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EBay Pulls MS Auctions, Neutralizes Complaints
(Boy, a ten-day-old story. I need to start reading kuro5hin more often.)
Anyway, I know from experience that my chances of getting through to a real eBay person are approximately nil, especially on Memorial Day, so I'm not even going to try. Here are the questions I'd like to ask, and if some eBay staffer would like to answer them, feel free.
1. Regarding "VeRO," the Verified Rights Owner Program. Comments from sellers who have had their auctions yanked include:
- "I own this software. It is mine to sell."
- "Ended my perfectly legit sale."
- "I was forced to buy it from Dell, I should be able to sell it. www.linux.org"
- "I have the right to sell the Windows 98 I BOUGHT.. this is BULL SHIT....."
- "ended 2 of my legit auctions. won't respond to emails."
- "Legit auction canceled."
- "MS & Ebay Cancelled my perfectly legit auction."
- "copyright violation - on unopened retail box!"
These are not spurious complaints; they come from over a hundred eBay sellers with positive feedback ratings like 40, 253, even 476! Clearly these people are not scammers, they are legitimate and frequent eBay sellers who know the rules and who feel angry that they've been ripped off.
It is already apparent that eBay is ending perfectly legal auctions of E-Meters based on illogical and unfounded claims of copyright violation from the Church of Scientology. So "Verified Rights" doesn't mean much.
Can anyone at eBay confirm that each and every software auction terminated by Microsoft was illegal? And if not, shouldn't VeRO be renamed the "Unverified Rights Owner Program"?
2. EBay claims that, upon receiving VeRO complaints, it "reviews the reported items and, unless there is an obvious error, ends the auction." Were any of Microsoft's reports so reviewed, or were the auctions just immediately terminated?
3. Where on Questionable Items: Software is it indicated that software, unopened in the box, purchased at retail, cannot be resold?
4. Has Microsoft invoked a particular law - UCITA would be an obvious guess - in terminating these auctions? Or has it pointed to its license agreements (which for many of these auctions, apparently, would not apply)?
5. EBay's page about removing feedback doesn't mention cancelling rating of feedback, which is obviously a very important part. Isn't that misleading?
6. What did Microsoft do to get this special favor done for them - neutralization of their negative feedback? Does eBay do this for all their VeRO program members, or just Microsoft?
Update, 25 minutes later: gehrehmee pointed out Microsoft's internet piracy webpage (the URL got chopped, but deserves to be seen). Scroll to the bottom to read (emphasis added):
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours.
Phrases like "due process" and "guilty until proven innocent" are coming to mind.
After they decided that email inviting you to visit their site more often was "administrative", and changed their privacy policy to make it look like everyone had asked to receive email, phone calls, and other contact, I don't think anyone should have expected better of them.
eBay spams. eBay lies. eBay lies about spam, eBay lies about abuse in general.
eBay does not accept complaints about usenet spam or junk email unless the complaints come from registered users - and you can't be registered without giving them, in their opinion, blanket permission to send any email they wish to describe as administrative.
Even if you cancel your account, you may get additional email; I certainly did, as did a number of other people I know.
In other words, no surprise; scum is scum.
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Now, about potential remedies - first off there are dozens of eBay look-alikes out there. Yahoo springs to mind. Take your business elsewhere and let msoft@buddy.ebay.com know it. Also, I think it may be possible to trick eBay into tripping over itself: I say everyone takes their old copies of Windows 3.1 and puts them on sale. When MS comes around and tries to remove them, point them to the shrink-wrap license and let 'em know that it is perfectly legal to sell it. Oh, and then sue them, of course.
I would guess that Ebay can't afford to inspect each and every M$ software auction to verify an unopened retail box, or original M$ media. In the interest of not being buried under 100 tons of M$ lawsuit for failing to inspect one illegitamate auction, Ebay is deciding to end all auctions that M$ complains about. It's not fair, but it may be the only choice they have.
Ebay is a business. It's not financially sound for them to do anything besides what they are doing. Now is it right for M$ to put them in this position? Probably not. But somehow I don't see the government doing anything to stop them, and I don't see any private party with the required legal and financial backing to stop them.
Hello, I am in no way a M$ fan but it is important to remember that you do not OWN M$ software. You are licensed the software, a license in which they control. If they decide they don't want to let auctions happen they can. For example on the OEM License of Windows 95 it specifically states:
Software Transfer.
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only as part of a sale or transfer of the COMPUTER, provided you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE product (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity), and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must include all prioir versions of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
Therefore if DELL makes you have the OEM version of Windows then you can not sell it without the Computer you bought from DELL. So Linux.org's was not legitamate for example.
It sucks but it is one of the reasons that Microsoft may be 2 or 3 companies in 18 months. Be happy.
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They better not ban my sale of demon-summoning paraphenalia - I'll sue for violation of my civil rights to peaceful exercise of my religion!
Well, maybe the *demon-summoning paraphenalia will have to go - they do tend to get wild, although in a college town who can tell? - but the pentagram is entitled to precisely as much legal protection as the bibles. A quick check shows _2971_ items matching the search word "bible," so they can't claim that they ban all auctions of religious articles.
But what happens when my girlfriend, a defrocked nun, attempts to sell her old paraphenalia? Is the mummified toe of a saint religious paraphenalia, or a mere human body part?
(To be fair, eBay shows 247 items matching "pentagram", 335 items matching "satan", and a bit more seriously 908 items matching Wicca, 1349 matching Buddha, yet only 242 items matching Baptist. They haven't been totally taken over by the crazies, yet, but have clearly let specific controversies lead their policy decisions and are establishing bad precedences.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Not sure who's palm they greased for this but there treading on pretty thin ice. One of the few doctrens of U.S. copyright law that actualy works to protect a consumers rights is First Sale.
As long as I include the entire package that I origanaly payed for I have the right too sell it to who ever I wish and the manufacturur has nothing to say about it. Be it a book, a CD or a piece of software (whatever there licence agreements say, they've been chucked out of court to many times to count) it is a protected right for me to transfer my licence to whom ever I wish without consulting the copyright holder or providing them with a royalty. They have rights to the profits from First Sale and nothing more.
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"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."
-John Gilmore
Auction Sites
Test purchases and other investigations have confirmed that a significant portion of the Microsoft software sold on auction sites is counterfeit or otherwise infringing product. Microsoft has recently begun to work cooperatively with auction sites to help ensure that the software available on their sites is legal.
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours. The vendors are urged to end their illegal actions, and the bidders are warned and pointed to information on software piracy. Although this program started with eBay, Microsoft has also begun similar programs with several other auction sites.
Consumers should be familiar with the warning signs of illegal software and practice safe Internet shopping in order to avoid being victimized when acquiring software from Internet auction sites.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
Man, at least when Microsoft came after Slashdot, they didn't ask for their karma to be reset.
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
But hey- they just 'neutralized' the comments- that means they balanced them out right? I mean there must have been tons of positive user comments as well right?
I like this bit from the Ebay User Agreement:
Therefore, although we use industry standard practices to protect your privacy, we do not promise, and you should not expect, that your personally identifiable information or private communications will remain private .
It's always nice to see reassurance that "industry standard" means that your personal info or private communication need not remain private.
Even the RIAA is not going after people selling used or shrinkwrapped CD's.. Gah.
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air and light and time and space
Pretty soon they're gonna ban sales on pentagrams, demon-summoning paraphenalia, and the Necronomicon ex Mortii.
Is there anywhere on the web where it's still safe to sell Evil Things?
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
if you go to http://auctions.msn.com you will find a lot of MS software for sale. Are they simply killing the auctions at eBay, in order to get people to use ms's auction site?
Okay slashdotters, who's gonna set up the "Boycott EBay" site. We seem to have a boycott page for every other significant Internet Company, so how about Ebay.
On a related note, is there an index page somewhere which lists all of the current boycotts going on?
--------- Beware the dragon, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
I mean, its not like this would go unnoticed with the vigilant /. community on the prowl.
/. community's influence reaches? Slashdot's been misquoted in a couple of tech news stories and maybe one major publication. Most people who use eBay, I'd bet, don't read Slashdot.
And what exactly are the extents to which the vigilant
To MS, this isn't negative. They are 'defending' their copyright and property rights (although I think it's on rather shaky ground, their reasoning I mean). They have to do this sort of thing as part of maintaining their copyright. Microsoft would look a lot worse if they finally did manage to get a pirate into court and the pirate said, "But look, there was a lot of warezing going on right there on eBay and you did nothing."
First off, Microsoft does not need good PR or bad PR. Everyone knows who they are. They have a de facto monopoly on Windows systems. Moving away from Windows is probably hardest the move to make in the computer industry, and big companies who buy the majority of Microsoft products are not going to look at this auction as anything more than what a business needs to do, so they're not going to lose any customers there. The people this pisses off are the Slashdot crowd, who most likely aren't buying Microsoft anyway, again no lost sales there. As for the DOJ case, Microsoft telling eBay that it's piracy is happening and they need to stop it is not anything like bundling and the other issues involved with the DOJ case. Klein is not going to point at eBay and say to the judge, "Look at what Microsoft just did, Jackson! That should show they're a monopoly!" Jackson would laugh at him.
The real target here should be eBay, which has clearly violated its own stated policies. The issue here is not the fault of MS; it's that of eBay.
To summarize, it's part of business, Slashdot is not powerful enough to change the entire world's viewpoint on Microsoft, focus on eBay.
Apparently you're no longer allowed to sell things you've bought.
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
This is america, people.
Um, no, it isn't.
It's the Internet.
If it happens to be America where you type then my condolences. All you can do is emigrate.
Or do you have data that indicates that all halted E-Bay sales were by Americans on American soil?
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A rich couple found their ideal pet in a dog that makes e-mail programs.
"They have to do this sort of thing as part of maintaining their copyright."
I feel compelled to mention that you don't have to maintain a copyright. You have to maintain a trademark, but a copyright you can let one group go and enforce on another group, ie even though the warez d00d might say that they let people on eBay go, that bears nothing in court. They could probably come back asking the d00d for specific auctions which were illegal and see what happens. Moral: No, they don't *have* to do this sort of thing to maintain their copyright.
Of course, IANAL.