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Why We're Still Stuck On Earth

Once&FutureRocketman writes: "The latest newsletter from the Space Access Society contains an insightful article (the first one after the introduction) on why it still costs so damn much to get into orbit. The reasons are, quite unsurprisingly, much more political and economic than technical."

13 of 304 comments (clear)

  1. Restructuring space flight by bat'ka+makhno · · Score: 5

    Oh boy, I dread the day when the blueshirts at SpaceFlight, Inc. will start trying to raise profitability by cutting costs. "In related news, an aging Airbus A600 operated by United Airlines has suffered structural breakup during an emergency atmospheric reentry. Large sections of the Boston area reported contaminated by nuclear fallout."
    --
    Violence is necessary, it is as American as cherry pie.
    H. Rap Brown

  2. Space Costs by cybercuzco · · Score: 4
    As an aerospace Engineer, it really frustrates me that the Government doesnt do more to encourage bqasic science in this country. Why the heck do they think were the most prosperous nation on earth? Coincidentally, its because were also the most innovative. Unfortunately, congresses short sightedness will lead to the eventual downfall of American innovation. We can already see that Asia is beginning to take up the slack in the consumer end of the spectrum ( Anyone want to buy a playstation 2?) Either the Government will wake up and realize that basic science will and can keep us as prosperous as we are, or were in trouble. Maybe I should learn Japanese.

    --

    1. Re:Space Costs by gazdean · · Score: 4

      >"As an aerospace Engineer, it really frustrates >me that the Government doesnt do more to >encourage bqasic science in this country"

      Shurely you mean "encourage qbasic science in this country".

      Yeah that's the problem, nobody programs in qbasic anymore ;-)

      --
      "You can catch flies till the cows come home, but wasps are a totally different kettle of fish."
  3. The real issue ........ by Lowther · · Score: 5

    What chance have we of escaping the gravitational pull of the Earth ?

    We are incapable of training our kids to resist the gravitational pull of a McDonalds.

    We are also incapable of producing policemen who can resist the gravitational pull of a doughnut.

    By the time we colonise another planet, if ever, KFC will have already sold franchises there. Mark my words ......

    --
    Stephen Hawking has written another book. It's about time as well.
  4. American indifference to space by Jon+Erikson · · Score: 4

    Why are we still on Earth? Because nobody really cares about space any more. Back at the time of the Moon landings people cared, it was a matter of national pride to Americans to get there before the Russians did, and because of that the Americans were able to spend a rediculuous amount of their national budget on a trophy project with no real value.

    But now you can't even get funding for NASA to buy extra pencils without Congress screaming bloody murder, and the public are so jaded by "yet another shuttle launch" that they'd rather watch "Armageddon" than anything happening in the real world. The current generation of Americans seem to have lost their fire; without the Red threat there is no real motivational force in the American psyche.

    Of course American is now just one of several players in the space market. Whilst its vast body of experiance languishes, becoming more and more obsolete, other nations are still expanding their space programs.

    Who'll be the next on the Moon? The Chinese is my guess. And they'll be doing a lot more than putting a Red flag there, because their space program is still on the up.



    ---
    Jon E. Erikson
    --

    Jon Erikson, IT guru

    1. Re:American indifference to space by barawn · · Score: 5

      I don't really think it's about "caring", I think it's more about "importance." The fact is is that space offers nothing to us at the current moment. It only holds the promise of more to come. Think of what's up there currently - defense satellites to protect the Earth's nations. Communications satellites to link the Earth's people. Spy satellites for national security. Our satellites are almost all turned inward, and the relatively rare few which are actually looking towards space are doing pure science, rather than any commercially benefitial ventures.

      Apollo was, in my opinion, somewhat of a mistake. We went there to Get There (tm). It served no practical purpose whatsoever, and once we got there, the public was basically done with it. Why? Because our job was to Get There (tm) - and when we did, well, that was that. Good job. Now go home.

      Take a good look at the Human Genome Project. It got funding, it still has funding, and it completed (mostly) recently. It'll still get funding for a while, because it can genuinely and completely claim legitimate viable commercial interests.

      Take a look at the NASA programs which get funding (and there are quite a few) - Hubble, for instance. Why? Because the public likes Hubble - it generates a commercial product (pretty images). This sounds quite stupid, but it's true, strangely enough!

      Personally, if the Chinese get to the moon, I think all they will do is put a Red flag there, then come back. Why? Because we don't have anything else to do there yet that will make the cost viable.

      America is definitely not languishing when it comes to space science - it's the entire world. The nations with developing space programs simply have not reached the plateau where 'getting to space' has been accomplished, and 'doing something there' hasn't had to be examined yet.

    2. Re:American indifference to space by barawn · · Score: 4

      Considering I *am* a scientist working in a field of science that is science for science sake (particle astrophysics - REALLY just pure science... we tried to bull a reason once just for fun, and it took a lot of work), I find this greatly amusing.

      I'm (obviously!) very very for pure science. However, what I'm trying to say, is we will never capture the mass media's attention. Ever. We never have - and we never will. I didn't say I didn't see any value in pure science - in fact, ALL I see is value - but I don't see any economic value. And economic value is what puts bread on the table for people. Literally. People will not sacrifice their livelihood for the possible massive gains of the future. Not even scientists.

      On a side note, I've begun to notice in people two qualities - first, a 'Golden Age' idea, which is that there must have been a time when things were better, and a 'hero' idea, which was that there were visionaries and heroes who somehow saw beyond the immediate moment. The funny part is both are wrong.

      I've got a guess on the first - people's memory degrades rather drastically over time, so I'm figuring that people simply don't remember the bad parts, and only see a happy haze in the past. Note that as people get older, they get much more conservative and "When I was your age..." ish, though this is very anecdotal.

      I don't know about the second. The fact is is that there were no visionaries, or heroes, ever - not the way that we see it. So many of history's 'heroes' are created by history itself - by media placing people in far higher lights than they themselves were. Einstein was raised to far higher levels in death than in life, as were people like Washington, Lincoln, FDR, (insert president name here).

      Then again, as Star Trek said, "Don't try to be a great man, just be a man, and let history make its own decisions." (paraphrased - I must be getting old too)

  5. Good article - general flow of science and life by barawn · · Score: 5

    This was a good article, with a good analysis of the current market state of space launches. Not all that surprising, in my case - this is what you deal with when you have an out-of-house company doing rocket launches (or a government agency - say hello to pork barrel). Unfortunately, this is the way that economies work in a capitalistic and democratic environment, because, quite simply, people are selfish.

    Democracy will always have inefficiencies like pork barrel projects - people do not see 'national' benefits, they see local benefits. This is not a human flaw, this is a sort of information filter. The entire economic state of the nation, PLUS one's normal daily routines would be impossible, so we filter it down to the important issues - the local ones. So, if you want the *people* to govern themselves (and don't even think of doing a true democracy... nothing would get done) you split the country up into multiple sections (states, in our case) and let representatives from each one of those states do the governing. It makes sense - there isn't really a better alternative. However, your problem, flat out, is if you want the body of representatives to deal with the money allocation of the nation, you're going to have pork barrel projects, because in order to stay in office, they need to be noticed. In order to be noticed, they absolutely have to do something that their constituents will see.

    That's government for you - but what's causing the capitalist companies to do what they're doing? The same thing - individual short-sightedness. Look at history - history has shown that any time one company starts to make a run at a new market, another one will start chasing after it, and they'll innovate, innovate, and innovate. However, Lockheed-Martin and Boeing et al. aren't chasing after the cheap end of launches. Why? Because there's no guarantee they'll win. It's not safe. Not only that, it's extremely risky. The better method for them is to attempt to slowly cut costs here and there (not showing the dropping cost to the consumer, of course... a price war would be bad. You might not win) and quietly funding research here and there, possibly.

    Price wars are bad for the big players in a market - a lot of times they lose. Look at Intel and AMD, Amazon and (insert anyone), Apple and (any of the PC manufacturers nowadays). In each case, a price war started, and suddenly the original big player (Intel, anyone in the book selling business, and Apple) lost out - in some cases almost catastrophically. Price wars are good for upstarts - not necessarily in government spending (sometimes, though) but in the consumer market definitely.

    What I take from this lesson in economics and politics is this: if we want to get cheap launches into space, we need to realize two things: don't look to politics, first off. Politics is propaganda, because with a nation of 300 some odd million people, it has to be. And second off, you need an upstart. Someone needs to found a cheap-space-launch business that works. It might not have the highest volume of Lockheed-Martin, or Boeing, but it would make government contracters ask LM and Boeing why their estimates aren't lower. And since LM and Boeing and others will simply buy out the first few upstarts, you need to keep founding them (if you're smart, you'd be one person, founding multiples of them with the same money that the major players give you :) That's probably some sort of fraud, however...)

    It should also be noted that the "flat...flat...flat... holy crap!" cycle is very common. Computers definitely follow that path as well, and we can again see that upstarts coming in were the major players in shaking up industries (first Dell/Gateway/Compaq/Packard Bell, now Emachines).

    NASA is also funding a program besides the SLI program - the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program, which is designed to very much so overcome the problems in spaceflight by poking at the holes in science currently.

    If anyone out there is a student looking for an area of physics to study, look carefully at the BPP page, and follow my advice - find the 'holes' in physics which were found by EXPERIMENT, rather than by theory, and stab at them several thousand times over until they pop. My personal best bet? Anomalous weight changes over a superconducting surface, and the Casimir effect. Try everything. Literally. Chances are, at some point, you'll get something that makes people go "Huh?" - and at that point, you've hit on something, and go at it like crazy.
    (BPP project: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm)
    (I don't use HTML tags because I'm lazy. Sorry. Chalk it up to humanity.)

  6. One way to cut costs by Veteran · · Score: 5
    Fact: In an Apollo moon launch 70% of the fuel used is burned in getting the missile from 0 to the speed of sound.

    Fact: Most of the weight of the first stage is in the oxidizer. (liquid oxygen).

    Question: Why are we carrying oxygen around in the atmosphere?

    It seems to me that jet engines do a good job of handling the 0 to the speed of sound part of the speed range. Using jets in the first stage has a number of advantages:

    1. Jets are much safer than Rockets.

      Jet engines are available off the shelf.

      Jet engines have a much higher specific impulse than rockets (Isp = pounds of thrust / pounds of fuel burned per sec)

      Jet engines are reusable.

      A Beowulf cluster of Jet engines (sorry, I couldn't resist the Joke) would generate large amounts of thrust.

      A launch with hybrid Jet engine first stage would be much less expensive than a pure rocket launch.

    I suspect that the first stage of boosters use rockets because "That's the way we've always done it".

    Comments from veterans at NASA or other space agencies would be appreciated.

    1. Re:One way to cut costs by SpotWeld · · Score: 5

      You idea is esstially correct, and a lot of research is being done with air breathing rocket engines. However, the main reason why rockets carry thier oxidizers is that they fly vertically instead of horizontally. As you gain altitutde th character of the atmosphere changes drastically. It thins, the ambient pressure drops, its oxygen content changes, and its temperature drops (then rises, then drops again. In addition air contains a large amount of nitrogen, an intert gas that will do very little to contribute to the genreation fo thurst. Designing an engine that can cope with the full range of changes from sea level to near vacuum would require a level of complexity that is staggering. Most jet aircraft are designed around a small rage of altitudes that it will be flying in. Passengre jets are horribly inefficient at take off, and the SR-71 (famous for its mach 3+ speed) is also known for being totally useless at low altitues and low speeds. To use "off the shelf" technology a hypothetical spacecraf would need to switch from turbo jets, to ramjets, then on to scram jets and maybe rockets.. as was proposed in Spaceplane project. Each engine being designed for a specific rage of altitiudes. Air breathing rockets are possible, but not yet practical. I am not a NASA opffical, but I do have a degree in Aerospace Engineering if you were wondering.

      --
      ..of ships and shoes and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings.
  7. Re:Bean counters again by barawn · · Score: 4

    I hate to say this, but the country's actually got it right this time. NASA isn't pointing this out to the general populous because the general populous wouldn't take notice. It's not tangible - it's not real. You can firmly say that "Yes, I'm all for space research" but when it comes to funding it, most people would rather have well-kept roads.

    Let me put it this way. If everyone on Slashdot donated $500 to NASA for BPP research, that would be a serious hell of a lot of money - probably close to $50 million dollars - definitely not paltry research money! Everyone on Slashdot could afford $500 - really. You might have to tack it onto a credit card bill, or eat a little lightly for the remainder of the year, but you could afford it. But this won't happen. No matter how much I would yell and scream, it won't happen - because, unfortunately, it will not directly have an affect on you. Some of you might do it - those who the $500 is nothing at all - but most probably wouldn't (including me), because the effect is not tangible.

    In my regard, this makes sense. You cannot estimate the financial benefits of space research. Period. The estimated benefits to humanity are actually somewhere between 0 and 6 times the cost of it. Note I included zero - it is entirely possible that the research would find nothing.

    Has this happened? Oh yes. Tons of people are staring at general relativity, and have been staring at general relativity for dozens of years, trying to find the 'Holy Grail' - a metric which allows FTL travel with normal matter. It isn't going to happen - it doesn't exist. Sometimes we have to accept that life doesn't provide us with an easy way out. (That, and theory has never done much to revolutionize normal people's lives
    - it's all experiment).

    Research, unfortunately, cannot be looked at logically. It is a potential benefit, rather than a guaranteed benefit.

    On a side note, I don't think the US Government is failing. It's working exactly as it always has, and was intended to - media tends to put it in everyone's face more, and so, eh, public opinion is kinda down, but public opinion isn't exactly a 'national health indicator'. I don't know why exactly you think the government is failing (there has always been corruption, immorality in office, and short-term benefits rather than long-term planning) but to me, it just seems running perfectly fine. I don't let a dream of a perfect world (or even a 'better world') get in the way of my view of reality. Fact is, you start dealing with 300 million some odd people, and the government's not going to be great. Especially when (by all standard indicators) the country is exceptionally wealthy.

  8. Mass fraction at fault by waimate · · Score: 4
    Let's face it, for as long as our means of getting from planet A to planet B involves throwing most of ourselves away at high speed, we're never going to get anywhere in any practical sense.

    "Mass Fraction" means you're lucky to get a couple of percent productive payload because you're using a newtonian reaction drive. Unfortunately that's all we know how to do at the moment. But it means you throw 95% of yourself away to get to mars, and then 95% of what's left away to get back.

    Clearly the corolory here is you have to start with a lot of stuff, and that's what makes space expensive.

    The fault isn't with government or big business, it's with our current state of ignorance of useful physics. What NASA needs to do is more of what it's doing a tiny bit of right now, and that's finance radical new propulsion concepts.

    Check out NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program.

    Yeah, sure it sounds like star-trek, but remember that landing on the moon sounded exactly like the most fanciful science fiction only a few decades before. Get over reaction drive limitations, and then we're going places! . Keep throwing yourself away to go somewhere, and you're staying firmly at home.

  9. Re:The cost of lowering costs by w3woody · · Score: 4

    I take it this means that if they get the costs down, the government would insist that they charge less so they wouldn't make any money anyway. It's a fair comment, but I don't completely agree with this.

    Unfortunately, that is the current financial situation "enjoyed" by government contractors today. This sort of ass-backwards thinking has been true for the last twenty years or so.

    The idea used to be that the government would simply buy a product from government contractors, and it was up to the goverment contractors to figure out the cheapest way to fulfill their end of the contract. If a government contractor could make a huge profit by figuring out a cheaper way to do things, then they got to pocket the profits as a reward for innovation.

    As far as the government was concerned, this created two "problems." First, bureaucrats were uncomfortable with the notion that a contractor would use it's profits from a prior assignment to perform R&D on a future assignment in order to maximize profits. (Yes, I know--this is how the private sector works. But from a government bureaucrat's point of view, this is the same as stealing from Peter to pay Paul.)

    The second problem was that the public (read: politicians) disliked the notion of people getting rich off doing government work. Something to do with class envy or some such bullshit. At any rate, the notion that several companies could make billions by providing the government inexpensive state of the art products ahead of the and under budget is evil to many politicians.

    So now modern government contracts have built-in profit margins, and are required to pass on savings back to the government or being penalized by lower contractually mandated profit margins.

    That is, the government in essence requires the savings to be passed back to the government. That's why no-one cares that we're one mega-merger away from a monopoly in the airospace market--because government contract work is so heavily regulated it makes the electric company regulations of a half-dozen years ago seem like Lassie-Faire Capitalism by comparason.

    The upshot of this is that it is in the best interest of Lockheed to keep launch costs at the top of the inelasticity plateau, because it maximizes their profits given the current regulatory environment.

    Personally I think it's stupid--and it's why we see things like $8,000 toilets and $600 wrenches. It's also why we see an absolute lack of interest on the part of Lockheed to innovate except in the more esoteric areas of DoD spending--because all financial incentives for Lockheed to do anything other than what Congress directly mandates has been stripped from it.

    That, combined with the "spend it or lose it" mentality of the Federal government's budget spending process, explains in large part why we can have so much waste while we simultaneously shackle some of the brightest minds on the planet.