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Who'll Be Using Ogg Vorbis Instead Of MP3?
An anonymous reader asks: "Ogg Vorbis is hitting stable and hopefully will release 1.0 soon. But I'm wondering, who is going to use it? MP3 is very popular on the net and beyond, but it's based on patents. Software patents aren't legal in Europe, but are in other parts of the world. Is Ogg Vorbis making a chance to become the next music-standard for the net and beyond. This mainly because there are no patents broken by this standard. Will it be a standard for the world or one for the books?"
Never having bothered to do it before with MP3, I've recently started ripping my CD collection to .ogg files, and the quality is good to my (tin) ears. Someone with an entrepreneurial bent needs to sell a dedicated hardware player that takes CD-Rs, so I can play back 10 hours of books on tape from a single disk. I'm not the only one slow on the MP3 curve, basically starting from scratch with Vorbis, am I?
Just for the record, the dramatic quality difference between VHS and Beta is a well documented myth (although, the question is a little more complicated than that, as usual). You are right, however that VHS killed Beta primarily because of the recording length issue.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Ew! You play your music off a 16 bit Sound Blaster? Those things have the WORST transient signals I have ever heard come out of a DAC! All the gold coated cables in the world won't eliminate the hiss from your fans and the snap every time the memory bus is called!
Switch to a nice digital output card (you can get coaxial digital from the old Aureal SQ1500 for $9, or optical digital out of the old SuperQuad 2500 for around $35) and deliver your sound cleanly to the card, and you'll have much, much better results. Since the DAC involved with digital out is the one on your receiver, you don't have ANY transient signals at all...no hiss means clean treble and no ambient rumbling from your bass!
Hey freaks: now you're ju
No you wouldn't. MP3 and Ogg are both lossy formats. Converting from one to the other would result in noticeable distortions in the files. Your best bet for quality Oggs is to re-rip from the CDs.
That is correct.... Winamp was located at winamp.lh.net, if I remember correctly.
>Good point. How does 'ogg' compare to mp3pro?
Current ogg's have lesser quality than mp3pro
*AT 64KBPS*. At higher bitrates it is the other
way around.
Since 64kbp sounds quite atrocious even with
mp3pro, and higher bitrate mp3pro is not freely
available (and pointless even), this is a no-
brainer.
--
GCP
Aside from the issue of patents (mainly annoying if you're trying to do something commercial with MP3), there are several good reasons to use Ogg:
-Performance. On certain types of audio, Ogg spins circles around MP3. I'm sure MP3 has its own best cases, but I've yet to find them. In the general case, Ogg holds its own against MP3, usually producing slightly smaller streams at comparable quality.
-Flexibility. Ogg streams are very easy to manipulate. To join two streams, just concatenate the files. Streaming software can arbitrarily reduce a stream's size by chopping off the ends of packets, since the less important information is stored near the end. It's also possible to store multiple logical streams of Vorbis audio in one Ogg stream.
-Quality. Older encoders did have some serious bugs, but the newer releases produce excellent results. I added the Vorbis codec to my HipZip portable player, and I use it for almost all of my music, unless it's already stored in MP3 (in practice, I usually encode my own stuff, so that's not a problem).
And no, I'm not an Ogg Vorbis developer. I've just taken an interest in the project.
-John
>erm... I did this already... took about 4 days
>for my Classic P233 to convert almost 3 gigs of
>MP3 to ogg.
From quality point of view that was a very bad
decision. MP3 is lossy, converting it to OGG will
only make it sound worse.
Because of the fundamental differences between
the two codecs, the result is quite bad actually.
There was a post on the vorbis list about this
earlier today.
--
GCP
There is too much infrastructure around MP3 (hardware players, software players, encoders, "sharing" services...) You think everyone is going to re-encode all the songs that are now in MP3 format just to get it into a "legal" and "open" standard? Yes MP3 is patented but unless Fraunhofer-IIS enforces these patents more strictly than they have, MP3 will keep Ogg from becoming a necessity. There is little benefit to the average Joe Twelvepack in terms of quality. Besides, if any new format will dominate the landscape, we all know it'll be M$'s WMA. (FP maybe?)
Enough said?
Okay, maybe not... maybe I have to spell it out. GIF is a format we're all mostly familiar with. It's out there, it's common and there is an important patent associated with it. PNG was created as the GIF alternative. It's superior in every way to GIF. Where are we now? How old is PNG? How accepted it is? How many rhetorical questions will I ask in this message? Dare I ask?
Converting from MP3 to Ogg Vorbis would defeat the purpose of both the codecs - lossy compression of audio.
I, and many of my friends, encode all our new rips into Ogg Vorbis RC1 because it sounds better and is smaller. Simple fact.
However, we also keep all our old MP3s. There is no reason to either re-rip or re-encode.
Scott.
Don't worry; in short order, integer-only code will be written. Floating point makes some computations more convenient, but you can always re-write so that floating point is not necessary. That will happen with Ogg Vorbis.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I've not 100% finished the updated howto, but you can have a look at what's finished:
http://www.plus24.com/mp3-howto/mp3-howto.html
Get Ogg'ing :)
Phil
But, it'll also be there as MP3, RealAudio, and *gasp* Windows Media. As a practical matter, I don't really expect many people to download the Ogg file (I'm not really sure I expect many people to download any of the files, really.) We're putting it up there as Ogg Vorbis for 2 reasons. First of all, it's a matter of choice. Looking at the end user, we want people to be able to get the data they want, in the format they want it, with a minimum of fuss and muss. Secondly, and unofficially, it's a small show of support for free and open standards; a very minor political statement, if you will.
Which, to be quite honest, doesn't really bode well for the format. I'm not sure I can think of many technologies that overtook marketplace momentum because they were ideologically appealing.
interesting little post, except for one thing.
Betamax was there first. VHS overtook it. Sony marketed Betamax VCRs in the US before RCA marketed VHS. (Which is why Universal Studios sued Sony, not RCA, to stop VCRs from being distributed in the US.)
The reason VHS won is simple: people liked being able to tape six hours of crappy NTSC on one tape. Sony thought they'd care more about quality. JVC had already caved a little by suggesting maybe a 4-hour format would be useful sometimes. RCA pressured them into providing the 6-hour format.
RCA was right. 6 hours makes timeshifting much more practical. Broadcast TV is crap quality anyway, we don't need high-quality formats to preserve its defects for the future.
Anyway, the point is that that comparison has really nothing to do with OGG/MP3. Where .ogg stands to gain is if some of the major media player writers support it. It has no chance of support from MS, but if RealNetworks, Nullsoft and/or Apple add it to RealPlayer/Jukebox, Winamp and iTunes, then we might see a momentum shift.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
Yes, this is a problem if you use portable MP3 players (which I don't). However, the specs for the Vorbis 1.0 decoder weren't finalized until a few weeks ago (and the sample decoder still has some memory usage issues), so you can't really expect any companies to have implemented decoding yet.
AFAIK, ripping to ogg is a 2 step process, save the track as a wav, then encode to ogg.
Well, you're wrong. Anything that can do MP3 encoding on the fly should be able to do it with Vorbis as well. As an example, have a look at CDex, the best Windows ripper/encoder. Most Linux encoders I've seen (for MP3 as well as Vorbis) seem to use the 2 step process, but this should be seamless to the outside user, and not much slower -- you're probably noticing a slow copy because the ripping (with Grip at least) uses CDParanoia, which is quite slow but very accurate.
And with my massive mp3s sitting there, I'd like to have a program that could convert from mp3 to ogg.
Please don't do this. Transcoding almost always leads to very low quality files -- and will lead people who listen to them to assume that all the artifacts are due to OGG, and not to the transcoding process. MP3 encoding creates certain artifacts. Vorbis creates others. By encoding to MP3, and then Vorbis, you are getting 2 sets of artifacts, plus the Vorbis coder has to waste bits encoding the MP3-created artifacts. MP3 players aren't going to go away, so please don't transcode: re-rip instead.
I could not tell a difference between ogg and mp3 sound quality
Note that all the encoders kicking around are of (at best) the beta 4 release, which, amongst other issues, has no channel coupling. You can expect at least a 10% reduction in file-size in the final release compared with beta 4, and more if you let it try lossy channel coupling (akin to joint stereo in the MP3 world). Beta 4 at 128 kbps already sounds better than 128 kbps MP3s - the final release will sound the same at 112 kpbs.
One thing is certain, I'll never use the wma format.
Damn right.
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
In fact, the word from Nullsoft is that they have an Ogg Vorbis plugin that will be included in Winamp 2.77.
Arches makes a laptop HD mp3 player. You transfer files via USB and it can playback MP3s but you can transfer any file type to the drive. A small codex software change on the hardware could support something like this. But manufacturers can't make money off anything they can't patent. So I don't see this happening anytime soon. By the way, at $200 the 6GB player is a steal because you can transport anything you want onto it and it holds hours of music and other stuff. It also has a 30 inch drop rating so is perfect for mountain biking, aerobics, and no skip technology. Try to get that with a CD player.
Right, but in 2.77 they'll be including it by default. You'll get Vorbis support simply by installing Winamp. No need to download a separate plugin.
LAME. It supports both ogg and mp3. Run the same file at the same bitrate, once as an ogg and once as mp3. Grab the newest ogg libs and the newest version of LAME.
BladeEnc has a nasty, nasty habit of distorting the sound.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Use the DbPowerAmp Music Converter (and ripper)
http://admin.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm
http://admin.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central.htm
It has plugins including:
Ogg (Beta 4), WMA, LAME mp3, and many more!
Seriously, I've used this at home and it really is the best encoder/ripper I've ever used. Without some of the really neat goodies you can pay for, it is free though, and still fully functional.
--onyx--
it's different to lop of chunks than it is to add to the end, bedcause there's some hneader information that the beginning, i think. try what he did (cat'ig them together) and see if it works. i'm not on linux now, i doubt windows's command line can do that sort of thing (copy a b c where is the final file might work...)