Slashdot Mirror
Capture MPEG From TiVo
cworley writes: "Andrew
Tridgell devised an ethernet
for the TiVo a few months ago, but decided not to post any of his vide
extraction software, in
fear of a Napster-like backlash against TiVo (some of the legal implications
were directly discussed in a
recent slashdot interview). But, today,
MPEG extraction has been released in the TiVo underground, although rough
around the edges, it allows the user to view TiVo recordings on any PC in the LAN in real time, as well as save the mpeg2 recordings on your PC." Update: 06/07 05:40PM EST by C : As of a few minutes before this update, the thread regarding this software was pulled from the forum in question. From the message: "We wish for this topic to be 100% dead on this site form this point forward. Thank you." As many users have already said in the comments, there are serious implications with the relese of these tools, that TiVo will have to deal with. I am also disappointed, but not surprised, that the forum thread was pulled.
Well, there is one major restriction for now: IO. Tivos don't have any fancy IO ports on them by default, just a serial port. That leaves three options: Building the ethernet card hack (or buying it) which isn't cheap, physically removing the hard drive and reading it on a computer (no mfs drivers yet, AFAIK), or streaming the sucker over a low-grade serial port (think weeks).
Also, except for a few boxes where you can get a bash prompt without opening it, all these methods void your warranty.
"'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
Well, if the damage is already done, and your tools are so much better than Nick Hull's, why don't you release yours (well, tridge's) now?
"'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
... watching how commodity appliances based on free software evolve and mutate beyond the intentions of their creators. While this is obviously good for the consumer, this kind of activity seems to be broadly percieved as threatening to the producers of these toys. I wonder if the real threat to free software systems in embedded roles is the building legal backlash; eventually the costs of defending engineering choices is going to offset the advantages of choosing free systems to begin with and purely pragmatic people (accountants) will decide that it's not worth the effort and time. Is this what groups like the MPAA, RIAA and the proprietary software houses are counting on?
Gotta agree with sorphin on this one. Beneath the cheers of all the people shouting about what a great thing this is, there are a handful of folks who understand the probable ramifications, and are truly dismayed that this software was released.
Sure, it's useful, and a cool thing to be able to do. But having this stuff out there will likely have negative repurcussions that could have been avoided if things had been handled properly.
You can scream your "Information wants to be free" battle cry at the top of your lungs all you want. It doesn't change the reality that the people who own the rights to that information DON'T want it to be free, and will fight to maintain control.
My bet is that the public availability of this software will end up being a lose/lose situation.
My roommate just got digital cable, which came with a really incredible cable box. It's a Scientific-Atlanta Explorer 3100, which comes with a smartcard slot (PCMCIA sized), s-video output, 2 USB slots, 2MB flash memory, 10MB of DRAM, a 54MIPS Sun MicroSparc RISC processor, DES decryption and a damned fast upstream connection. When we first flip to a channel, the video is digitally distorted for a second or so. (You know, like low-quality RealVideo.) This is because it handles video in an MPEG format. So this has got me thinking -- surely there's some way that I can take this native MPEG video format and export it, presumably via USB, to a hard drive or CD burner or something.
So what I'm wondering is if the same good hacking that's enabled MPEG captures from Tivo will permit capturing video from these fancy digital cable boxen.
-Waldo
Or, you could just use a Terapin device which can record to CD-R
Here's a link to their store
---
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
The strange thing about video is that I simply don't have the patience to watch the same show again and again like I would music files. Probably has to do with the fact that I can't do much else if I'm watching TV shows, whereas with music, I'm driving a car, reading a book, surfing the net, doing my dishes...
Bandwidth also is an issue... in fact, I didn't even realize this until I put it down here, but - Music files you can download (albeit painfully) through dial-up. Movie files? full length MPEG2 (DVD) movies are 8 GB!... MPEG4 you can bring a movie down to 700MB. When was the last time you downloaded an entire linux distribution over DSL? Takes a while, doesn't it? Basically, DSL users can spend a couple of hours downloading one movie provided there's a reasonably fast server... but in instances of P2P, who's going to open their bandwidth so that 10's of not hundreds or thousands of people grab their movies? Ok, I may do it from home for about a day just for kicks, but I wouldn't be able to do it from work (where most of us have faster connections).
cuz it's gonna soon as the media finds this, and of course, it hits TiVo... all i can say.. Thanks alot chris.. (cworley).. now the 'vcd kiddies' will strike, piss everyone off, make tivo act, and there goes my hobby.. all i have to say, is if/when tivo acts, you'll see *why* we didn't release the tools we have.. (which, i can tell you work probably better than nickhull's)..
sorphin
Chief #TiVo Elitist
This is interesting, because the party that owns the copyright on the encrypted streams, and the party that encrypted (Tivo? Or the Tivo machine?) are different.
The owner of "Hogan's Heroes" can't sue you under DMCA for cracking the encryption, because they broadcast it without encryption. Their content doesn't have a "technological measure that effectively controls access."
Tivo can't sue you under DMCA for cracking their encryption, because they don't own the copyright to the stuff being decrypted.
It's legal.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Besides, how does it matter if you extract video from a DirecTiVo rather than a stand-alone TiVo hooked to a DirecTV receiver? It's the same content, and the same copyright holders. Distributing extracted video would be copyright infringement either way.
:P
You're preaching to the choir, man. In my mind both are the same as pulling it out over the analog video connection, reencoding it, and distributing it. I think that legally there's no difference.
However, I don't expect the CEOs of various companies to see it that way, because I have low opinions of their intelligence.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
and one step farther back for the entertainment industry.
Over the past... I dunno, say 20 years... the media and entertainment industry has been hyping up and trying to plan the deployment of their ultimate wet dream: on-demand pay per view for everyone and everything. This would mean total control over viewership, programming, and revenue for the entertainment industry... the whole thing about choosing stuff to watch when you want to watch it is just a red herring, cause ultimately you won't have everything at your fingertips at once even if they could provide it that way. It'll just be what they want you to see. Hence, just like today, you might have a choice of when you want to start watching a movie (except you'll have a greater flexibility in choosing the start time), but just like today there will be days when all that's available to watch is "Battlefield Earth" if they so choose to do that. (That's a great scheme, to play one movie all day on a PPV channel no matter how bad it is) That's obviously a bit extreme of a scenario, but I assure you their intentions are not much different from that.
On the other hand, the public does not want pay per view, and on-demand service is not enough compensation to deal with such a nuisance. Furthermore, people want access to EVERYTHING at any time... hey, I wanna watch that old episode of "Growing Pains", get it NOW. I'm in the mood to watch "The Godfather", so bring it to me. Or, perhaps I want to see the Redskins win the Super Bowl in '87 again. And I want to see the best commercials from 1993, just to be nostalgic. This is what people want... and they want it in decent quality, and they don't want to pay a lot to do it. Unfortunately, this would kill broadcast television, the home video market, and the video rental market all at once - hypothetically, anyway. Just like Napster is killing radio, CD sales, and music stores - it's not really, but some people think the potential is there.
This just hastens the massacre on the way. TiVO itself is bad enough... but now people will be distributing those episodes of "Seinfeld" on the Internet for everyone to watch at anytime. It won't make a squat of difference at the moment on ratings, but once people have a taste of something like that, they continue down that path with or without the help of the entertainment industry. So, it's up to them to either provide services that would improve on what's available in the underground, or to die a slow miserable death trying to fight the oncoming rush of things bigger and better.
Of course, I don't support the idea of media being FREE, but then again, if there's not a convenient and practical way to pay for it, I'm not gonna deny myself the enjoyment of what's out there...
.. than having a computer with a TV-in port?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
now their hardware is hackable and can be used to distribute video around a house (but could it stream video from another computer in the house - say a CD-jukebox all burned with MPEG movies?), so instantly people will forget about earlier ("Ooh, I've lost the functionality to record what I am currently watching" story).
Anyway, so what is the "PCI style" connector on the TiVo? Is it a PCI slot in reverse (connector instead of slot)? If so, then why not just get a PCI ethernet card, so some jiggery with the interface (turn a connector into a 90degree angle slot) and use that?
F*CKING BT-GOATSE.CX-INTERNET threw me off after 10 minutes online and then not let me back on again. 30 redials, all with engaged tone. calm ... calm ... calm ... the glass has done nothing wrong.
All multimedia should be set free.
I agree. The only property worthy of the name is tangible property. If you cannot put a fence around it or put chains on it or lock it up in some manner, it does not belong to you. Once it is released to the world, it belongs to nobody or to everybody. There are tens of millions of copies of Windows and MS Office being used freely around the world right now and there isn't a damn thing Microsoft can do about it. The Brazillian goverment in now using patented AIDS drugs to cure AIDS victims without sending a cent to the patent holders. Information (ideas, music, software, inventions, writings, etc...) wants to be free. There is no stopping it.
IP laws are unnatural and IP owners must rely on powerful police states to force people to comply. Only big-brother type governments can enforce them. The only way to defeat IP laws is to copy it all and download it all!
You may ask, "What are artists, inventors and programmers going to do for a living?" My answer is that the system must be changed. What is everybody going to do when AI and advanced robotics replace everybody? We need a system based, not on labor, but on everybody being guaranteed an inheritance in the earth, a piece of the pie, an estate if you will. What we do with our piece is up to us. Such a system would ensure a totally free market the way it was supposed to be. No more slavery, no more sucking up to those who exploit us. Real freedom.
Demand Liberty! Nothing less!
As has been said before, The reason napster was so sucessful was that it enable the average idiot to establish a node on a P2P network and share files.
I hardly think that the same people who could install napster are going to be able to hack napster, get linux up and running, etc - its too much trouble for your average idiot.
As an aside,
"The software is functional, but has limitations that we hope to remove in the future.
Direct viewing can only be done on a Linux PC."
Now all you people who whine about Windows Media, Realmedia, Quicktime, et al. can have your day of glory.
>Big difference here, the DirecTiVo units store the pure, original, never-converted-to-analog, mpeg2
Agreed. The MPAA will go nuts if DVD quality bootlegs are marketed or distributed.
My point is: the problem occurs if someone distributes. DirecTV/MPAA is not going to take people to court who view the extracted mpegs on their computer, or make VCD's for personal use, ore any other "fair use" application... They're only concerned about distribution.
TiVo can keep it's hackers and DirectTV/MPAA happy at the same time by spying. It's easier to implement (than shutting hacking down entirely), and harder for the hackers to detect, and the only ones that will care are those very few with distribution in mind.
TiVo can, for example, randomly pepper the mpegs with your encrypted serial number -- no effect to video quality, impossible to differentiate from mpeg data. If a bootleg mpeg is being distributed with your serial number... you're busted.
I can think of many ways for them to implement similar schemes. Low overhead (for their CPU) and impossible to detect.
If they clobber the hack altogether, then you immediately realize it, download your backup, and you're back in business. Then, sombody will hack the program guide... which is illegal because it is encrypted... and TiVo will loose the revenue stream they've been enjoying from their hackers.
Which method do you think TiVo & DireTV will prefer?
It's a no-brainer...
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
I changed my mind. That hinking doesn't make sense.
Tivo as Napster doesn't fit. They are not the medium of exchange, they're the capture device.
There are a lot of capture devices, including Hauppauge's PVR which also captures mpeg. Nobody's going after them.
TiVo loves it's hackers. They bring in money... not much but they need all they can get.
DirectTV's DSS hackers steal service, TiVo's hackers pay for service -- I don't think TiVo want's to change that arrangement and make it hostile.
If DirectTV has a problem with DirectTiVo's (which the ethernet hardware and software don't work on, anyway), then I think TiVo will be able to convince them there's more value in "spying" on their customers (which is legal by the DirecTiVo eula) than there is in shutting them down.
Shut the hackers down, and they'll find a way around the service altogether, and still be extracting mpegs.
Spy on the hackers, and you'll be able to pinpoint who's distributing MPEGS from DirecTiVo's -- if anyone does.
Plus, there is no DMCA-style encryption for the MPAA to claim "beyond fair use".
I've changed my mind from that post.
Logically, this will be a win-win situation.
Look how many folks responded in slashdot that they're going to buy a TiVo today!
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
In any case, it's legal to record broadcast TV. That was settled long ago.
I don't get why these people were so worried. I mean, did they think people would be afraid if people could (oh my gosh) record television shows? Oh The horror!
Seriously, hundreds of millions of people around the world already have the ability to permanently store video... it's called a VCR. I mean, fuck I can get then tapes for ten dollars nowadays.
I can't believe that a place calling itself 'the TiVo underground' would voluntarily pull stuff, without any threatening letters, and ban the discussion of said tool on their site. I mean, what the fuck.
Recording television shows. Oh, the horror!
(By the way, seriously cool hardware hack! I am sexualy aroused.)
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Big difference here, the DirecTiVo units store the pure, original, never-converted-to-analog, mpeg2 files that are recorded on it... A truly beautiful thing, and if hacked DirecTV would be in direct trouble from then networks, the RIAA, and everyone else under the sun...
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
Tivo Community have shutdown the thread because its going to screw up the relationship between the hackers and Tivo (which was good until now - oops!)
Anyway - the link for the software is here at 9th Tee.
Have fun!-Rob
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero." --Anonymous
"Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
This is a reposting of cworley/s comment on the TIVO discussion board.
***
Here's the scenario:
The code is released, TiVoNets/TiVo's sell like mad.
DirectTV gets wind, and tells TiVo to "shut them down".
TiVo complies: nightly dialin's delete files that aren't supposed to be there, add software that changes the MFS, add encryption to the MFS data (making any hacking illegal).
This drives the hackers underground. The honeymoon is over. TiVo treats its hackes like DirectTV treats DSS hackers.
The TiVo hackers subvert and make the program guide free.
TiVo looses it's revenue stream.
Everybody looses.
***
Until we find away to make information "free", without removing all incentives to make the content in the first place, these technologies will continue to be surpressed in the legal system. Simply saying "screw 'em" achieves nothing except to make the guy saying it feel all cool and defiant.
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
Now this, unlike the previous TiVo story, should have been put in the Upgrades category!
sulli
RTFJ.
A big congradulations to all the people in the Tivo underground forum. They are true hackers and have done some really cool stuff to the little PPC linux box.
Still, with a plan, you only get the best you can imagine. I'd always hoped for something better than that. -CP
My Dr. Who collection thanks Mr. Andrew Tridgell. Now I can precisely edit those separate half-hour episodes into complete episodes. This rocks!
Well, your fingers weave quick minarets; Speak in secret alphabets;
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Uninnovate - Only the finest in engineering.
1) A commodity-grade CPU and mobo, like a 400 Celeron (or equivalent Duron, I don't care). About $100.
2) A TV In/Out card that also contained a tuner (support having two tuning circuits, but lets assume only one for now). STB lists one at $129.
3) A network card (many of the most promising software expansions of the system would be dependant on transparent access to the internet). $20, max.
4) A hard drive. Maybe use some dockable approach? Anyway, you can get a 20 gig retail for $100.
5) A case and 200W power supply. $30 if you use a standard PC mini-tower.
Seems like that would be it. What are we talking, maybe $380 in parts (most of that for the Tuner cards)? And you could probably get most of that stuff cheaper.
Why not? Compared to an entire operating system that is ported to just about every platform in the freaking world, this is a trivial problem. Just Keep It Simple, Stupid, don't attach all the freaking bells and whistles to the hardware, make that as simple as possible and then use software to leverage that capability.
People don't want yet another game console that is also a TiVo, nor do they want a really complicated system that requires them to learn how to code C.
Most non-geeks can't figure out why open source is anything they should give a damn about, and couldn't care less if big media is locking them out of things they never even knew were possible. But put a Open Source turnkey TV recording device in their hands without any built-in crippleware, and god help the poor bastard that tries to take it away after they've gotten used to what it can do.
--Dave Rickey
This will spur the wholescale adoption of product placement advertizing as a replacement for treditional advertising (which can be easily segmented and editied out of media broadcasts). Here's an Interesting Paper on Product Placement giving a pretty good synopsis of the business case for it. The issue that is not explored in detail in this paper is the advantage to production companies that if, for example, I record an episode of seinfeld, on my TiVo, then skip the ads, I still see Jerry Seinfeld holding and drinking a Yoohoo chocolate drink. This is all fine and good, but that is one advertising slot which can never be re-sold when the show is in re-runs (ie: NOW).
Well, Not so. Enter Virtual Product Placement. This advertising methodology is described as: And suddenly it really doesn't matter if end users can easily skip over 30 seconds ob a broadcast which was taken up by a treditional ad which the viewer has no interest in seeing, because the real ad is built into the entertainment program the viewer has chosen to watch. This solves the economic problem of allowing users to edit television content in realtime, which would otherwise effect potential advertising revenues.
The use of PVRs like TiVo and especially modified PVRs like is duscussed in the aboce
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
People have already proposed this in a number of ways. They also lump in digital cable/satellite decoding too, since that's just another type of MPEG2 feed to deal with. There was a discussion a while back on the hypothetical Borg Box. The ill-fated Indrema had all those capabilities and more. And the vaporous Nokia Media Terminal looks promising.
But in all these cases they were including hardware encoding/decoding for MPEG2, since that's the only appropriate codec for real-time encoding of high quality video, which costs buck$. A celeron 400 wouldn't be up to the job. This drives the cost well above $300, more than most people would be willing to pay for such a device. That's why Tivo is sold at a loss, which is made up by the subscription service. (I know, in the long run it costs more, but people are shortsighted when it comes to buying stuff and companies like to keep their hands in your pockets).
Even if you had a personal TV device that did everything tivo did, and were hooked up to a free TV listing service, you still have to get your TV from somewhere. The digital cable and satellite providers reeeeeeeeally don't want you copying and distributing their pristine feeds. Those satellites weren't cheap, and you're damn right they want their money, probably worse than most. If such devices did become available, we'd have a serious encryption war on our hands in no time, just like with DirecTV. Such a device would be unusable much of the time, which is hardly good enough for the casual user.
cryptochrome---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
This is obviously a great example for Microsoft to use in it's "Linux is cancer that eats away other's intellectual property" campaign.
Because TiVo decided to use Linux, they were "forced" to release the source, allowing malicious hackers to figure out all their trade secrets and steal the intellectual property of television networks and producers on a mass scale.
Oooh, I'm trembling.