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Review of VMWare Competitor

Posted by Hemos on from the transitioning-the-world dept.

nontrivial writes "Linux Medical News has a decent review of Win4Lin, a MS Windows emulator. The article and submissions also touch on other solutions for having to run Windows applications. I use Win4Lin daily, and I must say it is rather spooky how well it works. The review doesn't spell it out, but Win4Lin 2.0 does include sound and serial and parallel support, and so far I've had no problems with the beta. It runs Windows in a SDI type interface, comes with DOS emulation, and can be run in many odd resolutions if you don't like running it in it's own virtual console. The bad news is that it technically requires a licensed copy of Windows (95, 98, etc, not NT), it is intended for business applications (so no DirectX support for example), and only TCP/IP networking is supported within the emulation. But overall it's stable (no more crashes than MS causes, and it doesn't take the whole box down when you see blue), it's fast (native speed), and it's cheap ($35). IMHO it's the best transition software I've used."

16 of 159 comments (clear)

  1. Weird, alternate-universe Slashdot site. by IvyMike · · Score: 4

    I clicked on the link in the story above, and it took a second, so I went to get a glass of water. When I got back, I had warped into some alternate universe slashdot.

    It took me a while to realize THAT WAS the link, and they were just using slashcode. Oh well, it was trippy while it lasted.

    1. Re:Weird, alternate-universe Slashdot site. by Phill+Hugo · · Score: 3

      Its not Slashcode. Its Squishdot, a Zope product.

      It even says it at the bottom.

      www.zope.org

      Phill

  2. Comparison with VMWare by TeVi · · Score: 4

    Comparing Win4Lin with VMWare is not quite fair: Win4Lin is a Windows emulator, while VMWare emulates an i386. Thus, VMWare is a much more powerful tool than Win4Lin, since VMWare can do more that run Windows applications: it runs Windows itself, or any other OS which runs on an i386.

    1. Re:Comparison with VMWare by WhyteRabbyt · · Score: 3

      Genuine technical query : If Win4Lin is only an emulator, why does it need a genuine copy of Windows? Why does it only provide a subset of the actual physical hardware, the way VMWare does? In other words, why isnt it the 'Win4Lin Virtual PC' on Trelo's "how it works diagram" actually a virtual machine.

      Pax,

      White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++

      --
      free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
    2. Re:Comparison with VMWare by barracg8 · · Score: 5
      Okay, I'll step up and give this one a go. Here is a pretty complete summary of what VMs are all about, and a guess at how Win4Lin works differenly (based on their white paper):

      Most modern processors offer 2(+) modes of operation, which break down to Kernel mode and User mode. In kernel mode you have all the instructions that you have in user mode, plus a few more (sensative stuff, e.g. setting up virtual memory tables). An OS expects to start running in kernel mode, as it expects to run directly on the hardware.

      A VM runs the enite OS in user mode. This means that whenever the OS tries to do any real work, it will try to execute a kernel mode instruction, and as it is running in user mode it is not permitted to execute it, and an exeption occurs. The VM should trap this, produce the appropriate behaviour, (eg, if the OS tried to read a byte in from the keyboard buffer it sould be passed a character from the VM applications event queue), and return to the OS code as if the instruction had be executed in hardware as normal. Clear? :-)

      Also, in real machines there is often memory mapped IO, so if I write to a particular memory address I expect graphics/text to appear on the screen. The VM should produce appropriate behaviour for that.

      So what VMware does:

      • It provides software such that programs that are designed to run in x86 kernel mode (ie, an OS) can be run in x86 user mode, and whenever a kernel mode instruction turns up in the code it kindof 'virtually executes' it.
      • It provides low level emulation of memory mapped IO, such that standard Windows VGA graphics drivers will work, as it is actually emulating the graphics hardware.
      Right. Now how Win4Lin works.

      In windows, put simply you have three things:

      1. A system call interface
      2. A set of APIs that run on this
      3. The hardware drivers
      The VMware approach to running window is: to emulate the x86, and the standard hardware devices, e.g. VGA graphics card, then run the stanard windows kernel and device drivers on to of this VM, and to run the Win32 API on top of them as usual.

      With Win4Lin, they provide their own implementation of the Windows system call interface (equivalent in function to the Windows kernel) to run within Linux (I think this is done in the Linux kernel, as it it a replacement interupt handler), and they provide their own drivers for windows to use, eg graphics cards drivers to make calls to X, rather than to try to write directly to a VGA graphics card. They then run the Win32 API code directly onto of their 'kernel', not on the standard windows one. It cuts out a couple of layers, a lot of unnecassary exceptions, and some inefficient device emulation out of the picture, that VMware uses.

      Hope this helps.

      cheers,
      G

  3. Not VMWares Competitor by Wolfbaine · · Score: 3

    It seems like Win4Lin is more a competitor for WINE than VMWare, in that it interacts with windows software at a much higher level. Whilst details are sketchy, the site gives the impression that it doesnt emulate the full hardware.

    For instance, the line:
    The Win4Lin software package consists of a set of server processes, kernel hooks and drivers. These facilities combine to create a tightly integrated environment between Linux and Windows.
    gives the impression that it preprocesses the running software to allow it to run.

    In fact the key difference between Win4Lin and MAME is that it uses a real copy of Windows to provide the libraries and bugs.

  4. Not a real VM by kingjohn · · Score: 4

    The main disadvantage of Win4Lin compared to VMWare seems to be that it is not a real virtual machine, which makes it impossible to run anything else than Windows. Since VMWare is capable or running Linux on Linux, it can be used for kernel development and other dangerous stuff. It can also run other OS's such as Solaris or OS2.

    I also wonder if the use of Win4Lin doesn't make your system vulnerable to Windows viruses (such as macro viruses in Word): since these applications now have access to your Linux file systems, they can easily destroy your data.

  5. Add VNC Server? Cost vs. NTTS CALs? Illegal use? by BitMan · · Score: 3

    VNC Server = "Universal Solution"?

    In addition to remote display via X to other UNIX/X clients, I suppose you could run multiple VNC servers on the Linux with this program running under some of them -- and pump it to other, non-Windows platforms with a VNC viewer but no X support (e.g., Mac, Win3.x, VMS, DOS, etc...). Hmmm, anyone care to try it?

    ~$150/copy of Windows vs. ~$X/CAL for NT Termainl Server / Citrix WinFrame?

    Now when it comes to "cost effectiveness", if you're paying ~$150 per user/session, isn't that a heck of a lot more than CAL (client access licenses) for NT Terminal Server or Citrix WinFrame? Let's say you could license Windows on a "concurrent basis", would it not still be more expensive? Heck, Microsoft might license Windows exactly for virtual machines at a much higher price for that reason.

    Illegitimate use of Windows 9x?

    So at what point does Microsoft limit your use of their Windows 9x products with their EULA? Could they not outlaw you from using it in such a manner, or say your "right-to-use" (RTU) license doesn't cover it??? They could claim their is "no way to enforce proper licensure because you can run multiple copies". Heck, they might even sue Telos (even though their product doesn't have anything to do with such "misuse" -- although that didn't stop the Napster verdict ;-). I'd say they'd do any or all of this if it gave their NT Terminal Server some "competition".

    -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith

    --
    -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
    Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
  6. Win4Lin Virtual Machine - read the WhitePaper by WhyteRabbyt · · Score: 3

    Ive seen a few comments already about Win4Lin being unlike VMWare because its not a Virtual Machine. If people would care to read the whitepaper, then think before they post their little replies they'd find out that

    It IS a virtual machine

    It requires a copy of 95 or 98 to run Windows apps

    It has its own BIOS

    It provides a virtual hardware profile

    In other words, its pretty damn similar to the way VMWare is set up.

    Pax,

    White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++

    --
    free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
  7. Re:I don't see the point alltogether by DrSkwid · · Score: 3

    simple one this

    Internet Explorer

    All the best tools for web site creation are OSS.
    But you need to test it on IE before release.

    Plus Flash tools I expect (not my area but enough people round here live inside Flash)

    anyone with some sense would choose the right product for the right job. I know I would

    Dual/triple booting is a pain and something such as this means I don't have to.

    I've not tried it yet but it means I should be able to happily run plan9 on my desktop and use VNC to attach to the Linux server from where I can run Win4Lin and run IE and friends.

    Heck I don't even have to use my own CPU cycles.

    This product has almost made my day. Just got to persuade someone here to risk $35 on it. (and seeing as I refused Photoshop and use Gimp I just saved the suits $400 so it's payback time :)


    .oO0Oo.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  8. How.. by mindstrm · · Score: 3

    is this a VMWare competitor? Just because Linux users use VMWare to run windows?

    Does Win4Lin let you install other OS's on it? run multiple concurrent VMs?

  9. A good emulator may hurt Linux by tmark · · Score: 3

    Back in the days when I was a happy OS/2 Warp user, I thought it was a great thing that you could run Windows 3.1 applications while running Warp...you could buy Warp with a Windows license or install Windows yourself if you already owned it, and launch Windows as a separate Warp application. The problem was, the fact that you could run Windows applications totally removed any incentive for developers to port those apps to the Warp environment, so they never were ported. Why port an app to OS/2 if you aknow they can already run it as a Windows application ? Note, this was at a time when there were quite a few OS/2 users and it might well have made business sense to port to OS/2 EVEN IF OS/2 COULD NOT RUN WINDOWS APPS. So Warp users were stuck with running Windows applications IN Windows (with its attendant instabilities within the Windows session), as well as paying for a Windows license. Meanwhile, Windows users who wanted to run Windows applications but MIGHT have been interested in running Warp really had no reason to do so. So if you wanted to run an application that ran under Windows, there was never going to be a compelling reason to move to OS/2, since it would never be ported to the OS/2 environment. My point is, if users are able to run Windows apps within Linux, why would we ever expect developers to provide us with Linux native versions of those apps ? The availablity of a good Windows emulator can only retard Linux's viability as a desktop OS for the masses in the long run.

  10. Complaints. by mindstrm · · Score: 3

    It's neat to see it... even if it's closed source... in fact, I couldn't care less if it was or not.. however...

    1) Won't work on SMP systems.
    2) No protocols besides TCP/IP (can deal with this.. but...)
    3) Lots of 'features' are listed for the v2.0, which is not yet available.

    When it comes of age, and sound works, networking has raw access to ethernet for other protocols, and I can use it on my smp system (yes, I know that 9x won't do smp, that's fine).... then I'm game.

  11. Win4Lin Multi User over X by SmilieZ · · Score: 4

    One of the other not so obvious features of
    Win4Lin, is that it runs REALLY well over Remote X. (Ie to Thin Client Terminals) And with Win4Lin 2 having multi-user functionality, you can run a nice little enterprise server for Thin clients, where you deliver say StarOffice for their main Office functionality, peppered with any legacy apps they need using Win4Lin. I have a few sites using something similar to this now. It really changes the "Desktop" option from being "Forget it" to.. "Hey.. we could do that" for most organisations. And once were on the desktop.. it makes it MUCH easier to migrate away thoes old Legacy apps.. and eventually not have win4lin at all!..

    Anthony

  12. I have both... by Spoing · · Score: 5
    ...and both are worth it.

    1. VMWare - Runs almost any x86 OS. VMs can be created on Linux or NT, some rumor of BSD folks using it -- though I'm not certian. Patches the kernel by using a set of loadable modules. Very compatable. Check the news groups: vmware.*.

      Win4Lin - Only Win9x at this time. Only runs on Linux. Fairly compatable. Sound support added to beta releases. Very low memory footprint. Patches kernel directly; no module support. Check the mailing lists: www.trelos.com.

    Neither support advanced video or specialized hardware. In the case of Win4Lin, the sound support is only available in the beta and is not entirely stable or complete. (I could not record with it, for example, but that might be my fault.)

    The kernel patches are available, but aren't the same. Because of that, your kernel may/may not be supported by either VMWare or Win4Lin. If it's not supported, these programs won't run! For bleeding edge kernel releases, use VMWare. It is more likely to have kernel modules available when you need them. There are security issues since these are propriatory extentions, though the kernel modifications are available as source.

    Having said that, I intend to buy two more copies of Win4Lin for my family as gifts. For business use, I would be more cautious and prefer VMWare unless Win4Lin worked with a specific Windows-only application and memory was tight.

    Both have full-featured, time limited, trial versions available for download, so the risk is minimal.

    As always, if there's a Linux software available...that gets the nod over VMware or Win4Lin.

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  13. I don't see the point alltogether by Lion-O · · Score: 3
    ...why anyone would even want to use virtual machines like VMWare and others (like this one). I can understand that people like to run their specific Windows software in the environment they like best. It was no different for me a few years back when I still used OS/2 Connect and later on Warp. My normal (pm) desktop featured many native OS/2 programs while my Windows (3.11) "desktop" featured an allmost exact copy of the environment which Compaq offered you back then (Presario 480CDT iirc (486DX4/90Mhz)) and most programs could run in this environment. But the main reason for me to use this from time to time was the simple fact that some Window programs were better in handeling certain tasks then OS/2's. Handeling Word documents for example, back then a pain for OS/2 but very very easy in WinOS/2 (MS Works actually could do much more then most people realized :-)).

    But today things are completely different on Linux IMO. Where the regular tasks are concerned (hey, everyone needs to write a cv every now and then :)) you can find software for allmost anything. Word and even beyond (Excell, etc, etc) can be handled by most major suits (Staroffice (my personal favorite), WordPerfect, Applix, etc.) and in some cases it'll cost you nothing at all (not counting download times). Back then I could use Works just because Compaq shipped it with my PC. Bottom line; for allmost every task you want to do there is native Linux software available. Most of it is free and others cost you some money but thats the case in allmost every OS (one of the main reasons I had some difficulties letting go of OS/2; all those cool registered software).

    So basicly there isn't really a need for these virtual environments for just running specific Windows based software. Most of 'm could be handeled by the likes of Wine anyway (considering that you really are looking for native Linux software first before moving back to Windows based programs). In several discussions people told me that this wasn't the point to focus on; it was development. When people need to develop software they can depend on virtual environments so that they can use the OS of choice (either Windows or Linux, in most cases it goes both ways) and develop for the other.

    I think that this is one big reason & risk for another load of bl0ated software, think of it... What you are basicly doing is building software for an environment which is completely simulated by another one. When you do program / do certain specific tasks you don't have any clue what so ever what'll happen and if it will happen as it should simply due to the fact that you are completely dependend on the way the 'simulation' does its job. In the terms of your average Windows (visual) development environment this would mean depending on the way the visual dev. env. does its thing (very often producing massive (bl0ated) code) and also how well the simulation does its job. If one of them has bugs (and you can be sure that they do) your software is at risk. In rare cases you could be producing software which runs flawlessly in the simulator but is highly instable in the real environment.

    Therefor I still do not understand why anyone would even want to do its developing in such environments. I can, to a certain extend, see why people want to do this on their private projects but when business is concerned (some of these virtual machines are focused on business environments as well) I think that you are doing an extremely bad thing(tm) when you choose a want-to-be over the real product. Sure; developing Windows software in Linux may sound c00l ("wow, Linux can even do that?") but anyone with some sense would choose the right product for the right job. I know I would.