W3C On How To Fix Browsers

kellan1 writes: "The W3C has published a note Common User Agent Problems, aka why do web browsers suck, and what can you do about it?"

Comments

How about following the DTDs?

[Enry]

Browsers started going to hell in a handbasket when they forgot why HTML was around in the first place - to make a platform-independent system for sharing information. Thus, a web page in Netscape *should* look different than a web page in IE, *however* the content should be the same.

The DTD merely says that this text is in a paragraph. Unfortunately, most browsers have embraced and extended this to assume that all browsers have the exact same layout. Thus, changing font sizes or types in your browser makes the page look just plain wrong.

Back when the DTD was being followed, *everyone* built web browsers, and all was good with the world. The content was similar, and no matter what the platform, you could still browse. Then came . And . And and all hell broke loose.

Now we're in an IE world. One browser for everyone. Netscape is flailing, Mozilla is close, but MS has free run of the DTD.

If you really want browser wars to heat up, you have to make usre that the browser followed the DTD properly so the display is not driven by the content, but is driven by the end user, as it should be.

Re:w3c's guidlines

[swordgeek]

Why? What's so wonderful about Linus that his homepage should be the de facto standard for HTML? Sure he's done lots of great things in computing, but he's hardly an authority on HTML and web authoring standards.

A little less hero worship, I think, would serve well.

for you browser writers out there

[po_boy]

If it matters, I personally consider this one to be the most important:

1.8 Provide a mechanism to allow authentication information to expire.

Many browsers allow configuration to save HTTP authentication [RFC2616, RFC2617] information ("remember my password"). They should also allow users to "flush" that authentication information on request. For instance, the user may wish to leave the user agent running but tell it to forget the password to access the user's bank account.

Wrong: Most user agents consider that authentication information (e.g., password) provided by a user for a server/realm pair during a session is immutable for the duration of the session.

I don't think I'm the only one that finds it quite annoying to have to exit and restart my browser in order to make it forget my HTTP authemtication information. I believe Netscape and IE both have this problem.

All your dangifiknow are belong to us.

Re:netscape!

[CaseyB]

How about not refusing to draw anything because an element isn't closed?

This is part of the reason that web browsers suck: because people demand that they render broken content "nicely". I would much rather they render correct content properly, than do a half-assed job of rendering everything. "Best guessing" is precisely what leads to the non-deterministic behaviour the original poster complained of.

If malformed content doesn't show up correctly, it's the author's fault, not the browser's.

Re:Head up its ass.

[joemaller]

This attitude about Web design is one of the reasons the Internet went broke. (another one is lame, hopelessly flawed business plans)

Web designers need to remember that Web design is not print. Documents will be changed by users and users should have that freedom. Worry more about information architecture, it's the content that ultimately matters. Design shouldn't just be decoration that viewers have to conform to, design should help viewers to better comprehend the information they're seeing.

What about handicapped users? Or those who need larger type to see? What about celphone browsers? PalmOS? WebTV? Crappy WindowsCE appliances in the airport business lounge?

Web design extends traditional design towards architecture and engineering. Good Web design is flexible. It doesn't matter what the building looks like if it falls on your head.

Strict adherence to standards is the best thing we've got. Letting go of the bells and whistles is better for your clients, your audience, your bottom line and your sanity.

Re:hmmm

[Alan]

Which is nice and good, but the problem is now the web is not driven by content any more. If the web were driven by content, (as a poster above notes) it wouldn't matter that netscape didn't follow w3c standards perfect, or if IE actually was the best browser in the entire universe, because I'd still be able to view every page I wanted to, and get the content therein.

Too bad now that 99% of the surfers out there don't care about content, but instead want their flashy, bullshit "user experience" to make it easier for them to read the bullet points of the information they're looking for. When was the last time you actually *read* a page full of content, that wasn't marked up to hell and back. I'm not saying everything out there should be block text for pages and pages, of course :) Just that that sort of page is slowly dissapearing.

Sometimes I *do* want the web to go back to the netscape 1.0 days (tables! wow!) where everything was grey (well, 1.0 had bgcolor I guess, so pre-1.0 days) when you surfed the web for information, not "experience". If I wanted experience back then I'd go outside and take a walk, watch a movie, or whatever.