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New Language CURL Merges HTML And Javascript
jluxe writes: "CNN reports that a new language, Curl, was presented at the Software Development Forum in Palo Alto. This language works via a plug-in to browsers, and attempts to merge the gap between HTML, javascript, java, and even C++. It also supports the Macromedia Flash plug-in. Interesting to note that Tim Berners-Lee is listed as a financial backer of this venture, as well as an adviser." Here's the Curl Corporation's official website as well.
Curl is several years old. It was picking up a little momentum as a freely available language/browser (source available) hosted from an MIT page (http://curl.lcs.mit.edu/curl/). It was an academic project with a grant from DARPA. IIRC, the academic page simply disappeared one day (maybe I've just been unlucky every time I try to access it; it's cached on google).
A year or so later, the commercial page showed up with mounds of reeking lawyer-speak.
The idea is pretty good, but it had a hard time taking off when it was free. Maybe it would make sense for someone to do a similar Lisp/TeX cross, but their attitude toward how to promote it is so ridiculously wrong that it's obviously not going anywhere in its current form.
Don't you just love it when government-funded academic research gets fenced off by a clueless corporation?
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Your post indicates that you have a pretty limited view of the programming language space. PHP is "Perl and C/C++ wrapped into one" because it has "classes", "great string manipulation", "support for CGI" and "now GTK" These are all supported by Python, Perl, Ruby and a host of other languages. PHP is just one among many. PHP's real virtue is that it is totally embedded in the web server environment. It is hard to justify it purely in terms of language features as you seem to want to. It is a mediocre language embedded in a great dynamic web pages environment.
And anyhow, the existence of these many server side languages do not really have any impact on the need for languages on the client side. Yes, PHP can generate JavaScript, HTML, Flash and other stuff that works on the client-side. But really Curl is competing with those client-side languages, not with PHP. PHP could just as easily generate Curl if it turned out to be better than JavaScript et. al. So PHP is great at what it does but not really relevant to the question of Curl's utility or viability.
Part of my nefarious plan - And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids -
;-)
-- My Weblog.
People have seen the short-comings of Java, with the client-side operating environment practically bringing your machine to its knees
I'm sorry, but that's complete bull. I'm typing this in galeon 0.11 on a P3 450 with 256MB of RAM, with JBuilder 4 Pro (a pure Java IDE) running on another desktop, KDE2.1, KMail running, etc, and the machine is running just fine, thank you very much.
Java has come a long way in the last couple of years. True, most popular browsers still use an outdated version (1.1?), but don't let that blind you to what a real JDK can do.
I work for a web agency, and we do all our server-side work in Java (on Linux). No, I wouldn't recommend using Java client-side for a web site, but that's just because of most browsers' crappy Java support.
Personally, I'll be watching CURL with interest. I don't think it'll take off anytime soon, if at all (12meg download for a plugin? Not over a modem...), and I can't see us using it, but at least someone is trying something new.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
So you can bankrupt some company just by sitting there clicking "reload" all day?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The first is that Curl is not free (don't stop reading, I'm not a zealot). If you are a commercial entity wishing to publish Curl content, you have to pay Curl Corp. a licensing fee. Writing a free Curl enginge is likely to be irrelevant, as you pay Curl Corp. to use Curl content, not to use their software. HTML, JavaScript, C++, Java and many others are free. Write a compiler or interpreter, and anybody can use them.
To gain widespread use on the web, a language should not require the publisher to pay where the current languages don't. Unless it's incredibly much better than anything available today. It must surely have some real killer features if companies are to be interested in converting their sites to Curl. The larger the company, the less likely they are to convert (Curl licensing is by volume), and the more likely they are to influence what the smaller companies do.
The second reason, and it's a smaller but still relevant question, is cross platform portability. Curl's homepage lists the system requirements as Windows 95/98/NT, Netscape or IE, with Linux and Mac "coming soon". But there are an incredible amount of browsers out there already for platforms that are not on the desktop.
One of the things that made the web great is that it is not dependant on a particular manufacturer to implement their product on a particular platform. Anybody can write a HTML- and JavaScript-browser if they have the time and skills. Opera wouldn't have seen the light of day had Curl been the standard.
Then there's the question of e.g. proxies. There are lots and lots of products in use today that work on HTML, e.g. cacheing and filtering proxies, that will not work with Curl. Whether Curl publishes standards so that proxy/filter manufacturers can implement Curl support remains to be seen. As does whether a proxy counts as a publisher and should thus pay royalties to Curl Corp.
I don't see Curl as a serious replacement for HTML/Java/JavaScript/C++ anytime soon. Perhaps under a modified licensing agreement, with published standards, big corporations would consider a switch and smaller would follow. But for today I don't think Curl stands a chance, regardless of technical merits.
In a separate note, Nicodaemos announced today that he is releasing his new language, Hurl, at the masses. "Many people in the industry are very excited about this new language." says Nico. "In fact, Steve Ballmer was heard to say that this is one language he just couldn't keep down."
Nico states that "Though the software is free, Hurl makes money by metering and charging fees to businesses that 'Hurl' down their users throats." "It's very exciting technology.", says Nico, "Companies will be able to send their content as projectiles to a user's browser in chunks." "Other languages are very watered down. They're here and then they're gone. Hurl sticks to you and seeps into places within your organization you never thought possible. And it's persistent. Even though you don't see it, you'd swear you could smell it. Hurl leaves a lasting impression on you."
This isn't all marketing hype. Hurl does seem to be gaining momentum with developers. One developer was recently heard to say, "... Passports, C#, .NET ... Jeez it all just makes me want to Hurl!"
The prediction business is very tricky and although I'm not a psychic, I'm predicting that the upcoming release of Windows XP looks like it will drive many to Hurl, in a big way.
You're thinking "what end-user would want to spend that kind of money and put up with those restrictions?" The proper question, though, is "how many corporations would consider the benefits of Curl to be worth setting up a Curl server on their intranet?"
(Of course, the answer may be "not enough to give the VCs anything close to the return on investment they were hoping for"...)
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I had no idea who Tim Burns-Lee was.
I found him here.
http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/
Ascii artist &
You assume your hardware is powerfull however we are quickly moving toward the use of minimal systems to interact with the net. Do I want to locally compile and process a load of data on my flash new mobile phone? No Sir...
The era of the PC is coming to a close - we are moving towards lots of small tailored solutions - mobile phones, settop boxes and the like. You won't be browsing the web (at home) from a PC - it will be a TV...
First, Javascript is a good idea. The language is small easy to use and gets the job done.
Second the implementation in current browsers leaves a little to be wanting.
Lets talk about the merits of the language if we are going to slam it. Do not talk about a language being inherently good or bad OR the implementation of the LANGUAGE being good or bad if you are just going to be critical of the stupid things people do with JavaScript.
People do stupid things in ANY programming language on ANY platform EVERYWHERE.
I am not sure what the point was to your post other than to be sarcastic or funny.
Any web developers worth a grain of salt knows that you can't trust data from the client. For every bit of JavaScript data validation I have written there is a nice set of validation routines the data is put through ON the server.
I think inexperienced developers may put the work to the client exclusively but this again has nothing to do with the merits or flaws of JavaScript as a language IMO.
I have been using client side validation for as long as I have developed web applications (almost five years now). When people use our intranet we require them to use JavaScript. Why? It enhances the user experience enough that the use of JavaScript is justifiable. 999/1000 times the client is not trying to hack you. What does it hurt to do a little client side validation. This will get 99% of your bad data. Then you ship it to your server validation routines and it all goes smoothly. No extra trips back to the client/server just to validate the data and get the required information in the proper format... all done in one trip to the server. This not only makes an application more robust it makes the application feel smoother for the end user.
My point being people complain about JavaScript when truly they are complaning about the implementations of other developers, Not the browser implementation and Not the actual language itself. It is just easier to say its all crap and ignore it and blame other developers for being idiots right?
Jeremy
It's interesting. People have seen the short-comings of Java, with the client-side operating environment practically bringing your machine to its knees, not to mention certain IE vulnerabilities with older versions of JDK. So we tried to move away from that environment by performing server-side processing. ASP, JSP, ColdFusion, and the ever-powerful PHP. Why is it that we want to go away from the server-side arena when we know what it is like?
Now the reason I'm directly mentioning PHP is because this plugin boasts the ability to merge C++ with your webpages. Well, you can write CGI with C++, but that is usually rather painful. PHP is (to me) Perl and C/C++ all wrapped into one. You want classes? Sure, you got them. You want great string manipulation? Sure, that's there too. Not to mention you can embed Javascript in their if you NEED to use it. And now that PHP supports some level of GTK for graphics, why would you even want to use Java, especially since you can ram all the Shockwave and Macromedia Flash into a PHP-generated page that you want? I just don't see the benefit, if there is any, of trying this, when server-side dynamic pages have proven to be incredible, and give all and even more functionality that this product boasts. Who knows though, maybe it will be better than we all expect.
...is to generate press releases, news articles and Slashdot threads. I've never heard anyone use it. I just hear people pointing it out to each other and saying: "Tim Berners-Lee backs it." As if that automatically makes it more interesting than all of the other languages (client and server side) out there.
Pay as you go looks like a pretty clear way to kill a programming language to me...
again? http://slashdot.org/articles/01/04/06/1335241.shtm l
Which I wouldn't mind, except I think I already have something like that called the MacroMedia Flash Plug-in, well in my case Flash.
Only with Flash, I don't have to worry about too much about the learning curve that comes with Curl's seven different integer primitives because ActionScript is a weiner'd down version of ECMAScript.
Moreover, I can leverage Flash & ActionScript on the client side with languages I already know, and are usually available on the server side, such as PHP, Ruby, Perl ... along with the vast libraries associated with languages (fun stuff).
Similarly, MacroMedia has opened up it's file format that has given rise to a variety of UNIX, Win and MAC development solutions.
Considering all this, do I really need CURL ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Lucky for us, and too bad for them it won't fly. People who have actually worked on large-scale web development already know that mixing code and content in this way is a maintenance headache. And the others seem reasonably happy with JavaScript and VBScript.
If there is one thing the web needs right now, it is freedom from the vision of the semantic web, and all those other idiotic visions keeping us from progressing further. There is nothing wrong with the semantic web per se, but it is not, and should not be the solution for everybody's needs. If the people at W3C had realized this when they started, instead of making overly complicated standards trying to catering for everyone's need, we might even have had a useful web by now. A simple presentation language for people wanting to describe layout precisely, and a still-simple HTML-variant for describing content. If you were worried about both, you would be fucked of course, but very few people are.
If you are still not convinced, let's look at a few examples:
...etc. The layout/content separation theory is good in theory, but I think it's on time to start liberating ourselves a bit from it now. It has been over 10 years with the web, and still very few are happy with the way it works.
Curl may not be any more proprietary than Java, but the site constantly bares its legal teeth at you. My gut reaction is to stay away.
I imagine my assessment at the time still stands: Using a plugin as the deployment technology could be useful to get a critical mass of developers and libraries, until it becomes semi-standard. However, since I can't recall seeing anything at all related to Curl in these months since the last story, I'd say critical mass is not forthcoming. :(
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Touting this as being a cross between HTML and Javascript makes me wonder why anyone would want to use it.
Javascript is one of the worst implimentations of a bad idea that I've seen.
One of the basic tenets of client server programming is "Never Trust The Client". Yet still, people write shopping carts that calculate totals and shipping charges in javascript, then trust the client to send back accurate data. I'm sure that TBL knows this, but is he expecting that every curl developer has even taken a basic CS class and will remember that? I doubt it. Developers will look to push as much of the processing as possible off to the client, imposing more security risks. They say they use a 'sandbox' - doesn't VBScript say the same thing?
Also, their micropayment scheme is going to turn a lot of people off. First they say how this has been developed using the same grant as the WWW, (my tax money?) then they explain that if I put up 'curl' code on my site, I've got to pay them per user. Sure. No problem. Next!
Why don't I just put up a page of C++ source and tell people to "lynx -source http://code_url|gcc"?
Sure, whatever...
Cheers,
Jim in Tokyo
-- My Weblog.
How is this viewed generally in terms of Web development. It seems to be something that was designed specifically for this intercompatability. i would like to know what has been compromised in terms of other functionalities for CURL, in order to be all things to all people? Especially since as a plugin, it will be something that people can try and remove quickly if they don't like it. As has been discussed in previous posts there has not been a lot of interest thus far. If it were kickass, it would be a little more popular now 'cause everyone can use it with their existing work on the web, right?
.tv domains specifically restricted to sites in such isolative languages, in order to support TV-appliance technology using the Web and other peripheral economies.
Furthermore, I have always believed that a universal standard is not always a good thing for its own sake. Consider the commercial applications of sites on the Web that are only readable through a particular technology, and translator programs do not capture the full glory of the site. Yes you can translate but it's like dewatermarking a copyrighted music file, it sounds and looks like shit. For visual media on the Net, like maybe sitcoms or whatever that want to broadcast there rather than on TV, it would probably be a good idea to write in a language that's isolated from others commonly used on the Web. I could even see rules that make the
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"New language CURL ditches all existing web work for a proprietary, windows-only format."
Even shockwave is more cross-platform.
I doubt that anyone will implement this in websites. It's taken five years to get a decent implementation of CSS1, and that's still not used widely.
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Curl Instead of Java or JavaScript? posted by michael on Friday April 06, @02:56PM
Re:Java, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful) by Jason Earl (jdearl@yahoo.com)
Some more words... (Score:5, Insightful)by guku on Friday April 06, @03:18PM EST
Commentary (Score:5, Insightful)by Nohea (sd at nohea dot com) on Friday April 06, @03:16PM EST
Curl == Spyware (Score:5, Insightful)by stonewolf on Friday April 06, @03:45PM EST
Today, compuer hardware can be had for almost nothing. Bandhwidth, if it can be had at all, is costing more, as DSL companies die out because they realized they weren't charging customers enough.
The client is powerful, the network is not. If you want cross-platform compatibility, sacrifice some speed by running within a VM. Java is slow, yes. But you couldn't possibly get that framerate if it were streamed over today's cable modem.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/04/06/133524 1&mode=thread
How hard is it to do a search of your own website for "Curl"?
"And like that
Read the license agreement at http://www.curl.com/html/products/surge_license.js p and tell me why I, or anyone else in their right mind would load a plug in that allows the plug in to report on what you have viewed with it and also allows the plug in to block content!
Then wander over to http://www.curl.com/html/products/pricing.jsp and look at the fact that you have to commit to sending Curl a minimum of $1000/month (max of $50,000/month) to use Curl to deliver content. And the cost is based on how many characters you serve. Not, on how much revenue it generates.
This product looks more like misguided megalomania than like product that stands a chance of actually being used by anyone.
Technically, it acutally looks pretty good. But, the business model and the privacy policy are, well... They're insane.
StoneWolf