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H-1B Visas Increased In 96-To-1 Vote
Quite a number of people have written in about about the vote to pass more H1-B Visas for the USA. The vote means an additional 80,000 visas, bringing the total to 195,000. So -- good thing? Bad thing?
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Malice95
The entire U.S. immigration system needs to be overhauled. As it is, it's very hard to come from European countries to the U.S., since we have quotas on how many people we want, and we don't want more Caucasians. I have friends from Russia who have come here-they aren't allowed to work until they get their work visa. But it took them over a year and a half to get the visa. Cases like this are preposterous-how are you supposed to live for a year and a half before starting to work? As I said before, the entire immigration service needs to be overhauled and made more efficient.
Colin Winters
It's shocking to see how many people on Slashdot are completely clueless on the concept of H1-B visas.
For the record, I hold an H1-B visa. In the meanwhile, the company I work for is sponsoring me for a Green Card. It takes some time for a green card application to be processed by the INS. The H1-B allows me to work in the meantime.
I am by no means cheap labor. I am by no means indentured in any way. I get paid exactly as much as anyone else in my position does. If I don't like what I'm being paid I can ask for a raise or find a job somewhere else.
There are tons of other companies out there desperate for technical people. In all the interviews I've had, no one ever asked me what my visa status was - except in the context of how soon could I actually start. If I decide to switch jobs, it's a simple process of the other company filing a petition on my behalf - one which is always granted. It's just a month or so of delay.
Stop pitying H1-B visa holders. We don't need or deserve your pity.
Mmmm.. Donuts
I know what you can do about it.. learn japanese. This may sound a bit harsh, but let me explain a little. I was in university (groningen, the netherlands). we had courses in 3 different languages (no, not 1 course in 3 languages: 1 course, 1 language): dutch, english and german. This wasn't a problem for anyone, and neither were teachers with english as a 2nd language teaching in english, which was also our 2nd language. Let's face it: the scientific world is an international one, and we're not all suddenly switching to english.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Of course he's tired, on six hours sleep a night. Soon he'll be even more tired, working twice as hard on three hours of sleep a night :)
But modern US immigation law makes it so difficult to immigrate that a large proportion of immigrants are now 'illegals': those with so little to lose that they will flout the law. The xenophobes then hold up these illegals as typical of all potential immigrants, and demand ever stricter limits, or even a complete ban on immigration (check out Pat Buchanan's rant). If young, well-educated, productive, English-speaking professionals want to come to the USA in order to work and pay taxes, why do we look a gift horse in the mouth?
BTW, there is a looming 'Social Security crisis' in the USA, since there will be more retirees and fewer workers in the coming decades. Conventional wisdom says that the 'only solution' to the crisis is either to raise taxes and/or cut benefits. But conventional wisdom is wrong. If we allow young, educated, hard-working, motivated, English-speaking people to come to the USA to work and pay taxes, the 'crisis' will disappear!
So, when the politicians end up raising your taxes now and cutting Social Security by the time you retire, you can place the blame squarely where it belongs: on the xenophobes who perpetuate the current US immigration policy.
Also agreed. GCs and citizenship over H-1B anyday.
I think if you look at the bill itself, you'll see a lot of steps in this direction: Summary of S.2045
Of note - increased portability of H-1B status and I-140 backlog reduction:
Portability of H-1B status: in some areas, yes, you can transfer an H-1B in a few weeks, so it's not a big deal for employee or employer. In Sillycon Valley, which is "serviced" by the INS California Service Center, it's a multiple-month wait. (CSC is the slowest of the four INS centers.) Being able to transfer one's H-1B at the time of petition submission is a major win.
Portability of I-140s and LCs:If I read this correctly - and IANAL - but it sure looks as though it means "no more indentured servitude." If I read that section correctly, it sounds like "If INS has stalled on your I-140 for > 6 months, and you can get the same job at another employer, you don't have to start your Green Card process from square one". (Again, IANAL, and if I'm wrong on my interpretation of that section, someone needs to point that out, because I don't want anyone misled).
Backlog: Both the language in S.2586 which would tell INS to get its ass moving on cases pending more than six months, and Congressional funding for adjudications (as opposed to enforcement-only, which has been policy up to now) might give INS the capacity to reduce the backlog. This is INS we're talking about - so whether they have the will to do what they're required to do under this law remains to be seen. But if they don't, the bits about increased portability of H-1B visas as well as labor certifications and I-140s seem to be good protection to workers caught in the trap of having their paperwork sitting on an INS shelf for 2-3 years.
Every time H1-B stuff comes up, there are 400-500 posts. Experienced people claim older workers will get screwed. Less experienced people believe their skills are so great they will be spared. The difference between these two camps is the experienced people were at one time less experienced people.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I am all right now
Therefore I will be all right forever
Therefore, everyone else is all right now and will be forever.
There are numerous other, well-documented cases of H1-B horror stories, from people who have not had your good fortune. In assuming that your case applies to all of these, you provide ammunition for the advocates of H1-B versus green card, and do them a disservice. You may end up regretting taking this stance, but whether you do or not, it's still wrong.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
You are uninformed. As a H1-B worker I can change jobs, it just requires a delay while the new employer handles the transfer of the visa. That takes a couple of months, maximum. I can ask for more money - in fact I just had a review and was given a good salary increase and extra stock on top of my already-generous grant. Extra holiday to go home and visit my family? Four weeks, not a problem.
You seem to be underestimating the demand for labor in the professions that qualify for this kind of visa - there are still nowhere near enough good employees available! I interview people every week (current and potential H1-B candidates as well as US citizens) and a lot of them aren't fit to maintain a Macintosh. It's not like we're not offering good money, stock, health plans, all kinds of other benefits - we get plenty of applicants, just not many quality applicants.
If the USA wants to maintain technical leadership, expansion is exactly what the H1-B program needs. The countries losing the professionals that qualify certainly wish they weren't all leaving for greener pa$ture$.
If an industry wants something, that means it's going to screw people over.
Knee-jerk, jealous leftist rubbish. I'm sorry if this is not the case where you work (if you ARE a H1-B worker) but at my company I've never seen employees treated so well. If people aren't happy they are NOT productive - and if they are unhappy enough they leave. It costs money to train new hires - screwing people over doesn't even make business sense.
If the number of visas granted increases, but the chances of getting a green card and, eventually, citizenship, decreases as a result of the increase in applications for these things, then it may be a net loss. As I understand things, most people who get H-1 visas try to get citizenship or, at least, a green card, so they can gain the freedom they really should have to begin with.
None of this is a problem as long as people's expectations are set properly ahead of time, before they apply for an H-1 visa. If they know that they're unlikely to get a green card or visa due to the time the INS takes to process things and are aware that they will be unable to change companies during their stay in the U.S., then I have no problem with this (otherwise sad) state of affairs: the results will be from a well-informed choice rather than from propaganda.
But unfortunately, I expect the INS situation to get worse as a result but for people to continue to expect to get green cards and citizenship. More people will be disappointed as a result, and that will be a shame.
--
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
At 96-1, I don't expect to see this as an issue at tonight's presidential debate, since both parties heartily endorsed this measure, thus casting a huge vote of No-Confidence in the US schools they all lie about fixing. Whores.
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
No. It's NOT allowing them to stay here. It's allowing them to stay here for a TEMPORARY time period...big difference. If companies were serious about really needing workers, they'd vie for extensions of TIME to CURRENT H1-B visa holders, not add to the pile of new people coming in, and booting older ones out. That's bollocks. I'm all for immigration, but this is not immigration.
And humans aren't "capital".
I can't believe that the US congress is buying the bill of goods the tech industry is feeding them. H1-B visas are a liscence to import economic slaves - specifically for their natural talent - sounds a little like prostitution, no? Six years is a _long_ time in the technical fields. These people can't advance very far in their careers, because after the six years are up, adios, nice seein' ya, don't let the door hit you on the ass, etc.
The most alarming thing I've heard about this is that you actually have to apply to leave the country. It's called a 'parole' and if you don't do it or forget to do it even for an hour, you can be barred from ever entering the U.S. ever again like a common criminal.
If you want a programming job, come to Canada - the pay is almost as good and you will be treated like a human being. You will have a real chance to become a citizen if you want to, and believe me, you will want to. No offense, my American friends, but your INS is killing your karma around the world.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
But if people can't work in the US, they'll just work for the same companies somewhere else. Every US company I have worked for has locations in Europe and Asia. If their employees have visa problems in the US, they just move the job (and associated budget) to a different country. Welcome to the new, global economy.
Not only does the US not gain a job from preventing a skilled foreign worker from working in the US, it loses out on tax revenues. And many foreign scientists and engineers make inventions that form the seed for startups and product lines, opportunities that will then go to other countries.
Skilled immigration into the US is a net gain for Americans: it creates jobs and opportunities for everybody. America's openness to foreigners is at the heart of its current predominance and success in the world: welcome it.
I can't believe that the US congress is buying the bill of goods the tech industry is feeding them. H1-B visas are a liscence to import economic slaves - specifically for their natural talent - sounds a little like prostitution, no?
Six years is a _long_ time in the technical fields. These people can't advance very far in their careers, because after the six years are up, adios, nice seein' ya, don't let the door hit you on the ass, etc.
Since this is what, the third? time the limits were increased, it would be apparant to ME that this isn't such a temporary demand, and your American universities are failing to get enough trained, compentent people working. (This of course probably isn't the case, as I'm sure many of you will be posting). Since the demand is no longer temporary, you have a serious problem. Would it not make more sense then given this scenario to offer qualified Engineers / CS grads whatever a green card, and allow them to become permanant citizens? Then you'll solve this "temporary" problem for good. Uh oh! You might find those temporary workers demanding more.. and you can't flush 'em down the toilet any more and blame the big bad INS. Damn.
There's another interesting arguement here too. If the demand is temporary, does that mean that all these companies are projecting a massive downturn in their own industries? (After all, they're only needing more people for 6 years). Perhaps they should adjust their stock prospectii and inform their investors of dire roads ahead - we're not going to need 200,000 workers in 6 years!
These arguements are, of course, bunk. We know why they want more H1-B's - they're cheap labour who probably don't understand their rights, regardless of quality, because companies don't want to pay for native talent. Call a spade a spade, fellows.
For the record: I'm Canadian, and can get a much more perferable visa, a TN-1 - which is a true temporary visa - if I was interested in temporary work, which I'm not. One year sounds a lot more temporary than 6 - enough time to get comfortable, start a family, and get the shaft.
You want to come to North America and you're skilled? You can get permanant residency in Canada a lot easier, and some would argue it's a lot nicer place to live.
kudos!
..don't panic
I agree 100%. We need to get these people on green cards and eventually citizenship. In the past, immigrants were encouraged to pursue citizenship. Its time to get back to the cherished notion of an America that welcomes and nurtures immigrants.
As many people continuously point out, these H1-B workers are essentially indentured labor. They can't switch jobs, they can't ask for more money or more benefits, and they can't complain about working conditions or labor law violations because if they tried to do any of those things, they would be fired and deported instantly, and never be able to come back, since no other company would touch them after an incident like that. Meanwhile, the companies that hire H1-B workers are making out like bandits by paying them less and working them harder than any of their American counterparts, who actually enjoy some bargaining power (being able to swtich jobs, demand better pay and benefits, etc.)
Yes, yes, all the apologists are going to immediately chime in and say that employers are "required" to pay the same rate for H1-B workers as for their American counterparts, but everyone knows that's bullshit. There is basically zero enforcement of that rule. Employers can and do get away with paying far less than they would normally have to for the amount of work they are getting out of these people. And they can't compain either, because (as mentioned before), they are at the mercy of the company that is employing them. They would be fired and sent home immediately if they ever spoke up about the abuses.
This is exploitation, pure and simple. Why do you think companies push so hard for these increases? In American business today, there's a simple rule. If an industry wants something, that means it's going to screw people over. So don't give it to them!
Free Hans!
Many of the goals of this program are quite insidious...The only positive benefit is long term relationships between the technologically apt people from outside the US and those inside. This is a good thing.
It also gives people a chance to save some bucks...many more opportunities here for high tech jobs.
But the dark side...all the lies used to prop this thing up...false employment statistics, targeted wage controls...all this is rather blatant proff of how sickeningly corrupt the USA is.
My solution is raising the cap on immigration...permanent immigration...and making it illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of wealth or education.
This way, we'd end the abuse, and get lots of doctors, airline pilots, politicians, lawyers, bakers, workers...people from all walks of life. We'd even get some great progammers.
The whole H1B program is a sickening scam, both on US citizens -- due to the lies used to support it -- to the US programmers who are getting their wages and status held down -- and to the visa holders, who work for cheap, get no assurance they can stay, and the average american who is paying more than they should have to for many union protected fields.
Not to mention brain-draining the country of origin.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
lets start with the politicians, then move to the CEO's, then just to be sure, anyone who golfs.
all golf courses can then be converted to another more productive use; skate parks!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It is much more economical to give people intensive courses in Chakra or Dubai, then pay them $80K/yr to work 80hr weeks, than educate lazy Americans at expensive institutions like Stanford and Berkeley and then pay them $100K/yr to work 60hr weeks. And the foreigners don't complain too much, rarely know how to sue you over workplace issues, and will probably eventually leave the country -- indeed, if there is a dispute and you have to fire them, they have to get their little asses out of our country in 10 days!
And now that there are more of them, but the same number of green card slots, I bet they'll work even harder! Aren't they wonderfully competitive and productive, those little slant-eyed ants, those red-skinned wonders! Model minorities! Oh, how I love the dollars they produce! Oh, how many slow Americans can I fire tommorrow?
Ah, it is a wonderful day, to be an entrepreneur in America, and an even more wonderful time, to be a Company!
P.S. -- Must remember to send in that 'campaign donation' tommorrow!
... replace older working American programmers with cheaper H1-B Visa programmers ...
Yes, it is happening ... the shop I work for is now evaluating proposals from several bodyshops - some offshore, some on-shore but still comprised mostly of H1-B imported foreign programmers ... the employees are urged to seek "management" path careers as the trend is to farm out the coding (both support and development to "bodyshops") ... and this has already occurred for many of the departments of the very large company I work for ... it is getting hard to communicate in English - for a global firm that predominately does mostly U.S. business ...
How is it these clowns (the US House/Senate think they are doing high-tech industry good by this action? They are pandering to the lords of industry ... it sucks ... I will find work - even now, my management is urging the bodyshop to retain some of the "professionals" who know the system well to enable a smooth transition and ensure the same quality support ...
Make no mistake about it - this is not about a shortage of programmers - it is 100%, absolutely about cheap labor ... and the management in my company makes no bones about it - as their #1 goal is to reduce costs 10% per year in providing systems support/development for the business units ...
I am so angry ... I have nothing against the talented professionals that wish to perform their craft ... but call a spade a spade ... this charade is infuriating ... I wish there was something I could do - I am only one voice, but as it happens to others, they will feel the same way though most of the country probally could give a rat's ass ...
These people (US House/Senate, lords of industry, etc ...) are taking the bread out of my children's mouth ... I urge all to read Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Labor Shortage
And I'll sign off with some words from Phillip Greenspun in his famous book on web publishing ...
AZspot
I am not a xenophobe, I have no problem with people from other countries comign here. But I've seen with my own eyes, these H1-B workers who I have worked alongside of are indentured servants. Why do you think they are sponsored by a company? That company pretty much owns them as long as the H1-B visa lasts. These cheap companies never pay for training or overtime and then turn around and whine that their is not enough skilled workers (who they, of course, want to hire incredibly cheap). I would also say working alongside people who can be deported at the snap of management's fingers is no joy either. By the simple laws of supply and demand, H1-B workers keep tech employees salaries down. I don't think having to work alongside slaves from Asia is helping anybody out, except the top management and rich investors. Certainly not the engineers in the trenches