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Apple Announces Darwin 1.0

Quite a number of folks have written in with announcement from Apple saying that Darwin 1.0 is released. It's got the BSD core that's been discussed before, along with Mach 3.0 - and here's to hoping that Apple will open up all OSX, at least in some fashion or another.

10 of 257 comments (clear)

  1. Darwin released by VAXGeek · · Score: 4

    OFFICIAL UEO DOCUMENT FOLLOWS

    As the captain of SeaQuest, DSV, I'd just like to express my sadness at the release of Darwin. As you know, Darwin was getting a little old, and I was tired of him and Lucas always screwing up our plans. So, last Thursday, the senior officers and I finally reached the decision to release Darwin.

    Capt. Bridger
    Seaquest, DSV

    END OFFICIAL UEO DOCUMENT
    ------------
    a funny comment: 1 karma
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  2. The best shave I've ever had.. by Rombuu · · Score: 4

    It's got the BSD core that's been discussed before, along with Mach 3.0

    Thanks to Mach 3.0's inovative microkerel design, I've gotten the closest shave ever!

    --

    DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
  3. "Yeah, right" is _right_ by Christopher+B.+Brown · · Score: 5
    If Apple were truly committed to "Open Source," then the recent runaround that GnuStep people have been getting would not be happening.

    On the one hand, it's fair enough that Apple graphics (perhaps nee NeXT) are Apple's, but there are rumblings that Apple wants to get "medieval" over this. There has been a "reaction of silence," as well as more vigorous reactions.

    The distressing part, described in this article, is that it appears that access to the OPENSTEP API may not be as open as everyone would wish to believe. To wit,

    This document sets forth the OpenStep application programming interface (API). You may down-load one copy of this specification as long as it is for purposes of study only. We look forward to licensing third parties to create original implementations of this API. No such license is granted or implied by the publication of this specification. If you would like information on obtaining such a license, please contact NeXT at OpenStep@NeXT.COM.

    Of course, the most distressing part is this message purported to have come from Steve Jobs, where the salient bit reads: From: Steve Jobs Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:19 AM To: Lucas C. Wagner Subject: GNUstep Lucas, As you may know, Apple owns the Cocoa and OpenStep APIs, and will not feel great about others using its intellectual property without premission. Best, Steve

    Open is as open does. If Apple winds up suing anyone over GNUstep, I'd say that tells you how committed they really are to "open source."

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
  4. Apple open everything? Yeah, right. by Otter · · Score: 5

    ..and here's to hoping that Apple will open up all OSX.

    I was listening to Eric Raymond at the Geek Pride thing last weekend. On one hand, I was impressed with how he's obviously given his pitch to skeptical audiences and how that made him sound much more convincing than the the preaching to the choir that one normally hears here. On the other hand, I couldn't help thinking, "OK, we've heard the theoretical arguments now. And what has it done for anybody in reality?"

    If I were at Apple, I'd be waiting for somebody - anybody - to demonstrate that free development can really be more profitable than proprietary work. (Note that a stock valuation greater than the worth of Belgium isn't profit. Note also that I'm talking about open sourcing a product for which the company makes the primary investment, not taking existing GPL software, packaging it and maybe paying somebody to improve it.) Until I saw that, why on earth would I risk Apple's current profitability to be the first to test out ESR's theories?

  5. do we really deserve the GUI? by mstone · · Score: 5
    every time Apple does something that involves open source, someone always says, "now if they'll just open the GUI." to be honest, i'm not sure we deserve that.

    now, that's a high-octane statement, so please give me a chance to put it in context before hauling out the flamethrowers..

    according to the documents ESR has written, which are arguably the core of the Open Source manifesto, developers have a responsibility to the project from which the code comes. the coin of the Open Source realm is respect for the primary developers, and participation in the project for which the code was originally written.

    now, i've never seen anyone say, "if Apple opened their GUI, i'd work to improve the Mac OS." it's always, "if Apple opened their GUI, we could port the good parts to Linux." that's not participation, and it's not respect. it's pillage.

    that being the case, i'd suggest everyone take another look at _The Magic Cauldron_, section 6, where ESR discusses reasons to keep source closed:

    "The real question is whether your gain from spreading the development load exceeds your loss due to increased competition from the free rider."

    in the case of Apple opening the source to its GUI (and all its other crown jewels), i submit that the Linux community shows significantly more interest in causing Apple increased losses through competition than it does in helping spread the development load on Apple's own projects. until that changes, it seems to me that Apple's most rational choice is to keep the source for those projects closed.

    if we want that code opened, we have to do more than sit around saying how deserving we are. we have to convince Apple that the community will give enough back to compensate for the inevitable jerks whose only response will be "thanks.. sucker! hey everybody, look what i've got!"

    Apple took a lot of heat when they first opened Darwin because people (no less than PMS) considered it "a cynical attempt to leverage the community for free labor." i think there's a risk that people who want Apple to open the GUI and Quartz (and the Sorensen codec, for those of you who want a Linux QT player) may be doing the same thing in reverse. they're shouting 'Open Source' to cynically leverage free work out of private companies, with no intent to repay the original developers, even according to the standards of the Open Source community itself. they want easier competition, not a chance to participate.

    i don't think the idea of Open Source can legitimately be used to force someone into a disadvantageous position. if we're not willing to put up a critical mass of developers who'll work to Apple's benefit, i don't think our own standards give us the right to demand more than we're getting.

    1. Re:do we really deserve the GUI? by mstone · · Score: 5
      > Meaning you've never heard anyone on a Linux board like Slashdot
      > say that.

      you're quite right, my remarks were focused on the Linux/Slashdot crowd.

      of course, that simply begs the question as far as Open Source in general is concerned.. Open is Open, come one, come all.

      there are plenty of people out there (some of whom can be found here on /.) whose attitude towards an Apple that completely opened its source would be something like "strip off the flesh, shit on the bones, and laugh at the way it all steams."

      the nature of the Open Source movement allows those people catch some reflected glory from the really good ('egoless' -- _The Cathedral and the Bazaar_) developers, and lets the good developers get tarred with the brush the bad ones have made so foul.. sucks to be a good guy, i guess.

      given the open hostility to Apple (or any commercial software company that doesn't make Quake), and the fact that the Linux community can't even be bothered to acknowledge the source of most of its bundled software [1], the probable loss to free riders is high enough that i'm not sure any reasonable amount of real assistance from the good developers would offset the probable damage from short-sighted, self-serving idiots.

      ([1] - the true measure of the GPL's success is embodied in the fact that several dozen megs of GNU code are collectively presented to the public as 'Linux'.. anyone care to bet what would be printed on the CDs if Stallman could threaten to rescind those rights somehow?)

      that's one of the biggest problems the Open Source community has to address if it wants to make serious inroads with business. our ethic is based on granting responsible people as much freedom to work as possible, but fails to address the problem of dealing with people who aren't quite so virtuous. there's supposed to be a consensus of disapproval for those who behave badly, but that's really controlled by the whim of the masses.. and if we change the masses, we change the whim.

      Apple's venture into Open Source poses a serious challenge to the community in general: what do we do when a plurality of the free riders think pillaging someone else's work is acceptable? how does the part of the community that thinks working is a Good Thing offset the shouting of the masses who just want more bread and bigger circuses?

      personally, i favor an application of ESR's dictum "show me the code." i don't care what license you use, or how popular the product itself happens to be, if you want to criticize someone else's Open Source effort, you have to tell the world how much work you've contributed to the Bazzar yourself.

      RMS has the right to criticize the APSL.. he's paid for it by releasing a huge amount of code under the GPL, and by taking the kicks in the teeth that went with it. i haven't.. i've put maybe 5KLOC of perl code into the general memepool so far, and that's nothing compared to Darwin. i doubt most of the people calling for Apple to hand over its GUI (and griping about the APSL) have even matched my pittance, under any license at all.

      therefore, i reserve the right to ignore them completely. if they don't like that, they're welcome to show me some code.

    2. Re:do we really deserve the GUI? by IntlHarvester · · Score: 5

      One thing I realize about Slashdot is that it functions as sort of a base outlet for the flamier passions of the moment. The Opinion Makers (whether that be Bruce Perens or just some well spoken slashdotter) make the long-winded official proclamations On How The Community Should React To This, and then those views are repeated endlessly by various karma monkeys and flamebots until the end of time.

      One thing I wish would happened during these Darwin/APSL discussions is that some members of the Mac/Next developer community would step up to the plate and articulate why these events are a good thing for the Mac/Next developer community. It's happened, but it usually gets buried by 300 Linux Advocate condemnations and of course the assorted "One Button Mouse", "Drag Floppy to Trash?", and "I'm still pissed about the Mac IIvx" posts. Even this page seems to have a large number of people that don't even know what Darwin is, much less why they should care.

      Anyway, you are right -- Big Corporation Releases Open Source Unix should be applauded by a group of people that are nominally Open Source fans and Unix fans. However, the ideology ends up being a wash, and the true colors come out where everyone is defending their specific interest (whether that be Linux, or the GPL, or that they don't like Apple).

      But, do you what? Screw 'em. If Darwin is a worthwhile project, people will pick up the ball and run with it. These people are probably going to have to come from the Mac/Next side of the fence - I don't see much interest here. When it gets a X server, and KDE, 282 CD rippers compile, and a real 'distribution', people will start to take notice. If it stays up and puts in respectable benchmark numbers, people will really start to take notice. Remember that Linux has got where it is because of the pragmatists who have implemented it for real work, not the ideology involved in opinion shaping.
      --

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
  6. But wait, there's more... by imac.usr · · Score: 5
    In this press release, Apple says they're going to partner with another company to create what sounds like an intelligent agent to assist with customer support. Hmmm. I wonder if I can ask it how to set up DevFS under Darwin....

    Seriously, though, the next few months will be very hard on a lot of Mac system admins, I suspect. Most of the ones I've had to deal with are people who got roped into doing it part time (since most places only have a few Macs, and even places that have a lot -- like certain government institutions -- still get by with one or two dedicated Mac techs, if that many). They know enough to install system software, but next to nothing about tuning a system, or knowing what needs updating and what should be left alone (or thrown away), and why having multiple copies of Acrobat Reader is not a good thing, especially when they're different versions.

    People like myself, who saw the writing on the wall years ago, and who already had some Unix experience, will (hopefully) be in high demand as the complexity of the Mac OS goes up with OS X's release. But I fear many companies will balk at the thought of having to suddenly train and support their Mac staff. "But I thought they were easy to use!" Yeah, easy to use, but you still have to know how to administer them properly.

    I suppose the benefit is that suddenly there will be a lot more people looking for Unix knowledge, and a lot more people trying to get it. I just hope Apple can find a way to support those of us who support them, by offering more training (the new AppleCare program is a start) or even...shudder...some kind of certification program, to separate the gurus from the weenies. Not that it's worked especially well with the MCSE...

    --
    I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
  7. Time to contribute by John+Carmack · · Score: 5

    I was elated when Apple announced the original Open Source Darwin initiative. I never would have guessed they would go for it, and I think it is a Very Good Thing.

    Getting everything together for a public release is a very non-trivial task. I know the hassles we go through, and darwin is 100x the size of our codebase.

    After all that work, including pressing CD's, it was met with a fairly resounding silence.

    The darwin mailing lists were dead. It sometimes seemed like there were a grand total of a dozen people with darwin installed.

    It was looking like this might go down as a large example of how going to the trouble of Open Source doesn't get you anything but hassle.

    It didn't help that darwin was basically unusable by itself, because all you got was a single very slow text console with messed up key bindings. Not exactly a happy development environment.

    (most of the active development work is done in the usable environment of OS-X server)

    The general response that interested people gave as to why they weren't doing any development with darwin was that "everything is going to change in the next release" (the driver architecture was massively reworked).

    Well, the new release is here now. There is still the problematic issue that you can't run ANY current gui on darwin 1.0. OS-X server and the developer seeds of OS-X client are both out of sync with the darwin codebase. All the excuses won't really go away until the next OS-X client release.

    A couple months ago, I took on the porting of X windows to Darwin, so it could actually be considered halfway usable by itself.

    I released the patches to get X windows running under MacOS-X server, which was basically the same core as the earlier darwin release.

    I was then given the same excuse as other people -- why bother porting to the native darwin video and input drivers if everything is going to change soon?

    As of now, I am actively feeling guilty about not finishing it. Everything is there for me now, I just need to find the time.

    I had been spending my weekends on either GLX or darwin X server work after Q3 shipped, but my R&D "research" has shifted to "development" faster than I expected, and the past few weekends have been monopolized by new engine work. I'll get to it within the next month, but if someone wants to pick up first, feel free...

    It may turn out that many of ESR's arguments just don't pan out for Apple, as far as having outsiders improve the core codebase. Even so, releasing the source will benefit Apple by giving application developers the "ultimate docs" on the OS.

    I think Apple deserves a lot of credit for the step.

    John Carmack

  8. Apple License-thoughts on it. by BoneFlower · · Score: 5

    Very good. I like it. Personally I would probably prefer it over the GPL on first reading, I'd have to print it out and compare it clause for clause to really judge. But at first glance here are the benefits:

    No royalties
    Source MUST be included if you distribute it, whether modified or not
    The license to use the code is automatically terminated if you violate it.
    You can distribute it ON YOUR OWN, you do have to register mods but are not prevented from distribution

    Apple does get full rights to use any of your code, but you still have full rights to distribute. Mods made for apple specifically are under whatever license apple wants, but personal mods are still under this one. Modifications are REQUIRED to be documented clearly.

    This is a great thing. You could take Darwin and port say BASH, other necesary GNU utilities and throw X on it to make a full OS. The license specifically allows you to mix it with code from other licenses, with the sensible provision that code under the Apple license is clearly marked as such. I would have to look at the GPL more carefully, but Apple seems to have made a far better balance between the interests of the otiginal developer and the interests of OSS developers in the real world than the GPL does