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Ask Havenco's CTO Anything You'd Like

Posted by timothy on from the does-neal-stephenson-get-a-backstage-pass?- dept.

A few days ago you read here on Slashdot about the datahaven called Havenco poised to open six miles off the English coast, in the semi-recognized, undeniably eccentric principality of Sealand. Havenco CTO Ryan Lackey has graciously agreed to answer questions from Slashdot, and to involve others on the Havenco team in answering questions he can't. C'mon -- how can you not be curious about an off-shore datahaven in an anti-aircraft bunker? Ask questions in the space below, and we'll forward 10-15 of the highest moderated ones on to Ryan. [Updated 15:40GMT by timothy:] Remember, many of the obvious questions are answered on the Web sites above or in the comments of the first story. Fire away with meaty technical questions -- they're up for it!

15 of 226 comments (clear)

  1. DoS by dingbat_hp · · Score: 5

    Sealand will inevitably have thin comms links and so will be more exposed than most to a DoS attack. Recent cases have involved ISPs pulling user sites simply for being attacked in this way - they accept the target site is blameless, but pulled it "for the good of the majority of users" and the restoration of their own comms.

    How would Havenco respond to such an attack ? Taking the moral highground, or the pragmatic approach of letting individual users be picked off ?

  2. Why and what? by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 5

    What motivates you to set up a data haven? Are you motivated primarily by libertarian principle, or do you intend it mostly as a way to make money from sealand's sovereign status? Or both?

    Will you allow data that does any of the following:

    - evades taxes or excise?

    - breaks local morality and legislated morality (including where oppressive eg: Iran)?

    - belongs to political dissidents?

    - belongs to terrorists, organised-crime, etc?

    - is uploaded and maintained completely anonymously?

    - is maintained with absolutely no access granted to anyone trying to prosecute on grounds of its content?

    Do you percieve what you're doing as moral? If so why?

  3. Connectivity by beff · · Score: 5

    I agree that the best method is to retain good relations with your neighboring countries, but if relations go sour, what technologies are you implementing to ensure that no other country can sever your connectivity to the rest of the world?

  4. Real sovereignty? by mpk · · Score: 5

    The Sealand folks seem to base their view of sovereignty on a decision in a relatively lowly UK court taken a while ago. While at the moment they may be nominally independent, it seems to me pretty likely that if the matter was taken either to a higher court or to the international community in general, it would really be found to be part of the UK and not a sovereign state at all -- and as it's an artificial structure, the Royal Navy could presumably claim ownership, as they put it there in the first place.
    Given this, and the fact that from what I've read, Havenco only has one connection to the outside world running directly to the UK, whereas a really useful data haven would, to my mind, need several connections to several different countries to be really viable or immune from legislative interference -- is this really intended to be a viable idea, or just a publicity stunt?

  5. Do you need any help? by BoLean · · Score: 5

    Is there any way that we internet users or the Open Source Community could help with Heavenco? Are there any specific software/software security need that you have? Have you considered working with individulas/groups from other countries to help politically support your operations from their native soil?

  6. user-side threats by laborit · · Score: 5

    Let's say that you do manage to completely secure your clients' hardware and data. Do you think you can also completely obscure the fact that said client is doing business with HavenCo?

    If so, may we have more details on how?

    If not, do you think that certain governments will make it a crime to simply do business with Sealand? I understand your explanation that you're not undermining the authority of other governments -- but you are undermining their power to legislate away certain activities to which they object, and I imagine they won't like that. In a world which places little value on a citizen's soveriegnty against hir government, there would be few reprucussions to (say) the U.S. making it illegal to purchase your services, but it would put a big dent in your ability to do business.

    - Michael Cohn

    --

    -----
    Go ahead, blame me... I voted for Nader!
  7. possible questions for HavenCo by leto · · Score: 5

    1...The website displays a copyright logo. Did
    Sealand sign the Berne Convention, and thus does
    it respect copyright?

    2...Explain who is the real owner, because outsiders are confused with havenco, principality-sealand.net and sealandgov.com

    3...Will I be allowed to store encrypted files there that HavenCo can't possible read, condone nor condemn?

    4...Why does Havenco insist on policies that allow them to remove content based on their disgretion? How many judges does Sealand have to deal with this, or will Joe random Sysadmin play judge?

    5...How will havenco prevent their backbone ISP or that ISP's country from interfering with Sealand/Havenco?

  8. HavenCo's justification by The+Dodger · · Score: 5

    What exactly is HavenCo offering? On the one hand, you refer to yourselves as "the world's most secure managed colocation facility" (setting aside for the moment the fact that HavenCo is not a co-location facility) and on the other, your website makes vague references to the fact that Sealand is a sovereign territory.

    Five years ago, when I first heard of Sealand and it's alleged sovereignty, I looked into it as a potential site for a hosting facility. However, I concluded that Sealand's claim to sovereignty wasn't anywhere near strong enough to ensure that it could avoid being subjected to British law (in particular financial law). Given the fact that it exists, in my opinion, because it's owners are viewed as relatively harmless eccentrics by the British authorities, and that it is not recognised as a bona fide principality by any other nation (notwithstanding the visit by a German diplomat), I concluded that if a hosting facility were to be established on Sealand from which, subsequently, actions were carried out or services provided, which sufficiently antagonised a bona fide government, steps would be taken to ensure that such actions or services ceased.

    In short, whilst the idea of Sealand existing as the world's smallest independent nation is a good read in the newspapers, and makes for terrific brochure blurb for a company like HavenCo, I don't believe it to be a truly tenable position.

    Security was something else I looked at. I looked at four methods of connectivity - fibre, microwave, sattelite and packet radio. Any means of connectivity (except, perhaps, for packet radio), exposes a "Seahouse" to the prospect of it's connectivity being shut off at the mainland (whether it be in the UK or the Continent). From a pure security point of view, fibre is obviously the best option. Microwave, sattelite and radio can be snooped both from Earth and space. Sattelite and radio links have their own problems with regard to latency.

    The provision of traditional utilities to a "Seahouse" present further problems - unless a cable could be installed to bring power from the mainland (which, again, leaves the facility open to being shut down by mainland authorities), such a facility must generate it's own power. I dismissed wind and wave as too unreliable, leaving diesel-based generation. This would be expensive and the possiblity of being unable to resupply because of bad weather arises (note that, at one point, Sealand was abandoned because of bad weather). Any interruption to power would result in disruption of environment control (AC, fire suppression systems).

    The actual environment itself was also a concern - I'm not sure how suitable a sea-tower is, as a facility for hosting sensitive computer equipment.

    Finally the security of Sealand itelf was a concern. I conducted an analysis aimed at examining what sort of operation would be required to attack, conquer or destroy Sealand. With the help of an individual with experience of this type of military operation, I determined that carrying out a professional operation designed to invade and seize terporary control of the tower, would cost somewhere in the region of £200,000 (around $320,000). This would involve sourcing weapons and experienced personnel, as well as arranging for a suitable method of accessing the target.

    Conquering the tower would be a different matter, requiring a long-term commitment to both the security and logistics of the tower. Destroying it by UDT methods would not be easy or cheap, although severaly disrupting it's habitability by something like mortar attack would be a lot cheaper.

    In the end, I decided that Sealand sovereignty/legal position, security and suitability as a hosting location were not up to scratch.

    I find it interesting that HavenCo have found otherwise. I note with interest that the HavenCo website indicates that they intend to open hosting facilities in other countries, and I find myself wondering whether the SeaLand thing is merely a publicity stunt/gimmick, purely for the purpose of impressing the press, potential clients and investors.

    Finally, addressing that issue of the definition of co-location. A co-location facility allows companies (typically telcos, ISPs) to locate equipment within the same building, to enable interconnect/exchange of IP traffic. HavenCo says that it will not allow clients to place it's own equipment in the facility. If this is the case, then HavenCo's Sealand facility will be a hosting facility, where clients are constrained to choosing equipment which HavenCo can supply/support.


    The Dodger
    dodger@2600.com

  9. What will you do WHEN you get shut down? by joshamania · · Score: 5

    I haven't seen this question yet, so now I ask. In order to do the proper due dililgence on this matter, I would like to know what you will do when you get shut down? I don't think it likely at all that the UK will not take a serious look at what you are doing and disagree with it. They are not going to allow you to operate within their territorial claim and not be subject to their laws. Period.

    I've read that you have plans for other locations, but the information was very vague (as is this question ;). What do you plan to do when, either the UK invades, the US invades (highly likely from where I sit, there are entirely too many people in this country that think that my business is their business), or some non-governmental organization invades? Why wouldn't some unscrupulous individual bent on corporate espionage and blackmail just hire some mercenaries and come steal your servers?

    I love the idea, but this is just ridiculous. Unless you've got unlimited capital coming out of your ears, this is not going to happen. Even if the governments leave the physical location alone, they are bound to shut off your land lines. Satellite bandwidth is beyond prohibitively expensive right now and will remain so for many years. Do you plan to launch your own satellite and man your own ground station in some secret location in order to maintain connenctivity? Even that wouldn't be enough. Governments would find that and shut it down too...

  10. Why do you need physical security at all? by Jamie+Zawinski · · Score: 5

    Lots of people are asking questions about physical security, and how you're going to repel missiles and commandos, but I've got the opposite question: why do you need physical security and a physical location at all? Would not the best way to protect your customers' data be to wrap it in hard crypto and distribute it far and wide across the whole of the net, ensuring that there is not a single point of failure or a single physical installation that can be isolated?

    As we've seen again and again recently, the best protection against censorship and other legal attacks is massive redundancy and decentralization.

  11. International Affairs by panda · · Score: 5

    According to the Sealand Government web site, Havenco "will now take over operations of the government of Sealand." As I understand the other text on the same page, it is generally believed that the government of the UK would not interfere in any acts of piracy, terrorism, or assault on your "territory." Since you are now within the limits of the territorial waters claimed by the UK, you probably won't have to worry about a full-out assault from a sovereign nation, but another attack like that of 1978 could happen again. Of course, there is nothing but a few court rulings to protect you from Her Majesty's Armed Forces.

    Given the precarious nature of the "sovereignty" of Sealand, will you be seeking international recognition and treaties to guarantee your physical security from such attacks? Will you be joining any of the international protocols for cooperation in law enforcement or other areas? I would think that joining these would go a long way to cementing your viability.

    --
    Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
  12. Is this site permitted? by broody · · Score: 5

    After reading your TOS I have become rather curious in regards to the following cluase:

    Unacceptable publications include, but are not limited to:

    1. Material that is ruled unlawful in the jurisdiction of the originating server (Such as child pornography, in the case of our flagship Sealand datacenter)

    In the case of the Sealand datacenter, what are some of the limitations?

    Please note that in the following examples I am not equating one example with any other or implying that any of the following should be censored; rather they are examples of what I would consider sticky wickets when running a "data haven" and wonder how such things will be handled.

    Imagine the following:

    I am a rabid anti-choice activist in the United States. I wish to post a site with a hit list of doctors performing abortions in the United States. After each "accident" I wish to mark them with a big red X. I publish detailed information on how to find each of these doctors.

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a hacker who wants to play DVDs on my Linux box and I want to use free software. I want to place source code on my website. The United States says this violates some stupid law and some annoying people object.

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a devote Iron Chef fan and Fuji TV has just sent me a cease and desist order. I wish to move my materials to Sealand.

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a regular guy in the UK creating a website about my daily life. Some people don't like the way I talk about them and my site is pulled.

    Is this site permitted?

    Will you allow sites advocating the overthrow of rival goverments, challenged uses of intellectual property, bomb making instructions, and other information that will get other nation-states panties in a twist?

    --
    ~~ What's stopping you?
  13. Points of Contact to the Internet by gregor_b_dramkin · · Score: 5
    What will you do when pressure is exerted on your landlubber ISP to shutdown your connection? Move to another ISP? What happens when no one else will give you bandwidth? A renegade server farm doesn't do any good if no router will accept its traffic.

    Don't say it can't/won't happen. Unfortunately, it can and probably will.

    --
    You can never equivocate too much.
  14. Web Email (was: Re:Disconnected Living) by xyzzy · · Score: 5

    Ooo! The more interesting question to ask is:

    Can I get (either for free, or since this is a business, for pay) an email address at havenco.com, or some other domain hosted at Sealand?

    In reality, the most important data any person or organization has is their email! It can be read, spied on, subpoenaed, etc. I'd pay MONEY for this service.

    Will Sealand be getting a top-level country code? If so, you could also sell domains, but let me say that I think the hottest idea is selling web-based email accounts.

    Dibs on "billg@havenco.com" :-)

  15. Disconnected Living in a Connected Business by Amoeba+Protozoa · · Score: 5

    Setting up a company on a remote island, even one that doesn't require a lot of on-site workers, was undoubtably difficult.

    What were the major challenges of setting up on the island? How many people, and what sort of equipment did it take? Is there more left to do?

    What are some of your day-to-day facilities like (food, shelter, perhaps even recreation)?

    What is your daily cash burn rate? Are there ways to cut it?

    Are you making a profit now? If not, when do you plan to be able to?

    Do you have a plan in case of a hostile take-over?

    Where can I send my resume? :)

    Interesting concept...I wish you luck!

    -AP