Slashdot Mirror
Where Do Open Source Developers Hide Their Resumes?
Anthony Boyd asks: "I am a Web Manager in Silicon Valley, looking to hire full-time developers who know SQL, PHP, and Apache. With bonus points for knowing XHTML and Solaris. I am having a miserable time of it. It seems that supporting the Open Source community means limiting yourself to an incredibly small talent pool, or supporting people who are in such high demand that they are constantly off the market. What I am wondering is what /. readers do when they are looking for a new job. Do you just read the classifieds? Do you post your resume? Where? Are there forums you use? Tell me where to go to find you guys, because I would like to throw money and jobs your way."
Another great turn-off is "developer with x years of Java experience" or even "developer with x years of experience". These things have two problems -
1) With newer technologies they get absurd real fast - How many people actually have 3 years of Java experience?? That makes you look idiotic real fast, and it makes applicants laugh. Some people may take it seriously and not apply, even if they're quite qualified.
2) In any case you're limiting your pool arbitrarily. Very arbitrarily - how do you know some with 2 years of experience won't work out, but someone with 3 years will? How do you know a young whipper-snapper who's eager to learn isn't the best person for the job? Again, if you're lucky, people with less than x years of experience in whatever will be undeterred but some bright people still won't want to deal with that crap...
Speaking as somebody who is trying to hire a bunch of Solaris C++ developers, I know how hard it is.
But I've got to take some exception to your comment about "maybe you should re-evaluate the quality of your employees". I recruited a friend from a previous job. I'd worked with her on one small project, and I thought she'd done a pretty good job on it which is why I'd recruited her. But my boss doesn't like her much, and it muttering about firing her. The thing is, I knew she was a good person to work with, and I knew that she did well on that one small project we worked on, but I really couldn't tell you ahead of time how well she'd do on a huge project like this one. I'm inclined to believe she'll do really well once I get it through my boss's head this project isn't as easy to get up to speed on for us ordinary mortals who, unlike him, weren't around when it was first written. I know I'm 3 months ahead of her and I'm having a lot of trouble getting my head around the complexities of the server - fortunately my project has a further out due date.
I guess my point is that just because a friend you recruited isn't fitting in well is no reason to have your boss question your abilities!
(BTW: In spite of my misgivings about the company's growing pains, I have great confidence that it's getting worked out. It's really a great place to work, even if you have that slight possiblity that you might write a bug that could bring down western civilization hanging over your head.)
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
I'm not going to claim any great experience in the job market (I've been working in IT as a sysadmin and programmer off and on while finishing my degree for about the last year and a half, for context; ~70% of my friends are in IT full time and cover the gamut in terms of experience). Still, it seems that the problems that keep good people from connecting with good employers and vice versa are always HR-related.
The primary symptom of this is what I call the Laundry List syndrome. It seems to happen when the HR person(s) go about asking all the dept. heads what skill sets they need. Then, not knowing the difference between, say JSP and IOS, they place an ad for ONE person, listing ALL of ths skills as REQUIRED. :-( I can't count the number of times I've searched for "perl and linux and java" only to have a third of the result set read like so: "Java, AWT, JSP, Servlets, JDBC, Unix (Solaris, Linux expert admin level), perl, SQL, XML, DHTML, and Photoshop". Predictably this position goes unfilled and nobody is happy in the end. HR people need to _understand_ how what they're looking for fits into the company's goals in order to do their job well.
HR depts. (and recruiters) all to frequently tend to use really, really rigid demarcations and heuristics to attempt to sift for qualified potential employees. "Oh, we're sorry, you have everything we need in skills 1 - 4, and seem like a really easy guy to work with, but you only have 3 years experience with Java instead of 4." I'm not going to say I'm as good with Unix (with ~1 1/2 years experience) as some 20+ year admin; that's just silly. But, let's be honest here, what substantive difference is there between 2 years exp. and 1.5? Yet time and again I've been hit with walls like that, and I've seen it happen many times to friends. If less Procrustean standards were applied, the companies would be able to get people who were at least close enough to learn and come up to speed (this requires good teamwork in the workplace, of course), enabling work to accelerate instead of stagnate or decelerate as the existing employee base gets burned out from having no coworkers to rely on to share the load...
And of course let's not forget the classic chestnuts of "You're taking classes/have a family and thus can't work 60 hours a week, so you're useless to us." Internet Time is bullshit, and is purely a symptom of organizational failure: failure in planning, failure in leadership, failure in marketing, etc. etc. If you can't get all your work done at a reasonably human pace in 40 hours a week, something is W*R*O*N*G with your company.
In short, my sympathy for employers who whine about not being able to find anyone with one breath and yet reject 9 out of 10 applicants with the next is extremely limited.
As a side tangent, I recently found a funny posting in 1997 to Usenet talking about Usenet job ads (and the sad-but-true-insert-bitter-pained-chuckle-here things therein). I still see the exact same things in usenet and web board ads today. The archived post is here.
--
Fuck Censorship.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
The messages seem to suggest that perhaps my requirements for the job were too high. In fact, my actual problem, I've determined, was that my requirements were too low. I was inundated with nearly 200 ASP developers who were so clearly pro-Microsoft that they would have undermined the entire architecture I am putting in place. Apparently, anyone can get "Microsoft Certified" -- including some very, very sloppy developers. I brought many non-PHP developers in for interviews, hoped to train one of them, and as one woman put it: "let's just use Frontpage, it's easy." When I asked how Frontpage would be able to meet coding goals of using XHTML, PHP, and browser-neutral DOM scripting, her response was again typical: "HTML, ASP, and JScript are close enough."
I just took in too much. What eventually worked for me was searching only for PHP on hotjobs.com, monster.com, alt.php, and Google's advanced search (well, on Google I had to add some search terms like "resume" to focus the search, but same idea). Thanks everyone for advice. I'll go answer all the emails now.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
"Exciting Web development firm seeks creative, driven programmers with experience in Perl, C/C++, Java, XML and OO technologies. Extreme programming and OO design skills a plus."
I've been around this block more than once, and as a technical job seeker, this is an ad I'd ignore.
Why?
First off, even though the intent may have been to attract people who *aren't* language specific, the laundry-list of high-level languages is distracting at best, and intimidating at worst. For example, I am a good C++ coder, and a not a half-bad OO designer. I know a lot about OO theory, and I've probably read every classic book on OO design and development that you have. Nevertheless, I don't know Java, and I don't know XML as if I were working with it full-time. But when I read your ad, I find these skills listed up there in equal stature with C++ and "OO technologies." So what is it? Do you do C++ and OO design, or do you do Java programming, or do you do XML programming? Or do you do mostly Perl coding? Some combination of the three? What priority? From what I've just read, they're all equally important.
Second off--believe it or not--I'm shopping for you, not the other way around. You say that you want only the best. You say that you know this is a tough hiring market. But your ad doesn't do *anything* to discriminate itself from the thousands of other ads that look just like it. Furthermore, your list of "requirements" looks generic--I want to have some idea of what a company actually *does* on a day-to-day basis, before I go through the hassle-cycle of trying to contact you/submitting resume/calling for response on daily basis. So when I read your ad, I have to wonder: are you a Java house that does some Perl? Are you a hard-core C++ house? Do you develop primarily using an OO methodology, and if so, do you do it in a proper OO language, or do you try to bend other languages to your will? As a job seeker, I could try to deduce it from the subtle wording of your ad, or I could just jump one ad down the list to the company that has listed it's requirements as strong preferences, not just a laundry list of hip technologies.
Finally, even if I did decide to call you up for some reason (maybe a slow ad day in the paper), if you invited me for an interview and grilled me mercilessly (or even worse, started the grilling on the phone), I'd probably walk out (or hang up) on you. As a smart person, I am actually *less* likely to sit through a defense of my intelligence for a complete stranger. Life's too short--and there are far too many good jobs--to sit through an interview like that. I think other Smart People (tm) would agree with me here--the jobs that put you through the Microsoft-Patented-Intelligence-Test are usually a little too self-important to really bother with, unless you have some burning desire to work there to begin with (a.k.a "Rudy" syndrome: "I've always wanted to go to Notre Dame...").
So basically, if you did manage to get me to call you with your generic ad, you'd likely turn me off completely with your interview methodology. My advice to prospective employers is to place an ad like this (let's assume you're a C++-centric shop):
"Exciting software development firm seeks highly creative, independent thinkers to assist in the development of it's C++-based product line. Experience with C++ is preferred, but all candidates with relevant OO language experience will be considered. Experience with any of XML, Java or Perl a plus."
Obviously, fill in your own skills as needed, but I think the concept is clear--cast a wide net, and use the interview to filter down the candidate list to those you would like to work with. And as for trying to filter "intelligent" candidates out--well, you're going to have to rely on gut instinct here. DON'T attempt to grill a candidate on obscure principles, or language details, or even bizarre algorithms, whatever you do. Instead, talk to the candidate for a while, ask them pertinent, interested questions about their previous work...maybe even ask them to take part in a code review (your code or theirs). There are lots of different approaches to this problem that will give you an idea of their skill level, and won't require that you be a draconian interviewer.
Anyhoo...hope this helps someone. I couldn't let the above ad go "unanswered"...;)
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
You might wanna try out geekfinder.com. It's focused a lot on the userfriendly comic readership, but there are a lot of highly talented IS folks who submit thier info to geekfinder
I'm having a hard time understanding how you could have a firm grasp on C++ & OO theory yet not know Java. Why not just learn it? It seems like it would take you all of a weekend. Java is just C++ minus a lot of stupidity (and performance); at least that how it always looked to me.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Plus it shows that the interviewer has some knowledge of the topic in question, especially if you get in and discuss the reasoning behind the answers. In an interview, I want to get an estimate of how much the other employees know as well... will I be a "guru" simply because I can answer a few questions the interviewer looked up in a book? Or am I going to be in a level playing field with other strong programmers?
And more importantly, it lets you see how they think, and opens a dialog to find out about their personality. Many techies will be on edge if you just ask the "HR" types of questions. But if you open up some good tech questions, they open up and actually talk to you, so you can find out if they are a good fit personality-wise in addition to technology-wise.
But there is a point to the original quote: if it's a full press, nonstop grilling of obscure facts, you may alienate the interviewee. Especially if you focus on the things that aren't relavant to day-to-day coding, and you expect them to know it instead of knowing where to look it up. (When was the last time you had to sort out an obscure C precedence problem without a copy of K&R handy?)
Is where I put my resume and got a swell job doing exactly what you're looking for... PHP, SQL, and Apache.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
I still find that everytime I update my resume online people coming knocking down my door with interviews and offers. It's really quite easy to find any job nowadays.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Look, you don't need someone who is specially trained in open source. Just hire any good programmer, and explain to them what needs to be done, and put them on it. Even if they have only worked on Windows previously, they'll figure it out and pick it up (well, if they are totally unix illiterate, their might be a more extenisve learning curve on that).
If you don't fetter your code with obscene licenses or keep it secrete, then you will be an "open source" developer.
It's not like you need a sixth finger or something. "Open Source" development is behaviour, and anyone can adopt it. Importantly, it is a property of YOU as well as your employee. You have to not keep your code secrete, and let other people make use of it -- that's all.
One other thing -- I don't think Solaris counts as open source.
I'm not sure what the problem is that you're having. Is it that you're looking for resumes with specific technologies and not finding them? If so, perhaps you just need to expand your search (find "Web developers", not "PHP coders"), and then ask some good questions in the interview to see if they can handle picking up something new... or perhaps they already know PHP, but didn't mention it on the resume in favor of brevity?
I know my resume does *not* list everything I know... not by a far cry. I just don't believe in having a 4 page resume (it's already two pages, and that's sticking to the important stuff).
Of course, this *is* a tough market. I'm always looking for good Web or Java people -- they exist, but most of them have jobs they already are quite comfortable with. The dot-com blowout probably displaced some folks, but if they were any good, someone else probably snapped them up.
In any case, stick with it, and be prepared to do a fair amount of legwork... you can't just search a job board for "PHP and Perl and MySQL" and expect candidates to drop in your lap. Actually, the best results I've ever gotten have come from ads placed in local papers that were very specific, like:
"Exciting Web development firm seeks creative, driven programmers with experience in Perl, C/C++, Java, XML and OO technologies. Extreme programming and OO design skills a plus."
So in that ad (not a real ad!) I made sure to mention a few good programming languages, figuring I wouldn't hire someone who didn't know *one* of those. I also mentioned some programming disciplines of interest, to let the really good candidates know I'm not a PHB, but might actually know something about the art of programming.
Then I interview the hell out of them. If they can even answer 20% of what is thrown at them, they are at least trainable to be the sort of person I want. If they answer 100% of the questions, they are either godlike or trying to BS me. Those who BS never get the job... those who say "Damn, I don't know that one" might get the job. If they actually *want* to know the answer, they are almost 100% likely to get the job.
Oh... obviously this hiring strategy requires a lead programmer who is really good. Get a headhunter to find this person if you must, but *get them*. Pay them well. Give them options. Whatever it takes, that is the cornerstone of the technical portion of the company, he will train those raw recruits into talented professionals.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
This might offend some of the readers of slashdot, but I don't think this comment was intended to be flamebait. At any rate, I think a lot of what the author was saying is *correct*.
Just because a message does not agree with yours does not make it flamebait.
--Be human.
Why from time to time I like to work with head hunters, and they all tell you that they need to know who has and has not seen your resume.
If a company has seen your resume and it is sent to them by a head hunter they have a conflict, which did they get first? Can they prove that etc. So they usualy respond by skipping the problem and both go into the bin. If I post my resume somewhere it becomes very hard to work with a head hunter.
The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
If you are having problems finding qualified people, perhaps it is because your selection criteria are too narrow. I have read 'help-wanteds' where the criteria would have been impossible for anyone to meet ("...minimum of 10 years of java...").
A good programmer, someone who knows his salt, who has a good understanding of programming, will have absolutly no problem learning the new skills you require, in a relativly short ammount of time. In fact, your company would probably be better off with a seasoned veteran who does not know the specific skills you desire, than some fool who can put those on his resume but really doesn't know anything.
Putting such narrow criteria in the advert will just cause many talented programmers to not apply, b/c they don't match all you are looking for and fear their resume will not be looked at. This is especially a problem in larger firms, where H/R screens all the resumes first, and will 'circular file' all those that don't match what is desired, never allowing the techies to take a look.
Companies should realize that skill, competence, and general knowledge are far more important that buzzwords. The time spend for a pro to learn the new technologies will quickly pale in comparison to the increased efficiency, reduced bugs, etc., in his work.
Techies.com is awesome
Daniel
Lets face it, the number of people who both know *NIX, and are actively interested in web development and are also talented and skilled is pretty small.
I was very lucky to get work at a web development company way back in the day (1994 i think), and from there went on to work at ISPs, which were the only places that i was able to really figure out the web programming/internet server systems that i now rely on.
For the lone developer, becoming proficient in *NIX-based web development means doing everything from installing linux for the first time, to getiing web servers up and going, to figuring out
IP addressing, firewalls, DNS issues, web servers, HTML, Javascript, page layout tools, image editing tools, HTTP, web programming languages, *NIX sys admin, and many other incidental skills you need along the way to tie it all together.
Its really not the easiest thing to do, and not many people i know have got the broad understanding of the internet and its systems that are required to do this job properly.
For most of the time i have spent working in the industry, I was underpaid, overworked and generally dicked around, and I'm not keen to repeat those experiences.
So if youre finding web developers scarce its probably because we're all too jaded from the crap we've had to deal with from 90% of the companies that have anything to do with the internet.
Open-Source web hackers, if you find a good job, stick with it, there are precious few out there.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long