available.
Do you have any hard figures on transfer speed to go with your claims for VRAM? If it goes significantly faster then 2GB/sec I have my doubts that any other part of the system would be able to keep up with it. And VRAM is expensive; DDR-SDRAM will be priced like SDRAM is now.
I never mentioned a 2GHz CPU, by the way. The CPU isn't even that important, with hardware MPEG decoding and video acceleration.
What it all boils down to is this: the standard PC spec by next Christmas when this Idrema is due to come out will be substantially better than what we have now. I think it'll be something like this: 1GHz processor (133MHz FSB), 256MB PC266 DDR-SDRAM. UDMA66 20GB HDD, 128bit 8xAGP graphics card 64MB (or possibly 128MB). The Idrema will be lower specced in order to keep the price down. They seem to have pegged on a 600MHx processor for example, and I expect to see most components integrated on the motherboard making their cost negligible. If they can fit what they want into 64MB core memory then the most expensive part by far will be the graphics subsystem. But with even this integrated, it's quite possible the whole thing could be manufactured for under $300.
I still think you're arguing with your emotions rather than your reason. We'll see who's right by next Christmas
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Because console gamers and pc gamers are two different markets. There's some overlap, yes, but remember, the PC is a rather expensive general purpose machine, as opposed to the consoles, which are cheap specialized pieces of hardware.
There's also a huge amount of people out there that own multiple consoles but not a computer... And then the risk that if any manufacturer got too successful at selling games into the windows market, Microsoft would simply buy them out.
If this box ever reaches production you can bet the CLI will be harder to find than a legitimate Godly Armour of Whale.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Like many people have said, this looks like more of an all-in-one device than a true gaming machine. It looks to me like it wants to be a TiVo that can play Quake. What these guys will (as well as M$) will realize too late, console systems are about games. There's either really radical gameplay and fun factor or graphics that make you change your boxers. In some cases there's cult appeal, the Pokemon colour GameBoy (FF7 and 8 are the only reasons for me to have a PSX). The X-Box and i600 seems to appeal to the geeks who love their PC games rather than the 8-14 crowd that awes at Street Fighter 2 and gobbles up Mario Kart. The PSX and Dreamcast do have slightly more appeal for the 15-25 crowd that likes fighting and driving games. The PC game geeks don't mass NEARLY enough for the X-Box/i600 to compete with the DC and PSX/PS2.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
You've got a good point about games for Linux. I think that's a real weakness if they're marketing this as a game machine.
I imagined the OS would be behind the scenes. Rather than "It's Linux a computer for your living room", the marketing should be "It's a console that plays Linux games." I don't agree that no one will want Internet access. There are lots of people who don't want to learn computers just to surf and send email. There are more people using WebTV to surf than Linux.
The reason I gave that example of "The Sims" was to show how you could turn it on, insert the CD, and start playing. If it's going to succeed, it needs to "just work".
I'm not so sure it's really a new contender. It's just an extension of the Linux game platform.
Since Linux has games already, it doesn't live or die on the developer-friendliness of its manufacturer, which is different from every other console out there.
Plus, it's a lot easier to pirate computer games than console games. Could that be an attraction?
With a networked scheme, the server would do all this for you.
Do what for you, and why can't your computer do it? I understand perfictly, if the boxes are all the same, and the CD's are all the same, what's the point of having a server help to install information of the CD onto the computer?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I'd like to take this opportunity to announce the specs for my new console, with an ETA of April, 2001.
-------------------------------
Name: Extrema Bullshit
CPU0: Optimized AMD Athlon Thunderbird-700 processor (2.8GFLOPS).
CPU1: NVIDIA NV26 GPU, 600m Matrix x vector operations per second, capable of transforming and lighting 150 million triangles (100 million vertices) per second. Collision detection and vertex blending is integrated into the core at no extra cost.
SPU: Emu E12000 Environmental Extender, real-time 1536kbps DTS-ES 6.1 compression, THX Ultra Certified, 130 dB signal/noise ratio, 96 hardware accelerated 3D voices. Psychoacoustic technologies allow simulating sounds along the vertical axis.
Rasterization Processor: NVIDIA NV26R, 4.8GPixel/sec fill rate, 8 programmable hardware texel units and polygon normal interpolation, yielding 120 million 8-level multi-textured phong shaded 25-pixel polygons / sec. Supports all HDTV resolutions including 1920x1080P, all at 8-bits per channel plus an 8-bit stencil buffer and 24-bit Z Buffer. Also, supports 15 million triangles/second in distributed raytracing mode, with radiosity.
Memory:
CPU0: 64MB Wide Direct RDRAM, 6.4GB/sec
Rasterization: 32MB Texture RAM, 12MB frame buffer
embedded, 64GB/sec
SPU: 4MB compression cache and 16MB sample cache, 1064MB/sec
Storage: 8X DVD, 75GB hard drive, 8MB memory card
Media: CD-ROM, CD-DA, DVD-A, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, CD-RW, CD-R
Network: built-in selectable 10/100/1000BT ethernet, and an optional ATM switcher ($75)
OS: Solaris MultiMedia
Development: Open
Output: HDTV, SDTV, NTSC, PAL, VESA. 1x Progressive, 1xSVideo, 1xComposite, 1xVGA, 1xSCART, 1xStereo, 1xTOSLINK
Extra: Plays DVD movies, DVD Audio, VCD, CD audio, Playstation, Saturn, and DirectX games. And it can be programmed to download porn while you sleep.
Cost: $300
This does 2 trillion operations per second, so you can get double photo-realistic results.
-----------------------
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Agreed.
If they said they'd created a Linux-based "mid-weight client" that happened to play games but more importantly had fast networking, support for multiple output devices, a convenient size and low price, maybe more people would buy in.
I'd like one of these for the living room, and one in the basement (two places currently computer-free in my house) so I could tap out email, check the Web, play a game
They're playing up the wrong aspects.
Warning: IAMNAMarketingManager type.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
The list of specs on the Indrema page lists a standard video out (I think SVGA) as well as the TV outs.
...
And that makes sense, given the availability of cheap cards from ATi and others that offer the choice between S-video or standard video in addition to the reg. monitor out
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Despite what a lot of corporations want to believe, consumers just don't want an all-in-one web browser / game console / e-mail client. If people want games and Internet utilities, they can buy a PC -- or they can buy a console if they just want games.
I think you are referring to smart consumers. There are still many, many people who don't have a computer let alone want one. They turn away from having to buy a $900 machine they have not the fondest idea how to use.
People who understand computers don't want have anything to do with these all-in-one systems, but will probably end up buying one for the video game feature.
I am glad Sony has not taken the step into trying to classify their machine as a PC. They instead have made it a hacker's challenge equipping it with PCMCIA, USB and Firewire to set imaginations wild. They are calling it a gaming console - that's all they care about, the rest is up to you.
- Detritus
"I never really liked computers, but then the server went down on me"
The open source side of this is interesting, but I wouldn't expect to leverage much success from the Linux coding community, because:
1. The number of coders who have demonstrated any usability sense at all are very rare; rare enough that they should be snapped up by wise companies.
2. The Linux game coding community is *horrible*. Yes, I mean that. This is 2000; we have amazing multi-hundred-megahertz machines. We have graphics cards that speed things up even more. And what are we seeing: clones of Asteroids and Tetris and Tron light-cycle games. Ugh. Yeah, we get some ports and some people try to conjure up some inkling of creativity, but it just doesn't look good.
I loved that thing! It was a computer/word processor system that came with a daisy wheel printer, tape drive (no floppy) and a keyboard. You could plug it right into your tv so a monitor wasn't necessary. That helped to bring the costs down. It also came with a space game and an Apple-like BASIC programming language. It also came with a cartridge slot that played colecovision games !
I would spend days copying game listings from magazines only to find that they didn't work because they were designed to run on true Apple systems.
The ADAM was out around the time Draqon's Lair was the top arcade video game. Coleco kept promising to release a laser-disk and a Dragon's Lair game. I think that was my first experience with vaporware.
The printer would print about 1 page per minute. The only problem was there were glitches in the printer system that would cause the printer to spew out garbage intermittently. I remember my cousing coming over one night to type up a paper that was due the next morning. It took us 8 hours to get a 10 page paper done. He left my house at 5am.
Ah, the memories.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Whoa boy, outdid me in the comment length department. You're wrong on most counts however.
1) Being a set top is a specialized job. Nothing in a GPOS makes it any easier than a specialized set-top OS.
2) I know UNIX guys want to stuff in every feature under the SUN, but face it. 99% of the consumer base has no clue what MIDI is!
3) Don't get too cocky with the GPOS thing. QNX can do everything that Linux can do yet fits in like 1/50th the space. Mainly because QNX is optimized to do these, and leaves out a lot of cruft Linux keeps in.
4) Where do you get all these technological marvels? AGP 8X will not be out anywhere near Q3. More like Q3 2001. (AGP 4X is barely out NOW.) DDR SDRAM is still nowhere near as fast as embedded VRAM. Latency is lower. It has special grpahics functions, and the bus width is about 8 times wider. Even if the DDR-SDRAM runs at twice the clock, the Embedded VRAM is 4 X as fast. Take a look at what you're saying. A 2GHz PIII with a GPU capable of beating the PS2 is nowhere near Q3 this year. Even if chip power continues at its present astronomical rate, a chip cheap enough to put into a console at 2GHz is a year away. Computers evolve quick, but not THAT quick.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
All the manufactors that are pushing Web TV consoles/devices seem to keep forgetting the resolution of TV. Since TV gives you free temporal anti-aliasing (along with spatial anti-aliasing) which is GREAT for graphics, it however makes READING TEXT very tiring on the eyes compared to a "real" monitor.
:)
People use monitors for a reason: Namely a clear rock steady image. Personally I find anything less then 100 Hz to be an eye strain, but what do I know, I'm just a graphics programmer
Cheers
This product isn't a good idea. If it wasn't running Linux, I don't think that anybody would even notice it. Here is why:
1. They say that it has a 600 Mhz processor, but don't mention what kind it is. Any Slashdot read worth their salt should know that listing the clock speed of a processor and nothing else is like listing a motor's RPMs and nothing else; It doesn't mean anything useful. The only reason that they say this is because the X-Box has a processor running at the same speed.
2. It has a hard drive. I know that the X-box also has one, but I don't like that either. I own a computer. In fact, I own 6. If I want to have to manage hard drive space and fsck's, then I'll use a computer. If I want to play q3a, then I'll use a computer. If I want to play Mario, then I'll use my Nintendo, and I won't worry about having an optional hard drive upgrade. I guess what I'm saying is:
3. If I want to play computer games, I'll play them on a computer. Why would I buy a separate machine to play games on? OK, I did, but it is just another computer, which I also use for development and such. If I want to play console games, I'll play them on a console. The web site offers nothing to make me believe that this isn't a computer with a different case and TV out.
4. The graphics chip isn't announced. If you play games, you know that this makes the entire announcement virtually meaningless. The most important factor in a game machine's ability is the graphics card. A PII-233 with a GeForce DDR would smoke a PIII-1000 with an S3 virge in just about any game. The (already mentioned) fact that they didn't even mention the type of processor makes this announcement totally meaningless.
5. It has an OS, and it is Linux. I love Linux. I want more games for Linux. However, having an OS isn't really that good for a console, IMHO. The Dreamcast has a port of WinCE, and nobody uses it. This is because it really isn't useful. A full blow OS, like Win2K (X-box) or Linux (this thing) is very bad in the context of console games. A protected memory, paged memory, multi-tasking, mult-threaded, multi-user, OS is very slow. It cuts the performance of a machine at least in half. The Dreamcast has a 200 MHz processor, which is probably on par with a PII 400 (if I remember correctly) in terms of FPU horsepower, and a graphics chip which is a bit more powerful than a voodoo 2. In spite of this, games like Soul Calibur look much better than anything available on a PC with a PIII 600 and a TNT2 ultra. It doesn't waste CPU time on context switches, memory security and other things that are critical on a multi-user, multi-processing system.
Personally, I'm waiting on a "Next-Next Generation" console until the PS2 comes out, and maybe even until it has some games. I could be wrong, but I don't think this thing will even tempt me as much as the X-box.
or rather, the developers of those games! playstation, nintendo, sony, as well as microsoft, all have a slew of developers enlisted to "make the games." Microsoft in particular is able to wrangle in developers with API's that work on it's X-Box as well as desktop PC's. Developers like this, since they can easily port/cross-develop their games to 2 platforms. As much as Microsoft API's suck, are poorly designed, etc, they are being used, and used widely in PC game development.
Now consider Linux. Now think about games for Linux. Until now, the only commercially sucessful venue for games on Linux has been Loki. And all they do is ports (and according to the recent interview with the head of Loki, thats all they're interested in doing for at least the near future). My point is that for this machine to be a successful game platform, they'll have to convince developers that game development is rewarding, easy, powerful, etc. For this to happen, there needs to be proven, standard API's that are of commercial quality (open-source, or not), with support, usage statistics, examples, demos, everything! (Some tools/environments come to mind, such as OpenGL/AL; just gotta convince the developers.)
In terms of the non-game aspects of this machine, everything seems fine to me. Linux has already proven itself capable of internet-oriented tasks, and would, in my opinion, make a fine WebTV style device. However, to simply tack on "and it'll play your favorite games!" without thinking it through is not prudent, and I doubt it would sell, to either developers, or consumers.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Ahhh....But did you catch the lines about the 100Mbit ethernet port and the choice of HD's?
I would by this thing if it was reasonbly priced for the MP3 possiblities alone. I want a box that is ethernet ready and dedicated to storing my music collection. If I could use it to surf too, then that's a bonus.
I think the price is going to be an issue.
Yeah, Yeah, I could build one myself, but who has time. I dig the look of the thing and the compact size.
Jason
http://packetnexus.com
When I was reading through this, I was very impressed by the Timothy's response to the article, but I wanted to note a few things that may be important.
I've seen others mention the importance of this box in the grander scheme of things, both pushing against M$ and the existing game console companies (Sony, etc.) and I think that these are all valid points, but...
Who is going to 'root' this system? Are there going to be instant upgrades available like the Flash upgradable I-Opener Internet Appliance? Since the system is run on software on top of the hardware and not from eeprom and chip saved commands like the game consoles, but with a REAL OS ... When does it get upgraded? Who does the upgrading? Who gets access to root?
Another problem, then, is also security. We have a REAL OS here, connecting to the Internet. How long before these boxes start getting hacked? What do consumers do then? Buy an upgrade? Buy a patch?
Where then, does the line get drawn between this box taunting the world with Linux and the ever?-powerful M$ get drawn?
"The most terrifying thing is to accept oneself completely." -- Carl Jung, Psychologist
See the following detailed article from xboxpc.com based on an interview from Kevin Bachus, one of the originators of the X-Box on why the X-Box isn't anything but a game machine. It won't even have a web browser.
Microsoft Says by Any Other Name, Still Not a PC
Won't work. The Win2000 OS of the X-Box is on a ROM. Read the article here. It even says "Sorry, no luck for Linux Hackers."
X-Box Info from xboxpc.com
X-Box does support HDTV. See the specs: X-Box Specs
I'll use Linux as my only OS when /. looks as good in Linux using Netscape as it does in Windows using IE. Until then, long live dual booting!
In 3010, the potatoes triumphed
Can I start playing games as soon as I hit the "on" button? (10 seconds is too long for a quick game before you go out).
What about price? Isn't it better to buy the features separately; that way someone can watch a DVD, while someone else is playing a game.
Crusoe is intended for mobile applications. Like cell-phones, PDAs, and the like. But if you expect to plug it into the wall, then the Crusoe's power savings are unlikely to be a huge win.
In their market Transmeta is actually doing quite well. And long term Transmeta probably hopes to move into the mainstream market as well. After all one of the basic problems that chips face for getting faster is keeping from melting down. Low power implies low heat which implies a design that can scale.
Another win for Transmeta's design is that they can take advantage of future architectures much more easily than can a traditional chip design. The value of this freedom is immense, but again only in the long haul does it really pay back.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
people can just buy the PS2 to get set-top capabilities PLUS awesome gaming.
A general purpose machine running a general purpose OS (even if tweaked for multimedia performance) will always be capable of more things than a hardwired console which doesn't have the capacity for a fully fledged OS.
1) Power, power power. The proc in this machine sounds something like an Athlon or PIII 600. That is ridiculously low powered compared to the 300 MHz emotion engine. You hear all those mac heads preaching MHz!=power. Well this is a case in point. The fp power of the Emotion Engine (herefoth refered to as the EE in amiga tradition) is much higher than a PIII. It is designed to do one thing well, 3D graphics calculations.
Exactly. In other words, you are comparing apples with oranges. You went on to say that Indrema would need a 1.5GHz PIII. But The Emotion engine cannot be compared with a CPU, it's only a graphics processor. To see how the Indrema box compared to a PS2 you'll have to wait to see what kind of graphics card it ships with. And by Q3, allowing plenty of time for a last-minute redesign and tooling up for manufacture before Christmas, the AGP graphics cards out there will be two generations on from where we are now. Nvidia have themselves already said that the X-box GPU will be several times more powerful than the PS2. So while the PS2 is doomed always to run the Emotion Engine, by the time the L600 appears it will have a GPU between four to ten times as powerful as the PS2's in terms of sheer triangle output and fill rate, and with a few new tricks as well. At HDTV resolutions and frame rates, this will mean 3D game animations that look even more like live video than the PS2's.
This being so, the PS2 in its current form can't possibly compete. Even if Sony introduces an uprated GPU, the only way they'd be able to overtake the L600 in graphics quality terms would be to put in more hardwired features rather than just upping the clock rate. Then it's a PS3, effectively, and software compatibility issues come into play.
Then there is the 4 meg of EMBEDDED VRAM with a 150MHz bus and a ridiculous bus width (DDR eat your heart out.) I don't think I have to elaborate.
But by Q3 this year, a standard PC motherboard will probably be running PC266 DDR-SDRAM with a memory bandwidth on the main system bus of 2.128GB/sec. Support for 8xAGP may well be widespread on motherboards and high-end 3D graphics cards by then too, giving us 2GB/sec to the graphics card as well. Thus, any high-end PC by this fall might be able to give the PS2 a run for its money. And all without even having to resort to some ugly proprietary local video bus scheme...
2) Selvteness. When will people learn that using the right tool for the right job is best. Why the hell did they decide to use Linux? Sure it is a great server or workstation OS, but is seriously too big for a gamestation.
But this is not just a "gamestation". It will play MP3's and CD's, and DVD's like Playstation II. It will also surf the web and handle email. Unlike the Playstation though, it will also probably be able to record broadcast video (and perhaps delay broadcasts like Tivo and Replay). Since it'll be running a general purpose OS which just happens to have a huge available application code base, and since it'll be festooned with USB ports, I guarantee that nobody can foresee right now what else people will be doing with it.
It's all down to what software gets written for it I suppose. I can easily imagine that we'll be doing Karaoke on it, hooking up MIDI keyboards to it, ordering the shopping from the local supermarket, checking the bank balance and so on. All the things you could do from your sofa with a TV if that TV also happened to be a powerful internet-connected computer.
You can cut it down, but it even then it is still too big, and by the looks of the spec sheet, they seem to be using full blown Linux/X. This poses many problems.
A) Linux is too fat for a console. A console has no need of many things that are in the kernel that can't be taken out. There is no need for all the security and multi-userness inherent in UNIX, no need for console support, no need for any process management (or memory protection for that matter) no need for a VM, no need swap management, etc.
Really? Remember this is not just a games console. All that multitasking power could be put to good use I dare say. Like recording a movie off the TV while you're playing Quake. Can a Playstation 2 do that? Perhaps the L600 can't either, but you can bet that the next version will be able to.
Again, these could probably be coded out, but that would be an assload of work, and most Linux progs wouldn't work afterwords. The PS/2 OS will be simple. Some libraries for setting of graphics, OpenGL, etc, talking to the hardware, taking to devices, and a TCP/IP stack. Most of all, it gets our of your way real fast.
So can Linux if you don't have a whole bunch of demons running and you've compiled out all the unnecessary device and networking support.
Don't be surprised if many game developers forgo OpenGL or whatever and access hardware directly.
I doubt it. The OpenGL API means that PC games houses, who've been using OpenGL for years, can feasibly port their games to this platform and Linux in general, in short order. It's already happening.
They've been doing it for years and on a platform that stays as constant as a console, they can tweek to give a massive speed boost. The best example is this. One the same hardware, current N64 games whoop what was available at its introduction. What PCs can do that?
The PC's of next fall.
B) They're using X. (They say they use Mesa and DRI.) What kind of ridiculous interface is that? Am I to assume they'll write their own WM. Then who will re-write the apps to take advantage of it? Shoehorning a big UI into the wrong place has been seen before. Its called WindowsCE. And why the hell use DRI? What else is using the graphics hardware?
I'd expect them to use a lightweight X-based WM for applications, something like ICE or Blackbox. But the games will bypass that mostly, so no overhead there. The X code will be completely swapped out while the game is running.
C) Wheres the RAM? Sure it has 64 meg, but after Linux/X plus the WM, only like 16 or less will be left. You're telling me the console is going to hit the SWAP?
This is typical console-player arrogance. It may surprise you to know that there are many people who play 3D video games on operating systems much worse than Linux. Swapfiles are used appropriately. If the game is written to run within available physical memory, swapping will only take place at startup and between scenes. It doesn't impinge on game play. It's simply irrelevant.
3) They're way out of their league in terms of customer slickness. First, Linux isn't that slick to begin with. I'll give them the benifit of the doubt and assume they can make Linux/X as easy to use as the playstation.
Yes, it'll have to look a lot more "appliance-like". But that can be done.
(No boot sequence, no logging in, no actually even starting the app.
Oh, come ON! Even console users have to switch on, plug in, and navigate past the opening screens!
Want to play a CD? Stick it in the drive and re-boot. The CD player app comes up.)
Do PS2 users have to reboot to play a CD? Linux users and Windows users don't.
Are people actually going to SHUTDOWN their console? Linux is way too unstable and buggy for consoles. Sure 100 days without a crash may seem stable to PC users, but console users would be up in arms if their console crashed three times a year! More like once every three years is about right. (My N64 has crashed once in 5 years, and my PC hasn't crashed in the 3 years I've owned it.)
This *might* be a danger (though not so much as with the MS X-box). It depends how much stuff is running, and whether there are any memory leaks in the window manager or the browser etc. If the "off" button does a soft shutdown (something like a properly working ACPI suspend-to-disk), then the slate is regularly wiped clean and this risk will be minimal.
Second, I can't see people accepting the fact that their kernel needs to be updated. No, sorry, no dice.
I don't see why the kernel should ever need updating if people don't want to (or if the manufacturers don't want them to). There are Linux-based web servers out there still running kernel 1.0.9, you know.
And the hardrive. The guy who decided to put in a harddrive ought to be shot.
I am rather glad of the hard disk actually. Especially since it means video recording capability, on-system storage of MP3's etc.
I say this because console software is released as good as it will ever get. It has to be, it can never be patched. People aren't going to accept, "please wait... Downloading latest patches for Mario 64."
Why not? Fully automatic software updates sounds like quite a neat feature. Not having to put up with permanent bugs like console software has sounds like a good idea. Of course, if such a feature is implemented it will be optional and upgrade downloads won't happen without the user's consent.
These people need to get a clue.
Personally I think the clue they already have is better than yours...
This is a machine that everyone from age 6 to age 60 will be using. It can't be difficult, it can't be unstable (reletivly), it can't take energy to maintain. It has to be transparent to use, and be easy to use as your toaster. Literraly.
That's the only thing you've said that I can actually agree with. The basic functions *must* be easy to learn. I hope it's better than my Thomson VCR, which was designed by a complete idiot.
Its nice to get Linux on yet another devices, but ask yourself people, how stupid of an idea is it?
I rather think that this device isn't about getting Linux out there, it's about delivering a flexible, fast and reliable set-top computer and entertainment device. That requires a general purpose OS. Of such operating systems, many people believe Linux to be the best choice for this kind of embedded work - for a whole raft of reasons. But this post is quite long enough already.
I just want to add in closing that I believe this machine is the right thing for the simple reason that I've been waiting for three years for one to appear. For all that time I've wanted a single box to go under my TV which would do off-air video recording, 3D games, music, web surfing and general LAN access. Up to now, the hardware hasn't been up to it; all the graphics cards I've seen so far have really crap TV-out displays. But this one is supposed to support HDTV so I'm hopeful of home cinema quality output at last. And it'll surely cost me far less to buy it from them than it'd cost me to design and build it myself from scratch.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
I don't think that the line "yes, it will play any game available for Linux" is a good selling point, at this point in time.
And forget about piling on more and more "features". It doesn't need to to anything but play games! Notice how well the WebTV is selling? Didn't think so. People need to realize that the set-top box market and the PC markets are completely different. If someone wanted to have a PC, they'ed have bought one.
Some features are very well suited for inclusion with a set top box... DVD player is a no brainer, as is a CD player, but only because the DVD player will play CD's. Web browsing software? No. Email clients? No. KDE? No. Those are all functions that really don't serve the set top market very well.
Even a "visible" OS is kind of against what a gaming console stands for. Who cares if the underlying OS is Windows, Linux, or any other operating system. You should turn the machine on, insert CD, pick up controller, and press start. The OS should only be there so that developers have a common API to code for in order to use things like the sound chips, graphics chips, and read from the CD.
One way to avoid the classic console/pc problems is to take advantage of the flexibility of the PC. to add value. Picture this:
Customer: Does it play games?
Vendor: Yes. Any game for Linux will work on it.
Customer: Does it play CDs?
Vendor: Yes.
Customer: What about MP3s?
Vendor: Them too.
Customer: DVD?
Vendor: Yeah. They have a license from the DVD Forum. Faster/easier DVD playback than any other linux system.
Customer: What ReplayTV and Tivo?
Vendor: It does that, too.
Customer: What about the Internet?
Vendor: You bet. Have a look at Mozilla. . .
That's a lot of features.
The way I see it, a high-speed internet connection and a unified platform are a potent combination. Say Loki ports The Sims to Linux. Your box doesn't know how to install it. So when you insert the CD, it reaches out and asks a central server. The central server's directions will be correct, because all these boxes are the same.
Dunno if it will succeed, but these ARE the days of the sub-$500 PC.
I mean, I'll never get this. Money should, in theory, make almost anything respectable (ok, porn is the obvious exception). Games and game machines are a big, huge money industry. I mean people talk about the Internet revolution in the news all the time, but it seems that the video/computer gaming revolution has always been a stealth revolution.
Now, don't get me wrong, it always sickens me the way these days everyone (in the mainstream media) seems to think money is the only important thing about the information age. But you'd think something that has made fortunes for people at Sony, Sega and Nintendo wouldn't be able to get its jokes from Rodney Dangerfield. Now... I don't want people to think there are no innovative minds in American gaming hardware. For example, I'm fairly impressed by the way that Alienware markets gaming optimized computers. They don't try to pretend they've got "socially redeeming value" they just give their boxen cool names like Hivemind and put decent hardware inside of them.
When 3DO was first announced this was an actual advertising slogan:
Years ago, I read a science fiction story about a computer that could predict the future. This computer predicted the birth of a man who had a wrongly formulated scientific theory, but he was absolutely convinced it was correct and charismatic enough to convince other people that it was true. No matter how many disasters were caused by putting the theory into practice he wouldn't give up on it, and eventually a flawed machine based on his theory destroyed the entire universe.The quasi-educational set-top box is like this for the American gaming industry. Somehow, business people who back these things need to be convinced that the quasi-educational boxes are uncool and unsexy and it is the game machines that are cool. After all, there is no reason why a Linux based set-top box couldn't be used to create decent games (I mean besides Nethack... though that would be pretty cool on a big screen TV ;) especially considering Gameboy is still selling very well. It's just a philosophical problem... chain the investment bankers up and have them repeat the mantra "games are cool, games make money" until they understand it.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Actually, most of the ignorant masses will probably just stick with their plain old computer rather than go out and buy any one of these consoles.
Since they're being pushed as gaming machines, this pretty much divides the users into two groups: gamers and kids.
Kids will most likely want the Dolphin because it'll have the Pokemon games -- they won't care what the console can do as long as it has Pokemon. (Or whatever big fad Nintendo acquires next...)
The gamers will actually look at the games, and (from what I've seen outta the gaming community) the PSX2 looks like the biggest contender.
Still, we'll have to see what's actually going on when everything comes out, but I don't see that much of a future for the X-Box.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
This sounds a lot like Vaporware - The components are almost exactly the same as the X-box, with a few added 'upgrade' options.
They also say "NV25 Hardware Acceleration or better."
Or better? They don't know yet? And remember, Nvidia said the NV25 was X-Box ONLY.
Sounds as if this is timed to draw some hype on the coattails of the X-box.
signature smigmature
- James
Its a sad but true fact that this set top will get nowhere. They don't seem to comprehend quite a few things, all of which will lead this to be unusable (compared to the PS2) as a game console. That fact will also hurt its sales as a set-top, because people can just buy the PS2 to get set-top capabilities PLUS awesome gaming.
1) Power, power power. The proc in this machine sounds something like an Athlon or PIII 600. That is ridiculously low powered compared to the 300 MHz emotion engine. You hear all those mac heads preaching MHz!=power. Well this is a case in point. The fp power of the Emotion Engine (herefoth refered to as the EE in amiga tradition) is much higher than a PIII. It is designed to do one thing well, 3D graphics calculations. It can be very parallel, and have a ton of hardware dedicated to just that task. There is no way anything below a 1.5 - 2GHz PIII will outperform it. Take a look at the special SH3 powering the Dreamcast. Remember the Top500 super computer list? Number 2 and 3 were measly 64 way SH based chips. Sure they might not be as hot as a 256 chip origin for general computing, but for their very specific task, they whoop. Thats they same family of chip thats in the dreamcast, and EE promises to be even better. Then take the GPU. Looks to be something like a GeForce. Might be nice, but remember, even in terms of clock speed the PS2 GPU outperforms it. (120MHz vs. 150 MHz) There are also a lot of optimizations in the architecture that the PS2 can make that the more general purpose PC arch can't. Then there is the 4 meg of EMBEDDED VRAM with a 150MHz bus and a ridiculous bus width (DDR eat your heart out.) I don't think I have to elaborate.
2) Selvteness. When will people learn that using the right tool for the right job is best. Why the hell did they decide to use Linux? Sure it is a great server or workstation OS, but is seriously too big for a gamestation. You can cut it down, but it even then it is still too big, and by the looks of the spec sheet, they seem to be using full blown Linux/X. This poses many problems.
A) Linux is too fat for a console. A console has no need of many things that are in the kernel that can't be taken out. There is no need for all the security and multi-userness inherent in UNIX, no need for console support, no need for any process management (or memory protection for that matter) no need for a VM, no need swap management, etc. Again, these could probably be coded out, but that would be an assload of work, and most Linux progs wouldn't work afterwords. The PS/2 OS will be simple. Some libraries for setting of graphics, OpenGL, etc, talking to the hardware, taking to devices, and a TCP/IP stack. Most of all, it gets our of your way real fast. Don't be surprised if many game developers forgo OpenGL or whatever and access hardware directly. They've been doing it for years and on a platform that stays as constant as a console, they can tweek to give a massive speed boost. The best example is this. One the same hardware, current N64 games whoop what was available at its introduction. What PCs can do that?
B) They're using X. (They say they use Mesa and DRI.) What kind of ridiculous interface is that? Am I to assume they'll write their own WM. Then who will re-write the apps to take advantage of it? Shoehorning a big UI into the wrong place has been seen before. Its called WindowsCE. And why the hell use DRI? What else is using the graphics hardware?
C) Wheres the RAM? Sure it has 64 meg, but after Linux/X plus the WM, only like 16 or less will be left. You're telling me the console is going to hit the SWAP?
3) They're way out of their league in terms of customer slickness. First, Linux isn't that slick to begin with. I'll give them the benifit of the doubt and assume they can make Linux/X as easy to use as the playstation. (No boot sequence, no logging in, no actually even starting the app. Want to play a CD? Stick it in the drive and re-boot. The CD player app comes up.) Are people actually going to SHUTDOWN their console? Linux is way too unstable and buggy for consoles. Sure 100 days without a crash may seem stable to PC users, but console users would be up in arms if their console crashed three times a year! More like once every three years is about right. (My N64 has crashed once in 5 years, and my PC hasn't crashed in the 3 years I've owned it.) Second, I can't see people accepting the fact that their kernel needs to be updated. No, sorry, no dice. And the hardrive. The guy who decided to put in a harddrive ought to be shot. I say this because console software is released as good as it will ever get. It has to be, it can never be patched. People aren't going to accept, "please wait... Downloading latest patches for Mario 64."
These people need to get a clue. This is a machine that everyone from age 6 to age 60 will be using. It can't be difficult, it can't be unstable (reletivly), it can't take energy to maintain. It has to be transparent to use, and be easy to use as your toaster. Literraly. Its nice to get Linux on yet another devices, but ask yourself people, how stupid of an idea is it?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I disagree - I was a console gamer before I became an Apple evangelist...before I fell in love with Linux (BeOS is next), and I can guarantee that the console gaming market is as fanatical about their different brands of consoles (for example the Nintento64) as most ./ers are about Linux. I don't think they are as visible about it because most of them don't run PCs and so are not connected to the net.
Most consolers are not going to go for this "all in one system with web access on tv". They're only really interested in games. This is what drives most consolers.
And contrary to what most people think, I think there is a general distrust of anything M$ in the console gamer eye as well as the semi-computer-literate public eye as well. Most people who have used M$ products know why they are notorious for problems...no-one is going to go out and buy a microsoft console box when there is something so much better and more established from Sega, Nintendo, or Sony. Nintendo users in particular are notorious for being fanatical about their systems.
Think about how prejudiced you are against M$ - then apply that to the console market. Most Nintendo users hate Sega and Sony just as much as we hate M$.....M$ releasing a box is not going to make any difference.
Digital Philosopher. Looking for work.
Nowhere does Indrema even refer to its machine as a games console; gaming is just one of many jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none "features". It's mentioned that it can play Quake and Unreal Tournament, but so can a PC. Neither of those games are exclusive, either, and exclusive games are what really determines a console's success (why would I want to buy Indrema Quake when I just play it on my Linux box?). Given that it's not even being pushed as a game console, the chances of this console getting support from any important third-party console developer (Konami, Capcom, Square, etc.) is just about nil.
Sorry to rain on the parade, but this isn't a game console, let alone a commercially viable one. An actual Linux-based console would be very interesting to see, but we're going to have to wait a while longer before it actually appears.
Green Monkey