Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the suing-big-brother dept.
heytal writes: "Cnet has an article about lawsuits filed against advertising companies for allegedly tracking customers without their permission." We're going to see a lot more of this in the future.
Web bugs can also be used in email. For example, companies can send a bulk HTML email newsletter that has Web bugs, which will determine how many people read the letter, how often they read it, and whether they forward it to anyone. The email "would include your email address in the URL or include a coded ID or encrypted email address to track when you opened it," Smith said. - From a previous article on the site.
Now I don't know about you, but with regards to spamming and whatnot these 'web bugs' seem like a pretty blatent violation of privacy. Granted with cookies you do have the option of not using them, but this stuff takes it to the next level. Just another reason to use an email program that doesn't read HTML.
Plaintiffs allege that (the defendant) has covertly, without consent or authorization, planted 'cookies' upon Internet users' computer hard disk drives and secretly tracked their movements across the Internet," the plaintiffs charged in a filing in Denver, Colo.
How can they do that? If the user has their browser set to accept cookies, and cookies get placed on their system, what is the problem with that? Seems like a case of people's ignorance, and instead of acknowledging that, they decide to sue someone instead.
Hi there,
This is my first time on here, so please forgive any errors in posting. A friend referred me here to tell my story about fighting the Royal Bank over breech of privacy to telemarketers. If the text doesn't append properly to this message, write to me at pwake@golden.net and I'll put the entire text file on a server for anyone who wants it. If anyone has advice, feel free to email me as well...
Regards,
Greg Currie
pwake@golden.net
Hey guys,
Thought you might get a chuckle out of this one... I've dealt with the Royal Bank for around 15 years now as a client and have had enough of their cutting back services and abusing their clients. Last year they closed down my branch and relocated my account to the downtown location here in London. So, now I have to drive further to deal with the Royal Bank and when I get there I have to PAY to park... Yes, I have to PAY to deal with my bank. When I get there, if I require a teller I usually end up in line for 30 to 40 minutes as they have three tellers active on average. Customer oriented? I don't think so...
When I started my business account this year I was originally going to go with St. Willy's here in town for their wonderful customer-oriented philosophy. However, since I already had my personal account at the Royal Bank I decided to start my business account there. While starting my business account I also ordered company cheques through the bank. Sitting in my chair while we arranged all of this, I can remember a large proudly displayed and framed privacy and confidentiality policy regarding customer information. A few days after setting up my account I get a message on our business line from some unfamiliar company requesting that I call them back. When I finally get a hold of this company, I find out that they are a 3rd party to the Royal Bank who prints their business cheques and literature. First came the thin excuse for their call that they wished to confirm my information. Ok... I had already verified the information with the account manager at the bank and signed off that the information was correct, so why was I being called again? Fine. Then they go on to telemarket me their other products and services. "No... I saw your other services listed when I was at the Royal Bank and I chose only what I require..." Why these people were wasting my production time for unsolicited telemarketing because I had started a business account with the Royal Bank was beyond me...
It just so happened that both the Royal Bank and St. Willy's were both presenting to a group of new business owners (including myself) at the London Community Small Business Centre a little later on. Before the entire group I sincerely brought up my concerns about the Royal Bank closing their branches, lacking parking for customers at their main location downtown, and allowing 3rd parties to telemarket me by providing my personal information to them. She stammered a bit and then stated that "that's just the way it is..." I was floored, she was telling me, her client, that the Royal Bank did not care about their clients' needs for service or desire for security over their personal information... After a pause, another new business owner stated that she felt the concerns were valid and deserved a better response. After the meeting, I approached the Royal Bank representative to press the matter and she promised to look into it if I called her with more information.
After a lengthy period of time passed, she called me back apologizing for the delay and said that she had escalated the concern through their company's protocol for such matters. She assured me that the 3rd party was bound by a confidentiality agreement not to pass on my information and further and that they were likely just offering valuable services to myself. I informed her that that was not the point, that the Royal had given my personal information to this third party and that I had been telemarketed because of that. She agreed that it was not a very good answer from the Royal, but that it was all that they were going to do. My unfounded suspicion is that they must make money dealing with the company and don't want to lose the revenue. While closing the conversation with her, I informed her that I bill out at $250/hr for my time as a web designer and that I would, in the future, bill for my wasted time if I received unsolicited telemarketing because of the Royal Bank.
This morning I received a phone call around 10:30am from a telemarketer representing the Royal Bank. I asked, "Does this have anything to do directly with my account?" "No." "Are you a telemarketing company?" "Yes." "What is your company name?" "Box Data" I then got the individual's name, the company phone number, and the fact that they were trying to sell my telephone and internet banking services (a service that I already have). Needless to say I was not very happy at wasting my time on this telemarketer. I called my Royal Bank account manager and presented my unhappiness at being telemarketed by a 3rd party company a second time due to their company. I also reminded her of my hourly billing rate and that I would be charging for my time by the whole hour. She promptly asked for my account number and had me removed from the company's telemarketing list.
That very evening... In the middle of dinner... I get a phone call from a telemarketing company representing the Royal Bank wanting to sell me even more features. Again: "What is your company name?" "Box Data" I confirmed their contact information and the agent's name and informed him that I would be billing my hourly rate of $250 if he wished to continue. He decided to continue and try to sell me the services. I patiently listened, declined his offer, thanked him, and hung up. I then brought up my invoicing screen and made out two invoices for $250 and GST for each of the calls using my account manager's name as a purchase order number and dropped them into the mail.
I wonder if the Royal Bank will just pay them? I doubt... I've seen how much they value profits over customer service... But I put a 30 days notice on the invoices and will send a second letter if the invoices are not paid. If my second letter does not result in payment then I will either forward the delinquent account to a collection agency or take the Royal Bank to small claims court. Both parties were informed of my billing rate and policy, and I consider that a legally binding verbal contract that I am willing to pursue in court.
So, if I get paid I'll take my spouse out for a nice dinner compliments of the Royal Bank. If I don't get paid even after going to court, then I will at least have stood up for my personal right to privacy against a large profit-driven corporation.
Regards,
Greg.
If the user has their browser set to accept cookies, and cookies get placed on their system, what is the problem with that? Seems like a case of people's ignorance, and instead of acknowledging that, they decide to sue someone instead.
Well personally I see it as a violation of trust. Cookies have other uses than just tracking just like there's more reasons to leave your door unlocked than to let strangers walk into your home.
For example, does the knowledge that I choose to read my email give anyone the right to send me lots of bulk, unsolicited email every day? Some people might argue yes, because I have the option of using filtering software or simply not reading it. I would argue no.
Can people steal my car because I left it unlocked? Can they place a hidden camera in my house because I left the window open?
If the answer is no, why should they have the right to put unsolicited cookies on my system because my browser is set up to allow it for other reasons? It goes beyond reasonable expectations of what the customer/victim is likely to want.
Reasonable expectations might be allowing someone to come onto your property so they can knock on your door. If they came onto your property to dump their garbage or knock your house over (even if you didn't have a security system to stop them), it would be far beyond reasonable expectations.
Too bad the law firms involved (notably Milberg, Weiss, Bershad, Hynes & Lerach) are well known sharks, uninterested in anything but their own bottom lines. These are the guys who mount investor class actions whenever stocks go down, and the ones who sponsored California's Prop. 211 a few years ago.
If an ethical plaintiff were involved, I'd give this story more credence.
Technically, couldn't tracking be considered the same as cracking?
Why is it illegal for Joe Cracker to hack himself into a corp's website/intranet in order to get sensitive information while it's perfectly legal for that same corp to track the user's sensitive information?
I think that license agreement do too much for the big boys and not enough for the users. Wouldn't it be possible for a user to specify his own "license agreement", and then the sites could refuse/accept him as a viewer of that content? If such a mechanism could be put in place, the sites wouldn't have any choice but to agree with the most users, and if they fail to respect the surfers' "licence agreements", they would be liable, just as ordinary surfers are when they break a site's license agreement.
Why is it you think the net could not survive without advertising? Maybe without it, sites would actually focus on content once again.
Everything was going along just fine until 1994-1995 when everything became commercialized.
Online transactions are about the only big difference nowadays...and, well, if you are selling things via the web, you really don't need advertising on your web page, now do you?
Slashdot Mirror
Now I don't know about you, but with regards to spamming and whatnot these 'web bugs' seem like a pretty blatent violation of privacy. Granted with cookies you do have the option of not using them, but this stuff takes it to the next level. Just another reason to use an email program that doesn't read HTML.
UBU
Plaintiffs allege that (the defendant) has covertly, without consent or authorization, planted 'cookies' upon Internet users' computer hard disk drives and secretly tracked their movements across the Internet," the plaintiffs charged in a filing in Denver, Colo.
How can they do that? If the user has their browser set to accept cookies, and cookies get placed on their system, what is the problem with that? Seems like a case of people's ignorance, and instead of acknowledging that, they decide to sue someone instead.
BilldaCat
Hi there, This is my first time on here, so please forgive any errors in posting. A friend referred me here to tell my story about fighting the Royal Bank over breech of privacy to telemarketers. If the text doesn't append properly to this message, write to me at pwake@golden.net and I'll put the entire text file on a server for anyone who wants it. If anyone has advice, feel free to email me as well... Regards, Greg Currie pwake@golden.net Hey guys, Thought you might get a chuckle out of this one... I've dealt with the Royal Bank for around 15 years now as a client and have had enough of their cutting back services and abusing their clients. Last year they closed down my branch and relocated my account to the downtown location here in London. So, now I have to drive further to deal with the Royal Bank and when I get there I have to PAY to park... Yes, I have to PAY to deal with my bank. When I get there, if I require a teller I usually end up in line for 30 to 40 minutes as they have three tellers active on average. Customer oriented? I don't think so... When I started my business account this year I was originally going to go with St. Willy's here in town for their wonderful customer-oriented philosophy. However, since I already had my personal account at the Royal Bank I decided to start my business account there. While starting my business account I also ordered company cheques through the bank. Sitting in my chair while we arranged all of this, I can remember a large proudly displayed and framed privacy and confidentiality policy regarding customer information. A few days after setting up my account I get a message on our business line from some unfamiliar company requesting that I call them back. When I finally get a hold of this company, I find out that they are a 3rd party to the Royal Bank who prints their business cheques and literature. First came the thin excuse for their call that they wished to confirm my information. Ok... I had already verified the information with the account manager at the bank and signed off that the information was correct, so why was I being called again? Fine. Then they go on to telemarket me their other products and services. "No... I saw your other services listed when I was at the Royal Bank and I chose only what I require..." Why these people were wasting my production time for unsolicited telemarketing because I had started a business account with the Royal Bank was beyond me... It just so happened that both the Royal Bank and St. Willy's were both presenting to a group of new business owners (including myself) at the London Community Small Business Centre a little later on. Before the entire group I sincerely brought up my concerns about the Royal Bank closing their branches, lacking parking for customers at their main location downtown, and allowing 3rd parties to telemarket me by providing my personal information to them. She stammered a bit and then stated that "that's just the way it is..." I was floored, she was telling me, her client, that the Royal Bank did not care about their clients' needs for service or desire for security over their personal information... After a pause, another new business owner stated that she felt the concerns were valid and deserved a better response. After the meeting, I approached the Royal Bank representative to press the matter and she promised to look into it if I called her with more information. After a lengthy period of time passed, she called me back apologizing for the delay and said that she had escalated the concern through their company's protocol for such matters. She assured me that the 3rd party was bound by a confidentiality agreement not to pass on my information and further and that they were likely just offering valuable services to myself. I informed her that that was not the point, that the Royal had given my personal information to this third party and that I had been telemarketed because of that. She agreed that it was not a very good answer from the Royal, but that it was all that they were going to do. My unfounded suspicion is that they must make money dealing with the company and don't want to lose the revenue. While closing the conversation with her, I informed her that I bill out at $250/hr for my time as a web designer and that I would, in the future, bill for my wasted time if I received unsolicited telemarketing because of the Royal Bank. This morning I received a phone call around 10:30am from a telemarketer representing the Royal Bank. I asked, "Does this have anything to do directly with my account?" "No." "Are you a telemarketing company?" "Yes." "What is your company name?" "Box Data" I then got the individual's name, the company phone number, and the fact that they were trying to sell my telephone and internet banking services (a service that I already have). Needless to say I was not very happy at wasting my time on this telemarketer. I called my Royal Bank account manager and presented my unhappiness at being telemarketed by a 3rd party company a second time due to their company. I also reminded her of my hourly billing rate and that I would be charging for my time by the whole hour. She promptly asked for my account number and had me removed from the company's telemarketing list. That very evening... In the middle of dinner... I get a phone call from a telemarketing company representing the Royal Bank wanting to sell me even more features. Again: "What is your company name?" "Box Data" I confirmed their contact information and the agent's name and informed him that I would be billing my hourly rate of $250 if he wished to continue. He decided to continue and try to sell me the services. I patiently listened, declined his offer, thanked him, and hung up. I then brought up my invoicing screen and made out two invoices for $250 and GST for each of the calls using my account manager's name as a purchase order number and dropped them into the mail. I wonder if the Royal Bank will just pay them? I doubt... I've seen how much they value profits over customer service... But I put a 30 days notice on the invoices and will send a second letter if the invoices are not paid. If my second letter does not result in payment then I will either forward the delinquent account to a collection agency or take the Royal Bank to small claims court. Both parties were informed of my billing rate and policy, and I consider that a legally binding verbal contract that I am willing to pursue in court. So, if I get paid I'll take my spouse out for a nice dinner compliments of the Royal Bank. If I don't get paid even after going to court, then I will at least have stood up for my personal right to privacy against a large profit-driven corporation. Regards, Greg.
Well personally I see it as a violation of trust. Cookies have other uses than just tracking just like there's more reasons to leave your door unlocked than to let strangers walk into your home.
For example, does the knowledge that I choose to read my email give anyone the right to send me lots of bulk, unsolicited email every day? Some people might argue yes, because I have the option of using filtering software or simply not reading it. I would argue no.
Can people steal my car because I left it unlocked? Can they place a hidden camera in my house because I left the window open?
If the answer is no, why should they have the right to put unsolicited cookies on my system because my browser is set up to allow it for other reasons? It goes beyond reasonable expectations of what the customer/victim is likely to want.
Reasonable expectations might be allowing someone to come onto your property so they can knock on your door. If they came onto your property to dump their garbage or knock your house over (even if you didn't have a security system to stop them), it would be far beyond reasonable expectations.
===
If an ethical plaintiff were involved, I'd give this story more credence.
sulli
RTFJ.
Technically, couldn't tracking be considered the same as cracking?
Why is it illegal for Joe Cracker to hack himself into a corp's website/intranet in order to get sensitive information while it's perfectly legal for that same corp to track the user's sensitive information?
I think that license agreement do too much for the big boys and not enough for the users. Wouldn't it be possible for a user to specify his own "license agreement", and then the sites could refuse/accept him as a viewer of that content? If such a mechanism could be put in place, the sites wouldn't have any choice but to agree with the most users, and if they fail to respect the surfers' "licence agreements", they would be liable, just as ordinary surfers are when they break a site's license agreement.
Just my 2 cents.
J:P
--- Worst tagline ever.
Everything was going along just fine until 1994-1995 when everything became commercialized.
Online transactions are about the only big difference nowadays...and, well, if you are selling things via the web, you really don't need advertising on your web page, now do you?