Internet foils high school censors...maybe

ctucker writes "According to this article at MSNBC, students working on school newspapers are using the internet to publish stories that are too uncomfortable for their school administrators to allow to appear in the paper." I'm skeptical of these claims. There's a big difference between being able to put up a webpage which some students might see sometime and being able to publish something in a paper distributed in school. One is not really a direct substitute for the other. Plus I've seen plenty of students get "in trouble" at school for things done entirely on their own time.

Comments

Here we go again.

[blameless]

From the article:
In the aftermath of the Columbine High School shootings in Colorado, the irreverent and sometimes off-color underground newspapers are haunting reminders of the Web pages created by the student gunmen, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, in which they spewed their anger.

That is why they are a good thing. If school officials had successfully pulled Harris & Klebold's rantings off the Web, it wouldn't have done a thing to prevent what happened later. While those two obviously didn't counsel themselves to sanity, there are plenty of people for whom expression - whether it's art, music, or writing (even Web pages) - has done just that.

Re:Here we go again.

[nezroy]

Unforutnately, it doesn't seem that any schools have learned the lesson so clearly pointed out in the parent comment.

Humans are violent creatures. Anyone who doubts that can leave now and get a job in a burger joint (if you're lucky). What makes us "civilized" is the ability to redirect our violent tendencies into actions and channels that use up the energy without actually having to physically harm anyone. You start plugging these outlets up one by one, and you are going to increase the chance that someone flips out and resorts to a gun -- you sure as hell are not going to stop it.

We've gone back to holding our under 18's responsible for their actions (more and more trials as adults, etc.), but we've forgotten to give back their priviledges. Would this be an issue if an employee at a business had a personal/non-profit website? Would we even bother to argue this point? Not a chance. This violates the First Amendment is so many ways it's scary that it gets any consideration at all; yet here we are, having to speak up just to defend a right that is so innate in this country.

Sadly, this entire issue boils down to a familiar theme, and it has nothing to do with the First Amendment: it's discrimination. We're questioning the RIGHT of this group to be defended by our Constitution. We're uncertain as to whether or not they QUALIFY as people. No wonder so many children are growing up fucked; try treating them like a HUMAN BEING. You might be surprised.

Re:Here we go again.

[Lord Kano]

Humans are violent creatures. Anyone who doubts that can leave now and get a job in a burger joint (if you're lucky).

Thanks you for getting it. I've been telling people this for years. Everything about us indicates that a part of what we're here for is to inflict and sustain damage from violent acts. Agression is a part of what we are. Many of us work out that agression in positive ways such as going running or getting a good work out others get that release through creative expression, like you pointed out, and those who can't find a positive way to get rid of that agression and anger do it through violence.

Sadly, this entire issue boils down to a familiar theme, and it has nothing to do with the First Amendment: it's discrimination.

Reminds me of a scolding that I got from my asshole step father when I was a kid. He said "You think that 'freedom of speech' means that you get to say whatever you want, whenever you want to." as if that were NOT the correct interpretation of the concept.

The educational system in this country isn't just in place to educate children, it's to indoctrinate them. It's to get them used to the idea that arbitrary authority is always right, and even if the rules don't make sense, they're still the rules. Here in Pittsburgh for example, a school district got a new Principal and an existing rule was re-interpretted and forbade the wearing of white tee shirts. Somewhere near 50 kids were suspended for wearing such shirts. Some dimwits around here were calling local talk shows complaining about how kids have no respect for authority anymore. Stupid rules shouldn't be there, and people who are unable to think for themselves are at the mercy of those whom they allow to think for them.

LK

yawn

[griffjon]

BFD. woohoo. so it's cheaper than going to the copy-shop and making 100 one-side copies of the underground paper. it's not particularly revolutionary as a concept.

one idea, tho--use the cuecat to provide links from the newspaper to the website! hide them in images and whatnot. it'll be cool.

(side-note: you can daisy chain cuecats for the ultimate rave experience (...within 3' of your keyboard port, at least!)

Everyone's on the web now

[drinkypoo]

I'm skeptical of these claims. There's a big difference between being able to put up a webpage which some students might see sometime and being able to publish something in a paper distributed in school. One is not really a direct substitute for the other.

I was at a birthday party for a friend of mine, well into the days when Netscape was called Netscape Navigator (still years ago) who actualy said "The Web is the Next Big Underground Thing." We all had a good laugh, and explained to her that you don't get much more above-ground than the internet.

You want an example? My company does the N'Sync website. It's the most popular music site on the internet, period. What do you suppose the average age of our viewers is? I'm guessing it's mostly kids/teens.

So, given that just about every kid has a computer and is on the internet, putting up that kind of information on a website is a reasonable thing to do. I'd personally get tee shirts printed up with the URL and wear them around campus, write the URL on the chalk/whiteboard when I walked into class and the teach was absent, et cetera.

I visit URLs whose content I don't already know all the time. If I see a URL alone on a bumpersticker or something and I remember it, I tend to visit it. Most of the time I just close the window I'm using for it not long after it shows up (with about a 50/50 chance of further porn or ad popups - I want to kill the person at netscape who thought up that onClose() nonsense) and move on with my life, but I do look at them, and I'm guessing the students would, too.

Re:Everyone's on the web now

[nezroy]

Not to mention the fact that, if anyone is going to find a way onto the web, it'll be someone under 18 first. Public Internet access, dedicated Internet appliances, and all other forms of "alternate" Internet access are going to fall into the hands of teenagers LONG before it becomes popular with adults. Grown-ups tend to ignore all the changes going on around them, but kids are in-tune. If there's a way onto the web in a community, however arcane or hidden, it'll be the kids who find it first.

Great... for priviledged teens.

[isaac]

I fully support this end-run around PR-obsessed and/or corrupt school administrators, but let's not forget that online papers will reach only a limited audience, except in the most affluent of schools. Which is a shame, really, since such schools aren't usually where investigative journalism is most necessary.

That would be in poor urban or rural schools where some very real unsafe conditions exist, conditions only students are likely to encounter, and that aren't likely to be brought to the general public's attention without someone crying foul, and getting noticed. And in such places, that's not going to happen online, if only 3% of the student body (and 2% of the public) has internet access at home.

-Isaac

Re:Great... for priviledged teens.

[IHateEverybody]

I fully support this end-run around PR-obsessed and/or corrupt school administrators, but let's not forget that online papers will reach only a limited audience, except in the most affluent of schools. Which is a shame, really, since such schools aren't usually where investigative journalism is most necessary.

On the other hand, keep in mind that computer prices are lower these days than they were in the past. Although a lot of the really cheap PC and free PC companies went belly up, it's still pretty easy to find PCs for $1000 or less. Used PCs will cost even less and free web pages through Geocities, Xoom, and the like are easy to come by. There are also "free" Internet Service Providers like Netzero and Juno.

So while poorer schools will always lag behind more affluent ones, things are getting better for them in terms of Internet access.

Good for them!

[Cyclopatra]

Admittedly, this is nothing new, it's just been moved into a new medium, but I have to cheer (well, quietly, at least while I'm at work) whenever student papers stand up in some way to administrative censorship.

My highschool paper had the good fortune to be headed up by an advisor who also was a professional journalist, so whenever the question of "prior review" came up, he told administration where they could stick it. Not many school papers have the benefit of an advisor who realizes that his students have first amendment rights, though - in fact, right after I graduated, he went on sabbatical and was replaced by a nice, compliant, tenured teacher who knew which side her bread was buttered on - she practically fell over herself agreeing that of course the principal should be able to read the paper before it came out, just to make sure there wasn't anything "inappropriate" in there...

I'd love to see the schools try to force removal of an online "underground" paper - the ACLU would be all over it in a second.

Re:Shame on you.

[nezroy]

It's only karma whoring when you actually put an tag in there to make it convenient for people to click on the link.

Please don't make it them and us

[Kris_J]

"...the hands of teenagers LONG before it becomes popular with adults. Grown-ups tend to ignore..."

The line you're drawing here is arbitrary. Stop it.

The problem isn't "those darn kids" v's "Grown-ups", the problem is with people in a position of power making up arbitrary rules simply to advantage them or disadvantage those below. Arbitrary rules are usually poorly defined and easy to work around. Enforcing them becomes a game of whack-the-mole. The problem comes when those in power at a place with a high percentage of unexperienced people go off on a power trip, or overreact to a natural or predictable decision.

• Students: We want to say this
• Teachers: We will stop you
• S: We will say it somewhere else
• T: We will have you arrested and your stuff confiscated

Woah, hold on there. Who's displaying their ignorance now? Children are just proto-adults -- treat them as equals on each issue until they prove themselves to be something else.

Re:Please don't make it them and us

[nezroy]

Actually, read my own comments and you'll see I'm not one of those who like to draw a line by age. However, it does get tedious to use words that don't exist in the language; and anyhow, "teenager" is a perfectly accurate description of age; negative or positive connotations attributed to it are not my fault. And realistically, the younger you are, the more likely you are to be aware of newer technology as you are being exposed to it with less preconceived prejudice. And "grown-ups" can be anyone, young or old, who has no clue about what's going on in the world :)

I've been a victim

[OO7david]

In my school newspaper I have a column (I know everyone there and they know I can write). In there I was originally allowed to rant about whatever I wanted, as long as I kept it factual and pertanent to school.

After the colombine incident I wrote an article about video game violence (among other topic), but the pricipal nixed it because it was "questionable". I took it in stride because I knew it was. Then I wrote about prayer at football games, another about my views on high school sponsored sports. Both were not allowed to be printed because the maligned the school (in which I didn't choose one school, but schools in general). I then distributed both editorials and another about censorship to every student, but was given 2 days of ISSC for "distributing harmful information". Then when the next edition of the paper came out, instead of my column there was an apology from the principal. Enraged by that I posted all the editorials to a Geocities page (now gone), and had the principal announce it over the PA. I then got two more days for "circumventing the schools decency code".

Sure, I was beat down, and have a few black marks on my school record, but I stuck to my principals. As long as the students keep doing that, there is no way to stop us (short of removing out fingers so we cannot type).

Re:I've been a victim

[Cyclopatra]

It is illegal for the city of Lewisville to order my church to not hold services just because we spell church with a lowercase 'c.' However, its not illegal, and is in fact expressly allowed, for my minister to run for (and possibly be elected to) a city council position.

That's not what 'separation of church and state' means. It doesn't mean that people who go to, work at or lead a church can't run for office, or be a part of the government - it means that the government can't endorse or discourage any church as the state religion. In other words (and better than mine), 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...'

So your minister could run for office, but he/she couldn't use that office to make everyone in Lewisville go to your church, or any church.

Re:What can schools do in response?

[B. Samedi]

I say put it up and find out what happens. Make sure the articles are correct, that you don't lie and they really can't touch you as long as you don't use their material or their computers to do it. Try and be even handed. Tell both sides of the story. Remember that a good reporter is unbiased (or is supposed to be).

Discuss it with your parents, let them know what you're doing and the reasons you feel it should be done. Make them understand so they will be able to back you if and when it all hits the fan. If they are the kind of parents that would be completely against this and you feel it still needs to be done then go right ahead and do it anyway. But be sure you feel strongly enough to go it all by your lonesome.

Keep backups of all your data in a safe place so that if the site gets taken down for whatever reason you can start anew somewhere else. If you want to go the route of printed material then do so. I suggest you find a way to distribute where you aren't on school grounds when you're handing it out just to avoid a confrontation on that issue. And just because they're a private organization doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. Chances are if they have any kind of a decent reputation then they have a accreditation. Find out who it's with and make complaints (and get others to do so also) if they pull the jack booted thug routine. Have the number for the ACLU on speed dial. Find out how to contact the local newspaper so that you can get a story of it out if you get slapped around (figuratively).

And above all, without question or exception don't do it anonymously! If you feel strongly enough about it to publish then you should be willing to put your name on the material.

Remember that if you believe in what you're and you believe that it's right then don't back down. Good luck.

I had to deal with this kind of thing

[vsync64]

I got suspended from my high school for 5 days due to posters I put up in the aftermath of Columbine (I was in the Jefferson County school district at the time).

After that, I skipped my senior year, got my GED, and now have a great job at a California startup. Now I just shake my head sadly as I hear about each "new study" or whatever.

According to a lawery I talked to on this

[bluGill]

In high school I was an editor (Layout, not grammer, nor reporter). I went to a seminar on the law and school newspaper (accually I wanted a different one, but that one was cancled so I took what I could) According to him, a private school can censor their school sponsered newspaper. A public school cannot, and this lawyer would love to take your case if you go to a public school and the school or principal trys to censor you or your paper in any way. (There are probably limits, but they would be language not content).

Remember americans take the first ammendment more seriously then any other. This works to your advantage, typically you will win any case before you enter a court room. School lawyers know this and will typically settle. The school however is hoping you don't make a legal stink about it, but you should. Most school newspapers are members of a journlism convention (I forget the name) who would love to put you in contact with the right people to help.

Re:According to a lawery I talked to on this

[RomulusNR]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This seminar you speak of gets zero credit from me if they did not mention Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier: http://www.splc.org/resources/high.school/hazelwoo d.html
and no, no lawyer would love to take your case unless he had lived his life in a sheltered suburban utopia before his years at Harvard Law, and had just got out.

College newspapers get more freedom, at least in past decisions, under the observation that free expression and though is essential to higher education. Additionally, it's been made mostly clear that high schools do not have control over student publications that are not funded by school money or other resources, i.e. underground or independent student publications. Such is the presumed case with these web sites.


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civil liberties

[austad]

As far as I'm concerned, these students have every right to do this and the school can't do a damn thing about it. The Civil Liberties union here in MN agrees with me.

Robert Fitzpatrick, a former student of Fergus Falls HS, made and distributed an "Onion" type paper at school. He was given detention for it. He served his detention, and then made several more issues of this paper. The subsequent issues were not distributed on school property but were left at a local Perkins restaraunt for people to pick up. He was given detention every time for excercising his freedom of speech off of school property. He didn't serve the detention because it was BS. The school wouldn't let him graduate. The Civil liberties union got involved and the school finally gave in.

Re:It's a start....

[Ikari Gendou]

The principal has that power. Thanks to the Hazelwood ruling about 20 some odd years ago, the US Government has given the green light for school administrators to censor whatever they feel is not correctly reflecting the(ir) views of the school or the students.

California, and I believe a few other states have overturned this ruling and passed a law giving the 1st Amendment back to the students.

Shortchanging the web?

[RomulusNR]

Michael, as a presumed geek, you give the Web a remarkably short stick here.

There's a big difference between being able to put up a webpage which some students might see sometime and being able to publish something in a paper distributed in school.

How so? In fact, high school students today are beginning to outpace college students in their embracement of the Internet.

Think of it this way. You're a modern high school student. I don't care if you're a geek or a trendie. You're given a choice between: the four-page school paper that your boring teachers tell you to read, or the colorful web page that has all the stories they don't want you to read.

It doesn't take long, assuming quite reasonably that the web site is always in the same location, for students to know where to look to find the bits that wouldn't get put in the boring school paper (which is always plastered with articles saying how cool the bastard principal is).

In my high school, a story on teen pregnancy was kept out of the school paper. I went to a private school, which made things worse. Well, it didn't take more than a few dollars worth of nickels to have the objectionable story typed up and copied (luckily this was a small school). I dare say more people had held copies of that story in their hands than the corresponding issue of the school paper. And the fact that it hadn't been put in the school paper for unclear reasons made all the more reason for people to read it.

Plus I've seen plenty of students get "in trouble" at school for things done entirely on their own time.

Yes, well... as with geeks and computer companies, if no one bothers to legally challenge the abuses made against high school students, they are what the abusers want them to be. The whole idle victimization cry is getting a bit stale in both realms. If you assume something is legal (or illegal) simply because a high school principal says it is, then you deserve to live in a place like China. Shi* or get off the pot.

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Re:Solution and question

[CrayDrygu]

Second, what is ISSC?

Probably the same thing as what's called simply "ISS" in the school I work at. Couldn't guess at what the C is for, but our ISS stands for In-School Suspension.

The way it works here is this: You arrive at school, and go to the ISS room. You stay in this room until the end of school, 6.5 hours later. Your classwork is delivered to you, and you are expected to complete it. Your lunch is delivered to you. You're only allowed to leave to use the bathroom (or, obviously, for a medical emergency), in which case you are accompanied by a faculty member.

Basically, it's a way of changing suspension from "Hey, cool, I get to sleep in and watch TV" into something that you really, really don't want.

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