Slashdot Mirror
Manic Depressive Geeks
goingware writes: "I think a relevant followup to your recent article Slashdot meets the Pinkerton Corp. is the article Friends in High Places in the March 30, 2000 edition of the Metro San Jose. Included in the article is a link to a letter I wrote to Dave Winer's Scripting News about the relationship between programming and madness. The ad in the Metro seeking bipolar tech workers for the story promised confidentiality, but I chose to allow them to run my name and photo because I run a Web site for manic depressive people to educate them and their loved ones about the illness."
Really, this post is quite interesting, but I can't believe that so many programmers are manic. When the world is so wonderful and happy and bright, how can they possibly be sad?
But in the nighttime of the soul, when your world crashes down around you and you realize it's not even worth living any more, you know how right this article is. Just reading this is sending me looking for a razor blade.
But, look! The sun is shining outside! Why be sad! It's spring! The weather's getting nice, people are walking, the grass is green, and life is beautiful!
But if I get sunburned, I'll just be unhappy all week, and I'll be in pain even from my clothes rubbing against my skin. But how bad is that, considering that pain is all life is? How do I go on?
Oh, on such a nice day, how can I sit here reading Slashdot? I must leave, goodbye, goodbye!
Yeah, what are you smiling about? Stupid optimists.....
I'm not a diagnosed anything. Unless sarcasm counts as a mental illness (in which case, bring the straight jacket immediately!). But I'm not a dull pencil pusher eager to retire so he can sit in a rocking chair, either. I'm just a 22-year-old techie from the Silicon Valley with friends who are probably more or less aptly pegged in several different 'psychological categories' that they may or may not have come to accept -- but which I fiercely resent on their behalf.
-----
I'm not going to single handedly brush the entire board of mental problems off the table with any ignorant statement suggesting that anyone with a mental problem is a pansy who needs to get a grip and grow up. I mention this because there are people who do say this. A few years ago when I was still a teenager and oblivious to the complications of love, work, depression, loss and regret that people in the real world endure, I would have quite possibly asserted that very opinion.
There are genuine people in the world with tangible illnesses. People who cannot live with themselves or in a society because of various reasons which lead them to become incredibly reclusive and withdrawn (as in, building a compound on my land and hiding from the black helicopters and United Nations troops who are trying to subvert American government kind of withdrawn), serial killers, mass murderers, wife beaters or even to commit suicide.
It seems the goal of psychiatrists and psychologists to diagnose in every human being some horrid mental illness or individual defect which sets them apart from the sedated, unaffected, diluted norm of society. God forbid you be unique. There is no consideration for the brilliant artists, writers, musicians, architects, poets, film producers and others for whom such 'defects' give them an edge to life and an illuminated view of so much which the blind cattle who succumb to daily life submitting to the whims of corporate dollars, managerial demands and dull suburbia are oblivious to.
Unless you are affected to such a degree as to waver on the edge of being a sociopath capable and willing to kill (or physically harm) others, then you (again, in my opinion) suffer from no mental defect or chemical imbalance. Sure, chemistry plays an important roll in defining our propensity toward certain behavior. But that chemical composition and the propensity toward certain behavior is exactly what sets us apart from one another. To sedate by therapy, counseling or medication, that unique individuality granted to us by whatever cosmic coincidence or effort is a gross and heart-breaking attack on our humanity.
Give me the lowest lows of depression and the highest highs of deluded ecstasy and the clouded judgment of a manic depressive mind in action over the cubicle confined nine-to-five inactive, emotionally sterile subservient work-a-day drone's mind any day.
Insanity, wrap your warm and arousing arms around me and keep away the cold, pallid tendrils of sanctioned normalcy. Let the insane create, innovate and explore and leave the sane to sit in their offices counting numbers and selling their soul so they can go home and feed the mouths of their offspring for one more day. And insanity, for whatever humanity you posses, give their children the privilege to avoid normalcy so that they might enjoy life to its fullest.
---
icq:2057699
seumas.com
If you cannot afford one, you may be able to get help for free through government-provided mental health agencies in your community.
Even in the US which doesn't have free medicine, most places have some semblance of free psychiatric care that are funded by the states. You don't get a lot but it's better than not getting any help at all.
If you're in college you may be able to get treatment through your school.
Bringing it up with your parents may be a very difficult issue. In the long run it's best to involve your whole family in your treatment, but actually bringing that about may be very embarrassing and at worst they may have a very negative reaction. What's most important in the short term is that you share your feelings with someone you can trust who you think would be likely to be supportive and understanding - a close friend, teacher, minister, etc.
Definitely do get informed. There are a lot of good books, browse around the psychology and self-help section of your local bookstore. The main manic-depressive website is Pendulum and from there you can find links to sites on regular "unipolar" depression and other mental illnesses.
Other sites are:
- http://www.depression.org
- http://www.depression.com
- National Depressive and Manic Depressive Association
MikeMichael D. Crawford
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
Depression is an interesting thing. While I've had it since puberty (over 30 years ago), the efforts to "cure" it have universally failed for me. I did the therapy, did the drugs, did the lifestyle and diet changes, did it all. Several times. That's not a "been there - done that" line: I actually changed my life many times, over many years, to try to find a path away from depression.
So, while I am a person blessed with a good brain, good looks and a good personality, I tend to be a loner, unable to form and maintain relationships.
The problem, for me, is emotional expression and communication in real-time. Conversations about "important" things are impossible. Parties and family gatherings are torture, despite the fact that I dearly love my friends and family. Yet, oddly enough, I am a talented teacher and a good public speaker. I am not at all "shy": I just can't converse or relate well.
I did discover something interesting along the way: My depression allows me to bring amazing levels of concentration to bear on technical problems. It has allowed me to develop a career as a self-employed contracting software engineer for the past eight years. Depression, while taking me "away" from the world, also sheilds me from it, and all of its distractions, providing me an uncluttered mental field upon which I can wrestle with technical problems for days at a time. It is as though depression can, at times, double my IQ.
When one depression treatment or another would have some temporary positive effect, I found that while I "felt" better, and could socialize better, my work would fall apart! That's not to say it couldn't fall apart anyway: Severe episodes of depression wouldn't even permit me to interact with the world enough to even get out of bed. Fortunately, those episodes are relatively rare, but when they do arrive, they can last for weeks or months.
What to do? Give up? I have two brothers who have committed suicide, both of whom had mental disorders that included depression. The temptation is a siren song that promises peace and an end to pain. But it also promises an end to the few joys I do have in my life, and it is also an end to hope. And I'm a long way from running out of hope, and I doubt I ever shall!
As you can see, depression does not prevent me from putting words together and making a point. But it does prevent me from doing it very well face-to-face.
Combining the Internet with my technical skills has been a no-brainer. I am able to communicte just as well as any other Internet user, and probably better than most. With the Internet, I don't have to work during specific hours (though I do have to make the occasional meeting). I can do my work whenever I am able to, which always manages to include at least 40 hours a week. However, I seldom know just when those 40 hours will be... I really hate it when come in a bunch during a single weekend.
On The Internet, Nobody Knows You're Depressed.
And REMEMBER THIS: When I use the word "Depression" it is NOT a synonym for "sadness" or any other emotion. It is more like the meaning of the word when it is applied to a weather system, a "tropical depression". It is a mental "weather system" that enfolds and surrounds my mind, isolating me from the world and myself. During those times, I am restricted to living within the small peaceful "eye" of my depression. It's not really a bad place, but it is very small and confining, and I can see how it could easily drive people to deeper madness. Just as a sensory isolation chamber can do.
Depression does not make me "sad": But it does make me miss the world and the people, the life, I've withdrawn from. And that, in turn, encourages me to seek to do the best I can until the weather changes.
And, damn, I can sure craft some wicked code when the world does not intrude! Just so long as that "eye" doesn't get too small.
Anonymously yours,
-Me
Not to disrespect the other cultures reading this, but I'm an American, and thus, this post reflects my culture. YMMV for your country.
I've had at last count 4 friends with bipolar manic-depressive illness. One managed to succeed in killing himself: you may have known him. I lived with a mildly (ie, not bad enough to be clinically diagnosed, but definately there) bipolar friend for 2 years, so I've seen exactly what this does to people.
The real problem here in the US is the lack or recognition that mental illness is a real disease. Alot of the pseudo-bullshit "new" mental illness diagnosis that seem to pop up (with the sole purpose (or so it seems) to get compensation under the Americans with Disabilities Act) certainly re-inforce this view in the public's eyes. The shame that often goes with the formal diagnosis of mental illness merely is the last turn in a vicious circle.
In answer to the Pinkerton WAVE thing, the NYTimes has a great article on so-called "ramage killers". Guess what? A majority of them were diagnosed with a clinical mental illness. Were they getting proper treatment? Nope. Were they being supported in a reasonable manner? Nope. Hmmmmm.
A poster awhile back suggested that school children undergo mandatory psych exams, and that they be put on (drug) therapy if they showed any signs of being a "problem". Actually, I think the basic idea is a good one. Early diagnosis of a disease is critical to long-term survial (ask any doctor). The rest of the idea isn't so hot. But I think it would be a good idea if schools had everyone talk to a psychologist once a semester. It'd cut down the biggest barrier to helping those with mental illness - the stigma of asking for help. Kids would be able to get help without being even more of an outcast. And you'd have a great opportunity to bring in the parents, who are going to be the biggest help to the kid.
I don't think anything could have help Marty, as much as I wonder if there was something I missed or could have done. However, I'm now really sensitive to people who show any of these signs, and do what I can for them - which is often hard, as accepting such help is often the last thing someone is willing to do. <sigh>
Lastly, I don't see any particular concentration or statistical blip on bi-polar people being programmers/geeks. Sorry, but this is something that I've seen in virtually all sorts of people. It's a disease. Attempting to pigeon-hole bipolars as geeks (or vice versa) is incorrect. Period.
5 years, 2 months, 8 days - Marty, you idiot.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
A great article, but one thing worthy of note:
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to take a course in Abnormal Psych..One of the first things they told us before giving us our textbooks was, "Do NOT, I repeat, Do NOT thumb through this book, in an attempt to diagnose yourself. Chances are, there are 20 or 30 different illnesses in this book that you'll think you have. You dont. The process of diagnosing mental illness must be done by a qualified professional with years of training and experience.", or words to that effect.
IMHO, its been a fairly common experience..Getting too heavy into anything, computers included, will eventually drive you to the brink of mental illness. Coupled with the sort of lifestyle that hardcore geeks tend to exhibit, its no big surprise.
Human beings need sunlight, interaction, comfort, quiet, good food, clean air, and clear water. If any of combination of those turns bad, it will take a toll on you. It may not be when youre 15, or 20, or 25, but it will ultimately kick your ass.
Speaking from experience (I've had my share of extreme episodes of burn-out..) Human beings were not physiologically meant to intake egregious amounts of caffiene, engadge in countless hours of intense, non-stop stimulation and stress. The body simply isn't equipped to handle that sort of thing for extended periods of time.
Bowie J. Poag
Project Founder, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://metalab.unc.edu/propaganda)
Bowie J. Poag
First, I'd like to thank all the people who have written to me at michael@geometricvisions.com regarding their experiences with manic depression. I'm afraid I'm getting a lot of mail today so I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to respond to most everyone.
But if you're thinking of writing, please be assured that I take the confidentiality of people who write to me regarding this very seriously. If you like you can encrypt your mail with my PGP key
I want to respond to a number of things that have been posted here and also clarify a few things that were written in Kelly Luker's article about bipolar high-tech workers in the Metro San Jose.
A number of people have posted some very negative things about mental illness or about the mental health profession. While there are instances of bad doctors and certainly a long history of bad science and outright abuse in the history of mental health, there is no doubt that manic depression is a real illness.
This is evidenced by positron emission tomography scans of bipolar patients during various phases. PET scans measure the consumption of radioactive sugar in various parts of the brain.
Manic patients have strong positron emissions from the right hemisphere of the brain, showing that the right hemisphere is very active - suggesting a physical reason for the feeling of creativity and the overabundance of new ideas.
Depressed people have a reduced level of positron emissions relative to a normal patient.
A bipolar patient who is neither manic nor depressed will show a normal level of sugar metabolization.
The illness is thought to be genetic in origin, but the genetic nature of it is not well understood. Several times researchers thought they'd discovered the gene for manic depression but the discovery turned out to be wrong.
It happens that manic depression tends to run in families, but not always. It can appear spontaneously in a family, and after it does it will tend to be passed to successive generations and get worse with each generation.
I don't understand fully why but this is thought to suggest that the disease is caused by a certain morphology of mutation rather than a certain genetic sequence, and that this kind of mutation tends to get worse over generations. Apparently this sort of mutation is understood for other illnesses that do this so they think bipolar depression may work this way too. I'm afraid I don't have a lit reference but I expect I can get some.
Manic depression usually responds to medication. However it is very difficult to treat effectively. The illness varies quite widely in the severity and frequency of its symptoms among individuals, and each individual responds quite differently to the different medications.
It took about twelve years to find the right combinations of medications for me. I didn't work continuously to find the right combo, and in fact I went several years without medication - but it's important for any bipolar reading this to understa nd that you can go years with good health and become profoundly manic or depressed quite suddenly, as I did when I was hospitalized during graduate school during a manic episode.
Another problem is that doctors are often lazy or ill-informed about proper treatment. I was first prescribed lithium and nothing else, even though my most prevalent symptom was depression and I went years with fairly continuous suicidal feelings and no treatment at all for it.
Early on the only direct treatment for manic depression was lithium, so the mental health community seemed to have gotten this idea that lithium was therefore completely effective for everyone. The Only Choice != Effective Treatment
Another problem is that antidepressants tend to provoke manic episodes, especially if they are given without mood stabilizers like lithium, depakote or tegretol. Quite often the new patient's only complaint is depression and the doctor doesn't ask questions that would determine a history of manic behavior, so they prescribe antidepressants without anything to prevent mania, and the patient then has a psychotic episode, as happened to me when I was first given antidepressants and I spent six weeks in a psychiatric hospital.
The doctors then overreact and refuse to prescribe antidepressants at all, and the result is either a miserable life or maybe suicide.
Things are somewhat better now than when I was first diagnosed. Over time it was discovered that a number of epilepsy medications are effective mood stabilizers, and once the first such was found (tegretol) a large number of others followed (I take depakote, or valproic acid). This means that there is a choice for those who either cannot tolerate lithium (as I can't) or for who it is ineffective - lithium only reduces hospitalizations by about 50% overall.
The wide range of medicine and I imagine the overall advances in biology and medical research have combined to yield an understanding of how manic depression actually works in the brain. This understanding has only come about in the last five years or so, so now I understand drugs are under development that effect the processes of bipolar depression directly, by rational drug design.
Most of the existing medications were found to be effective by chance and no one ever understood how they worked.
I understand lithium was discovered because someone noticed that lithium salts made guinea pigs less active so he just fed a bunch of lithium to all the patients in a psychiatric hospital and the bipolar patients happened to get better - most likely the reaction of the guinea pigs resulted from lithium's potent toxicity; regular blood tests are required when one starts taking it because the effective dose is pretty close to the toxic dose.
But basically what got me better isn't just the medication, it was taking responsibility for and control of my treatment. Your doctor only sees you for an hour a week (or 20 minutes a month if you're in a typical state mental health program) while you get to experience your illness every waking moment (plus nightmares during sleep).
So really, if you suffer from this, what you need to do is get informed and get the right treatment. What form that may take I cannot really tell you, but for almost everyone, there is an effective treatment which is not debilitating. If your current medications don't work for you, work with your doctor to find better medications; just give time for the new ones to fully take effect before switching again.
I want to comment on the link between manic depression and creativity. Kelly Luker, the author of the Metro San Jose article, really didn't seem to get it when I explained to her that becoming manic was not a desirable thing. I really did take pains to explain it to her clearly.
Yes, the early stages of mania, or mild mania (called hypomania) do feel pleasurable so she really thought this was something to be desired and all us bipolar programmers were all fired up on our jobs while going through manic episodes.
But that's really not how it is. Mania is a profoundly psychotic state. One goes days on end without sleeping. Thoughts race and crowd the mind so fast that one is able to complete a concept in ones own mind - let alone say a complete sentence to another person. Manic people make extremely poor judgements and often act on them without any regard to the consequences - which all too often come to roost once the manic episode is over and depression sets in.
Hypomania can be a happy and productive time but only in short bursts; it can't be maintained. And for me, severe depression invariably follows any manic phase whether it is mild or severe, so I work very hard to avoid getting manic.
The important thing to understand is that while one feels creative while manic, true creativity only comes during the balanced times (I hesitate to say "normal"), and the work of the manic depressive to heal, as I have over the years in 14 years of psychotherapy, is to learn to live a balanced life without mania or depression.
The link between manic depression and creativity is extensively (and authoritatively) discussed in Kaye Redfield Jamison's Touched with Fire. She gives case studies of many famous poets and writers who were thought to be manic depressive (because of suicides, or manic behaviour) or actually known to be, and also quotes such studies as one about a prestigious writer's workshop, many of the attendees of which went on to commit suicide.
Jamison is a coauthor of the standard medical text on manic depression.
Dr. Jamison kept her own illness largely a secret during her training and career as a psychologist. But she discusses her own (and her father's) manic depression in her biography An Unquiet Mind
The subject of my letter Programming and Madness wasn't about how programming drove me nuts - it was about how it made me sane.
After I cracked up and left college I had no way to support myself, I was broke, hungry, miserable, sick, clinically depressed - not just sad but yearning to kill myself almost continuously, sleeping twenty hours a day.
I needed to find a place for myself in the world where I could live contentedly as the geek I had always been. My first love was, always will be physics (I did research on the 60" and 200" telescopes at Palomar Mountain, and did my senior thesis work for UC Santa Cruz at the particle accellerator at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland). But for some reason I've never been able to survive in the world of physics.
Working with computers, on the other hand, and in the community of computer programmers, I do very well.
It's my experience that there are a lot of other people in the computer industry, and in the scientific and technical world in general, who suffer from mental illness. "Unipolar" depression is most common but manic depression is quite widespread too. I know this both because I see it in others and sometimes we come out of our closet and, at work or on the net, we share our experience with each other. It's been a really long and complicated process for me to get where I am, and a big problem I faced when I first came down with it was a lack of good information. I'm trying to do something about it.
Imagine the day when you could ask a random stranger why the sad face and he'd feel perfectly safe in telling you "I'm clinically depressed". People will tell strangers about a lot of medical conditions, but mental illness still brings up images of Bedlam in a lot of people. And I'm afraid some of the worst stigma is actually self imposed; meaningless comments on the topic of mental illness can often have a devastating effect on someone who suffers from it, causing them to retreat far from the world of light for fear of exposing themselves when often their worst fears are mostly imagined.
I've used this sig for many years, I take it very seriously. Generally only my good friends understand the painful irony in it. I started using it shortly after getting on antidepressants after my first suicide attempt:
Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
Michael D. Crawford
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
I know it's flamebait, but I'll bite.
What is it with today's amazing variety of so-called "disorders" which provide the vast number of shrinks in the US with enough money to live like kings?
It's called progress. It's sorry-ass dumbfucks like you that oppose every advance society makes. If you were alive way back when, I'll bet you would have opposed heliocentrism, germ theory, and God only knows what else.
As for the high salaries that some doctors can make, I have no opinion on that. But psychology isn't the path to easy money. While there are some who do quite well, there are many more who struggle through a Ph.D. program only to find that there are very few teaching and counseling positions open at any one time.
I mean first it was things like "dyslexia" which is just an excuse for children who are lazy or stupid to get away without learning anything...
I'm sorry, asshole, but I'm afraid that dyslexia is quite real. The lawyer hired by DOJ to prosecute Microsoft is very dyslexic and to this day has difficulty reading. But he certainly isn't lazy or stupid.
There's something wrong about a country where so many people are brainwashed into thinking that they need therapy to lead a normal life...
I don't think that Americans are brainwashed into believing that they need therapy. If anything, we are so provincial that we ignore medical science when it conflicts with our age-old prejudices, even though medecine science is the among most sensible and rational institutions in modern society.
I personally think that we need to impose far stricter regulations on these snake-oil salesmen, because they seem to be working to create a society where anyone can do anything and excuse it on "Weekend Psycho Disorder" or some such nonsense.
Doctors are already heavily regulated! I think it is good that they are, too, since they have so much responsibility. Further regulation, in the manner which you suggest, will accomplish nothing, because there is such overwhelming scientific support for the existance of mental illnesses that doctors will get the clearance they need to treat their patients.
And as for depressed people, well, they need to get over it. It's not as bad as they think it is, and once they realise that they'll be alright.
This proves that you don't have a damn clue about what you're talking about. Sitting around feeling sorry for yourself is not the same thing as clinical depression. When people are clinically depressed, they cannot eat or sleep normally, they lose lots of weight, and suffer from numerous other, very real, physical symptoms.
Maybe they should look to the love of God's eternal presence for support in their darker hours.
Talk about snake-oil salesmen!! I personally think that if there is anything wrong with the USA, it's that there are way too many ignorant, stupid-ass ultra-religious folks running around, claiming that God's love is the answer to everything. Well, try telling that to someone who just broke his arm -- God's love is pretty worthless when you have a spintered bone poking out of your skin. Likewise, when the chemicals in your brain don't work, you need medecine that can correct the problem.
My suggestion to you and the others out there like you, is to move out of the trailer park, go to school, read some books, and learn to think for yourself. Just because Uncle Bubba said it, doesn't mean it's true.
Take care,
Steve
========
Stephen C. VanDahm
It would seem like always-depressed people would commit more suicides, but they don't because they often lack the will or power.
Manic depressants, however, have more of a reason to commit suicide:
First, they know what its like to feel REALLY good, so when they are down, it REALLY sucks.
Second off, when they're coming up or coming down, they have the energy and willpower to actually plan their suicide rather than just feel sorry for themselves.
Third, in their manic states, they might do something like blow off their entire life savings on some crazy risk! When they come back down and realize how crazy they went, they have more of a reason to end their lives.
Fourth, within due time, the gap between the depression and manic parts gets wider and wider. Think of a crazy rollercoaster going up and down. It gets BAD in this case, though.
Fifth, it is harder to treat a manic depressant because when they get better, they don't think they need the medicine, stop taking it, get worse. Repeat cycle.
Sixth, its one of those illnesses that's just tough as nails to treat.
Please add more to the list... and realize how significant of a problem this is. And someone else can take the torch besides the suicide problems, that's what I focused on. There are many bad things with family life and jobs and everything else as well. See ya
Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto
Berto
- Jeremy Fuller