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Nokia and Loki Together on Linux Terminal
barrettlight50 writes "Nokia released news that they plan to distribute Linux games from Loki Software with their up and coming Media Terminal due out this fall." I'm hearing rumblings from people who have their hands on this box, but am still waiting for more meat. What remains to be seen is if Nokia will embrace the Open Source model, and let us hack the hell out of their box. Here's hopin'
which makes this different.
The XBox will be a high-end solution that appeals to hard-core gamers.
It is clear from the specs that Nokia is not going after that market. The development is also cheap, they are mostly reusing existing technology, much of it without any license. So they are probably going after low price.
I think they might succeed, a settop box which can also play games on the Quake II level, which are acutally pretty impressive to a non-gamer, at a price that is sufficiently low that you can buy one just to see if it is something for you, might open a large market.
If it looks good, is silent, have an easy to use shell, a TV recorder no worse than a VCR, a couple of bundled games, at a price below US$130, I just might buy one for the convenience. Even if it is slower than my ancient PC. And even though I'd probably not use the browser.
You could always just point to a TiVo - it has a pleasant, friendly user interface and is of course Linux based.
The Xbox/Media Terminal comparison is deeply incorrect.
This is first and foremost a Cable/Broadband access device (look at the supplied libraries - lots of HAVI, lots of MHB stuff, but little gaming-related stuff. Look at the Nokia Pirates and Parrots game)
Yes, it will play games. So do the OpenTV and cable set-top boxes - but they aren't terribly good because that is not the prime function of the system.
It's optimised for streaming video and web access. This is a sounder straegy than the reverse (build a games box, make it a web access platform later as the deceased Dreamcast, PSX2 and Xbox teams plan(ned)). High-end consoles tend to end up in otaku household who already have those things.
This will end up in houses where people don't want a computer: it allows Nokia to own a portion of the market that isn't online. As such its an evolution upwards from set-top boxes of the past - the open sourcing of it also makes sense in this context. The closed set-top boxes are usually very good at decoding MPEG streams but useless for any rich services - open sourcing means a million developers working out neat home automation and video gadgets (and yes, games, but not of a Quake level. Stones might work).
Given a million eyeballs all business problems are trivial.
-- need more time?
There's been a lot of media hype about Linux in the news for the last several years, although very little that the average 'guy in the street' gets to hear about, or finds very relevant. :)
Now, with this on the way, we find a big brand name that many seem to identify with 'cool' (can you count the number of young teens chasing the latest images for their Nokia phones, and identifying that with the brand 'Nokia'?) that's leveraging Linux.
If it sells well, which, given Nokia's marketing engine, it should do.. Just think.
When people say "Linux, that's that hard to use unfriendly system, isn't it?", you can point to their easy to use box by the TV, and politely let them know that they're already using Linux...
Once people get the idea there's nothing to be afraid of, then a lot of the FUD from Redmond counts for naught.
It's a far cry from beating Windows on the desktop, but it's certainly stealing a march on MS in getting market penetration of product.
Bravo, Nokia. I'll be watching this with interest.
Malk
Sentences like and let us hack the hell out of their box scare the crap out of any corporate manager.
:-)
They're responsible for getting a product out the door according to their spec.s, not your's. To do that they have to retain control.
Try coming up with sentences like: We have a plan to explore the limits capabilities of your system. We would like some information, collaboration and coordination (at least a corporate contact.)
We will inform you of any security deficiencies, report on the actual capacities of the system and make general comments and contributions to expand the potential uses and markets of your system.
That is far more likely to get you on-side as an unpaid resource rather regarded like something stuck to their corporate shoe.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Says you.
If the xbox is sufficiantly hardware-hackable, I'll be first in line to buy one. Knowing Microsoft, they will probably attempt to shutdown anyone who posts hardware hacking information regarding the machine on the web.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
well, it could be wrong, or they might be using (GASP!) a different 3d card. nVidia cards are fast, but isn't ATI radeon also supported? Those are supposed to be good cards too.
"We would rather have a small part of a large market than a large part of a small market if we had used proprietary technologies." is the quote.
I think this could be cool, but Nokia is obviously thinking that they can make money out of services to the consumer, and sales of the terminal, as they won't get royalties from each game created this way.
What is the difference between this and Indrema? Well.. contrary to what the older slashdot-story seemed to suggest, I don't think this is really an Playstation2, Nintendo and X-box-competitor. It's more like they are selling an Internet-appliance, that can also play some decent games. If it has good software, and some good functionality, it might work
.I didn't notice any pricing info on Nokia's site - did I miss it?
:-)
Anybody know where the PVR software is coming from, and whether they're going to charge a monthly fee for the TV schedule? Of course it should be easy to hack it to get data from tvguide.com
Typically, console hardware is sold at break-even or even loss pricing. The intention is that the hardware manufacturer makes their money back by charging publishers a fee for every title sold. If Nokia intends to make their money on the hardware, network connectivity or another service, and if they intend to leave the publishers to do as they please (and if this thing has good 3D - they don't name the chipset) it could mean a ready supply of game titles, which would help push the system into market.
It seems the site for their "development network" reagrding the "Open Standards Terminal" is here. TheRegister ran a story the other day about Nokia's callout for linux developers to help code for the platform (I though it was /. worthy, but then anybody with a clue reads TheRegister already).
On the surface this would seem like just another company trying to milk the free software community of gratis code without giving anything back, but it could also be extremely important. Remember that Sony and Microsoft are both creating "media terminals" with the very clear goal of usurping the PC and becoming the main devices for accessing the Internet. And there can be no mistaking about their motivation behind this - to take charge of and close off the agents with which people access and handle networked information, so that they can regain the total control of it they need further their ultimate goals (their bottom line - at any cost to our network). Remember Sony's words: "We will block you at you PC".
I don't think it needs to be said again how profoundly dangerous this process is, and the enemy knows it.
It would be dangerous to try to paint Nokia as an angel of grace in this regard - cellphone handsets are hardly open platforms, in fact I know of few devices so infected with fuckware. But at least this move looks genuine, and while it may seem like an underdog Nokia should not be underestimated (handsets are the largest sector of consumer electronics, and Nokia the market leader by a long shot). Certainly, this looks more realistic then anything that Indrema put forward, and by not targeting games specificly it is in a better position to not have to go head to head with the big two (leaving their legions of evil to hack at each other) and target a market where Linux is more useful. I think that we could do worse for ourselves than support this effort.
Look at the specs, people. This is a machine that is comparable (only just) to the gaming PCs of about 2 years ago!! It has a Celeron 366, a TNT/Voodoo2 equivalent 3D card, a maximum resolution of PAL (720x576) standard, which most Americans can't use anyway and have to deal with NTSC (640x480) and a maximum frame rate of 30fps with some rather strict rules on color usage. There isn't even anti-aliasing to smooth out the bleeding on the TV.
Fact is you will be NOT be getting the latest games, more likely remakes of Gameboy stuff or Quake 1 re-releases and more importantly you will NOT be making a dent in XBox, Gamecube or PS2 sales.
Nokia will not be able to make any money from the direct sales of these boxes either (they would have to sell for more than the vastly superior XBox or PS/2 for this to happen), so expect to get them leased to you for about $50/month or more (along with a digital TV connection). Nokia is simply USING the open source community as a group of people who can provide gimmicks to sell their digital TV boxes.
So, don't expect to EVER see these on shelves but expect some cable guy to drop one on your desk and the games will be much the same distraction you get on the current Nokia phones - a gimmick and a long way from the real purpose of the box in the first place, which is to pipe an encrypted stream of media to your TV, decoded by a proprietary smart-card all for the monthly hit to the cheque book.
To sum up, this box WILL end up costing a substantial subscription fee, probably will never belong to you and the instant you stop paying they will come and take your slow TV-game box away. It isn't a games machine, it will never be a games machine and is going to do nothing to MS/AOL/Sony/Nintendo's bottom line.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Nokia have stated that they'd rather have a small
slice of a large market than all of a small market. This implies that the media terminal will
have to comply to "open standards" and also be
clonable.
This box could be our only hope against the
lock-in hell of Microsoft or Sony/AOL.
I hope Nokia "gets it".
"You can catch flies till the cows come home, but wasps are a totally different kettle of fish."
Given that Indrema open sourced their stuff, can Nokia use that in their product?
Thus, while most Linux users might not be so interested about buying a separate game console, this is great news for all Linux gamers who want more games.
Some have argued that game consoles are usually sold with loss, and real profit comes from games. You should remember that this is a digital TV box, and Internet terminal, so it has much more value in itself than any pure game console. Also, many Linux users who would not be so interested about a game console, might be interested about the digital TV receiver, digital recorder, DVD player.
While the announcement answers my questions about Loki, it still doesn't tell which current Linux games will be available. I'm also little worried about the openness of the system for installing new software that has not been packaged by Nokia, as Nokia probably doesn't want to be responsible for customers messing up the system software.
It's amazing to see this many stupid americans in one thread writing stupid things about a great product and not getting it. It's a digital set-top box. It's a digital TV-recorder (tivo, etc). It's a internet@home TV-box. It can also play games that are a few hundred times more advanced that the usual digital set-top/cable boxes.
Oh, yes, it's going to be sold world-wide it seems.
(Yes, since I'm writing anti-american stuff in here I'm going to get modded down - you know, it doesn't matter what you post as long as you write "America rules!", but write the truth and you'll get modded down in an instant .. *sheesh*)
it's in my head
The story says the games will be built in when the system ships. I'm sure there will be ways to add more though, and idiots manage to do that with cell phones, so it shouldn't be too tough.\ =\=\=\=\
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The even have their own OSI approved license. NOKOS, the Nokia Open Source License.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
You can always alias a single ethernet port and then plug your broadband modem into a switch with everything else. It's not quite as secure (or efficient) as using two ethernet ports in your gateway but it works just fine.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Considering its rather low performance the box will have to come out at a lower price than the PS2 or the yet to be released xbox. I think the big problem with this box are that its benifits are not that great compared to a celery based computer of the same speed and they are entering an arena where you have to sell your hardware for no profit in order to get anyone to buy it.
One key to marketing this would be to stress the "everything included out of the box" aspect and also to sell the reliability. Convince everyone that because all the machines are built to the same specifications that the drivers and OS are much more stable on that machine than a general OS on a general machine because they were able to debug against thier hardware longer.
Honestly though I have to give this box a thumbs down. Old computers in new boxes don't sell without a great gimmick and I don't see the great gimmick in this.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Therefore it is important that Nokia produce something decent in its initial release. Not only will this drum up enough sales to assure the life of the product but it will motivate people hack around with it.
This is the main problem with expecting open source developers to develop code without owning the hardware.
If Nokia wants to pique the interest of the open source crowd it has to release a kickass product (hardware & software) first and open up the source at that point. It's no good dumping some buggy code on ostdev.org and expecting people to do much with it.
Okay this is slightly off-topic, but whatever happened to the ZapStation?
... I gotta wonder: just what are these "media terminal" people actually thinking?
... what? ... like this Nokia thing is gonna actually see the light of day?
Last I'd heard, they were taking pre-orders and then -- suddenly -- nearly doubled their pre-order price -- from something like 499 (599?) to around 799 or 899.
Moving more on-topic
None of them -- with the sole exceptions of TIVO and Replay -- have made it to market. Zapstation, Indrema, and
You gotta hand it to TIVO and Replay -- they're coming up on 2 years old, no? I don't own a Replay, but I have a couple TIVOs. Despite the fact that the hardware is aging somewhat -- it's an amazingly forward-looking product.
The fact that it came out nearly 2 years ago (more?) just boggles my mind. I suppose the market conditions, as they say, were a little more favorable for "visionaries" two years ago (although one could debate whether or not the visionaries were actually "visionary") I'm amazed that something like TIVO -- which still really hasn't caught the fire of the mainstream, although the word itself has most definitely entered the cultural vocabulary -- made it off the drawing board and found itself in actual living rooms.
I don't begrudge failures like Indrema and (perhaps) the ZapStation, but I do get a little miffed when I read their product literature, actually want to buy the product, and then find out that not only is the product not out yet, it probably never will be and (in the case of Indrema, at least) has already gone belly-up.
I really hope the Nokia product makes it out of the gates. But with a Celeron 366 and a 20 gig hard drive -- you gotta wonder: why?
The XBOX is definitely the power house. Say what you will about Microsoft -- evil empire, deceptive business practices, short sighted managers giving stupid speeches about open source -- they're committed to it, got the developers to commit, and will deliver the goods.
And you bet, I'll be first in line for the XBOX -- assuming that they can overcome the PS2 problems with supply the first few days of release.
But Nokia? Dudes, just give me a price, a firm date, and I'll be there, too. But I have my doubts.
DVB is already up and running - one example is the UK's ONdigital service, so it would appear that I will be able to junk my current set-top decoder and replace it with a Linux-based one from Nokia at some point. Of course, if its doing the MPEG2 decoding in software its a blimming good job they plan to use a seperate RTOS for that part. I have enough problems playing DVDs with stuttering from background processes time-slicing, so I wouldn't want to hit that on my set-top.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
DVB is a digital broadcasting standard using MPEG2 that is used in Europe. Most, if not all free-to-air stations here in Germany are broadcasting it over sattelite (stationary 60cm dish is enough) and cable. You get DVD quality resolution and sharpness.
;-), but thats changing fast).
linuxtv.org is developing / has developed a driver for a certain group of cards that allmost all available models are based on. A tivo like VDR application has been written. There even is a legal way to watch PayTV channels via a standard smart card interface.
It works great.
Nokia is cooperating with them in developing an open API. (As I understand it the linuxtv people had a working system and Nokia approached them, to work with them on that project. So it's not a case of a company allowing others to participate, but a big company joinign in. I think that is a good sign.)
So I have build my own Tivo (not available here yet) like device really easily thanks to the great work of those people.
With LCD and remote it is a real appliance, usable without any great knowlege about computers. (Just the beta status of the software
With the onboard MPEG2 decoder chip, it puts not a great load on the CPU and DVD playing is also possibele without a glich.
Yeah! I'm very happy.
Marcus
...into porting/creating apps for this device? I mean, the issue of piracy is a huge deal to companies, and with an OS-based OS (ugh) like Linux, controlling the media is going to be a definite challenge.
I'm VERY exited over this machine though. Nokia certainly has the money to design, build and distribute something like this, and considering their success with the IP-xxx firewalls, they have more than zero experience dealing with electronic appliances. "It just might work!"
But again - are they just 'testing the waters' to see developer/community interest, or is there really a machine/dev-kit (which is a whole other issue) and a business plan? Is Nokia really committed to delivering a new console/appliance?
sedawkgrep
Is that a salami in my pants or am I just happy to be me?
Uh... MS is pretty obsessive about that digital-signing thing. I suspect they'd probably do everything they possibly can to lock out the unauthorized.
/Brian
Just what We Need!
How am I supposed to play all these games and make time to fight the Evil Empire of Redmond as well?
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Go to the page referenced, there are 2 PDFs, one on the unit, the other on developing games on the unit. Looks cool, if it really does do everything (PVR, Loki, Linux, MP3s) I may have to get one.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
I must admit to feeling quite optimistic about this whole thing, from reading the details on the Nokia site. They say they are planning to open the hardware specs, and I can't really see how they could be planning to prevent hacking if this is what they end up doing.
I posted a message here is response to the announcement of the Indrema console all those months ago, expressing my doubts about the future of the machine, but at they same time saying that if it did fail, I would make damn sure it was not because I did not support it. I tried to support it, but it failed anyway. I feel so much more optimistic about the Media Terminal. They have something that actaully looks like a working prototype, rather than just a mockup. They have actuall hardware specs which fit with the photographs of the back of the prototype. They have documentation for their IO API, and a developers site with real information on it. Most importantly of all perhaps they are a decent sized company with the technical and financial clout to build a machine that works.
I just can't wait to get my hands on one. Looking forward to having a WorldForge demo running on the beast before the end of the year.
Ok, so looking at the specs, its not the fastest kid on the block (366mhz celeron or better, unspecified 3D card, etc.) but it will function like a tivo AND I can play soldier of fortune on it? Where do I pre-order?
Uninnovate - Only the finest in engineering.
Agreed. Here's hopin' we get back to that paradigm.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
This would be a great way to get the cable companies to recommend this box, because it could theoretically replace a lot of normal telephone usage and give the cable companies the edge in providing services to home users. Not to mention the conveniece of paying less than 10 cents a minute to Europe or Asia...
Nokia doesn't provide vapor, but when this thing gets out.... I can see the image of a little kid that asked, his parents to gimme a PS2 for christmas, and when he opens, his new NOKIA media terminal, he finds that IT SUCKS. It has inferior, processing power, to run newest games well. But looks good in eyes of the parents... Until they see the face of their little kid, crying out loud, GOD why have you forsaken me.
The reason I think this is not vapor, that Nokia has put some reputation, behind this. They will bring it to market, even if they would LOOSE money, after change in conditions, and not do well in the market, since their reputations is more worthy than 1G$. Well after they find out it doesn't do well, they would slowly reduce the availability. Compared to other things that failed, they have money, so they wouldn't drop out of project if it failed, not this late. Perhaps redefine, and upgrade specs a bit, and come 2 months later. But not give up. Too much in stake when they have putten that website there...
Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
Look at the politics involved:
I'm sure there's more but I can't think right now. In a way - and I don't mean to troll or invite flames here - I think that it's still a hype thing. I didn't find out until recently that TiVo runs Linux. It's not something it wears on its sleeve. The OS is invisible.
Mmm
Claric
--
There's no problem that cannot be solved with a suitable amount of high explosives
Could this be the new Indrema?