Slashdot Mirror
The Open Source Evangelists Respond
EconomyGuy writes "Looks like the some big players all got together to respond to Microsoft's recent claims about the GPL. CNet is running a story about it, or you can read the response right here. If names like ESR, Linus, RMS, and Perens can all agree on something to say, then Microsoft's plan to split the community just might back fire on them."
O'Reilly: Okay, let's not be too rough with Microsoft here, I still sell a lot of books about Microsoft products.
Perens:Yes, when you're not being a parasite on the free software community.
Torvalds: Come on, guys, we're going to try to be positive here. Instead of focusing on bad things about Microsoft, let's look at good things about Linux.
Stallman: You mean, "GNU/Linux"...
This has taken a long time.
There is not much more that Microsoft can throw at this community. In the years that I've been reading slashdot. I've seen the average age drop. The amount of MS Serf spy's increase. I now have a desktop I don't have to configure with VI. I've enjoyed Oracle on Linux. I fell in love with Java on Linux. Seen Linus go from THE guy on a mailing list to Information Systems Rebel Icon. I've seen OS2 die... Then come back. ( useless interjection ).
Microsoft has accused the community of being a bunch of hackers and failed. Reported Open Source as being buggy only to have software developers around the world installing Linux looking for a stable plateform. Microsoft has givin the vibe that Open Source is not suited for security applications. When Net Admins have favored the security of Open Source for years. (BSD anyone?) Do i need to say anything about benchmarks? This is now the last real volly. We are no longer cannon fodder.
So is that it?
The Open Source sprit wins after decades of floating around?
Not really.
Now come something interesting... Can we get the implications of using open source libs in company applications. What about taking a Function out of a opensource application. Is it okay to just put "Stole from [ProjectName]"? These are the rules that need to be understood by companys. How will using opensource java classes affect my customer? With out the anwsers to these question outlined more then "free like beer" companys will stay away. Lets remember that the Homer in us thinks "Hmm Beer" for about 30 secs after hearing the word 'beer'.
Just my 2 cent's
Last one in jail is a fascist.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
What did you expect them to say? That was the proper P.R. move at this point. They were expecting us to be a lot more brash than we were.
By the way, I am brought in to talks with Fortune 100 corporations through my job, so those CIOs and CEOs are being reached - not that I agree with the assertion that they are the only important ones. IBM representatives are doing some of that CIO lobbying, as well, as are a number of the other evangelists. Maddog, ESR, and O'Reilly all make regular appearances in executive offices.
But this is not where the real battle lies. It is on the intellectual property law front that we will win or lose. P.R. efforts are important to that, but let's not let them distract us from the real goal.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Please, Bruce, explain how a license that explicitly says that others can copy your work for free is compatible with a business that sells software.
He didn't say it was. He said it is compatible with business. If the only business involving software development that you can imagine is one where you sell individual copies of your software, then that's your problem.
So yes, one type of business doesn't work very well with the GPL. So what? In the space of business models, most of them don't work for one reason or another. That doesn't mean those reasons are incompatible with business. It means you need to think of another model.
If I'm going to give it away, I'm going to give it away no strings attached.
That's your choice. I like the "so long as you keep it free, too" string to be firmly attached, myself.
The enemies of Democracy are
Bruce... I have to tell you, I nearly had tears in my eyes when I read the first few paragraphs and then slid that down to read the signers.
It's not because the people who signed that are important; if you invited everyone to sign, I think you'd see an outpouring of thousands of developers who had written one or two apps, artists who worked on icons or themes for those apps, and documentation managers and translators who polished those apps into professional solutions. As well as leigons of sysadmins, programmers, and a growing base of "average joe" users who only use open source.
It was proof that we are in competition among each other, but not locked in battle. That we are teams each working hard for the best score, but who can go to a pub afterwards and tell stories together.
Years and years ago, the big rivalry was vi vs. emacs... but (other than grabbing new users), the feel regarding the "war" was that it was a big joke; everyone was aware that they were editors we were talking about. The topic was something that two good programming partners could always razz each other about "Yeah, I ran it through awk/sed" "You know, if you were using a real editor like emacs...". The same went for the Apple/PC/Amiga/etc. groups - sure, they would argue you to death about why their platform was best, but at the end of the day, they didn't really care.
Somewhere along the line, as open source has expanded, we have gotten a thin but vocal layer of religious proponents. This group takes the new "wars" (KDE/Gnome, BSD/Linux, BSD/GPL, deb/RPM, distro1/distro2) as an excuse to call the other side every name in the book. Raw hatred is exposed, profanities are screamed through ascii or html, and ocasionally, real world attacks are made (posting addresses, etc).
But, this letter shows that when all is said and done, we can go to that theoretical pub together, and raise our glasses high to toast each others works, be they technical (KDE, Gnome) or philosophical (GPL, Open Source). It is the mutual respect from the heads of the various camps that moves me... it is their gentlemen nature.
And it puts me in mind of other groups of gentlemen with differing ideas who all banded together - one group in America in the late 1700s, another who got together at at Runnymede in 1215, another who followed a simple man named Ghandi, even a certain thirteen who were around during 30AD... all had a few things in common. They gave to the people around them, empowered the general populace, and they all changed the world.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
A more concise version would be "Dangerous, my ass!" -- but that would be either redundant or inaccurate, depending on where the tattoo goes.
...when faced by a common enemy? Whether as hackers banding against the evil forces trying to quash open source, one city's sports fans against another, nations, or multinational alliances, it seems we can only get over ourselves enough to cooperate when we're threatened. Make no mistake, I support every word of this statement and am amazed by the signatures on it - the policies and strategies espoused by Microsoft are a threat to us all and need to be taken seriously. I just wish we could get together more often on things that weren't as directly threatening, with less venom and bile directed at each other (Perl vs Python, Emacs vs Vi, Gnome vs KDE, Red Hat vs. Just About Anybody, ad nauseum), instead of waiting for Big Evil Threats from Outside to remind us that we're all in the same camp.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Red Hat 7.1 Standard Edition: $39.95
Micro$oft Windows ME: $162.85
RMS, ESR, and Linus agreeing: Priceless
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
[ . . . ] when Jim Allchin attacks Linux, he's not going after Linus and the kernel people. He's trying to reach about a hundred CIO/CTO's who can force their company to use Win2K servers on their boxes. All of MS's anti-Linux speeches are designed to get a very small audience to hold the line on Linux growth within the corporation. Of course it pisses you off, but that isn't the point
There is a lot more to it as well in the following paragraphs.
Point Being, the attack and response should not be against each others egos, but for the hearts and minds of the people who really count, who make the high power decisions. I note that
Late Tuesday, Microsoft responded to the open letter. "We appreciate the dialog on this issue--it's exactly the type of discussion Craig was hoping to foster," the company said in a statement.
Somehow it feels like MS is trying to try to trip up the evangistas into being too brash, by seeming to be so reasonable.
And utterly un-repentant.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
What they really meant to say was:
"Microsoft it's time for you to grow up and stop being a bunch of whiney bitches. All we hear from you is: 'Our product is better, linux sux'. You don't hear people from the Linux community bashing Windows do you?"
p.s. linux 0wnz m$
I am currently not obliged to divulge that information as it might compromise the agents in the field
Open Source Advocate Has Yet To Rebut Craig Mundie
Jeff Parns considers himself a model for free software advocacy: helping out at installfests, answering questions on the Central Kansas Free Unix User's Group mailing list, working in his spare time on a user-friendly graphical interface to cron. Why, then, has he yet to write a long-winded essay rebutting Microsoft exec Craig Mundie's recent remarks about open source?...
Honestly, these Microsoft speeches are really a windfall for open-source advocacy windbags. They're so utterly foolish that responding is like shooting fish in a barrel. (I'm talking about the "Open source destroys intellectual property!" stuff, not the part about it making for a lousy business model, which happens to be entirely true.) The Eric Raymond / Bruce Perens line went over as long as nobody had actually put their theories to the test, but it must be a tough sell to convince companies to follow Netscape* and Eazel into oblivion.
* Yes, Mozilla is _vastly_ better in the 0.9 release. I know that. But in the meantime, the company has still seen it's market share go from nearly half to zero.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
I'm curious to see which if any "mainstream" news carriers pick up this story. Craig's letter got coverage in the NYTimes. Will this letter appear beyond CNet, /.,and ZDTV? Maybe with AoL/TW weighing in against M$ CNN might pick it up.
This is what saddens me in the FUD war. When computer science visionaries speak, geeks listen. When M$ speaks, everyone hears.
"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
--Benjamin Franklin, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
I am personally very impressed with the professional representation that has been made within this letter. What we need to do, as open source software users, is to band together and to work towards opening the eyes of our companies CTOs and CIOs.
This does not mean bashing the products that many of us are forced to use in our daily work days. This means to carefully offer up solutions to problems using Linux/BSD in a professional manner. Simply put, advocating the use of open source and free, as in liberty, software requires calm and rational reasoning.
One great avenue of advocating Linux/BSD is to form a users group in your area. While it is not an easy thing to do it can be used to greatly open the eyes of the people that attend because they have an inkling of interest. You would be surprised at the number of, "WOW! Linux can do that?!" that are prevalent at a LUG meeting.
If you choose to start a LUG be professional about it. Plan meeting times and agendas, put together thought out plans of action. Impress your members and they will mention it at their offices. The more your LUG is mentioned around their offices, the more likely that someone with decision making powers will show up.
The most important thing is to stop with the bashing. So what if Windows crashes, everyone already knows that. So what if Windows has security issues, people are already used to that. Show people that Linux has fewer security issues, when configured properly. Show people that Linux does not require regular reboots. Stop doing this by exclaiming the shortcomings of Windows. Do this by showing the strengths of Linux.
As users of solid, open source software we should work from a common vision. One of growth through education and hard work. Instead of the rabble-rousing vitriole that many of us spit out today.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?