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What Should You Watch Out For in an Employer?
sl3xd asks: "It's getting to be the time of year where corporate recruiters are out and about on university campuses, interviewing, and recruiting about-to-be graduates. In fact, it seems that's about all I hear about (other than homework). Since at this point, ca$h is a rather depleted resource, getting a good job right away is a must... I've got debts to pay off (tuition, etc.) The recruiters also know that this is the case for most students; as to the companies that employ them. My worry: I don't want to get hired by a company that will end up making me an indentured servant - stuck working there as a virtual slave, and unable to leave due to financial and contractual constraints (such as non-compete clauses). Not to mention being unable to develop any Free Software if the company somehow shoehorns the work I do in my own time as 'their' property. What should people in my situation look out for? Besides the painfully obvious 'gotchas', what other, more subtle and less obvious things are there to avoid when shopping for a first employer?"
Make sure you will enjoy what you are doing.
I am only 15, and have to work with my dad doing landscaping, Do you know how long that day drags on?
But when I'm doing something I kind of do enjoy, like learning how to do stuff on my computer, or in school learning and using interesting stuff, the minutes fly.
So even if it pays good, if you don't like it, don't do it!
If you could mobilize enough students to talk to the recruiters, ask pointed questions and express disapproval or even walk away tut-tutting, maybe the message will get through.
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Every bloody emperor has his hand up history's skirt [Peter Hammill/VdGG]
beware of any company that has a long winded and worthy mission statement, that calls its employess "associates", that talks of synergy and paradigms. Avoid anywhere that interviews you for a technical job with a non technical HR person (I've been through this - they don't understand what it is you know how to do, let alone whether you'd be any good doing it at their firm). It's a cliche but it helps if you get warm fuzzy vibes from the interviewers - my best jobs have been where I've been the kind of person they want - not the ones where you have to be a little corporate drone/ette. And, as above, avoid any IP and non compete agreements - you don't want to start your working life entangled with legalise and court time.
blazing a trail for mediocrity...
Try asking the interviewer what they feel are the good points and bad points of working for their company. (Especially if they just asked you to specify your Worst Fault!)
Make sure you have a really really clear idea what they actually do. If you haven't, ask. Ask what a typical day might include, or what a typical client might want, or whatever.
Working in a grotty office with people you don't like on a project you aren't enthusiastic about is not a good idea.
No joke, talking to a company's current workforce is very important. While they may feel it would be improper to say some of the bad things of the company (which it is), you will certainly get an idea from their body language and what they don't say. I once had an interview with a huge company's R&D division where the manager interviewing me didn't have any clue as to what her group was doing. After speaking to some of the group's employees, I quickly realized that not only didn't she know much, but the group was in serious trouble. Later that week the company released information that sales would be lower than expected due to poor R&D--specifically the group I was interviewing for.
While an employer may not like this idea, if possible you should consider talking to former employees. One can imagine how some people feel when they leave a company, and talking to these people may give you a heads up--just be careful to ensure the fomer employee has justification for his/her opinion.
Also consider calling the BBB. They keep good records of complaints from customers, and working for a company with unethical practices towards its customers certainly can't treat its employees much better. Other good sources of information about each company should be available online.
Finally, if you are interviewing at a small company, ask about the owner/CEO. Find out what his/her personality is. Do the same with the VP. Those are the people that control the majority of the company's policies, and if the owner's a prick you can be sure that he'll do everything he can to screw everyone over.
Whatever you do, beware of arrogance. That's a sure sign of failure on the horizon.
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
It really doesn't matter that much. You shouldn't stay at this company for more than about a year and a half. Leaving will be the only way to move your salary up once you have experience.
Look for something that can look good on your resume. Take a job coding over one doing support or QA even if it means a pay cut. You'll make that money back within 2 years and the longer you spend working in a non-coding job, the harder it is to make the leap back to coding.
If you're young and don't mind doing it, a job that requires 50% travel can be a good thing. You get a lot of different experiences and get to work with pretty senior people. There's usually a lot of opportunity there, since you often travel to a customer site to resolve a situation that's pretty messed up.
Other than that, try to find a place that looks fun. It's hard to tell from the little tour, but if you can, watch the cube dwellers as you get the tour. If they duck down and get silent as you and their manager walk by, that's probably not a good sign. If there's a pool table and video games in the break room, make of note of whether anyone is using them. If not, that's probably worse than not having these toys. Do people have Nerf guns and other toys scattered around? Or does it look like they need permission to have a plastic plant on their desk?
It isn't that unions are a bad thing, just that unions are not good in a creative environment like computers. It is highly likely that in a company with, say, 50 coders, that a few will be more than a cut above the rest, most will be average and a few will be below average. Not by experience, but by talent, effort, and creative gifts. Why should these 1337 workers make the same as the guy who, for whatever reason, is not as talented but has been there the same amount of time. This is a trade with employees in demand, and talented employees demand top dollar, and rightfully so.
Honestly, unions can become very invasive. In a creative field like computers, you should earn what you're worth. Unions are better left to fields in the labor trades, where workers can easily be replaced, and working conditions can be truely harsh. (and I don't mean flourescent lights!!!) This is where it becomes worthwhile to turn over control to a more powerfull organization such as a union.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
Persuading the would-be interviewer that they want to hire me, surprisingly, never appears and never appears to be a problem. I just take charge and talk and ask questions about what they do and what they want people to work on, and somehow people magically get the impression that I can do it.
But going in with the attitude that I'm interviewing candidates for my time and attention seems to convey a very capable image.
Just make a list of questions and start prying. What productivity metrics do you do? What languages, coding stanards, source control systems, and code review methodologies do you use? How do I get a quitclaim concering work I'm contributing to the FSF? (This phrasing is a great way to get into the topic of IP rights agreements while putting them firmly on the defensive if they want something more draconian.)
Remember that early in the interview process is when you have the most freedom to negotiate and make demands. The fellow who got a Lego desk didn't wait until he was filling out health insurance paperwork to ask. Their ability to deal with a slightly oddball request is also a good indicator of (and precedent for!) how flexible and accomodating they'll be in future.
How fast does the company pay expenses? (If they're interviewing on campus, you're talking to someone who's trvalling, so they'd know, and it's a good judge of how much the beancounters respect the staff.)
And especially, ask them about what they want you to work on. If you ask lots of questions up-front and don't worry about looking ignorant, by the end of the interview you won't be ignorant and you leave them with the impression that you're an expert on the subject. This has worked for me countless times. I have heard both directly and via back channels people being impressed with how much I knew about a subject that I didn't know anything about going into the meeting. I just spent the meeting asking progressively more sophisticated questions.
More interview questions for you to ask them: How much of is this project like something you've done before? What's the legacy support burden? How is the team organized? Who are the people I'll be working with? Who will I be reporting to? (If they aren't sure yet, attange to meet all of the possibilities.) What's the project design so far? What's the process for changing it when I find something stupid?
Oh: and, of course, never take a job without having visited the sitem and talked to the people you'll be working with. Campus recruiters lie. Or don't know the truth, which amounts to the same thing.
You also want a company that will offer you some training. And who will not claim to own all that training once you leave.
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Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Your first job is not about using what you've learned, it's about finding a place that will teach you how to apply it, and how to play office politics, and the politics of projects in general. All of the best (most productive, least bug-producing, best technical leaders) programmers I've worked with had jobs early in their careers that exposed them to people who helped them to increase and refine their skills and talents.
That's why I think job fairs suck for people just getting out of school. You're unlikely to find a metor at a job fair; they're the people who are too valuable to send out to recruit (though I've seen some exceptions at highly enlightened companies).
It's better to use your friends, family, favorite TAs who graduated ahead of you, etc. to help you find a good environment to really learn your craft. But I work in Silicon Valley, where most people have a very broad network to draw on. Some places don't make it so easy.
Good luck.
Either you've got waaay more debt than I do, or you're estimating your financial needs incorrectly. I have a pretty decent amount of debt (of all sorts - student loans for 5 years of expensive college, bank loans, credit, regular bills, money owed to friends, and I'm largely supporting my fiance), and I'm not making that much since I work for a university. Things still work out pretty well financially - I have some stress from it, just enough to keep me on my toes.
So, my advice? If you're going into IT of any sort, don't sweat the money. You'll probably make enough money to handle the debt and have a life, even if you won't be able to afford a new sports car immediately. Decide what you actually want to do, and how you want to approach that.
For that matter, keep in mind that, as I recall, a lot of student debt can be held off if you go to grad school, and a Master's or doctorate in CS leads to a lot of different kinds of careers than a BS (not necessarily better, but different).
Most of all, my advice would be: don't sweat the money too much. Look at what you want, and what choices now can help you get there. If there's something about a company that makes you feel they'll hold you back from what you want, hesitate only a little before deciding to ignore them.
--Matthew
One of the things that completely blows my mind among my fellow co-workers, many of whom are fresh college graduates who have racked up student debt, is the unwillingness to take a total look at their financial situation.
Yes, it's great to try to get a job that will pay you lots and lots of money. But there are other ways to take care of your debt, including just watching where you spend your money. You'd be amazed what you can save when you spend some time in the kitchen with a cookbook. And you probably don't need the latest PDA or digital camera, either.
I got a good job, as did my co-workers. And yes, they're slowly paying down their student debt. But by the time they've reached the halfway point, I will have cleared mine. All that interest they'll still be accruing will be history for me.
Take a job you enjoy, that won't lock you down, and that hopefully pays good, but don't forget to keep basic financial management in mind. Rice and beans never hurt anyone, and there are a million different ways to prepare them. It's not the most appealing way to save money, but it's not like this is forever.
I interviewed with a startup that I'm convinced will not be in buisness in 3 years (still 2 years to go, but i've not been keeping track, in my mind the odds are against them) Find out what kind of finincial situation the company is in. If they are a start up, do they have the capatol to stay in buisness? If not a startup (selling a product), how profitable are they? If they are very profitable (Microsoft, Cisco...) figgure out if they can keep it up. (Juniper networks seems te be better then cisco???, while nothing stands out as a replacemnt for microsoft, but thay can change too) If they are not number one in their field, what are their plans to become number one. Do you belive their plan?
Most companies go out of buisness due to management incompitence, not technical problems. Make sure you trust management to make the right decisions. Remember the right decision is often one you won't like (and they may not like it either), and sometimes it means deciding on the wrong thing now becuase of incomplete information instead of waiting until you know enough to make the right decision. Management that is nice isn't always good enough to make the company succede. If you get stock, or options, this is important, otherwise just make sure they can pay you. If the company ever misses paying anyone, look for a new job, emploiees are the first the be paid if there is any money at all. The only company that cannot be driven out of buisness by anouther in 5 years is goverment supported. Most competing companies are not enough better to do so however.
Most important, convince yourself they will accually pay you for the amount of hours you are willing to work. Personally I'd rather make half the pay I could make, to work 40 hours a week instead of more. My time is worth more to me then they will pay me, I've considered going part time in fact, and haven't only becuase I like the money I'm earning. If you want to live like a king for the few hours your allowed home and not asleep you can work long hours for a lot of pay. Of course you will need to pay a housekeeper and your laundry. I prefer to do that myself, but it means less hours I can work. (If I was paid overtime it wouldn't pay for me to do my own laundry or clean my own toilets, but I'd probably do it anyway just because bad as those jobs are I like the change of pace) There is nothing wrong with working 120 hours a week so long as you know the sacrafices you are making for your pay and are willing for them - you better have a goal for the money you make though.
I have been to interviews where they told me flat out I was expected to work 80 hours a week. They pay was much more then I'm making now, and several people there were willing for it (all of them were investing everything in hopes of retirement - but look what the stock market has done in the last year and it makes more sense why I wasn't willing for that gamble)
Make sure you interview your boss. i've worked for micromanagers, and wouldn't recomend it. For a short time (I transfered out in 4 months) it was okay, but for longer I couldn't. I've worked for managers who had a weekly 3 hour meeting, managers who had 10 minute meetings (and managed to say just as much), and managers who never had meetings when I could attend. The latter sounds like a dream, but it wasn't - My boss didn't see me for weeks one end, and it was hard to get work, hard to know where the company was going, and hard to do my job. Make sure you can get along with your boss. I've worked for excellent bosses with horrid upper management, but my boss shielded me from those problems and since I got my pay check I was okay. A lot of what makes a good boss is personal, so even if I had a sure fire way of finding the perfect boss that doesn't mean it would work for you.
I'd reverse your question and answer what you should be looking for. If we're talking college recruitment, your best bet is probably to sign on with a large, well known company. Looks great on the resume, and typically, very large companies won't stick a grunt like you with a non-compete unless you're getting into something pretty strange. (BTW: Companies aren't in the habit of giving their intellectual property and non-compete forms up front. They wait until you've committed, to make it less painful to back out.)
What do you end up with? A very nice company name on your resume. I agree with the other poster. Expect to leave your first job after a year and a half. Chances are, you're going to be unhappy with the page, and based on common knowledge (and a recent SAGE survey), pay increases in IT happen by switching to another company -- not doing an excellent job for the company you are working for.
Of course, you should take your first job seriously, but if it isn't the "perfect" company, that's fine. In fact, its probably better if your first job isn't a place you'd like to stay. Hurts your pay and your resume.
The company that seems to have a much greater than average fear of being cheated, stolen from, etc. by employees and/or customers is the one that's going to screw you every chance they get.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.