Debian 2.2 Reviewed, Interview on Embedded Debian

Patrick Mullen sent us linkage to a nice review review on the latest Debian release. Frank Smith wrote in to say that Geek news has an interview with him (mega biases earn bonus points) about the Embedded Debian Project which is actually looking pretty good (if you're into that whole embedded thing, which might not be everyone :)

Comments

Menu

[spankenstein]

Just so everyone knows, Debian does go through great details on making it simple to use and maintain. tasksel which lets you selsct "task" packages (e.g. task-laptop, task-helix-gnome) and gets the appropriate debs.

But my favorite is menu. Nearly every window manager you install will have identical menus that are generated by the programs in the menu package. Most packages provide a menu file that gets added into these menus. The also integrate it into GNOME and KDE.

It's these small details that everyone overlooks that make Debian exceptionaly to me.

Please stop linking DukeofURL reviews, finally.

[Hanno]

Yet another shallow review.

DukeofURL should start doing actual reviews, not just another "look, I can copy a feature list" article.

So far, every DukeofURL review linked to from Slashdot has been a bore.

This isn't a flame, but an opinion.

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My take

[Straker Skunk]

Well, I switched to Debian (potato) just recently, and I couldn't be happier. Having used RH for as long as I can remember, I was very impressed by Debian's attention to detail. The security setup, for example-- /dev/fd0 is chown'ed to root.floppy with mode 660, so if I want floppy access, I just have to add myself to group "floppy." Similar for "adm" (if I want to read logs), "disk" (if I want raw access to /dev/hd?), "dialout" (if I want to use the serial ports or ISDN devices).

The review dumps on the install, but that was no big deal. If you've been using Linux for more than a year, and bash doesn't scare you, neither will dbootstrap. (Btw, I have to agree that dbootstrap looks like FreeBSD's installer-- almost exactly. They do say Debian is the most BSD-like of the distros...)

Oh, yeah, and apt-get/dpkg are sweet. They are very intelligent, almost dauntingly so. Debian's package system keeps a lot of state about packages going in and out. Just yesterday, I wanted to upgrade Esound from the normal "esound" version to "esound-alsa," and the process was something like this:

1. dpkg -i esound-alsa.deb
   (can't do; conflicts with esound)
   
2. dpkg -r esound
   (can't do; several packages depend on esound)
   
3. dpkg -i esound-alsa.deb
   (hmmm, esound is being considered for removal, and esound-alsa also satisfies the dependency for those packages, so install it)
   

There was probably a better way to do that, but that it could do that sure threw me for a loop. One thing I don't like about dpkg is that it doesn't index files; if you're used to doing rpm -qf <file> a lot, then you'll have to switch to dpkg -S <file> and waiting for the package manager to search for which package the file belongs to, usually taking a few seconds (whereas rpm does it instantly).

One other pet peeve was that no binary Pine/Pico .deb is available (where apt-get can get at it), but that's because of license restrictions (Pine disallows distributing modified binaries). This was annoying, but it made me think about the licensing. I was going to try following the steps to build a Pine .deb, but instead, I think I'm going to give Mutt a try. It'll probably be better in the long run. (Oh, and nano is better than pico anyway ;-)

If you're an idealistic-in-thought/pragmatic-in-practice guy like me, Debian's non-free section is nice, in that it reminds you what software doesn't quite meet the ideals that spawned the whole thing. Nothing obtrusive, just a tiny reminder...

Anyway, I'm very happy with my new Debian system. The extensive testing really shows, and makes the system feel much more solid than your typical RH setup. If Linux is just Linux to you, then it's no big deal, but if you want to build your system into perfection, Debian is probably the best starting point. I'm well on my way ;-)

Really more than just another Linux distribution

[Netsnipe]

One aspect that most reviewers when they approach Debian GNU/Linux is that they tend to forget to cover is that Debian is really more then a Linux distribution and a philosophy. Throughout my few years of Linux experience, one aspect of Debian that I have noticed really shining through is the community aspect of Debian. More reviewers need to emphasise that Debian has a large helpful community.

This community isn't just tight-knit between the developers who work on the project, but it's also a tight-knit community that exists between users and developers (remember back to our collective sorrow when Joel died). Go onto any major IRC server and see how many people populate channels named #mandrake or #redhat and you'll notice that their numbers pale in comparison with #debian 's population.

The non-profit nature of Debian tends to attract the most humanitarian (and perhaps more socialistic) of Linux users, and this no more apparent then in #debian on irc.debian.org (part of the irc.openprojects.net network). This channel is always filled with over 50 friendly people at any given time willing to help you with any problems no matter how large, and most of the regulars there will keep an eye out on people who can help you later if they can't immediately.

To those consider Debian, I'd like to point out that despite the apparent difficulties involved with installing, configuring, and using Debian GNU/Linux, please remember that there will always be a very co-operative IRC channel and comprehensive mailing list willing and ready to help you through to appreciate Debian. If you're wondering if it's really difficult to keep Debian on the cutting edge, it's not. Just pop into the official #debian channel on irc.debian.org and type in:

/msg apt helix or /msg apt xf4 and so on...

And xk's bot, named apt, will tell you the single line you need to add to /etc/sources.list for apt-get to install and configure new software for you. Hang around and you'll see you a few Debian developers and even CowboyNeal who frequents it too. So give Debian a go and the Debian community will help you never look back.

MashPotato - Mobile Array of Support Helpers for Potato

My .deb vs .rpm experiences

[Slayne]

There have been quite a few discussions about rpm versus deb/apt in the past couple days, and I'd like to share some of my personal experiences with both of these packaging systems.

I use debian at home, and I absolutely love it. I can understand how installation may be a bit tricky. I always install a really basic system and then configure apt to get the rest of the packages I want from the net.

I've found both my systems at home incredibly easy to maintain. Installing or upgrading packages is simple thanks to apt-get. I've NEVER had packages fail to install that I've downloaded from one of the debian sites (or even helixcode's gnome archive). apt automatically handles dependencies and installs any other packages you need.

At work, I have redhat installed. Many people say they prefer redhat because rpms are more widely available and are easier to install. I see this as both a blessing and a curse. I find myself downloading rpms from all over the internet because I can't find the "official" version. Sometimes they install, most of the time they fail to install because of conflicting libraries or conflicting naming conventions. When they do install, I've had quite a few packages segfault for what appears to be no good reason.

If you want to have a stable, maintainable system, I'd suggest trying out debian. If you want to try out all the latest stuff, I'd also suggest debian - try out the unstable branch, it's got a ton more stuff in it! And if you run across software that's not in the debian archives, you can give alien a try, or you can always build from source.

-Chris

Getting feet wet with embedded systems

[GrnyS]

Emdebian is attractive for much the same reasons that Debian attracted me five years ago. Namely, anyone can get involved. Besides, these guys are are committed to the philosophy of free software development, and that is important to me. They are moving along now, and are daily cranking changes through CVS that I have been tracking closely and trying out myself. I really hope the community gets behind them and helps them get where they want to go.

I have started playing with CML2+OS and have used it to build a small rootfs for my 386sx/20 8M DECpc mouldering in the corner. There have been a few snags, but thanks to some help from these guys on channel #emdebian on irc.debian.org, I was able to work thru them and (mostly) boot the thing for the first time last night. Once I'm done, I will have breathed new life into this old iron, which will serve as a utility on my growing home network. It's a great learning experience. In the end, I hope I will have contributed something of value back to the Emdebian project.

Thanks for Emdebian, and good luck with it!

Re:I don't get it: dselect selects more than I sel

[Xibby]

Simple enough. task-packages are just empty packages. No content at all. All a task package is is a debian package that depends on a bunch of related packages, and suggest others.

That way, you can type apt-get install task-gnome task-samba task-c-dev etc, and apt will download and install that selection of packages.

When using dselect with task-packages, I've found it best to select the task packages (+) to bring up the depends selection, then set the task package to purge (_), but keep the packages that the task package depended on. You may want to keep the task package installed so if something is added to that task, you're next apt-get upgrade will grab that package as well. On the otherhand, if you don't want something that's in a task-package, dselect will complain because the task-package depends on that package.

It's not a big deal with stable, since the only task packages that will be updated are those from helix and other non-offical packages.