Agenda, Not Hidden

A nameless reader writes: "There is a very favorable and detailed review of the Agenda VR3 at O'Reilly's oreillynet.com site. Unlike many previous reviews, this reviewer is a developer himself, and appreciates the benefits that a full Linux/X windows on a PDA can offer to a knowledgeable user. He also has obviously done his homework, and provides a lot of useful supplementary information." The "Consumer IR" port is one feature I predict will soon mysteriously end up in a lot of other similarly-sized devices as well. Funny, weren't we just reading the obituary of Linux on the desktop?

Comments

Re:no market for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, unlike Indrema, they are shipping out product.

There may be no "use" for it as far as regular Joe Consumer is concerned, but the business value of this product is staggering. Imagine using this as a UI for various business processes (like how RF guns and laptops are used today).

I have already found several applications for my developer addition device, and am working out a deal for purchasing quantity of their "consumer" product wholesale.

Business models

[Paul Komarek]

Everything you argue is based on how many Agenda units can be sold. One would hope that Agenda has forseen that they aren't going to sell a unit to every human on the planet. One would hope that Agenda has made a good effort to realistically predict the size of their market, and adopted an appropriate business model including appropriate margins on each device sold.

If they haven't done these things, they are a bad business and will fail, no matter what they are selling. If they have done these things, I don't understand why they would necessarily fail in one year. As far as this goes, it's worth keeping in mind that something like 50% of new businesses fail within the first year or two. At any rate, I am in the niche market that wants a hendheld computer to do on-the-spot network analysis, Python scripting, and LaTeX compsosition (using a keyboard, of course). Therefore I can assure you that a powerful palmtop does have a market, and that market is not on drugs.

And what do you mean by a "full-fledged personal computer"? Do you mean something like an Altair, TI 99/4A or C64, Amiga, Mac Classic, 386 or clone, NeXT cube, Athlon, or Alpha? I see no reason to insist that palmtops fall at the bottom of this list of "personal computers". I'll take as much power as I can get at a reasonable price. As far as this goes, the Agenda appears underpowered compared to the Casio E-125 Cassiopiea, which is definitely a mass-marketed palmtop running PocketPC. If PocketPC doesn't allow ssh sessions, that's a weakness, not a strength.

-Paul Komarek

Think ahead

[PD]

The agenda might be dead in a year, but eventually, we're going to really want these tiny computers to run Linux and all our desktop software, including the compiler.

I don't know about you, but my life would be greatly improved if I could pack up a tiny palm-like device, a head mounted display, and a little keyboard, go off to the beach, and get a day's work done there. I could do that now with a laptop and a stack of batteries, but there's this small problem of posture. Even a laptop requires a chair and a desk of some kind, and it's hard to get an even tan unless you're laying down.

Linux advocacy: VR3 framework for the Desktop?

[joq]

" At all times, applications can be launched by selecting one of the soft buttons at the bottom of the display. On the far left is the Agenda logo which brings up a menu of applications. The other buttons launch applications directly, and by default bring up Contacts, To Do, Schedule, Notes, the Calculator."

Why couldn't Linux developers either in Redhat or some other distro make things this simple for people who're interested in Linux for the home desktop segments? Some of the difficulties surrounding "point-and-click", "GUIville" when it comes to Linux and the average non geek user make using Linux intimidating which is one of the reasons the competition with MS as a home solution is a losing one.

No one wants to tar -zxvf foo.tar.gz ; cd $foo ; ./configure ; make ; make install its too cumbersome and difficult for cluebies as opposed to something like MS' self installing executables. So while looking at the other article today which states the demise of Linux as a desktop, I stop and wonder what the hell are the developers thinking? Create a "HOME ONLY" based version of Linux without all the fancy source distributions for average joe users and market, market, market it for crying out loud.

Instead of focusing on promoting the "coolest new trick" on the Linux OS' be advised Mr. Developers, that most geek know what Linux is capable of, and while most time and money is spent marketing these new things, some of you need to go back to the core of it all and promote ease of use if you want people to start using Linux. If this VR3 is as easy to use as the article claims, than someone at one of these distributions (Redhat, whomever is left) needs to take a pad, pen, and sit down with these guys and get it right, once and for all.

Re:Linux advocacy: VR3 framework for the Desktop?

[LordNimon]

What are you talking about? Isn't this what packages are for? Is it really that hard to type "dpkg -i foo.deb" (or whatever the rpm equivalent is)? Or use a GUI frontend that does the equivalent?

Unfortunately, not every package adds icons to the desktop and/or "start menu". What good is it to install the app if you don't also get an icon to launch it?
--
Lord Nimon

Re:Linux advocacy: VR3 framework for the Desktop?

[steveha]

I am a Debian user. I don't use dpkg to install new applications; I use apt-get. Even an ordinary user can learn to type "apt-get xmms" if he wants to install xmms.

I also love aptitude; it is a text-mode menu-based utility that lets you manage packages. If you don't know that you want xmms, you can use aptitude to look around and see what packages are available, and you can figure out what you want to try.

(By the way, looking around through aptitude was how I discovered that the classic game rogue is available for Debian! I always wanted rogue and never knew where I could get it, and then I basically stumbled across it one day! I love aptitude.)

There are also GUI-based tools. There is gnome-apt, which is not as usable as aptitude yet. There is also the package installer used for Progeny Debian, where you choose things like "Development Tools" and you get a whole bunch of stuff.

I love Debian; it is so easy to manage the packages.

steveha

Re:Linux advocacy: VR3 framework for the Desktop?

[jchristopher]

What are you talking about? Isn't this what packages are for? Is it really that hard to type "dpkg -i foo.deb" (or whatever the rpm equivalent is)? Or use a GUI frontend that does the equivalent?

YES

Look - yes, that's too hard! Newbies do not want to memorize command line arguments! What's a 'package' anyway?

Do you see my point? If the user says it's too hard, it's TOO HARD. You, as a geek, have trouble understanding why the CLI command above is too hard. GUESS WHAT - the non geeks have trouble understanding why we can't make it clear that you aren't making it easy enough!

Re:Linux advocacy: VR3 framework for the Desktop?

[Arethan]

I couldn't agree with you more.
The biggest problem with linux is not the lack of software, it's the complexity to operate it. Gramma isn't going to run linux because she doesn't even know what this "Windows" thing is. She just knows that if she pushes the button on the box, then in 2 minutes she can check her email and turn it back off.

Create a user friendly distro of Linux, and applications will follow. The key is to make enough apps to make managing the computer easy.

Microsoft has a huge lead of most opensource developers, and I don't mean manpower wise. I mean layout wise. Go download 5-10 open source applications and look at the interface. Try to learn them all to about 80% efficiency within an hour or two. Now if you were to go out and buy 5-10 name brand applications for Windows and try to learn then to equal efficiency, you'd find it much MUCH easier. Why? Because Microsoft, IBM, and all of the others employ people that do nothing but design user interfaces! They design it, and then have a group of users test it. They collect feedback, and then they try it again with a new group. After a few iterations, they have a really easy interface for their application. They've cut the learning curve in half. All because they put more effort into making it look pretty rather than making it do something.

Anyways, enough rambling. The point is, Linux is too complex for the average user. The average user wants to be able to put the disc in, and have the OS ask them if they want to run/install the application. It's sad, but that is exactly what Linux will have to do in order to go mainstream.

Oh please

[Sc00ter]

"Based on their projections of unit sales of 500,000 and 750,000 units for this and next year, the savings in licensing expenses could be in the millions of dollars."

PocketPC (aka WindowsCE) JUST hit 1 million units (http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-6004696.html ?tag=mn_hd and they expect this obscure device that's just black and white with no email app to sell that many units in a year!? Not in this lifetime...

--

Alan Cooper

[Fencepost]

Anyone doing much user interface work (particularly for consumer-oriented devices) should read Alan Cooper's About Face and The Inmates Are Running the Asylum.

One of the main things he recommends is developing a "persona" that you're developing for. Never say "Well, the user will understand this," you have to be able to say "Alice the 45 year old real estate agent whose only experience with computers is a browser-based home listing service using nothing but drop-down lists will understand this." By focusing your development on just a few personas that cover (or are close enough to) your target audience you'll find it much easier to target your development.

-- fencepost

Linux Desktop, Good or Bad??

[FortKnox]

Funny, weren't we just reading the obituary of Linux on the desktop?

I also found this amusing. And if you read the comments about the death of the Linux Desktop, all the die-hard linux users agreed with it. And now we have the die-hard linux users praising Agenda for using X.

And now I figured it out:

Its the "Lemming Syndrome." Its not whether the article good or bad about Linux, but, instead, whether the author is a Linux advocate (or well known in the Linux world) or not. Look, a Linux World author says that the Linux desktop is dead. And like a pack of lemmings (or the pied piper, whichever you prefer) you follow the crowd and admit to its faults. Now a Linux Developer explains how the advantages of the desktop, and everyone is back believing the Linux desktop will dominate the desktop market.

Now, on the contrary, if someone at MS was to claim the Linux desktop was dead, everyone would definately point out everything Linux does better than Windows and the few that would state some of Window's advantages would be modded down as trolls (probably like this post will be).

No need to flame me, I know what you'll say. Just think about it, please...

Re:Linux Desktop, Good or Bad??

[theblackdeer]

well, linux for the desktop might or might not be dead - but at my office, where MS-out-of-the-box is common, we're about fed up with licensing fees, and MS hoops to get software on all our desktops. we're a growing dot-com (i KNOW you've seen our ads - they're everywhere) and there's like a trillion new employees who need a computer every week. this is largely what has caused us to switch to Mandrake for our entire sales staff.

all orders are placed through a web browser, orders are accessed through a web browser, and KDE is enough for the point-n-click sales staff. they don't really care what desktop they're using, as long as they can do their job.

and this is what might make linux continue to win - the sales staff, otherwise known as Joe Consumer, using linux at work. just like so many other joe consumer's using Windows at work, finding that they are comfortable with it, and saying "Geez, i'd sure like to do the same stuff at home as i do at work." the linux boxes at work are all configured, stable, and installed - there's a handy admin to come around and fix it IF something goes wrong, or doesn't work. but the response from our sales floor has been remarkable. they like it. so how long until they're looking at linux as "just another tool, i want one at home too"? i think as long as linux is free from most of the MS hassles, we'll see business use continue to grow. as business use grows, joe consumer in his/her office job will see the value, because they have to, and decide that it isn't such a bad thing. it won't dominate the world, but it isn't dead on the desktop. the sales staff just taught me that.

Somewhat un-Linux sounding...

[dstone]

From the review..."Probably my biggest concern is with the amount of regular RAM memory available -- 8 Megs is awfully minimalist, particularly when you're running a full Linux and X Windows environment. And when the VR3 runs out of memory, applications can slow to a crawl, or the entire environment can fall out from under you... I really think 32 megs should have been the first design target, particularly how constrained some applications might be..."

Now if that was describing a Windows CE handheld, we would all scoff and and say "of course it's a RAM hog -- you'll need 32 megs". But this is Linux. Yikes. I know that includes X and RAM is getting cheaper and all, but somehow that spirit just seems un-Linux-like to me. Just an obversation...

Something to keep in mind

[VertigoAce]

Before I begin: I've been a VR3d developer for the past six months. So this might be a little biased.

The VR3 is not intended to compete with PocketPC. Who could expect a $180 device ($250 for consumers) to compete with a handheld in the range of $400-$800? In the same way, the VR3 is not meant to compete with Yopy. This is simply a very flexible low-end PDA.

Also, Agenda has not been too clear about their plans, but their PR person mailed out the following schedule for those who are interested.

Week of 5/21
Agenda VR3 ships with Linux QuickSync software

Week of 6/4 (our goal)
Windows QuickSync software available for download

Week of 6/25
Agenda VR3 ships with Linux & Windows QuickSync software (plus e-mail, fax & other added software)