French Prosecutor Opens Echelon Probe

gillbates writes: "A French prosecutor is conducting an investigation into the workings of the Echelon system. The article is here, and it details how France is concerned that Echelon is being used for invading its citizens' privacy. France lost a contract with Saudi Arabia due to Echelon, and knows it. How much else will they learn? My question is: What's going to happen to U.S./European relations when they find out the truth about Echelon?" SWroclawski [Updated 6 July 2000 by timothy: sorry 'bout the spelling, Serge! :) ] points out this link to BBC Coverage, noting "France's laws on privacy are very strict and in a world where one's rights of privacy are being challenged all the time, it's good to see one country taking a stand."

Comments

NSA Testimony on Espionage against US Citizens

[CrusadeR]

Saw this at the Cryptome... General Hayden basically gives a rundown of all the legislation and external oversight which prevents them from spying on every John Foo and James Baz in the US:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv /NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/22-01.htm

As stated on the scan, this was made in the spring of this year, presumably do to Echelon-related fallout.

Echelon and the People of the U.S.

[Tiro]

What's going to happen to US-EU relations when they find out the truth about Echelon?"

Another important question is, what's going to happen when Americans find out what is going on? Less than a year ago, on 60 Minutes, a woman stated that she had heard Sen. Strom Thurmond of South Carolina on a telephone wire tap in an Echelon center (I believe it was in Britain). Any such intrusion is not only in breach of Echelon's internal policy as stated by the NSA (no spying on US citizens) but a severe breach of the Senator's civil rights.

If I recall correctly, the basic point of that story was that American intelligence is using Echelon stations in Britain (and the foreign agents running them) to get around the rule that bans surveillance on U.S. citizens.

After this current round of accusations, the story has been all over the mainstream media outlets.

The answer to the question above is nothing. On the whole, Americans just don't give a damn. In fact, they seem to like the idea of their intelligence looking after them, despite the inherent risks and problems it creates.

I have talked with all my friends, some of them extremely well-informed and intelligent people, and I could barely get an ounce of concern out of them.

Great Echelon Link

[nstrug]

Some of you may have seen this before but it's worth repeating - Mark Thomas has set up a company that runs balloon flights over the Menwith Hill NSA facility in Yorkshire, England. The balloons are equipped with parabolic microphones and binoculars so that you can spy on the spies. Check here.

BTW, do any Brits think it is a gross breach of sovereignty to have foreign bases in the UK? I mean, how would Americans feel if foreigners set up a military base here? Maybe there are foreign bases in the US and it's just a NATO thing...

Nick

French Black Bag Jobs

[dschuetz]

"France's laws on privacy are very strict and in a world where one's rights of privacy are being challanged all the time, it's good to see one country taking a stand."

Before we all get on the "France is standing up to government intrusion" bandwagon, let's remember that France is well-known for "borrowing" travelling executives' laptops at customs, long enough to copy the entire hard drive. And they have, at least once, completely trashed the hotel rooms of major aerospace executives during the Paris airshow to gather information.

France has been in the forefront of government-sponsored economic espionage for some time, so this whole "Echelon is bad" is fairly hypocritical.

For further information, check out Secure Computing's April 1998 issue (the first hit I got from google, I'm sure there's plenty more out there): http://www .westcoast.com/securecomputing/1998_04/cover/cover .html#French.

david.

We have it right in the UK .......

[Lowther]

The UK government's Regulation of Investigatory powers (see notes on it here) has got it exactly right. It going to insist that every UK ISP fits hooks to their infrastructure to allow them to tap e-mails and web traffic, at the ISPs expense. Not only that, but they are enshrining it in law, and talking about it publicly !

Now that's open government for you....... It dosen't solve the problem of your diminishing privacy, but, being British, they are nice enough and fair enough to tell you about it first.

(.....Sh*t - where is the HTML irony tag when you need it ....)

And the French don't?

[BobandMax]

Anyone who believes that the French are not engaged in espionage against the United States and that information does not make it to state-owned or quasi-governmental entities like Airbus, is naive. My sense is that they don't like the scale, style and effectiveness of the eavesdropping.

All countries engage in espionage. Due largely to resources, some are more effective than others. It is also meet to remember that nation-states do not have friends, but national interests. I'm not saying that I like the Echelon program, just that we are not alone in the pursuit.

"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."

Re:This ought to be good...

[Seumas]

Well, considering that Congress held a session regarding Echelon (if I recall?)... I would tend to say it more than likely exists. The last people to know are those that are being spied upon (aka: the American population itself).

I'd like to see all of the patriotic American nationalists that we have in this country, flying their red white and blue on their pick-up trucks and snapping at any two-bit 'hippy' that dares suggest America isn't the greatest nation in the world, react to having every bit of communication recorded and played back to them, from their email and letters to their phone calls.

And - damn it, I'm going to pimp this book again. DATABASE NATION by Simson Garfinkel. This book should be read by every geek, grocery clerk, grandmother, businessman and government official. While it is not the most in-depth book, it is the best brush with which to paint a general over-view of the demise of privacy to those who are otherwise completely oblivious to it.
---
seumas.com

The Australian Conspiracy

[Netsnipe]

The BBC article states that Echelon is "used principally by the United States, but Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand also have access to it." Being an Australian, this is the first time I have personally heard of this allegation, but I am not surprised at all when I consider it in account with the recent passing of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Legislation Amendment Bill as well as The Telecommunications (Interception) Legislation Amendment Bill. This was recently covered by a Y ahoo! article, but shunned by the mainstream media in June. (Is there a regime of censorship occuring here too?)

This bill allows the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) to enter, modify, delete or copy data as well as disabling any cryptography one may be running, in order to make it easier for them to get future data. Despite the Attorney General, Daryl William's reassurances that the legislation was "designed to ensure an appropriate balance between individual privacy and the public interest in effective law enforcement and national security;" and that an access warrant is required in these cases, I am fearful of the abuses that are bound to follow. Under this act, ASIO will be allowed to cover up the fact that they hacked into the system and will not be subject to the Crimes Act that forbids computer hacking in Australia surely raising the possibility of framing dissenters and now under the auspices of business, perhaps conduct industrial espionage.

Have these recent laws been instituted in order to legitimise hacking by the Australian Government and pave the way for the legal usage of Echelon by the Australian government? Is there some greater conspiracy I am failing to foresee? I hope not, otherwise my future civil liberties online are already under great jeopardy.

Re:Uhh, WHAT?

[Tet]

I believe France has recently 'lightened up' on the use of encryption

Yes, they have. In fact, they've gone quite a long way, much further than was needed to pacify French businesses. As a result, they've changed from being one of the most oppressive countries in Europe with regards to encyption, to one of the most liberal. See http://www.info-sec.com/cr ypto/99/crypto_020699a_j.shtml.