Does Age Really Matter?

ageless asks: "At my current job, age seems to be a major factor when it comes to listening to what I have to say and believing that what I say is true. I've done so many different things, like filling bosses' requests to build an online app that does something complex in a short time, building and maintaining servers and security, and act as a consultant for authentication code and security on various platforms. Yet, none of them respect me because I'm still in school and because I'm young. It's very frustrating. Does anyone else see this as a problem? Does anyone else have this problem?" I think it all should boil down to experience, however many people mistakenly believe that experience is proportional to age. This belief is faulty, however, when you consider that tomorrow's computer professionals start gaining experience in their teens, not in their twenties or thirties.

Comments

Age, Experience, and Life

[rho]

Remember, there's Age (a chronological measurement), there's Experience (a measure of time spent at at task), and there's Life (no proper metric exists).

Experience is sometimes more than "I've set up sendmail a jillion times!" Sometimes, it's more like "Our CFO hates sendmail. Rather than argue with him over the nits, I'll just install qmail."

Life is a great teacher, and life experience is very valuable. I've seen enough hot-shot teenagers who think they know everything turn into twenty-ish people who suddenly realize how little they know.

Yes it matters

[Syberghost]

When you're older, you'll understand why.

-

Yes, but is it the right kind of experience?

[dmorin]

I agree completely that young engineers can hack code with the best of them. But do they often have the political skills to know when to talk and when to shut up? Just because a problem can be answered by the application of 300 hours of programming does NOT mean that I should listen to the person who offers this as a solution, or that he should pout when I tell him no. Know what I mean? Does the guy asking the question know how to take into consideration things like vacation time, customer impact, quality assurance, all that sort of stuff? Even simple questions often have far reaching results. Recently I was in a meeting to argue with 6 people whether to change the standard prefix for our html directory from "/t" to "/html" (names changed to protect the innocent). The /t was an artifact of a decision made 3 years ago that was no longer relevant, and confused the heck out of new people. But I was argued down, and /t stays, because "It would take 4 weeks of time to change all the existing content, and we don't have that much time." The option at this point is not to yell and scream and throw technology solutions at it ("I can dump all the content to the file system, run sed on it, then ftp it back into the repository!"), it's to learn to work with that sort of obstacle so that the next time you know how to present the problem.

Some things to remember when you think that you're being unfairly shot down:

• You do not get to decide what is an adequate use of your time. That's what your boss is for. Are you acutely aware of the fact that the client has already given the boss a budget, and that when you say it'll take you an extra week, that puts extra $$ into the budget that might not be there?
• Rarely does your time NOT affect other people, so consider what dependencies you are creating. If it'll take you an extra week to do it "the right way", can the people who are waiting for your code before starting theirs wait that long?
• Who needs to be trained in order for your solution to work? CAN those people be trained? I don't use JSP at work because I don't expect to train my HTML people in that syntax.
• Not everybody needs to know everything. When you're showing a demo to the boss's boss, do NOT say stuff like "This came out lousy, we could do it better if we had more [time,money]."

One of my favorite pieces of advice for headstrong young engineers who don't understand why sometimes the answer is "no". Imagine you have a brick, and you tie a piece of string to that brick. You want to get the brick moved a few feet to the left. If you yank on the string real hard, the brick won't move, and the string will break. But if you exert a smaller, but constant, force on the string, then the brick will move. Sure you won't get it there fast, but you'll get it there.

Why it happens

[Salamander]

I'll bet that every one of the people who fails to take you or your opinions as seriously as you feel they should knows exactly how it feels because they went through exactly the same thing when they were your age. In fact, that's why some of them do it to you now; it's a rite of passage sort of thing, and they feel that if they had to go through it then you should too. Builds character, or something. I'm not saying that's right, but when you get right down to it that's what motivates a lot of their behavior.

I can also think of a few other reasons you might get these sorts of reactions. One is that here may be some issue with how you present your opinions. Like it or not, it is your responsibility to understand your audience and convey your views in a way that is convincing to them. In this sense it's not so much an age thing as a culture thing; an older person from "outside the culture" who didn't present things "the right way" would get the same reaction. Consider what happens when a sales guy or an exec walks into a room full of engineers.

Lastly, we come up against the fact that older people do have some advantages over younger ones. For example:

• Older people have usually learned at some point (usually the hard way) the dangers of making brash assertions or over-optimistic predictions, so they can usually be counted on not to make those particular errors. They may often err in the opposite direction, in fact, but that's a whole different problem.
• Older people, even the ones who seem pretty inept socially, will always always always have a finer appreciation for the human dimensions of problem-solving than any fresh-out ever did.
• Older people don't just have ideas and knowledge, but can place them in context. A common failing among young techies - and the brightest are usually the most susceptible - is that they get caught up in an individual idea or technology's coolness but don't have the background to see how it will interact with other ideas or technologies. The older folks may not know as much about current technology, but what they do know they know in a deeper or broader sense, connecting it to a whole bunch of other little pieces of information that may (or may not) turn out to be critical.

Despite all that, there's a lot to be said for fresh perspectives and youthful enthusiasm. Your ideas may seem flighty or unreasonable to some, but a wise man once said that because reasonable men don't try to change the world all progress depends on unreasonable men. My point here is that you can't expect them to subscribe to your idea of "merit" without some justification. Just as they have ways of doing technical things and won't change those without good reason, they have ways of doing social things and won't change those without good reason. Show them the reasons. Anticipate their objections, address their concerns, and show them in terms they will accept how things would work better if they were more accepting of ideas from "people like you".

BTW, I'm 35. I get flak from both the youngsters and the oldsters. It's like "no man's land" in the battle between generations.

Are you sure it's age?

[cowboy junkie]

How exactly do you know it's because you are young? Garnering respect from your peers can be as much about how you conduct yourself as what you can do. Is it at all possible that you're just an arrogant jerk? Or on the flipside, that your demeanor doesn't show much self-confidence?

Anyhow, regardless of age, who at one point or another doesn't feel they are getting enough respect from the boss/co-workers/guy at Starbucks, etc.?

Communication Styles

[Prof_Dagoski]

I don't know so much if its age or the communication styles that older people--relative term here--use. Young people, especially teens, tend to be agressive and absolutist in communication style. When you communicate this way with your peers in age its just the way you talk, but at least on subconscious level, most older folks tend to think you're just being young and reckless. The communication stlyes used by older, read established professionals in say their late thirties, is quieter and more inclusive. Arrgh... I hate these vague terms, but its like I know it when I hear it. Anyway, before you even communicate, take a look at what you want to say and try to find a way to say that comes off as humble and less cocky. Demonstrate in your arguement that you've thought through all the points, and avoid stating that you know what's best or 'what's best period'. Instead show the merits of your idea and consequences of the rivals. And, avoid challenging a person. I used to do this alot at work and it gained me something of a bad rep. Instead, come at the position in a way that gives ther person credit while pointing out problems with their position. Its a tough skill to learn, but it can save your butt as a young professional, and will allow you to forge alliances within your organization.

And that's another point: Young techies often have superb technical skills, superior skills at that, but seldom have little in they way of social skills. I cannot emphasize to everyone here that people skills are critical to your success as a professional. You may be right, or you have an inovative idea that will save the world, but it doesn't mean jack unless you can convince other people of that. And, having convinced other people of that, you still need allies who believe in you as a person to help move the idea along. A lot of geeks like to pretend that people skills don't matter and that its all technical prowess and experience. Hate to burst your bubble, but people have not changed all that much in the last fifty odd years that computers have been changing the world, and you still have to know how to deal with them.

Yes, age does matter

[JWhitlock]

I read over what this yound person had to say, and it says he's accomplished a number of tasks, yet is not respected because he is young and still in school.

Yep, seems he needs a few more years...

The bottom line is that age and experience do count. I could have been building Linux kernels from .1, but if it's my first day in a real job setting, then I should shut up and listen to what is going on around me. Business experience counts. Time on "real-world" projects counts. Overall years of experience in an industry count.

When I started my job, I quickly realized that I had a better handle on C++ than the others around me. Most were veterans, with 30+ years of assembler and Fortran under their belts. When I had to start learning Fortran and assembler from 30 year old machines, I began to wonder what it would look like in my language of choice. I could see much room for improvement in data structures, in code maintance, in comment style.

But I kept my mouth closed. I learned from my co-workers, I studied the code, I got to know machines that should be in a museum. When it got too much, I coded at home, using templates and exceptions to my heart's content.

I've been at it for two years, and I'm starting to get the respect. I can be trusted with a major project. I know the language, and how it's used. When I argue technology, I'm arguing at their level, not at the "gee-whiz, this stuff is so out-of-date" level. I don't call security holes "obvious". In other words, I don't insult those with more experience than me.

Go watch some Kung-Fu movies. They often have the young, brash fighter with natural talent, getting his ass kicked by an older man (or woman - go see Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon already!!!). Humility is a good lesson to learn, and if you can't be humble, at least fake it. If you are good, they will eventually accept you, and you will get respect.

Once you get respect, you just need to keep on your toes, so some young thug doesn't come along and get you...

Until then, growing facial hair makes you look a lot older.

Yes, age CAN matter

[OlympicSponsor]

I have worked in places where I thought I was being dismissed merely because of my age. And some of those times I probably was. But looking back, I can see that some of those times I definitely wasn't.

This is clearest now that I'm older (I'm 27). A coworker's teenager or just-out-of-school applicant will come out and say something so totally ridiculous that I almost can't help but laugh. From their expressions it's clear they think I'm dismissing them "just because they are young". But the reality is that they really don't understand and that real understanding will only come with time.

It may be that you are a coding (or admin-ing, or whatever) god. That doesn't mean you understand The Issues: user psychology, social norms, political balances, etc. Here's a perfect example:

From time to time, an email virus erupts on the Internet. Post after post says "if only everybody would turn off feature X". These people have an "immature understanding". It's just a simple fact that you can't get "everybody" to do ANYTHING. You can explain this to an immature (of whatever age, but often pre-20's) person but they will just stare at you blankly and then go on to explain why it would work "if only" everyone would...

If literally no one will listen to you, you should at least consider the possibility that it's because what you are saying isn't worth listening to. If, upon sincere and mature reflection, you still think your idea has merit, ask someone why they are rejecting it. And don't dismiss their answer just because they are old.
--
MailOne

wisdom of the ages

[omega_rob]

Snatch the pebble from my hand, grasshopper. You will know when you are ready, and all doors will open before you.

In the meantime, pipe down junior and get me a frickin' coffee.

omega_rob

Sadly, age does matter

[typical geek]

Even in the dotcom world, age does matter.

I think Salon just ran a piece where they were saying that 30 year old CEO's were out, and VC's are looking for a CEO's with grey hair. Perhaps it was reading business2.com on the exercycle that I read this, whatever.

Too many programmers and /.'ers are myopic, they think computer skills are all that matters, when in the real world, people skills, marketing skills, finance skills and networking (not LAN, people to people) skills are just as important, if not more. With just a little reflection, I can list tens of companies that have advanced, technically wonderful ideas that have failed or are failing, ie. Amiga, FreeBSD and even Apple, while companies that have less trendy technologies, but better marketing, are still beating the world, ie. Microsoft.

So, even if your clueless, gray haired manager may not know Perl or PHP, they've been competing in the junglel of business for decades longer than you have, and no a few survival tricks that you don't. Learn from them, respect them and eventually replace them, but if you try to replace them too early, well, look up something called the Children's Crusade, or look up the history of NeXT.