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IIT To Review Carnivore
sconeu writes: "Fox News is reporting that the Illinois Institute of Technology will review Carnivore. Fox further reports that 'The Justice Department said in a written statement that it received 11 proposals from various organizations, including the University of California--Davis, and the National Software Testing Laboratory.'" Representatives from a law school (
Chicago-Kent College of Law, not Kent State as previously stated; thanks to corprew for the correction -- tl) will be looking at it as well, and it's slated to start in December.
The most telling part of the article is this quote from Kerry Rowe, the senior vp at IITRI who will be overseeing the project, when asked about the clause in the Justice Department's Request For Proposals requiring that the feds be able to edit the report before publication-
Of course they don't expect any major edits. No one is going to willingly sign up to be a meaningless rubberstamp for bad law enforcement. But the edits will come anyway--especially if they discover that the system is exploitable.
They've (meaning the staff of IITRI) convinced themseleves that Justice is serious when they say a "fair and open" review is what is wanted. They've justified and rationalized to themselves that this isn't a political issue--that it's a technical one. It's an understandable mistake to make, we all want to believe that everyone else is acting in good faith.
But I think they'll probably regret this later, when they discover that federal agents are political beasts and they aren't always acting in good faith.
daniel
All I needed to know in life I learned from
while i realize this is a little late to comment on, and a lot of people may not read it, i feel that it is important to point out that IIT (the university of science, engineering, and architecture) and iitri (the mostly government research facility) are really not related by anything more that their name. the iitri facilities are no longer even considered part of the iit campus, since four years ago when the industrial design department moved out of the main iitri building to a new location downtown.
once upon a time, iitri was a big source of money for the school. There used to be a whole load of iit researchers and staff turning out patents (real patents for real physical inventions) left and right. Supposedly back at it's height, there was an entire office of secretaries and bookeeppers to keep track of the patent royalties from just one guy (marvin camras, the inventor of magnetic recording)
now the building is pretty much off limits to students. armed guards patrol most of the floors. it's almost entirely government funded. all of the campus researchers do their research elsewhere. the cs and ece (electrical and computer engineering) people have all their own equipment. the mechanical and aerospace department, as somebody previously mentioned, have their own very advanced facilities, and all of our big name physics professors do their research out at fermi lab.
the law school may be doing a legal review of carnivore (also loosely related. it's on a separate campus downtown) but any involvement by the iit research institute is purely governmental.
as you can probably tell by my email address, i am an iit student. but what im stating here is not really an opinion, so it's not really biased. and while i will readily say my school has some problems (as probably any institution of higher learning does) this issue is really not even related to my school.
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
First of all, I attend IIT, so I can clear some stuff up about what is going on.
IITRI is affiliated and also owned by the school. Anyone who has ever been to Comiskey Park in Chicago has seen a big tall ominous building at 35th and state. That's the main IITRI thing. Last year when the government was testing the foam for bioweapons at airports, they tested it on live anthrax there. It should be noted that with 8 blocks to a mile in Chicago, that puts IIT around 4 miles from downtown chicago. One of IITRI's biggest clients is the US government. There are dozens of IITRI labs around the country.
I've had extensive dealings with the Chicago-Kent College of Law. Some of their faculty are very good about legal issues. Other assume because they wrote a paper about cyberspace a couple of years ago they know everthing about it. Then again, it might just be a personal issue with me and the dean.
This is unusal for our institution. The most prominent IIT research that I know of relating to computers is Garbage Collection and is being done by Morris Chang. There is also some AI research being done. But not a whole lot else.
The law school (chicago-kent) is pretty distant from the main campus, and they don't do much with actual computer stuff there. So it's going to be a legalistic investigation, which is probably what this means.
To be honest, I'm kinda excited about this, but I wouldn't trust my own school to do it.
My Slashdot account is old enough to drink...
Fox says "Perdue". They mean "Purdue".
Fox says "University of San Diego".
They mean University of California, San Diego".
Fox says "Dartmouth University".
Dartmouth is still a college.
Fox needs to improve their vetting.
I went to IIT for a year before I escaped. It's an odd little school...kind of like a campus attached to a giant defense research project. Lessee...fun facts/rumors/etc (you pick 'em!) about IIT: :D
- The IITRI research building on the main campus (well, the main one, the one that's above ground) is the also the tallest building on campus. And...it's entirely bulletproof. Why is this, you ask? Because the entire campus (being located a few miles directly south of The Loop) is smack dab in the middle of some of the most interesting slums/ghettos in the midwest - and the denizens of the housing project towers (yes, towers - they're big-ass buildings) kept taking shots at the researchers through the windows. *giggle*
- There is at least one entire building underground. You normally can't see this (the roof is just ground with grass on it) but in the winter, the snow likes to melt on top of it - and only there.
- The entire campus is connected by fun underground tunnels, from the dorms to the tower. Most of the fun ones have been closed off...and for some reason, it's really hard to get a blueprint of 'em (I tried).
- An unusually large portion of the student body consists of Army, Navy, Chair Force and Marine ROTC scholarship holders (how I got there) - when I was there, there were about 500 ROTC students, which was about 35% of the student body population
- The undergrad physics department is both unusually small and has an unusually large amount of toys for such a small department. Then again, being as closely associated with the collider up there as they are, not too surprising.
- The southern limb of the L goes literally DOWN THE MIDDLE of the campus. About 800 feet from the dorms. If you've ever seen the L (or el, if you wish), or more specifically, *heard* the L, you'd laugh your ass off just as I did the first time "experiencing" a passthrough while outdoors. Thank god my room was on the other side of the dorm complex.
- IIT has one of the most advanced high-speed wind tunnels on the face of the planet.
- Cafe Edelstein. If you've taken undergrad physics, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you're still going to class after the first 3 classes, that is. Hmm, wonder if he's still there/alive.
- It's got some of the weirdest buildings you'll ever see. That's because it used to be (well, still is in some circles) a really high-end architectural school, and Mies Van der Roah (sp?) designed most of the (older) buildings on campus. Think "giant boxes made of slate and glass" and you're really close.
- 'Cuz of the L, you're a short walk away from downtown - which is really cool, because Chicago is a great city (in the summer) to hang out in downtown.
- Chicago was the first time I'd seen bridges with potholes on 'em. Like....damn.
- Nearly half the main campus (engineering and suchlike, for the most part) is foreign nationals - mostly Chinese, Indian and Pakistani. You should see some of the fights between the Indians and Pakistani folk...damn...
- Not a single solitary math professor speaks intelligible English. Oh, wait, that's everywhere, nevermind...
So, all things considered...I find this highly amusing. IITRI "examining" this thing is like asking the whore if she likes her pimp while the pimp is standing there listening.
Given enough hydrogen, just about anything is possible.
after carnivore filters the "suspect's data"
it says
"All non-relevant data is purged. Opponents of the system fear Carnivore does not discard private or irrelevant information, leading to potential abuses."
That is such bullshit.
Opponents of Carnivore (A) feel the ENTIRE SYSTEM is unconstitutional and (B) oppose the entirely SECRET NATURE of the system.
The FBI's attempt to isolate the point of controversy to a single point in the system is an obvious attempt to reframe the argument.
People are opposed to the entire thing, not just a part of it. People think abuse can happen at any point in carnivore's operation, not only after filtering is done. (The filtering criteria can be corrupt for example.)
This is so lame.
W
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This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
it's slated to start in December.
... which will give them plenty of time to remove the parts they don't want "reviewed"
After all, how do we know that the version sent in for "review" is going to be the same software that they put on the machines? We don't.
Oh, he was trolling. But you forgot that Roberge left this semester, probably for good (his company is about to enter the market). I had him last year, and I always wondered why he skipped it. He was good and I hear the woman who replaced him isn't to wonderful.
One of the major reasons why IIT isn't known is because a few years back money was tight, and professors left (forced or not), somewhat due to failing to give tenure. Motorola and Hyat stepped in and its getting back in shape, but I had a professor another university warn me about that. Had great things to say otherwise.
The CS cur. is a bit light, especially first year. But almost every other college is the same, as if you look at CMU's its quite close. The major difference is that CS105/106 is first semester (200). I actually liked ours a little better, as CMU's seemed to be to strict (ie, humanities/philosophies were pre-picked). Course, thts what I remember, and easily could be a bit wrong.
A friend at UCSC seems to have had a worse time then here. The classes sounded as if they taught less and he failed two (quarter, tho, so throuws me off a bit). IIT is nothing like the crap people have been saying on here, as you'd agree. The EE/CPE isn't light, and every night these last two weeks I've been working for 6+ hours studying. The works hard, taught well, and done well.
This guy got it right and most people talking on here just give wild speculations. Slashdot gets reaction, not logical thought.
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"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
Not to knock these institutions, but are these quailty institutions that we can trust to present a detailed and thorough overview of this software? I don't know anything about Illinois Tech. Also, I live right by Kent State (Main) and I didn't even know that HAD a law department. Like I said, not to badmouth these institutions but I'd like more information on their credentials and why they were chosen to review the software.
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
As the former Mgr. of Web Resources of the CLC (Center for Law and Computers) there, I'm dismayed about this. I don't know much about IITRI, but I do know that CK has only 2 (maybe 3) Law Profs. who are semi computer literate. The rest, well at best they know little to none. At worst they think that the latest article they read makes them an Uber Computer Genius.
I can think of a few names, who if involved with this, are totally in it for name recognition and for future job opportunities.
I'll say it know.. no good will come out of this.
1. It's not IIT that's reviewing it, it's the Illinois Institute of Technology Research Institute (IITRI). What? It's "affiliated" with IIT? OK, that's all right then.
2. It's not Kent State (which is in Ohio), but Chicago-Kent College of Law, which is part of IIT in Chicago.
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314-15-9265
How much credibility is this review really going to have? Especially after being turned down by multiple universities, such as MIT, UCSD and UM. The only solution is a justice department independent review, as these universities have suggested. Now by choosing such a no name institution (no offense to IIT), but it is only going to get charged with conspiracy no matter how they respond to the review. I'm glad I'm not in their spot.
-- Moondog
Yahoo has an article that might make it a little clearer for some people. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000926/wr/tech_c arnivore_dc_1.html
"Jeffrey Schiller, a security expert and network manager at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the fine print in the DOJ's request for review would place numerous unacceptable restraints on the process, including giving the department the right to read, edit and even junk the report before the public saw it.
In other words, any negative feedback from scientists could be cut out -- while the DOJ would still be able to claim that those scientists, and the universities associated with them, reviewed the software."
So this isn't going to be any kind of review at all. With the knowledge of the DOJ's control over the "review" I don't see how any intelligent soul could believe the final report. If that aint sad enough the university has to pay to review it!
Anyone got a mole inside IIT? I'd love to see the source leaked!
The FBI claims that they need to keep the source closed to prevent criminals from figuring out how to evade Carnivore. But it seems to me that any criminal who is technically skilled enough to do this from reading the actual source code could also figure it out just from the descriptions the FBI has freely given to the press. I mean, either there vast subtleties I'm missing about checking the TO and FROM fields of email messages, or the FBI has something they want to hide.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose that you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Justice Department spokeswoman Chris Watney denied that the chosen review board's final report would be altered before release.
Then why does their agreement with the review boards allow them to alter the final report?
The only part that may go unreleased, she said, is the software's source code, which would be the proprietary information of the company that developed it, and which could also help criminals evade Carnivore.
I want to evade Carnivore. Does that make me a criminal?
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He lives in a world where those who do not run the client software of the omnipresent meme are unacceptable.
How about a real democracy at home?
Since this Carnivore thing is going to have a long term effect on all Americans, and all other countries' population as well, isn't it fair to submit the question to the whole population for a referendum?
And let's see whether we want it or not. I don't like the idea that some FBI guys decide for me.
I GRADUATED from IIT. Amazingly few people do this and leave (a large number of those who do graduate seem to stay for some reason, or disappear into the military)
AFAIK, and in my opinion, it is a pretty top-rate institution, with a nearly top rate reputation. I think that degree is, and should be, as good as any other degree qualification for employment. This said I don't recommend going there unless you like pain and suffering, because in my experience they do a bad job of making a good quality of life university experience. I should stipulate that this was at least an order of magnitude less true when I left (May) as it was when I started there. So maybe it's better now... If they keep going at that rate the place would truly rock in another 6 or so years, but I think it gets harder to make that size of gain.
It is apparently at least as famous or moreso in the rest of the world, and does have a large foreign student population.
ROTC: the ROTC #s there have been in decline since 95. Army especially so. The AROTC students there tend to win a disproportionate number of awards in the Fire Battalion (IIT's AROTC program is a satellite of UIC's)
There are professors in every department who speak English natively. In the Math and CS classes I took, that only served to demonstrate that they were either incompetent or just terribly confusing and disorganized people (which I could actually tell WASN'T true of some of the people I couldn't undertand) I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering, and that department actually had many professors who spoke English quite understandably AND knew what they were talking about. Still a couple of bastards, of course, but that's life.
I should point out that some of the militarization of IIT's campus in general is due to the extremely bad neighborhoods on 3 sides (the fourth is an expressway. Across the expressway is a neighborhood that isn't too bad, as long as you are white) IIT works very hard for safety there, and does a generally good job (although changing away from the IIT Police was a bad, bad move, imho.)
IITRI is the big tower at the south (most dangerous) side of campus. It is across from some Public Housing towers. Recently there was a multiday shootout between the public housing people (across from IITRI) and the police admin building (across the other street from the PH) involving at least one tripod mounted automatic weapon in the PH. At least one security guard in the IITRI lobby has been shot from the PH tower, and I've heard rumors that there was once a grenade used. (They've improved the glass since the sniper, I'm told)
This isn't the primary security reason. IITRI does some extremely sensitive work. I strongly doubt you'll see leaked source code. A friend of mine who had classes in IITRI (doesn't happen anymore, only in the Design school) reported getting off on the wrong floor and found himself facing M16 bearing military guards.
I've also heard that on the old USSR list of what to nuke, IITRI was the 3rd ranking civilian institution in terms of importance (this obviously excludes any military institution, including any of our nukes, Crystal Mountain, and any place the pres or a successor might be, since he's the military commander-in-chief) to destroy, because of the large body of military research done there.
IITRI is basically like having Lockheed review it, except they seem to by trying to use the fact that IIT is an educational institution to add credibility. I don't think the source will get out. I do think it'll probably be competently reviewed. I don't think we'll ever HEAR about any problems they find.
I'll be happy to communicate via email with anyone interested in IIT.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
Here is an interesting Flash by CNN demonstrating how Carnivore works... All non-suspect and non-relevant data is purged. Well, great, I feel so much better.
Oops, I forgot to give credit for the interactive carnivore. At the bottom of the Flash it says, "Source: FBI."
Ummmm...
I am learning more and more about this country as each day passes.
The list of IIT labs reads like a bioweaponary proving ground. Moreover, the list of available jobs further sheds some light that maybe IIT has some defense department ties?
Understanding that MIT and University of California, San Diego "turned down the Justice Department's review request earlier this month, saying they were being asked to rubber stamp the Carnivore system," I am disturbed by a CNN article in which the senior vice president at IITRI and manager of the advanced technology group, said "he was unaware of the concerns expressed by other academic institutions."
I don't buy IIT's statements suggesting that they don't know what Carnivore is. Unfortunately, I doubt most of the populous will care or understand the extent of abuse by Carnivore or an apparent conspiracy with selecting IIT as the reviewer.
Looks kinda like our rights online are getting taken away from us, and being brought to hell in a handbasket. What's next, court-mandated lobotomies?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer