Anonymous Coward writes "I'm sure I'm not the first to report this, but Perl.com put up a synopsis of Larry Wall's annual report on the state of Perl. "
"Hey Bill, check this out. We're getting slashdotted."
"'onion.html'? Figures those retards would bring down our server hitting a page that doesn't even exist. "
Will Perl 6 be too big a change?
by
Frater+219
·
· Score: 3
I've been using Perl for about six years now, mostly for system-administration tasks and CGI. In reading the various documents pertaining to Perl 6 -- the RFCs, the Apocalypses, and now this -- I'm starting to worry that a great deal of what I've learned in Perl 4 and 5 will not be useful in Perl 6.
By making that big a move, it seems to me that Perl risks losing a lot of users. Existing users' Perl-fu represents an investment of effort in learning the language, and the more of this investment that Perl 6 invalidates, the less affinity they'll retain for Perl. Perl isn't the only fast, flexible interpreted language out there any more -- Python's been around for a while, and Ruby just might take off one of these years.
If I'll have to learn a whole 'nother language either way, why learn Perl 6 rather than Python?
Re:Will Perl 6 be too big a change?
by
Frater+219
·
· Score: 4
If you already know Perl fairly well, you shouldn't have too much trouble learning Perl 6. Besides, how can you expect to just learn just one programming and language and end there? The nature of this profession is that you are constantly learning new things.
Already knowing Perl 4/5, Scheme, C, shell, AppleScript, and C-64 BASIC "fairly well", I don't imagine I would have all that much trouble picking up Python, OCaml, Ruby, Emacs LISP, or Fortran 90, either. I might have some trouble with Intercal, Befunge, or Object COBOL, though. *chuckle* My point is that by gratuitously abandoning large swaths of Perl 5 syntax, Perl 6 would thereby abandon Perl users' existing Perl expertise. That makes it less attractive, not more, to Perl users who are already considering taking up another language.
It seems to me that people don't like being abandoned -- or, more precisely, won't like hitting themselves on the forehead every once in a while and saying "D'oh! Can't do that in this new Perl!"
Also, Perl is in need of some major changes ie the OO portion of it. I really like Perl, but the current OO implementation feels more like a hack than anything. Not near as elegant as say Python's OO feature.
That's for sure. I've been taking a close look at Python the past week or two, and it seems to handle object-orientation (and libraries in general) rather more pleasantly than Perl 5 does. I've still got some reservations regarding its string and regexp operations, but I'm seriously considering doing my next few minor projects in Python.
(Pythoneers: My chief reservations have to do with immutable strings; and with the greater number of hoops one must jump through to use a regexp, as compared with Perl's =~ operator. It also strikes me as weird that a deliberately "clean" language overloads the % operator to implement what everyone else calls sprintf(). Oh, and while I'm gritching, how about a lambda operator without the limitations?)
I would really hate to see Python overtake Perl as the interpreted language of choice; therefore, I support any changes that need to be done.
See, I don't really understand that sentiment. Why is the popularity of Python (or Ruby, or OCaml, or Emacs LISP) something to fear or "hate to see"? If the development of Perl goes a way I don't think is conducive to my use, then of course I'm going to find new tools. If you like Perl 6, by all means use it; I'm just saying that the weirder it is compared to Perl 5, the fewer folks will go along for the ride.
As you can see, the syntax is non-threatning even to the most novice of programmers and is very intuitive.
w00t w00t i g0t r00t w00t w00t w00t
5 more seconds to go
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
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a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless
-- this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Re:Is Perl losing its Perliness?
by
The+Cunctator
·
· Score: 5
No, you're not alone. It's certainly a bold stroke--resembles the Apple migration to OS X. I'm hesitant, but I am pretty trustful of Larry Wall and I'm not too tied to syntax to have my brain collapse at such a drastic change. Change is necessary--and if done with intelligence, even drastic change can be good.
But with this one, definitely only time will tell.
What is this "perl"? I looked all over Microsoft's website and I couldn't find where to download it. Must only be available to beta testers.
At the risk of ruining a good joke, Microsoft do distribute Perl, or at least they used to. It's on the NT 4 resource kit. Dunno about the Win2K one, though - I haven't managed to summon the enthusiasm to look.
I assume they'll leave it off the XP resource kit, though, in case it infects the rest of the software on the CD with that pernicious GPL virus.
--
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I would be a paid subscriber if Taco and Hemos weren't such cunts
After sifting through the overcommented, underhabitated (at least for intellegent life) areas of Slashdot, Luke and CmdrKnbi sped away from contents.pl, across the surface of the search.pl riding Larry Wall's traslation routines. CmdrKnbi had Luke stop at the edge of the code block, overlooking the vast query ?topic=perl.
"The Perl comments section," said CmdrKnbi. "You will never find a more wretched hive of trolls and Python aficionados. We must be cautious."
Is Perl losing its Perliness?
by
isomeme
·
· Score: 5
Having read this summary and both Apocalypses, and as a long-time and ardent Perl user, I must say I'm profoundly uneasy about where Larry is taking Perl 6. Many, many of the proposed changes (for example, the -> ~ . operator modifications mentioned in the article) will both break virtually all existing Perl code, and require fairly fundamental relearning by Perl coders. And yes, I know there's a planned kludge to use syntax to grandfather in P5 modules, but it's ugly and doesn't cover main programs).
My question is, why? Why mess with so much of Perl? Why break backwards-compatibility across the board? If Larry wants to create a new language, he should go for it, and I'd probably be eager to try it out. But with Perl 6, he seems to be creating a new language and calling it Perl, which strikes me as the worst possible path.
Am I alone in feeling this way?
--
-- When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
Just as long as nobody needs to throw mugs up against the wall during their speeches!
Regular expressions are very powerful. I'm glad to see that Larry is making good decisions regarding these.
It's funny. It seems that everybody wants Perl to be more like Ruby or more like Python. Don't they realize that they can just use Ruby or Python? I have professional experience with all three of these languages and I can say that they all provide benefits, leading to a situation where it comes down to the right tool for the right job. I'm afraid that Larry is attempting to turn Perl into something that it isn't. a Jack-of-all-trades-yet-master-of-none which isn't good.
--
Keeping/. free of grammatical errors for ~5 years.
It's the first time I've heard "onion" and "apocalypse" in documentents pertaining to the development of a computer programming language. I wonder what the next funny word will be : maybe Larry could use dictionary.com's word of the day for help:-)
-- "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
However, Larry encouraged everyone to do their part; newbie friendliness is one thing, but it's important to hold yourself to higher standards than those to which you hold yourself.
Oh, ok. I'm glad they cleared that up. I for one am certainly going to start holding myself to such standards now much more than I'm expecting I will.
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Not a lot of suprises - a well run OSS project
by
hillct
·
· Score: 3
If only all OSS projects were this well run. Too bad. I was going to comment in more detail on one element of the synopsis (quoting it here) but it looks like Perl.com is/.'ed already. What a shame. I usually expect better or O'Reilly.
Is Perl 6 going to support the notion of compiling Perl code into Java Bytecodes for compatibility with Java that will allow Java programs to take advantage of string processing provided by perl?
-- The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Slashdot Mirror
...at perl.com headquarters...
"Hey Bill, check this out. We're getting slashdotted."
"'onion.html'? Figures those retards would bring down our server hitting a page that doesn't even exist. "
By making that big a move, it seems to me that Perl risks losing a lot of users. Existing users' Perl-fu represents an investment of effort in learning the language, and the more of this investment that Perl 6 invalidates, the less affinity they'll retain for Perl. Perl isn't the only fast, flexible interpreted language out there any more -- Python's been around for a while, and Ruby just might take off one of these years.
If I'll have to learn a whole 'nother language either way, why learn Perl 6 rather than Python?
Perl is actually a very logical language to use to teach beginners. Start out gradual, like:
$a = "hello world\n";
print "$a";
From there, even the casual beginner can progress to (code excerpt taken from slashcode):
($p{$_})&6];$p{$_}=/ ^$P/ix?$P:close$_}keys%p}p;map{$p{$_}=~/^[P.]/&&
close$_}%p;wait until$?;map{/^r/&&}%p;$_=$d[$q];sleep rand(2)if/\S/;print
As you can see, the syntax is non-threatning even to the most novice of programmers and is very intuitive.
w00t w00t i g0t r00t w00t w00t w00t
5 more seconds to go
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
------------
a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
But with this one, definitely only time will tell.
--
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Make mine methylphenidate.
What is this "perl"? I looked all over Microsoft's website and I couldn't find where to download it. Must only be available to beta testers.
*duck*
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
"The Perl comments section," said CmdrKnbi. "You will never find a more wretched hive of trolls and Python aficionados. We must be cautious."
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
.. are good in my Martini.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
My question is, why? Why mess with so much of Perl? Why break backwards-compatibility across the board? If Larry wants to create a new language, he should go for it, and I'd probably be eager to try it out. But with Perl 6, he seems to be creating a new language and calling it Perl, which strikes me as the worst possible path.
Am I alone in feeling this way?
--
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
Regular expressions are very powerful. I'm glad to see that Larry is making good decisions regarding these.
It's funny. It seems that everybody wants Perl to be more like Ruby or more like Python. Don't they realize that they can just use Ruby or Python? I have professional experience with all three of these languages and I can say that they all provide benefits, leading to a situation where it comes down to the right tool for the right job. I'm afraid that Larry is attempting to turn Perl into something that it isn't. a Jack-of-all-trades-yet-master-of-none which isn't good.
Keeping
It's the first time I've heard "onion" and "apocalypse" in documentents pertaining to the development of a computer programming language. I wonder what the next funny word will be : maybe Larry could use dictionary.com's word of the day for help :-)
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
However, Larry encouraged everyone to do their part; newbie friendliness is one thing, but it's important to hold yourself to higher standards than those to which you hold yourself.
Oh, ok. I'm glad they cleared that up. I for one am certainly going to start holding myself to such standards now much more than I'm expecting I will.
--
If only all OSS projects were this well run. Too bad. I was going to comment in more detail on one element of the synopsis (quoting it here) but it looks like Perl.com is /.'ed already. What a shame. I usually expect better or O'Reilly.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
There is also an MP3 of the talk available from Nat Torkington, Perl 6 project leader and organizer of the Open Source Conference.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Is Perl 6 going to support the notion of compiling Perl code into Java Bytecodes for compatibility with Java that will allow Java programs to take advantage of string processing provided by perl?
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.