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What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers?
WGR writes "The City of Ottawa, Canada is starting to re-write its Official Plan, the "charter" for a city. [A few weeks ago] we had a 5 day Smart Growth Summit that was webcast online with discussion groups and web interactivity. Ottawa is fairly strong in the high-tech sector as it is, with NortelNetworks and JDS-Uniphase having their biggest presence here and had over a $1 billion of venture capital last year. But how do you keep a livable city when you expect to have a 50% population increase in 10 years? One idea came from Dr. Richard Florida from Carnegie-Mellon University. He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's, "Technology, Talent and Tolerance". That is, where there already is a lot of technology, where there is a rich artistic and entertainment sector, lots of educational opportunities, where there are a lot of people with similar interests and where there are people from many diverse backgrounds and lifestyles. But not necessarily low city taxes.
Do you agree, and what would be your ideal city to work in?"
Thats why I like working in Chicago - theres an excellant public transportation system. You can live anywhere from Milwaukee, WI to Gary,IN and get downtown in no more then 90 minutes. I take the 90 minute route, so 3 hours of commute sounds bad. But most places around here let you count it as work. So I get to work at 9 and leve at 3 - not bad at all
Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
A few other things a local government can do.
When a local government starts to act in the interests of its local citizens, it will become more attractive to the affluent and highly mobile work force. Make that statement the core of every city council meeting.
the AC
[Ottawa? I could make a comment about warm weather year round, but there is nothing you can do about that
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
I know, I know... minimal Ricochet coverage, horrible cell reception in a lot of neighborhoods, through-the-roof rent, and horrendously rude people.
Who cares. I was born here, and while it's no place for hardware types, it's coastal, has damn near every type of restaurant available, and there's always something to do. At the end of the day, I want to leave the sysadmin work back at the office and kick back. At least I have more options than staying at home playing video games, although I'll do that pretty often as well.
Being within 40 minutes of most of your friends helps. And for me, the import shops are key. The only thing that I'd really like to see is a decent amateur 802.11 effort here. Two access points on one street and another a few miles away doesn't count.
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
Just to set a perspective I live in Atlanta, Georgia. And it is the best city I have lived in so far.
I agree with what Mu* said in general but here in Atlanta I have not really noticed the tendency to "milk to cow". For instance I live downtown with a friend of mine a stones throw from the CNN building and we only pay $1150 a month including utilities for a 2bed/2bath apartment. I think this is mainly because Atlanta just grew at a good rate with the whole boom in the 90's instead of exploding like Silicon Valley.
One of my biggest greviances with Atlanta is the lack of a decent public transport system. And by that I mean we dont have a subway, and if you live in Atlanta dont even try to say those MARTA trains constitute a subway. It only runs north/south and east/west and has way too few stops. It would be nice to have something like what Washington, D.C. has where the subway goes all the way out to the suburbs and there are parking areas at the end points.
I think a very important part of any city that wants to attract Techies is that they need to be a diverse and tolerant city. One thing I have a hard time doing is putting up with bigots/racist/holyier-than-thou types. I was raised with a philosophy of "dont knock it till you've tried it" and I try to live up to it. I believe that everyone should be able to live the way they want to live. I will not live somewhere where I am told I need to change or the people's general attitude is that I am the spawn of satan for not agreeing with them (I went through highschool once already and I would rather not do it again).
As far as taxes go I feel that anything above 30% or so is excessive unless the government can really explain it. Here in Georgia I actually lose more money to state taxes than I do to federal taxes and social security which I dont think is right... Georgia doesn't have an army last time I checked.
Wow that kindof rambled a bit.
Basically I look for interesting Technology Companies, Tolerance, Diversity, public transport, and a good education system(I will have kids one day).
Of course, with education it is not so much the city but the individual schools that are good or bad.
Rich
Well, you're almost correct. Everything is correct except for the food. The food sucks in Amsterdam to a level not matched by any European city of similar size, with the exception of cities in the Scandanavian countries.
On my last six visits to Amsterdam, I was utterly amazed at how well the Dutch can slaughter cuisines that I previously thought couldn't be messed up. Mexican Stew? When's the last time I've had Mexican Stew in Texas or Mexico? Hahahaha.
There's good Asian food in Holland. And good cheese. The bread is better than the states, but not as good as in Belgium or France. Oh yes, and if fries are your thing, nobody does fries like the Dutch. But beyond that, good luck.
For the rest of it, you're dead on, though. I truly love Holland, although I prefer Den Hague and Haarlem to Amsterdam.
--Be human.
I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. There are a number of things that make our tech scene great.
Oh, I love Charlottesville. I used to work for Litton, and they offered me a transfer there a couple of years ago. I turned it down, in the end, because I didn't like the position.
But, ah, Charlottesville. Friendly people, beautiful Virginia countryside all around, low real estate prices (compared to Toronto), low taxes (compared to what the Canadian government does to me every two weeks), and FedEx doesn't have to go through hell to try to get my rust-free Arizona car parts to me. My 1976 Dodge Ram fit in perfectly there.
[sigh]
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae? Sure theres a bunch but most geeks earn enough to see their kids are in good schools.
No advertising in the schools? Oh yeah - "Not gonna move to Ottawa - They've got Coke in their schools!" I'm sure Corel & Nortel recruiters field this issue all the time...
Bicycle paths? Aren't bicycles those things most geeks hang on walls as some sort of trophies? Sure there are some bicycling nuts but they're mostly like those silly sea kayaks in the Pacific Northwest many geeks have and only used twice in 10 years (but love to try & drop into the conversation to impress MOTAS.)
Hostility against big ISPs? Most geeks just want cheap, relaible, fast & customer service from an ISP that knows NTP from NNTP - couldn't care less if it comes from Rogers, Cox, or anyone else incl. Mom-n-Pop-ISP.
Etc.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
How about
1) Suburban sprawl on both sides, with a greenbelt in the middle, and a decaying pile of city in the dead center?
2) The high tech community bordering on farmland and/or in suburban hell?
3) Strange laws that say you can't have garage sales, clotheslines, etc
4) 50%+ taxes
5) Enforced francophony
6) Lousy pick of jobs, and low pay in almost all of them
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
As to your employer being wiser to fire the non-whatever-you-are folks and going with your sort: Post their email address and I'm sure someone would be happy to pass your comment along.
Moderators: Read the original before calling this one - I refuse to dignify it with quoting but also refuse to let this sort of garbage go unchallenged. It's on topic because it's exactly the sort of issues that make one place attractive to high-tech employers/employees & others not.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
In today's economic climate? One that has jobs
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
They may not actually do any business within the province (example a high-tech software package that is only applicable to specific engineering practices not used in Quebec) but they must support hypothetical if impossible quebecois customers.The situation for non-profit sites is less clear but is likely the same, personal sites are apparently yet to be determined.
This is all new territory for the OLF and of course they like to make up "law" as they go along but for now it's usually best just to host one's material out of province.
As to knowing French, no you're not required and indeed there are many native Montrealers who don't have a working knowledge. However to run a business it's required as the provincial government works only in French and there are laws regarding the use of French within offices over a certian size, French in business communications, etc. Certianly it makes life much easier.
Finally the majority of the population that simply doesn't speak English, particularly outside of downtown Montreal. I lived in a farm town 45 minutes North of Montreal and any unidentified English material (newspapers, catalogs, magazines) went into my mailbox, particularly if they were tech-related. I was one of the few anglophones in town, the only tech one, and the small post office knew it.
The way I explain it to visitors is that Anglophones are like spanish-speakers in Texas or Florida. There's a bunch, particularly in the city but it's a second class society with the minority newpspers, minority TV stations, etc. The west island (Isle de Montreal) is heavily anglophone and there the street language is English but it's like a suburban barrio, drive a few blocks and the stop signs revert to "Arret".
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
LOL! That's great. Far better than my diatribe against this guy. Fantastic. Thx.
--Be human.
I have been to/worked at quite a few places in the world such as Chicago (Schuamberg), San Fran (San Jose, etc), Swindon (UK), Bonn (Germany), Fort Worth-Dallas, and Cork (Ireland) to name a few. I fit somewhere in the middle as far as the "geek" factor is concerned. I like to have my computer meets and a good game of head to head Quake with some friends, and I also like the out doors (biking, climbing, hiking) and the urban nightlife (house music, clubs, etc). Basically I like what cities like NYC and San Fran offer, but without all the traffic jams and with some good weather and the great outdoors. And I have found that here in Vancouver, which is the "small big city". We have all the amenities of a big city (you know, the big concerts, the Virgin Mega stores, the big city shopping and night life) but the city has the population of less than 1 million , the air is clean, never gets too hot or too cold (all year round), world's best skiing is a quick drive (Whistler) and the traffic is MUCH better than most Amercian cities. Granted, taxes are higher, but you get a pretty decent social welfare system. If you are more of a people's person, Vancouver is your place. And all the major corps have offices here (Motorola, Intel, Alacatel, HP, Nortel, IBM, etc , etc.) not to mention the chic Yaletown with all the smaller startups and incubation facilities... And as for rent goes, you can live downtown or in the Vancouver core where it is more expensive, you can live in the surrounding regions where rent is fairly cheap.. depends on how close to the beach you want to be ;)
-farshad
...and remember in your brain boggle, wrong starts with a wubble-u.
Other elements I think are important, in order:
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?
Because it's fun?
C-X C-S
Yes, he's serious. Quebec has some very draconian language laws. No English outside buildings, and half the font size of mandatory french translations within buildings. Children whose PARENTS did not attend QUEBEC ENGLISH SCHOOLS must learn in French schools entirely in French. Packaging must be in French. Software must be produced in French, first, then the English version...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
You've just described what many urban planners hate nowdays: sprawl. Everyone is supposed to emulate Portland now and pack more people and businesses into less space. Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire. Where have you been?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I left Ottawa to go live in the USA, where I could get a better job than Call Center Phone Answerer, and six times the pay, with a 21% tax rate.
Again, this is classic Canadian idiocy. "What can the GOVERNMENT do, spending LOTS OF DOLLARS, to get suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpeople to come and live and work here, and thus increase the TAX BASE?"
Lower the taxes, increase the salaries, and get in some decent jobs. It won't happen, so what they'll do instead is jack up the taxes to pay for a couple of skating rinks named after a couple of French Canadians, or something.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
One of the worst things I've seen/heard from people who live in the 'high tech heavy' cities/areas, is how high (most often termed 'insane' from them) the cost of living is in such places. The term 'high tech' seems to almost always conjure the idea 'big bucks'. With the pay rates assosciated with the stable tech industries/vendors (read 'not fly-by-night dot coms'), people start to feel there's 'more money in the air', and prices start getting jacked up. Hell, here in the Salt Lake valley, there's a nearly constant difference of 10 to 15 cents per gallon of gas between the west side (more middle and lower incomes) and the east side ('where the money is', the usual sentiment goes).
The point: people will try to milk perceived 'cash cows' as hard as they can, and having high-tech industry/service around, one can suddenly 'feel money in the air'.
As for 'The Three T's', well, think of the truly 'techie' people you know. They almost always can be considered 'eccentrics' in one way or another in relation to 'the general accepted public view' (Goths, anime junkies, Pythonites, Stars Wars fanatics, 'l33t g4m3r phr34kz', 'furries', RPGers, etc, etc. (And yes, I consider myself a few of these, so I have license to poke fun :b ) ). Techie people just -tend- to desire a varied and wide range of things. Hell, just look at a cross-segment of /. topics and threads. ;)
"Your mind is like a parachute. If it doesn't work, you're screwed..."
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
If cities are going to emulate Portland, they should make a lot of noise about density, then sprawl like crazy anyway. Portland has about 3.9k people per square mile. Compare to Seattle (6.7k), Los Angeles (7.9k) or San Francisco (16.6k). Portland isn't even that much denser than Phoenix (2.8k), for crying out loud! See a complete list of densitites for all US cities of with 50k or greater population.
- LOTS of ethnic restaurant (something lacking in Ottawa)
- Cheapest electricity in North America. Granted, you need a lot to heat in the winter
:)
- Very low cost of rent. My apartment (5 rooms) cost me 485 CDN$ (1 CDN$ ==
.65 US$)
- Nightlife extraordinaire (not quite NYC, but close)
- Lots of taxes break for new business. See the Cité du Multimédia in particular.
- Low crime rate, although it tend to worsen IMHO.
- Broadband available (both cable and DSL)
Downside include :Absolutely true. Fantastic food everywhere and open 'till late.
Also note that most buildings are almost uninsulated and the general housing stock is somewhat elderly.
Again, the housing is generally a step or two below US standards. This means fewer amenities, smaller rooms, more worn buildings, etc.
Actually I'd say better then Gulliani-era NYC. Plus much more accessible & much cheaper though after awhile Comedy Festival / Carrifiesta / Jazz Festival / Grand Prix / Gay Pride / Franco Follies / Fete Nationale / St. Patrick's / etc. get to be a bit much.
Lots (lots!) of government meddling in businesses. Some industries get big breaks, free buildings, employees underwritten, big grants, etc. & others don't. Success is as much about currying political favor & the public teat as it is about sales.
By US standards very low crime rates. When I first moved to Montreal I thought from watching TV news they must be the worst drivers in the word. Then I realized that without the US's daily parade of gunshots & the like single-car accidents were as close as they could come to "if it bleeds it leads" stories.
On the other hand the service isn't all that great & the language police can go after you if your website is in the province & isn't sufficiently bilingual.
- Low wage, high taxes
- Weather
- Sluggish economy
- No high tech spearhead, like Nortel in Ottawa.
Other things to consider are the hell of the language laws and the effect they'll have on your trying to run a business, the grossly intrusive government bureaucracy and the highest taxes in North America. Then there's the issue of the separtist government and their determination to create a pure Quebec of only francophones; the common racist & antisemetic feelings. Another is the lingering laws that forbid grocery stores (even very big ones) from having more then four staff late night or after regular hours on Sundays and that stores close early including malls.In my case I figured about 1/2 US rates before the exchange rate.
Long cold winters although the city is designed to handle them, all enclosed subway, vast "Underground City". Frankly I find winters in Montreal to be less of a hassle then in Boston as the plowing on streets & sidewalks is fantastic and sidewalk obstructions are intelligently kept against buildings.
Canada's economy lags the US's, Quebec's lags the rest of Canada's.
Has numerous businesses like SoftImage, ZeroKnowledge, chemical, pharmaceutical & aviation businesses plus lots of Nortel but no, no overwhelming ones like Corel or Nortel HQ. On the other hand this may well be a plus.
Also being in Canadia US companies overlook or avoid services up here: no TiVo service, expensive shipping across the border, anything that requires a Zip code to confirm won't work, etc.
It's a fantastic place to live but I wouldn't try to start a business here. Did I mention the highest taxes in North America?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
I'd much rather live in the country. It's peaceful, cleaner, lower crime, less expensive, and IMHO, a better place to raise a family. I've been to SF, Silicon Valley, Atlanta, Dallas, & Chicago and you couldn't pay me enough to live in any of those places. I think the only reasons I'm living where I'm at now are: 1) I actually like my job and 2) my wife squanders so much money that it's damn near impossible to save up any to move away.
The best programming job I ever had was at a Federal facility that most here would consider to be in BFE. We had lots of cool *nix machines to work on and interesting projects. At noon most of the programmers would go outside and take a walk along the neighboring corn fields. No smog, rarely any cars speeding by , and it was quiet so you could think about the latest algorithm that was puzzling you. Any resources one needed could be found on the internet [They were 10 years ago, should still be the same]. Unless it's an impulse buy, I don't purchase any geek toys at local stores and UPS/FedEx have regular delivery in rural areas. Sure, I would be paid less and it is cold in the winter, but I'd go back in a heartbeat.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Looking back, my laundry list was composed from two points of view, the geek as employee, and the businesses likely to employ geeks. Both are what Ottawa are trying to attract, because without attracting the businesses, there is no need for geeks.
I also forgot to throw in affordable child care. If a municipality doesn't nurture a good child care system in their community, one that businesses can take advantage of, then married geeks will not have any incentive to move up north.
If you are a company trying to build a new R&D centre in Ottawa, and the local ISP doesn't know NTP from NNTP and outlaws servers and has crappy service and capped bandwidth, the geeks will know and won't move to your new building. Word about lousy ISPs gets around, and if Ottawa allows cr@pHome a 20 year exclusive monopoly for lousy, restrictive access, they won't attract much more hi-tech workers than the few trapped there now.
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae?
Its not the geek with larvae, its a local pool of talent to recruit from over the next few decades. Businesses (errr, good, well managed businesses) choose to relocate based on a large number of factors, and having a tech-knowledgable school system is a big plus. It means that when kids grow up and graduate from university, they will probably stay in the area. Berkeley and Stanford are the reason Silicon Valley exists, as MIT and some Ivy League schools account for Boston's leap into hi-tech. The education effect goes all the way down to grade school level, you can't have top notch universities without a good stream of local talent feeding them.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Businesses will stay open later if it makes economic sense for them to.
Businesses will NOT stay open if local laws prevent it. The point was not to madate late hours but to permit them.
What a moron. Look, if a gay person doesn't interfere with my life, I think we should let that person live however they wish. The same goes with the use of drugs--as long as it doesn't interfere with my life, my neighbor can do whatever they want. I'm not brainwashed. I simply believe in the mantra of "live and let live".
You seem to be afraid that being around gay people will somehow make *you* gay. Sounds to me like you are a latent homosexual. You ought to experiment with this. You might find your real calling in life.
As for San Fran being a cesspool, I'm not quite sure what city you're talking about. I travel quite a bit, and I can honestly say that SF is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. The nightlife, the arts and entertainment, and the city & park life is wonderful, with few equals anywhere in the world.
Spread deadly diseases to the N. American continent? OMG. What planet are you on? Given your reasoning, next we should get rid of all the women. After all, AIDS is transmitted about 10x more easily from the man to the woman during sexual intercourse than it is the other way around. So perhaps God wants to get rid of the gays and the women (please not the sarcasm). You unenlightened twit.
As for the raping of 13 year-old boys, I think we should probably focus more on Catholic priests than on the homosexual community. There are a *lot* fewer priests out there, but there sure seems to be a lot higher percentage of priests raping little children than the homosexual community at large.
Where do you get these wonderful statistics about the average lifespan of homosexuals? I'd like to see even one reference to this, regardless of how dodgy the source might be.
Your opinions are pathetic, the result of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Gays aren't another race of beings. They're really quite similar to you and me. In my experience, the members of the gay community are far more upstanding, on average, than the heterosexual community. Why? I'm not sure. But I've got a hypothesis that it's a result of the gay community being more open to people that aren't like themselves. Tolerance is good. And the Golden Rule is even better. Try practising it once in a while--you might find that a few of those gays you've always hated turn out to be genuinely good people. One might even become your best friend! Without "brainwashing" you to become gay (gasp!).
Or perhaps you should live in your own little world, bashing gays whenever you get the chance. I'm sure that makes you feel better about yourself--you don't have to come to terms with your own sexuality. Gays are nothing to be afraid of. They, with the exception of a few bad apples (I don't need to mention the problem with heterosexuals and rape here...there are bad apples on both sides), don't tend to impose their beliefs on others. They don't go seeking out heterosexuals so they can turn them. They are often in committed, monogomous relationships. They are usually caring, kind people. In short, they're just like the heterosexual community, except that their sexual preferences have required that they develop tolerance. It would be nice if you could learn a little, too.
--Be human.
Fast internet connections and faster women?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
In the 1970's, Boston was the center of technology. Currently, Silicon Valley is. In my opinion, the most important factor to generating an excellent technical area is having excellent colleges. (Harvard and M.I.T. supplied many electrical engineers to the Boston area; Stanford and Berkeley provide them to Silicon Valley.)
Without excellent colleges, a place may be incredibly pleasant to live in, but it will have to import all of its technical talent. Although I have nothing against either Carleton University or the University of Ottawa, neither is a world-caliber university.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. Or a juggernaut.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
i'm probably a bit odd for a slashdot reader in that i actually _like_ support jobs.... not so much the call center variety, but there's nothing that i like more than working for the IT department in a college or university. the pay isn't always the best, but the low pressure environment and the variety of day to day work makes up for it for me.
so i'd have to say that the two biggies for me are a few largish colleges in the area, and a fairly low cost of living. right now i'm in buffalo and i love it. cheap rent, great restaurants, a wonderful art and music scene; everything i could ask for. i've spent time in all the continental states (except for oklahoma and delaware) and in all their major cities, and this is my favorite.
(yeah, i know, i'm the only one in the city who isn't actively trying to escape. :P )
--saintAlternate jobs in the same line of work. This means competition for the best jobs but also that jobs exist should I decide to move on.
Cost of living. Forget what I get paid, what do I get get to keep relative to similar money in other towns. ($95k in DC versus Baltimore)
Very good schools at two levels. First, for my children, elementary/high schools. Then for what it brings to the area one or two good technical colleges. The first is far easier than the second but most places seem to succeed or fail at both.
Good cultural opportunities. Sports, Theater, Arts.
Good public transport. Even if you build the ideal city I will still live in the suburbs and want to commute without a headache.
Fair taxes. I do not mind paying my share but it needs to be fair, and get me at once. I am tired of getting five different tax bills.
And seeing where you are from I just have to add, nice weather...
From this and the previous posters you see why this is hard to accomplish. Most cities do not have the billions of dollars necessary to start a college/university, build schools, public transportation, and cultural facilities.
Start with jobs. If you have them, they will come...