Slashdot Mirror
Busting Microsoft's Patent On Web-Polls?
"The patent above appears to claim an automated, database-run webpoll that:
- Has an automatic 'authoring tool' that allows an editor to create and store polls (claim 7), including fields for question text, numbers, and answers (claim 4).
- Total votes and percentage fields for displaying poll results (claim 5).
- A 'votes table' to track users that have already voted, a "totals table" to contain vote tallies, a 'vote handler' that processes votes, and a 'survey index table' that displays either the poll questions, or results, depending on whether the user has voted (claim 1)."
Of course, the voting system has evolved quite a bit since March of '98. Our current polling system, like the patent, uses 3 tables: one table to keep track of the questions (pollquestions), one to keep track of the answers for each poll (pollanswers), and another to track the individual votes made to the active poll (pollvoters). However, back in March of '98, the system was only two tables: pollquestions, and pollanswers, with pollanswers pulling double duty as the place where the votes were counted. Duplicate vote checking wasn't implemented until the creation of the pollvoters table, waaay back in Slash v0.9, which was released in the beginning of 1999, almost a year later.
Still, as I understand it, you don't need to have prior art that's an exact implementation of a patent to break it. I think that as long as enough core ideas of a patent are exhibited in a piece of prior art, then there may be grounds for the patent to be invalidated, but I Am Not A Patent Lawyer, and unfortunately, I won't have time to contact one before this story runs.
So, is Slashdot's Poll feature enough to constitute prior art in this case?
Regardless, we're looking for other examples prior art (the more the better), to try and break yet another example of a Patent That Should Never Have Been. There is always the worry that Microsoft can begin acting in the same fashion as NCR has recently (since the patent has been issued), and start throwing lawsuits at every online poll they can find on the net.
Including Slashdot's.
Update: 03/16 07:24 PM by C :According to CmdrTaco, the poll system had it's earliest incarnations in the beginnings of Slash, way back in November of 1997, however that system wasn't SQL based, it was text file based (with judicious use of various unix tools [sed, grep, wc] to cull the voting and catch dupes). You can see a mention of the old system from this archived story from the earliest days of Slashdot...way back in November of 1997. The first SQL implementation of the poll is the March, 1998 version. And there is even more existence of online polls from Slashdot archives, including an even earlier article which mentions a ZDNet poll in the comments! Just so you know, even though the dates in the comment say 1998, they do indeed come from 1997. Blame CmdrTaco's bad code. ;)
Microsoft files a lot of patents. Microsoft is better known for being sued for infringing on the partner's patents than for suing over patents. Microsoft has sued other companies over patents. Microsoft has been accused many times of using patents as leverage against competitors. I recall a story from over five years ago of Microsoft slipping a clause into its site licensing agreements saying that licenees agreed not to sue Microsoft for using their patents: buy our software, give up your patents to us. I can't find a link though, so you can just take it as a rumor.
One might observe that Microsoft decreased the number of lawsuits it launched as publicity over their illegal and allegedly illegal activiates increased(the several DOJ trials, and the IRS trial.
Microsoft sues over the name of the Python language Microsoft sues over Compression Patent
Microsoft sues over mouse cable patent
FTC investigate Intel
Microsoft sues for access to patent
Microsoft fails to disclose CSS patent to W3C
Let's not forget Microsoft threatening to not release software for Apple's platform and the whole question of patents that Apple brought up. This is a really interesting story, but I don't have time to post more links. A quick google search should get you lots of background on the Apple vs. Microsoft thing.
Microsoft has so many patents they developed an in-house application to search and manage them.
Microsoft doesn't like look-alike mouse, claims infringment
There are also many more cases of Microsoft being sued for Patent infringment. But I won't bother to list them; typically they involve a small company who pitched their product to Microsoft only to be rejected and find that MS released a similar product a year later.
Code commentary is like sex.
If it's good, it's VERY good.
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
Trademarks cannot be selectively enforced, but patents and copyrights can. See Unisys/GIF, Fraunhofer/MP3, or the Cult of Scientology. Oh, the last one was bogus, I just love tweaking those lying, evil, stinking, freedom-hating, brainwashing, murdering, sue-happy motherfuckers.
Hey, I heard that the Scientologists teach pederasty will get you into heaven! Didn't you hear that? Oh, well, I can't remember where I heard that, but it sounds true to me.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
So let's suppose the Slashdot poll box would count as prior art. How do you prove that that system actually existed before April 22nd, 1998? I mean you can easily fake the information in the database, so would Cliff's word count? I have my doubts ...
And generally: How do you prove prior art with software? You could have just written that the previous night to bust the patent? Can anybody shed some light here?
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
Went over to The CGI Resource Index and found a couple that might work:
Zone Coaster's Survey
Version: 2.50 - Released: 05/27/97
This versatile survey script allows you to administer a survey using any form you like. Results are stored in a text file and are retrieved, sorted, and presented to you how you want when you want. Tested under Windows and Unix.
FreeScripts: Vote Script
Version: 1.1 - Released: 06/23/96 - Free - Platform(s): Unix, Windows NT
This script allows people to rate anything on a scale of one to ten. It produces a graph of the cumulative results of the voting and the graph is updated every time the script is run.
Voting on My Site
Released: 02/03/98 - Free - Platform(s): Unix
Voting On My Site is a great add-on to any web page! It will allow you to have your visitors vote on your page! They can choose whether they think the site is excellent, average, poor, etc. It even includes a comment section. This script will email the webmaster whenever a new vote has been made. This script will even display the results in a very nice graphical format.
MultiPoll
Version: 2.1 - Released: 11/10/97 - $50 - Platform(s): Unix
Now run a number of online polls quicky, easily & hassle free. MultiPoll features Auto expiration of polls, online administrating, double vote blocking (cookies), email notification of expired polls, great display, & no time consuming tasks from the admin user.
Poll
Version: 1.0 - Released: 06/01/96 - $80 - Platform(s): Unix, Windows NT
With this script, you will easily create as many interactive polls on your Website as you can possibly handle. It's strange, but people do like to vote for their favorite rock-musician, best baby-formula, sexiest model, or predict results of the upcoming presidential/school board election.
Poll It Pro!
Version: 1.6 - Released: 08/26/96 - $20 - Platform(s): Unix
Tally, Archive, E-Mail results, stop multiple votes, and more! - Poll It Pro was designed for the High Tech sites who are looking to host Online Polls in a easy, manageble way.
The Scripts Home: Voting Booth
Version: 1.0 - Released: 01/12/96 - Free/$30>
"The Voting Booth allows your visitors to cast their vote in an unlimited number of topics and updates the info immediately, giving them percentages and number of votes cast for each choice." Commercial sites are charged $30 for this script.
The Poll Master
Version: 1.3 - Released: 03/17/98 - $99 - Platform(s): Unix, Windows
Handles all of your polling needs: display questions, get input, and calculate results A simple question's file allows you to group certain questions that you wish to appear together or you can access each question individually. Only allows one answer per visitor even with your cookies turned off. Price includes free setup on any server!
Dave Bewley's survey.pl
Version: 1.1 - Released: 04/06/96 - Free
Bewley says, "Survey gathers comments on any number of pages using one standard survey or a unique survey for each page if you like. Designed to be inobtrusive, it knows the page a user referenced it from and will return them to that page once they submit the form."
Let's actually spend our time trying to bust patents that are being used to SUE or RESTRICT other people, huh? Blind hatred or devotion for a company and its operations is just another example of childish groupthink.
Microsoft is one of the better cases in the patent arena; they rarely if ever sue over patent infringement (anyone have headlines showing Microsoft patent suits?).
Microsoft and many other companies hold a vast array of patents for purely defensive position. Nobody else can sue them for those methods, and nobody who is infringing on these methods can sue them for OTHER patented methods.
It is the latter case which keeps Microsoft or other companies from merely opening these methods to the public domain. If Microsoft had no patents, then it would be barraged by all the other companies who DO have stupid overbroad patents. As it is, Microsoft's ace in the hole is in their own patent holdings.
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Back when I ran a RAT(radioactive Telegard) BBS i had polling plugin that would do all of that essentialy and it was realtime(even thoe 1 person was logged on to the system at once) it would take the vote, display it, and make sure the same person could not vote again.... anyone else remember this?
Satan: The Justice department is onto us Bill, what are we going to do.
Bill: Oh Satan, always the worrier. I have a plan.
Satan: A Palm!! Wow, I've got one too.
Bill: Not a Palm you silly prince of darkness, a PLAN to get the DOJ off our tails.
Satan: Oh, what is it?
Bill: First, we need to file for a patent on web based voting and tallying.
Satan: Bill, what does a patent on web based voting have to do with the DOJ.
Bill: Let me finish and quit interrupting.
Satan: Sorry Bill.
Bill: After the patent filing, we will fix the 2000 Presidential election in Florida so that an unpopular republican president will win with the minority of the popular vote but the majority of the electoral college after a contentious legal battle and uncertainty about the punch-card ballots.
Satan: Who are we going to get into the White House that won't detect your plan?
Bill: That's easy, after 8 years of Clinton the GOP will do anything to get one of their guys in the White House and I know a guy in Texas who, well let's say, won't ask too many questions.
Satan: OK, great!! Now we have yet another patent, and we have helped some party boy into the Presidency. How does that solve our problem with the DOJ?
Bill: Satan, I told you not to interrupt. Don't make me BSOD your ass!!
Satan:
Bill: The GOP will be so glad to get control of the Executive branch that they will lead G.W. to get the DOJ lighten-up on our World Conquest, I mean, Monopolistic practices.
Satan: OK, that will work for 4 years. But what about the next president?
Bill: Remember, that little patent we are going to file? Since the whole country is in an uproar about the lack of technology in voting, there will be congressional studies, focus groups, et cetera to fix this problem. Of course the only way to be sure that all future voting is trustworty is to you the Micro$oft Inter-.NET
Satan: Ohhh, I'm begining to understand, and since we hold the patent on web voting, we control the voting!!!
Bill: Satan, you make me proud some times...
Shareware, publicly available in source code format.
# Filename: vote1.cgi
# Version: 3.5
# Author: Richard Ian-Frese
# e-mail: rif@u.washington.edu
# www: http://staff.washington.edu/rif
# Date created: 17-Nov-95
# Last updated: 04-Mar-99
# Tested running: Perl v4.036, v5.003
# Server protocol: HTTP/1.0
# Server software: NCSA v1.4.2, Apache v1.1.1, NT v4.00
While there are a number of organizations (notably Bounty Quest) involved in breaking already issued patents are there any watch-dog groups devoted to looking for "trivial" pending patents? Based on what I know about the process it is easier to stop a patent before it is issued than to try to overturn one after it exists. I think such a group could significantly reduce the number of "bogus" patents out there.
--Chris
Microsoft is obviously holding this patent in reserve for the next time the results of a poll don't favor Microsoft.
For example when /. publishes the following poll:
Favorite OS:
Windows 2000 2%
CP/M 20%
Linux 50%
xxxBSD 50%
Cowboy Neal 75%
Microsoft could have the poll removed because it infringed on their patent.
Then they would embrace and extend Cowboy Neal
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Microsoft have not made any attempts to enforce this patent, they are not part of the brigade who will patent something stupid and then sue everyone who tries to use it. You should be happier that a company like Microsoft who don't pursue stupid patent infringment suits has a patent on such a basic thing. Now if someone else tries to patent something similar at least a company with some financial clout can go after them.
Just because it is Microsoft doesn't nescessarily mean it is bad. The time could be better spent trying to get rid of a patent that is being enforced rather than just a childish drive to pull one over on Microsoft.
Slashdot: Proof that a million monkeys at a million typewriters can create a masterpiece
As soon as someone comes up with a way to make money from a polling system that the company has patented, then Microsoft will go after them. Microsoft is no better and no worse than any other huge public corporation. This isn't about Microsoft, or bashing those ruthless materialistic bastards. It's about creative freedom, or as they put it, "freedom to innovate," which they are in turn trying to prevent from others.
Developers: We can use your help.