Verizon - No DSL Over Hybrid Copper/Fiber Lines?

bziman asks: "Speaking of fiber, I've been waiting for DSL from Verizon here in Northern Virginia for more than a year now. Their excuse is that even though I'm well within the normal range limitations (I'm only 9,000 ft from the Central Office), I'm not eligble for DSL because half of the line between the CO and my house is fiber optic instead of copper, and they haven't figured out how to run DSL over fiber optic yet. I can get no meaningful answers from Verizon, so I turn to the combined wit and wisdom of Slashdot." Note that it's the hybrid nature of the lines that's the problem, as Verizon already provides DSL for it's all-copper customers. I would think, that customers with all-fiber connections could just be wired directly into the Internet...or is this assumption a fallacy?

Comments

DSL is currently a copper thing.

[Mr Z]

My understanding is that DSL is a signalling protocol for copper lines, so they're correct that a hybrid fiber/copper feed won't work unless the copper-to-fiber bridge contains the DSLAM (Digital Subscriber Line Access Multiplexer) front end to convert the analog DSL signals into digital bits to go over the fiber.

Right now, DSLAMs like to live on racks in a CO, not one of those grey boxes by the side of the road where the copper-to-fiber conversion is likely happening. To run DSL, you need copper from you to the DSLAM. Hence the problem.

Presumably, whatever they use to bridge the copper over to fiber could be adapted for tranceiving high-bandwidth DSL signals as well, but it sounds like right now that's not in the cards.

That's my 0x02 cents...

--Joe
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G.lite

[Mr Z]

My understanding is that G.lite is a less computationally intensive version of DSL, and so it can be implemented on lower cost equipment. It also makes some compromises so that you can have a "splitterless" setup (you don't have a voiceband/DSL-band filter where the phoneline enters the house). The result is a lower-bandwidth DSL which is suitable for consumer applications.

G.lite still uses the same frequency bands as normal DSL, though, from what I recall. It may be slightly narrower, but it's still well outside the 300 Hz to 3300 Hz range that voiceband uses, because it's supposed to coexist with the household voiceband service on the same line. It's also supposed to coexist with voiceband modems and FAX machines. (Some of the performance tradeoffs in G.lite apparently have to do with the harmonics coming off of the things it might have to coexist with, including changes in loading due to people picking up handsets, incoming ring signals, and so on... In a non-G.lite setting, the splitter handles most of this. G.lite is supposed to make this easier on J. Random Consumer, again at the cost of some performance.)

Given all that, I'd be surprised if G.lite was any friendlier to fiber than regular DSL.

--Joe
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YMMV, but...

[banky]

We had the same problem (Fairfax, VA). What was our solution? We yelled and yelled and yelled. We bitched and moaned. We called them and complained over and over.

We got DSL very soon thereafter. Somehow the technical issues vanished, although they claimed a top speed of 780-something because of them.

Now, I titled this post YMMV, and I mean it. I don't want people to reply "But that's not possible!!!!!" over and over. It may very well not be possible; my suspicion is they (Verison) were lying when they said it wasn't possible (meaning, the lines in our area were just fine, etc). It wouldn't be the first time I'd caught them in a lie. What my point IS, is don't just wait. Make a stand, or just get a cable modem and tell them to fuck off.

A real answer.

[trippd6]

You've gotten a half baked answer from them, and everyone one this thread:

The real answer is this:

Most likely what is going on, is your being serviced by a "sub-station". Thats not the real name, but I don't know the real one.

Basicly what they do, is put a mini-switch out in the feild in a envormentaly controled valt, either below ground, or above. So you are most likely being serviced by a "sub-station" (not the real name). Its not a fiber/hybrid.

What SBC is doing (Southwestern Bell, Pacbell, Ameritech, etc) is putting NEW "sub-stations" out in the field where people are to far from the CO, or where they are already serviced by a"sub-station" . These are equipment cabinets, in the field that take the copper, and put it into a DSLAM to provide DSL services, and into a switch interface, to provide phone service, and then backhaul it all with fiber.

SBC is spending something like 5 Billion on this project, and so far nothing has come of it, other then I have seen alot of these above ground cabinets pop up.

Anyway, I was quite annoyed that no one gave a straight answer (that was moderated up, I didn't read EVERY message) although I'm probably to late to get moderated up.

-Tripp

Hotels?

[coyote-san]

They might have put in a "(DSL?) hotel." That moves some of the gear from the CO to the other size of the fiber, but it requires money, space, money, available bandwidth on the fiber, money, equipment, and did I mention money?

Ironically, the odds of getting this are inversely proportional to how far the fiber runs. If fiber runs to your block (or building!), there's not enough potential customers to justify the expense. But if there's hundreds of potential customers, the phone company can be fairly confident that it can find customers to justify the investment.

You're out of luck, here's why.

[ka9dgx]

DSL pushes a high bandwidth analog signal down your phone lines. It relies completely on the absence of telephone company equipment between the DSL modems on each end of the line.

The phone company expects to only deal with 8,000 samples of 8 bits each per second, and when they multiplex the signals for 24 lines into one (to get 23 more phone services through a single pair of wires), then sample everything at that rate. They don't care about DSL, they only expect to provide voice service, and engineer appropriately.

If you were willing to pay for the labor and materials and increased expense of having to run completely new lines... they would still probably turn you down, because they are only interested in delivering voice service, at the aformentioned 64kbits/second encoding.

--Mike--

Fiber equipment info/ Pairgain info/ etc.

[mclaugh]

hmm, where to start? I work for Verizon, in engineering no less.
PairGain is a company that makes several products, all of which seek to expand existing copper facilities. Their most commonly used piece is called a Digital AML, which allows you to take one copper line and provide another line. This is predominantly used in areas that are not "feed rich", and in urban areas are the default used when a customer orders a second line.
The ADSL problem w/ fiber is simple- DSL technology (as has been previously posted) is meant to utilize the unused bandwith that copper wires can carry, in a higher frequency than the human ear can hear.
Finally, the fiber/ copper problem you were fed over the phone. Chances are, when you are quoted such a thing, Verizon went and installed a fiber remote hut, which is used to extend feed out from the CO. Fiber is brought out of the CO (usually in two different paths, for loop redundancy) to a hut or ManHole, and then copper is run from that hut for feed. When this is done, it is to provide more feed pairs in a certain route (which is how Verizon tracks fill rates and such, by distribution areas and routes that they determine). The most common technology used w/ the fiber huts is LiteSpan, and LiteSpan is not a DSLAM. Newer LiteSpan shelves can provide DSL facilities, but it would be impossible to find out the specifics of a LiteSpan unit unless you knew your local Outside Plant Engineer.
Before you despair, there is one caveat to the fiber hut- there's copper run from the CO to the hut as well. We are REQUIRED to run copper, b/c there are special circuits that we can't provide over fiber facilities- the best example is the alarm circuits in the hut, which must be on fiber.
OK, last thing- customer service, and how to get what you want. When you call, you receive an associate. Ask to speak w/ their supervisor, they have to put you through. From there, be prepared to complain loudly, insist that you know there are copper facilities there- you may cite lotto circuits and security circuits. Tell them you are prepared to call the PSC (Public Service Commission) or call the Verizon President's Hotline (which really escalates things). Ask them if they can give you your local Engineering office phone number.
They may tell you the copper feed portion at the hut already has circuits that preclude yours from receiving DSL- it is true that we can only provide one DSL circuit in every 25 pair of complement of copper wires, which is due to DSL's inherent limitations.
I think that answers all the questions- hopefully, seeing the post a day late, some will still check this and understand!

Fiber at Harbor Point, Boston

[rneches]

I used to live at a place called Harbor Point (formerly Columbia Point) in Boston. It used to be a "project" neighborhood, but a few years ago, a big realestate tycoon bought it up and turned it into a semi-luxury apartments and townhouses.

When we moved in, my roommates and I decided to set up a DSL line for out local LAN. Just like you said, the line test put us within the range for DSL - about 300 - 200 feet from the CO. Unfortunatly, Versizon (then Bell Atlantic) had aparantly added a coil of fiber inside the CO. That's right - according to Covad, there was fiber inside the CO, being used roughly as a patch cable. Thus, the whole Harbor Pont development (5000+ units, if I remember correctly) was unable to get DSL from anyone. Because of a patch-job that Bell Atlantic woudn't fix, Covad didn't have access to, and Flashcom... well, Flashcom didn't seem to be able to find it's butt with both hands, so they responded by opening three new accounts.

However, our tale of woe had a happy ending. Before Bell Atlandic owned up to the fiber thing, Covad came and installed a modem, and the thing couldn't find a link. So they came and installed it again, this time drilling more holes in our walls and breaking the phone patch box so that we didn't have a landline for a week. When the whole thing finally turned out to be impossible, we called Covad to give them their modem back. Covad told us that the modem belonged to Flashcom (which didn't sound right, since Covad was in charge of the actual installation). Flashcom told us that it belonged to ConcentricDSL. Concentric had no idea who the hell we were, so we started over with Covad, and repeated the cycle. After getting the runnaround again, we put it up on eBay, got $200 for it, and treated outselves to a nice dinner.

--

sorry

[eltardo]

I work in Verizons DSL division and honestly, you're probably stuck. If there is fiber anywhere on the line between your home and CO, no DSL. They're not going to run new lines, but they *MIGHT* switch you to an all copper pair if you manage to talk to the right people and there is one available. I've had it done for a few customers before, it's a right pain in the butt though. What people don't really know is that VOL (Verizon Online) is *NOT*, I repeat, *NOT* Verizon the phone company. They are two separate entities. Therefore, when we (VOL) try to get the phone company to switch a customer to a new copper pair, well, we have to jump through hoops, do a dance and pray to the BroadBand Gods. Depending one where you live this may be an option(If you're in NY, forget about it). The only problem is finding someone within Verizons mass of idiots that knows how to do so, and to be honest, it's worse then finding a needle in a hay-stack(I'm Mr. Pessimist today). Your best bet is to maybe do what I did and get cable. Best of luck.

Re:I think you're screwed

[djoyce101]

Not totaly true. Lucent make the DSLMAX boxes. They simply take a fiber, or ethernet, or ATM line, and supply it to upwards 64 coper lines. My Apartment complex uses these boxes. They take a fiber link from the CO, and supply each apartment with DSL service. works quite well because the coper link is only about 50 feet.

How DSL works

[autocracy]

DSL is sent as a higher frequency radio signal.Ever try to make radio signals work over fiber? It doesn't work!

The converter between copper and fiber focuses on the relatively narrow spectrum that voice communications are in and discards DSL as mere noise, thus not sending it over the fiber. The two solutions are to move the CO (not gonna happen), or by a converter with a greater range (also not going to happen - at least anytime soon). Look for a flavor of DSL known as G.lite - I think it fits into the range of the converters and will run over fiber.

So you're a karma whore, eh? For the right price, I'll be a karma pimp...