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Earthlink Refuses To Install Carnivore

A reader wrote in with story on C|Net that Earthlink has said that it will *not* install Carnivore, the FBI mail snoop program. Earthlink has said that it will cause disruptions to their customers, and thus refuses to install it. I'd say that's valid. Cringley has a story where he suggests that Carnivore is really about giving the government the power to shut down the Internet.

9 of 316 comments (clear)

  1. This might not last by Elyas · · Score: 5

    The article says they are not putting it on because it is incompatible with there system, would cause disruptions, and needs some technological modifications. They are CONCERNED about privacy issues, but didn't say no based on that. Unless this is just a delay tactic to try to build a case against Carnivore, it'll probably just go away once the FBI patches the system

  2. Lesser of two evils? by SupahVee · · Score: 5
    Here is a question that I just thought of...Which is worse, that the government is trying to snoop on you without your knowledge, or that a business can usurp the power of the government, and refuse to comply for 'business' reasons.

    Remember, the RIAA and MPAA are both carrying out their little crusades in the name of 'business' reasons.

    --
    "See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
    1. Re:Lesser of two evils? by shaper · · Score: 5

      Um, it's called civil disobedience, a basic responsibility of any free people. And a citizen cannot "usurp" power from a democratic government, by definition, because supposedly all government power belongs to the governed to begin with and is merely loaned to the government to promote common good, defense and stuff. So your concern might better be stated in the reverse: the government usurping a business' rights to free association and enterprise, as well as citizens' rights to freedom from unlawful search and seizure, in order to support dubious efforts to combat possibly nonexistent crime.

  3. Whoa by dragonfly_blue · · Score: 5
    Cringley's column gave me shivers. I don't know that he's right, but it's definitely going to be a problem if the FBI installs the Carnivore boxes in-line with the main routers.

    I think it's great that the FBI is using Carnivore, though. I mean, what better way to promote the usage of newer, secure protocols such as IPsec, Secure Shell, SCP, and privacy suites such as Pretty Good Privacy? And what better way, I ask you, to promote the retirement of older, flaky, insecure protocols like telnet and FTP?

    Well, something will eventually make people switch. Might as well be the Feds.

    Still, I think Earthlink is justified in denying the FBI the ability to shut off their service at random. That's just too much power, plain and simple. I hope they take this to court and win.

    --
    Free music from Jack Merlot.
  4. The Cringley Article by delevant · · Score: 5
    Cringley (sp?) suggests that the FBI wants the power to shut down the Internet.

    Why would they want to do that? There's no real reason that I can think of, unless they want to destroy the U.S. economy in one fell stroke.

    Instead, I suggest that they're using Carnivore as the thin edge of a very big wedge. Sure, they could sniff email traffic without a big black box. But by using a box, they get access to ISP premises every time they get a wiretap order.

    With big ISPs, they'll probably be installing those things several times a year. Eventually they'll be able to say "hey, why don't you just let us leave this thing plugged in?".

    Then, rather than having to go and plug in their big black box every time they get a wiretap order, they'll have the boxes all plugged in all the time.

    And that's when we'll find out that those boxes can do stateful packet inspection if asked. Next thing you know, they'll be able to physically prevent you from seeing "unauthorized" data on offshore servers. Kiss that data-haven goodbye.

    . . . but then again, I'm feeling paranoid today.

    --
    I have no .sig, and I must scream.
  5. god given right by kootch · · Score: 5

    I do love how we all feel that the Internet is a god-given right.

    On a day to day basis, I think most of us forget that the internet evolved out of a government program and not through open-source advocacy.

    And yes, the FBI also has the right to be able to intercept both your phone calls and your emails if you are under suspicion. No, they can not block you from sending or receiving, but they can look if they have substantial evidence. And yes, there are laws to make sure that they aren't looking unless they have substantial reason to be looking.

    and while they have the right to look, users also have the right to encrypt their email to prevent this.

    so instead of whining about your god given right to snoop-free internet access, actively protect yourself by encrypting your emails if your privacy is so important to you.

    1. Re:god given right by Zak3056 · · Score: 5
      I do love how we all feel that the Internet is a god-given right.

      On a day to day basis, I think most of us forget that the internet evolved out of a government program and not through open-source advocacy.


      I fail to see how these two statements are mutually exclusive. Or are you forgetting that little blurb about Of the People, by the People, and for the People? It really pushes my buttons when someone basically says, "It was developed by the government, so consider yourself LUCKY you can use it."

      My tax dollars (okay, not many of those, as I was only born in 1974. But the tax dollars of my parents) went into creating this technical terror, and I will be damned if the DOJ takes the attitude of "we built it, so we can listen in"

      --
      What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
  6. Many of you are missing the point... by isaac · · Score: 5
    Earthlink is not saying "We won't cooperate with the FBI", they're saying "The Carnivore system is incompatible with our architecture". Big difference.

    Cringeley is right to be concerned about the CPOF implications of having FBI-controlled boxen sitting at the edges of American ISPs, though. Think about this in the context of the Internet Gambling Ban headed down the pike. Or the Drug information censorship act (aka, "Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act", now buried in a bankruptcy-reform bill in conference). Sure the courts will probably strike down the prior-restraint provisions of the latter, but imagine a bill that doesn't address the publishing, but merely gives the FBI authority to "kill-file" a certain class of sites at the ISP level, without actually restricting the right to publish per se.

    Having consulted on a computer crime case for the FDLE, I've seen the "us-against-them" mentality inside the investigative law enforcement community first hand. "Them" doesn't mean just "criminals" either - from the LE perspective, there are only 3 types of people in the world: cops, convicts, and suspects. That the FBI (with their sterling history since the days of J. Edgar) would be on the leading-edge of such surveillance/enforcement techniques is wholly unsurprising to me.

    -Isaac

    --
    I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
  7. My God it's happened! by streetlawyer · · Score: 5
    NEWSFLASH

    In a shock development, noted Karma whore Signal "Siggy" 11 has become a troll! Perhaps demoralised by the constant pressure of the fatwa or "trollslap" launched by his enemies, he released a post full of trollworthy statements. In one post, he combined:

    • The incorrect technical statement: Witness the "NSA key" in Windows 95/98/NT/W2K
    • The moronic political view: Someday, someone is going to need to devise a technical solution to these political problems
    • The ludicrous hyperbole: This is why they are so afraid of geeks - they know we have it within our power to end this form of tyranny for good. We are in control of the ultimate modern day press.
    • Another maddeningly silly technical statement: until we rearchitecture the network to utterly defeat measures like this (transparent crypto?)
    Clearly, Siggy's move into trolling will put pressure on the established slashdot trolls to compete. In a CNN inteview, streetlawyer, speaking for the notorious inchfan troll collective said
    "It's gonna be a challenge. Siggy obviously has huge name recognition, and one has to think that he's using his brand unfairly to push into new markets. But I'm not excessively worried. His tech-ignorance is something that we've been doing for a long time, and his sub-Katz geek politics are really to Karma-whorish to show that he "gets it" with respect to trolling. He's got quite a nice line in spurious logic, but he's no Dumb Marketing Guy. Bring it on, motherfuckers"
    Rob Malda was unavailable for comment.