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Sega Supports Emulation
rapett0 writes "Sega of Japan has decided to take a much welcomed step and support downloading and playing of Genesis/Mega Drive and PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 games on the Dreamcast via a service called DreamLibrary. Apparently they will cost $1.50 per download/per day and you lose the game after you turn off your system, but can redownload if you still have rental time left on the game that day. The same article makes mention that Bleem! might be released for Dreamcast as well. " Granted, this is only for Japan right now - but it's a cool step.
the convenience of paying $1.50 *every single day you wish to play it...*
Put Bleem CD in, boot it. Bleem plays nice little tune, tells you to put your other CD in there, you do it. Away you go.
...
Though I dunno if we're totally understanding this Bleem/DC concept. It'd be *cool* to be able to play PSX games on the Dreamcast with Bleem, but I think it's more likely that Bleem are doing a DC emulator of their own, a la Bleem PSX.
Still, if we do get Bleem for the DC (instead of Bleem *of* the DC), that'd give me more console space in my game system - I could sell the PSX, keep the PSX CD's for use with Bleem on my DC while I wait to add a PSX2 in the meantime.
It'd be great to see this sort of 'cooperation' between console giants, heh heh
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
"Maybe the price will go down with time."
You mean like the price of CD's and VHS tapes went down with time?
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
I'll accept that this is an interesting development, and perhaps even a good one, but in truth, it really scares me.
Perhaps I'm being old-fashioned here or even a classic trained-monkey consumer, but ... I really want to own it, rather than rent it.
Our economy today seems to be moving more and more away from individual ownership to centralized ownership where our rights to use an item or a service are doled out on a per-item basis. Consider the fact that almost no one leased a car twenty years ago; it was something of a right of passage to own one. ...but these days, it's far more likely that one of us will lease rather than buy. ...and consider the new "hot area" of the Internet: ASP (application service providers, that is) and thin clients. Will I be able to buy my proprietary software in the future, or will I have to rent a timeshare in a server?
I think this is certainly a cool development, but every time I think about the possibility of not actually owning something that is a significant part of my life, I get chills. Am I alone here, folks?
It reminds me of Nintendo's Satellaview system, where you could download games via satellite and then play on your SNES. This, a cooperation with Bandai and only available in Japan, had similar features (i.e. limited playtime, pay-per-play). It is probably best known in the West for its 16-bit remake of Zelda I as well as the game that would inspire Square's Chrono Trigger series. In fact I'm a little surprised that Sega didn't have something like this earlier like Nintendo. Sega was always the one experimenting with networking and such.
As far as emulation goes, this too is nothing new, emulators for Sega's systems have existed for free since console emulation took off in 1996. Nor is the fact that a large gaming company decided to no longer ignore its collection of old games really innovative. The PSX has seen many old SNES games being re-released on an emulator.
The only way this could be considered significant is if Sega will allow this to operate for a long time. One important aspect of emulation is the preservation of classic games and this could help Sega's classics to survive in legality....
- Also Sprach Doktor Merkwurdigliebe
Developing on the dreamcast system using the real tools is actually not very expensive. Sega even sells the development hardware at cost. I looked into it when I was poking at the OpenBSD/SH3->SH4 hacks. BTW anyone know what happened to that project? Might should ask /.
What is almost impossible to do however is obtain a development license. You must build a fairly reputable software company and demonstrate your ability to provide high-quality game releases (read: profit potential) before they will even read your app.
Then there's all kinds of exclusivity rights and things that cost you extra $$$ to get taken out of your contract (e.g. if you want to produce the same game for both the Dreamcast and the PlayStation)
On one hand, this leads to very good (or at least 99% bug free) games for any console. Imagine if Microsoft licensed windows application developers this way -- it probably would never crash.
On the other hand it makes it almost impossible for a small company to afford to develop console games and games notwithstanding, developing software for said system that is NOT A GAME is almost unheard of. Look at what happened to the "Game Genie" people that made the first "game enhancer" product for the NES - Nintendo threw them for broke with lawsuits. Luckily the GameShark guys handled development through the console manufacturers so they aren't out of business.
As far as I am concerned, software that is not games needs to make it down to consoles; and soon. The Dreamcast has been a very good step in this direction with Sega embracing applications other than games.
~GoRK
It's not $1.50. It's 150 YEN, guys. This is a different market. A CD in Japan costs way more than the equivalent 15 bucks that we pay. That's why very few people actually own CD's. They rent them for what we would consider to be a ludicrous rental price. It's actually a lower rental fee when you base it on a cost to buy/cost to rent ratio than we pay to rent movies here in the states. Video games also fall under this same umbrella over there too. 150 yen is a bargain even for the old games.
.50 - 1.00 day instead of ~ $1.51
If they were ever to make this service available here in the US, I think that we'd see more reasonalbe rates probably
~GoRK
Just a side note for those of you who are hailing this as such a "big deal" and "finally they get it" etc.
Nintendo developed and released their "super gameboy" product that allowed you to play GameBoy games on your SNES probably 5 or 6 years ago.
~GoRK
Probably. The DC uses a 200Mhz Hitachi SuperH processor and has a much more advanced graphics system than the PSX. The original PSX used a 33Mhz MIPS R3000 variant processor and a very simple 3D chip.
So basically the DC would have 6 clock cycles to emulate each of the PSX's clock cycles... Is this possible? I think so. Probably not by doing simple interpretive emulation... probably techniques like dynamic recompilation and just-in-time compiling would be necessary for full speed.
Using the more advanced graphics system of the DC, they could also add graphics features to the rendering of old PSX games (e.g. perspective correct textures).
My other first post is car post.
Nintendo has had their "Nintendo Power" system in Japan for years. You'd take a blank SNES/SFC cartridge to a kiosk and download a game of your choice to the cart. The only new thing here is that you can do it from home with the DC's modem. Plus this particularly announcement was made quite awhile ago. :P
(moreso actually if you apply the MP3.com ruling - now the "it's legal to download if you own the cart" argument is gone).
AFAIK, the MP3.com ruling said it was illegal for MP3.com to rip the CDs onto their servers, but it didn't address existing ownership.
Sounds like a ripoff to me. I'd rather just go out and buy the old consoles + games used at pawn shops or garage sales. And (depending on how often you play) it will also be a lot cheaper: I've seen SNESs and Genesiss (Genesii?) for $20-$50, and games for $5 or $10.
Anyway, it'd be fun having a half-dozen consoles, ranging from 8 to 64 bit, sitting near your TV. (Though personally I prefer Nintendo's games anyway, so an N64 and an SNES are all I need).
Cool! I can play Sonic the Hedgehog on the Dreamcast console. But there should be a "purchase" option or a "rent to own" option that after 20 rentals ($30) licenses the game to a user permanently.
But Bleem^TM for the Dreamcast console? Is it even fast enough to run PSX games at full speed? I'd think only PSX 2 has enough juice for that (binary compatibility is one of PSX 2's selling points).
Will I retire or break 10K?
For these old games? For a service that isn't costing them near that much? Umm, no thank you. It would be cheaper in the long run if you like these *old* (therefore cheap if you can find them) games to buy an old system and the games. Old consoles go for practically nothing.
A secondary benefit, of course, is that they can provide bug fixes in internet time (provided they set it up right.
In the long term, I think playing against "artificial intelligence" will always be less interesting then playing against flesh and blood other players. Obviously if you got connectivity for online game rentals, you've got connectivity to multiplayer servers. Now if we could just do something about those network latencies...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
It would be *much* more attractive if it was, say, $0.50 per day.
Sega has supported emulation for a _long_ time now. One example of this is that the Sega Smash Pack used KGen (obviously it was licensed from Steve Snake).
Of course, you can still buy a CD of some of the great old Sega games (for Windows, I haven't been able to get it to run properly in Wine though I suspect it can be done) that'll be it.
Sega has to support Bleem! because it was ruled a legal application by the courts. Of course, Bleem! faces Digital Millenium, and may lose the next round.
Y'know, I remember a time when, if I bought a game I could put it on my hard drive. These days, it seems like few of my games will run unless I actually have the CD-Rom disk in the drive.
Prediction, one of the first events following Sega's "generous" offer will be someone hacks a way to keep the game on their machine as long as they want... and, of course, Sega goes after them with a bunch of nasty lawyers.
I've been thinking of getting a Dreamcast (I still may) but I will not support this form of emulation because it is a threat to having games released in ownable format.
The companies can sell me their content, but if I can't own it, free and clear, I don't want it!
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
This was actually decided in the 80's. *IF* you are *NOT* a legitimate game developer, you *MAY NOT* dump the ROMs and use the dumped version. The backup clause says you may make *EXACT* copies of computer software, so yes, you may dump the ROM to burn a backup ROM set. But you cannot use the dumped ROM for any purpose otherwise (Unless given permission to do so, of course).
Game developers can use the dumped ROM legally, simply as the "reverse-engineering" way (how did this game accomplish X, Y, and Z?). This dumped ROM for game developers satisfies "intermediate medium" criteria, which is how Bleem! and Virtual Game Station managed to get rulings overturned (of use of the Sony BIOS - the intermediate file analysis of a dump of the BIOS is allowed to write the program).
Which, unfortunately, means all ROM sites are illegal. But, unlike Nintendo (which does not want to license old game ROMs at ALL), at least Sega is attempting to right that wrong by letting people legally use their ROMs.
Reference: http://www.emuhq.com/emufaq/mod2_pt2.htm (the parent to this file is an excellent source of legality information)
U.S.C. 17 Section 117 (Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs)
All legal/piracy considerations aside, even if
Sega brought this service to market (unlikely)
it would probably not be popular, and almost
certainly not profitable.
The atari 2600 had a similar service available...
the "Gameline" was a combination modem/storage
device that let you download a game over your
phone line. You could play it until the machine
was either turned off or the reset button was hit
six (?) times. IIRC, the service, like so many
atari accessories, was canned.
Of course, the atari 2600 didn't have a built-in
modem (you had to buy extra hardware), so the DC
has at least *that* advantage. I still don't see
this being a profitable venture for Sega. With
the gameline, at least you were getting "modern"
atari games... games that would otherwise cost you
$40-50 for the cart. Mastersystem/Genesis games
are not modern, and are practically free nowadays.
Oh well.
I am drooling over the vaporous pictures of a Dreamcast Ethernet adapter. You do know what this means, right? Once you get your console on a LAN, you just sniff the packets and reverse engineer the protocol. Shouldn't be too terribly difficult if a few people worked together. Then you save your own copies of the games, and server them to your console from your PC.
Blar.
Those were *AWESOME*! I could basically save my game ANYWHERE.... Very nice for shooters like Menace (Psygnosis)... (which were virtually impossible w/o it ;)
:)
Also built into that cart was a live memory hex editor, disk hex editor, sprite catcher/saver, sid catcher (you could scan the c64's memory for sound files of various types, and save the associated area of memory to floppy) as well as a few other options... I remember spending like 80$ for that thing, best $$ ever spent on the c64
I guess my favorite use for it tho was to get around the copy protection for games like Druid, Mission Impossible, Raid on Bungling Bay (very cool one) and Airwolf.... all of which had really nasty floppy based copy protections, AND completely loading the base code in ram... (they had associated data disks with the other levels on them, w/o the crazy copy protection....)
man i miss those days
Cybie! aka Ralph Bonnell
so what i don't get is why the hell sega would want a psx emulator on their platform. if people buy a dc and bleem, they can buy psx games and play them on their dc. the money for the psx games lines sony's pockets, not sega's. sega winds up losing money on the dc, and never recouping it on the software sales because people are buying psx games.
How many people, once they own a next gen system, will buy last gen's games? very few.
If it is true, thsi is a ploy to try and get some of the PSX owners to move up to Sega instead of PS2. One of the big selling points of PS2 is that you can still play your old games. If You can play the old games on the DC as well, for half the price, the PS2 suddenly looks less appealing. This, of course, only applies to mass market consumers, not hardcore gamers.
Once those mass market gamers get a DC, they will buy DC games, because those games are new, and are prettier than the PSX games they already have. It's all about gaining market share.
Josh Sisk
This just means that Sega is going to step up its anti-piracy campaign. (get paid) Nintendo of America Inc., for instance, doesn't even want players having ROM images of cartridges they own and even discredits freebeerware ROM development by claiming "emulators only support piracy."
Will I retire or break 10K?
This is a definite good thing - it shows that there actually /is/ a company that gets it :) After the whole Sony/Connectix deal a while back, it's good to see that someone does. Regardless of the pricing scheme of it, it's a good thing that they're embracing it at all. :) Perhaps some clue could be transferred that way.
Somebody needs to get the contact information for Sega, and send it to the RIAA.
-Denor
And while we're on the topic, why can't Sega release a public SDK for the Dreamcast so public domain stuff can be ported? There's a pretty decent effort going to port the Linux kernel to SH. It'd be really cool to see it on Dreamcast. No need to release the GD-ROM info to prevent pirates...all I want is to hook a hard drive/ethernet to it so I can roll my own Dreamcast software.
... like the attention span of the generation after you sucks. And after all, these are the ones that Sega are going to be targeting.
...
(I'm not saying your attention span doesn't suck, btw. It probably just doesn't suck as much as Generation X2.0, though...)
Sega will probably make, on average, about $10 per game, per user on this system, and it won't be coming from rational, attention-span-of-an-old-gnat types like you or I
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Secondly, this seems not much different to what Sony is doing with PSX2 - except Sony don't expect the owners of original PSX games to pay the extra to play them on their new console. Would I get a rebate for owning an original cartridge of Space Harrier for the Master System, or would I still have to pay?
Seems to me that Sega are desperately trying to catch up with all the cool features of PS2. I don't think they ever will. If Sega can put Bleem onto Dreamcast, Sony can certainly put some Master System emulator onto PS2!
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
Steve Snake got paid for his work. Given that he actually works for a Sega licensed developer (Probe, now part of Acclaim) and Sega could have raised a legal stink about it, the fact that they instead paid him for a custom version *and* let him continue distribution of the free KGen98 is very cool.
:)
Contrast this with Sony and Nintendo's shrill claims that emulation itself is illegal. Sega does act to shut down ROM sites, but regardless of how you try and weasel around it those sites are 100% illegal (moreso actually if you apply the MP3.com ruling - now the "it's legal to download if you own the cart" argument is gone).
Of course, I'm damn biased - I write console games for a living, and my continued ability to buy cool geek gear depends on piracy being shut down
so where is this going to go eventually..?
ROMs are small. Emulators aren't large. CDs are huge. you could probably fit every worthwhile N.E.S. game ever made into fifty megabytes. You could probably fit most of the worthwhile SNES and Genesis games into the 600 megs or so you'd have left.
I don't know how public the Dreamcast development process is, if you have to buy some expensive liscence or just grab a compiler or what, but if some *cough* third party could put together a couple emulators for the dreamcast.. just port the emus already out there, maybe throw in some debuggerish or game genie cheat modes..
well..
that would be one kickass CD-R, is all i have to say.
Too bad that the closed-minded game developers will never, ever allow such a cd to be published legitimately at any price, despite the fact they haven't made new copies of these games for years are no longer getting any money off them. Their loss.
Such a shame that copyright law is going to continue being extended until those games never reach the public domain..
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts