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Looking For Better Linux Customer Support?
Deven Phillips, CISSP asks: "Recently, the company that I work for bought some VA Linux servers for our network and Web site. I was the one who recommended VA, due to the idea that they would give good technical support. When we purchased the servers, we were a bit dismayed by the fact that VA would not install Mandrake on our servers. Never to be daunted, we ordered the servers, and installed Mandrake ourselves. One of the servers (our file server to be) wouldn't load, wouldn't boot, and wouldn't even give us a good error indication. This is exactly why we chose VA, customer support. We returned the server and requested an immediate replacement. We were told 'No problem'. After the 7th day, still not being built. At two and a half weeks we got our server. The server came back to us missing parts, and still suffering from the same problem we were having before!"
"What ever happened to tech support? It used to be that companies would trip over themselves to make customers happy. Today it seems that unless you are spending 1 million plus dollars, they could give a crap less. When spending $12K plus on a single server, you would expect that the thing would work, huh? Are there any vendors who do provide good all around customer support these days?"
Not wanting to wait any longer, I offered to drive to their office to pick it up once it was ready, as I lived nearby. When I arrived, it was sitting in a box at the receptionist's desk. No one even bothered to wait with it or to meet me and at least thank me for shelling out $4k for their hardware.
VA doesn't need to hire any more linux gurus, they need to hire some customer satisfaction experts. They'll never see another dime from me.
I looked into what happened with this ticket and, after having talked with this customer and gotten his ok to post about it, would like to share with you what happened, where we made mistakes and what we are doing to fix this.
As noted in the post, one of the machines that the customer recieved had some problems coming up. This was a problem with the raid subsystem that prevented boot up.
After a telephone conversation, Mr. Phillips sent the machine back to us to work on it.
We replaced a drive in this machine shipped it back, and the problem was still there. The machine shipped out working, all I can assume is that a shipper dropped the machine (hard) or something.
Once he recieved the machine and it still ahd the problem, we opted to build him a new machine. During burn in there was problem with the memory that necessitated the replacement of memory and retesting. This is park of the 2 week delay we talks of.
So while hardware failures during shipping happen, we made a clear mistake by not keeping the customer informed of the delays in burn in.
Then we shipped the machine back to him.
At this point we discovered that we forgot to add an extra nic that was part of his order.
Again, our bad, we screwed up. He took the nic from the original faulty server (he kept it while we worked up a new one for him) and put it in the machine, which worked fine.
At this point it was 30 days or so from when he received the first bad machine in his order or 4 machines.
We saw the /. post when it went up on slashdot, called the customer and talked with him regarding the screwups on our part and to make sure he that the machines were (now) working fine and that there wasn't anything new that we didn't know about. There wasn't. And he was very surprised it had gone up on slashdot :-)
So there you go, that's the whole story a mixture of human error and lack of notification on our part, burn in delays, and shipping issues combined to make a bad customer experience which we clearly regret.
All I can say is that the human error can be minimized to a great degree, shipper problems can be pretty out of our control (we do use sturdy shipping containers, but you wouldn't believe what we've seen happen in shipping) and communication is now in an improved state and be clear all of our techs know that keeping the customer continually informed is the right way to do things.
So there you go, if anyone has any questions, you can post them here, email me at jritter@valinux.com or call at 408-542-5722.
As a side note, a lot of people have posted that the customer doesn't deserve support and got what was coming to him since he removed our software load. That's totally incorrect, VA still has a responsibility to ship good product and support said product. When someone replaces our load, we still try to support it, but it does make it harder and increases troubleshooting time. Note that hardware support doesn't go away becuase of mandrake being installed.
I want to assure people that while this was bad, it is the exception, while it seems weird to say this here and now, VA has a very good record of dealing with support issues. If you have any questions about how we do things here, please post them and I'll answer them here.
Jeff Ritter
Support Manager, VA Linux Systems
We've been experiencing similar problems with VA recently. Within the last year, we've had 2 RAID problems. The first time, it took over a month to work out the issue (we had to wait for a new scsi cable, then a new backplane, then a new card - which finally fixed the problem). VA was in no hurry to send parts (I had to bug them four times before the replacement Mylex 960 was finally sent).
Recently, our RAID died after a power outage (overheated, I think). It's a production system, but it took them four days to get a replacement Mylex 1100 to us, only to replace our current card and find that it is actually the disk array. VA refused to send us a new one as a replacement - they told us to send ours back and they would fix it, but wouldn't guarantee data integrity (eg, if they erased it, tough).
I've been terribly disappointed with how much trouble it takes for us to get past level 1 tech support, especially since, up until about a year ago we provided VA with more than half of all their business.
We've tried other vendors (Aspen Systems for one), but they haven't been able to ship something without it getting damaged in transit (three times now!).
Certainly tempts me to open my own hardware business...
geoff@uslinux.net
http://uslinux.net
This is how I would rate experiences with them:
- Linux Hardware Solutions: totally didn't have their act together, one guy was trying to sell them, build them and do tech support it seems. Good thing they got bought.
- Dell: Dell still has a long way to go learning to do Linux. Other than the Dell desktop background, they do very little to tweek the distro from what I have seen. They are trying to sell to a NT crowd, but mess up. For example, when you order a Dell with a tape drive, they don't have enough sense to include BRU or something, or even make sure there is a device in
/dev for it. New users are stumped by this. Granted, of them all, Dells are built the best. Rare to get a DOA Dell, and when you do, you can ship it back and get a new one fairly easily. Average time for a new system: one month.
- VALinux: Is the biggest of the linux only group. Their manuals are nicer and more refined, as are their servers. You will get DOA equipment from them like 1 times out of 10. They are pretty good at replacing, but this can vary. As can how long it takes to build them. I have gotten a VA in 1 day (they keep some in stock pre-fab) and I have had one take 2 months. Average is 1-2 weeks. Their SECOND tier tech support is pretty good. They also provide nifty things like the vacuum program to remote admin via serial. Better to stick with their distro unless you know what you are doing, and the poster CLEARLY has no clue if they are installing mandrake on a server. I always install Debian on them with no problem, except for RAID cards, which is getting better.
- Penguin is smaller than VA, and their systems/tech support are about the same. The advantage to them is they are 3 floors up from me, and the DOA system I got from them, I just hauled it upstairs, but did take 2 weeks to get a new one (granted, they just changed their tracking system and things were a mess.) Build times are from 1 week to 3 weeks. They have less "gurus" than VA but do good testing. They are cheaper than VA.
- Cheapy guy that makes Yahoo's boxes. These are 1/2 the price of the others. Dont expect ANY tech support if you go this route, you are on your own. Almost 1/2 of these had problems. Yeah they are cheap, but is it worth your time?...
Things to consider with ANY hardware manufacturer: You are dealing with cheap (yes, $12,000 is CHEAP for a server) systems here. Margins are razor thin. No one has the bucks to blow on stupendous tech support, NO ONE. If you want tech support that will WOW! you and systems that are almost NEVER DOA, you get a Sun, period. Quite frankly, if that is the level of support you want, you PAY for it, and pay dearly. Instead of $12,000 for a cheapie Intel box, expect to pay $50,000 for a Sun. Is it worth 5X? Well, the quality is there, and yes they are paying you a premium for a premium product. Just like the profit margin on a top of line BMW is much higher than an escort. If you buy an Intel box as a server, you are getting an Escort, expect the same level of quality.So, when it comes to buying Intel Linux boxes, I guess what I am saying is that they are OK, but don't EVER expect to be WOWed by tech support. If you are serious and have a good admin, you will be OK. Obviously yall DONT have a good admin (eg, the mandrake thing) and are paying the price. It doesn't pay to be cheap. Go get some one that knows what they are doing, you can't expect the tech guys at a manufacturer to be your admin for you and answer all your questions and hold your hand. The $500 they made on that $12,000 system gets eaten REAL quick paying some one $30 an hour to sit on the phone and guide you through the pretty mandrake install.
Ah ha ha! You posted this knowing full well that it would be moderated funny, discrediting the truth behind VA owning Malda! You are using reverse-reverse-psychology! You're probably invested in Andover and use Microsoft Windows and hate Linux to boot! The truth is out there! Aliens are posting on slashdot! New coke was a government mind contol test!
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Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
Remember that today's computer companies often make tiny margins on their sales.
Remember also that computers are complicated things, regardless of the operating system being used. Users will always call up with stupid, basic questions, wasting the tech support time (and therefore budgets).
In a stint where I did a lot of help desk tech support, I'd often get stupid questions about why is the monitor still black (turn it on), why doesn't the RAM I bought fit into the computer (I later found out the guy was trying to stuff it into the floppy disk drive but that thought *never* crossed my mind when I was on the phone with him, killing an hour of phone time), your computer must be broken because I can't get Yahoo to work (Failed to Connect error - the guy didn't even have a modem, let alone an internet account anywhere). Granted, with a rack-mounted Linux server, the questions will be a lot less basic, but still equally stupid to anyone really familiar with Linux. These will *hog* tech support time and dollars.
Customer service has had to become a thing of the past, unless you're willing to call the helpful 1-900 number or fork out your Visa on a per-incident basis.
That's the way it is and will be for the forseeable future. Unless you're in women's fashions, where the markup is often well over 100% and the number of possible tech support questions related to the newly redesigned belt buckle and zipper are limited.
It's simply not built into the cost of the sale anymore. It's a good thing, too - if it were, an el-cheapo Celeron could run way over $3,000.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Some other good points of ASLab is that they'll also build systems (including rackmount) with Athlon CPU's, which, along with price, was a critical factor in my choosing them.
Check them out at http://www.aslab.com if these are the sorts of things you're interested in. :)
What does their choice of distro (i.e. "going their own way") have to do with hardware failure, delayed replacement of failed hardware, and missing parts?
Slightly disreputable, albeit gregarious
Malda suppresses anti-VA stories because he's owned by them!!!!!!!!!
Oh, wait a second....revise that conspiracy theory a little bit for extra paranoia...
Malda is only posting this story to lull us into a false sense of saftey with him! He's throwing us this little scrap of a "VA sucks" post on slashdot to make us THINK that he's not owned by VA, but in reality, you know he really is. You can just wait for the other shoe to drop!
Does that about cover the bases here? Or is there some extra piece of paranoia I'm missing out on?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
I purchased a car that they said would work great with the 91+ Octane gasoline. I didn't like that octane gasoline, so I put jet fuel in the car. Now the car won't work and after I sent it to the shop, it's back with parts missing. What is wrong with ?!?! What ever happened to service?
Moral of the story? None really. Just be glad it's VA and not IBM. IBM would have just told you to stick the server up your butt after hearing you installed Mandrake.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
The thing is this is -very-- good for VA, as we get to learn the problems with the machine before we put it into major production. We take the term BETA seriously here.
That said, I'm glad you like the web based admin and such. The machine that the original post was about wasn't the NAS at all though.
Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
You've leaving out enough detail that it makes me wonder whether you actually know what's wrong with the computer.
Obviously VA won't support your installation of Mandrake. They will likely support the hardware (1 year warranty is normal, with support contracts extending it) and the pre-installed software.
If you want to get some real support from them, put their version of redhat back on and prove that it doesn't work. Telling them "I installed another OS and it doesn't work..." makes you a candidate for the USER=ID10T registry entry. If you must, install win98 on it and tell them exactly which hardware doesn't work. If you discover that win98 runs on the system just fine, and all the parts work, then VA delivered exactly what you paid for, and they are under no obligation to provide support for your non-standard use of their product.
Of course, it could be that you've done enough troubleshooting to indicate exactly what's wrong with the server, and shown VA that it is their problem. If so, then you certianly have a right to get VA to fix it. (but you should have given us a better proof that VA actually did something wrong here...)
-Adam
"I must know what you do to write about women and their feelings so well?"
"It's easy. I think of a man, and take away reason and accountability."
As good as it gets (movie)
(Slightly) off topic, but I also had a problem with VA Linux, I ordered two desktop systems that never arrived (although they were charged to my credit card two days after I placed the order).
Eventually VA refunded my money (6 weeks later) but not after multiple calls to customer service. The best part was that everyone I spoke with tried to talk me into accepting the charges and letting them ship the computers, even after I told them that I didn't need the PCs since I placed a similar order with another vendor.
When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
Since that initial rough spot, everything has been rock solid. And, given all the extra bits they tend to include with their boxes (Full On 2x2 here), I would seriously leave their custom RedHat in place, since it has the bits for remote status reporting and hardware raid management in place.
Installing new hardware in a production environment is such a pain anyway (as demonstrated above), messing with the system OS, when the supported OS is perfectly fine, is just asking for trouble IMHO.
--Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
I'd like to second Mr. Phillip's experience. In my last job we purchased some VA equipment and were largely disappointed in the hardware. When we ran into problems with it, we were even more disappointed with the support.
When we decided we want to purchase some upgrades (new raid chassis and disks), we found the experience even worse, as we encountered delays, misinformation, and the sort of runaround that makes it clear how much VA values their customers.
My recommendation is to go with a major vendor such as Compaq, HP, etc. The equipment you get may cost a bit more, but it will also be of far higher quality. And it will still run Linux.
--
Lars Kellogg-Stedman <lars@larsshack.org>
The problem i see with the current support options for companies who don't have people in house (the office i work in is 100% computer geeks, so needless to say, we _are_ our own tech support), is that most support options are very platform/processor/distro dependant. Companies specialize in one or another thing, and are afraid to do anything else. Sometimes the best solution is a combination of solutions... At work we have 1 NT machine to run legacy apps, 1 BSD machine to run mySQL, 1 Linux machine to run a cluster head/job dispaching program, and several BSD machines running jobs for the cluster head, and then most of our generic networking/routing/filtering/serving sort of machines run Linux of one flavor or another.
The trick is that each job calls for it's own special configuration. What we really need is a company that hires a group of geeks with diverse experience, and who are willing to learn new stuff at customer request. Have the customer pay by the man hour above a certain yearly amount pre-included in their plan, and have all your geeks watch some central job dispach system and take jobs that they are interrested in, or that land in their area of knowledge. I think that this will take more effort than the average scheme, but i think in the end it's worth it because you don't have the problem of stubborn monolithic support companies who work down their problem tree and can't help you if your desired configuration isn't EXACTLY listed in their little book.
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Play Six Pack Man. I