Slashdot Mirror
Sam Lantinga Slings Some Answers
Out-of-the-box Linux 3D support?
by phutureboy
This may be more of a question for everyone else than for Sam (but Sam can feel free to answer also :) I'm not a big gamer, but I would play some if it weren't such a bitch to get the proper libraries working under Linux. Last time I tried was about 6 months ago... After following some really complicated directions and compiling umpteen obscure drivers I finally got SDL and hardware-accelerated OpenGL working. I had to disable it and revert to my previous versions, though, because it locked up my system a lot during games and made X pretty unstable. Anyway, my question is this: is multimedia support for Linux getting any easier to install? Is it possible that someday I will be able to install a distribution and have it automagically configure hardware 3D support, install SDL, etc.? Or is Linux multimedia still too much in the toddler stages?
I'm just a lowly PHP coder. I don't understand all this low-level mumbo jumbo. I just want to fire up a game every now and then and blow shit up. Is there hope for me?
Sam Lantinga: Yes, more and more distributions are starting to set up 3D out of the box. 3D on Linux is always a moving target however, so the best bet is for distribution to both include 3D detection and setup, and also to include information on how to upgrade the drivers to the latest versions.
As anecdotal evidence, Mike "Heimdall" Phillips, who up until recently worked as Q/A and technical support at Loki Software, Inc., installed Mandrake 8 on a box containing a Rage 128 video card, and the installation detected and set up 3D acceleration out of the box. He was up and running with most of Loki's 3D titles immediately.
Graphics Hardware Drivers
by m2
My question is a bit tainted by my personal opinion in this matter, but I'm sure Sam will be able to provide a different (and surely interesting) point of view.
At the risk of being a tad Linux centric, does the availability or unavailability of hardware specifications and technical documentation on graphics hardware affect a Linux game developer and why? With two concrete cases in mind, on one hand NVIDIA who provides binary drivers and "high level" documentation about their cards, and on the other hand, ATI for which there's source code for the drivers with support for half of the features the hardware offers, but neither openly accessible hardware documentation nor much "high level" docs, how do you think this can affect the future development of games for Linux (proprietary or otherwise)?
SL: From my perspective as a cross-platform game developer, the objective is to write a great game, not to have to read technical documentation on particular graphics hardware. With the improvement of the OpenGL API implementations on the Linux platform, the need for game developers to get their hands dirty with the technical details of the graphics drivers is slowly going away. IMHO, this is a good thing. :)
Now, in reality there is always a need to look at the way the driver interacts with the hardware, either to fix bugs, or to improve graphics performance. For this reason, it's a great thing to have the source code and full graphics hardware specifications available - it allows the developer to make smarter choices about graphic implementation, and results in a better game. This is true of Linux as well as Windows, and interestingly Linux is a richer field than Windows when trying to find out how hardware and drivers really interact.
In the specific case of NVidia, I've been impressed with both the quality of their drivers, and the responsiveness and commitment of the company towards Linux as a whole. While it's true that there is no guarantee that this will continue, it's very refreshing now.
What's your status with Loki?
by Mr T
Was your departure good? Daniel Vogel also left. Is Loki in a good position or did you leave because of some problem. What's the deal?
SL: My departure was good. I left because I was very interested in the opportunity to work on original game content at Blizzard Entertainment.
Loki owes me money like all the other employees, but they have stated that they will pay me back, and I am very hopeful that they will do so.
Blizzard Entertainment
by j7953
What are you working on at Blizzard? Do you get paid for continuing your work on SDL, or do you have to do that in your spare time?
SL: I am working on an upcoming unannounced title. It's great fun and I can't wait for it to be announced so I can tell people what it is that I'm working on. As for SDL, I'm still working on it in my spare time. There's a rumor of a super-elite crack team of developers working on the next generation SDL API, but I can't substantiate it. :)
Directx 8 and SDL
by drenehtsral
From playing with it, and noticing what has been conveniently removed from the documentation (but is still in the libraries), it looks like DirectX 8 is trying very hard to do away with directdraw and work purely through the 3d engine. Sprites are just 2d textured polys, etc ...
This leads me to believe that any future enhancements/optimizations/support/testing/etc ... that will happen with directx will be only on the direct3d part, and directdraw is probably going to be unsupported. Do y'all have any plans to deal with that?
SL: The next generation SDL API is leaning towards the concept of a texture manager and a plug-in architecture for operations on those textures. This should for the most part be a natural improvement upon the current design, and will lend itself well to 3D hardware acceleration. This design is for the 2D surface API though. At this point, the plan is to continue to support real 3D through the OpenGL API.
SDL and OpenAL (among others)
by Eugenia Loli
So, I was always wondering if there is going to be a 'real' integration between OpenAL and SDL. Currently, a lot of people are just using SDL_mixer which does a pretty good job for little shareware/oss games, but when it comes to commercial sound, 3D positioning and all these buzzwords, SDL needs OpenAL to break through against the goodies of DirectX has to offer.
Also, what about a wrapper against D3D? There is currently a nice integration with OpenGL, when SDL needs to use 3D acceleration, but under Windows (where a lot of SDL games already exist) most of the coders are using D3D. Also, based on the fact that D3D 8 is not as bloated as previous versions, a wrapper for other OSes could be easily achieved (IMHO).
Last question, again on the spirit of 'SDL Vs DirectX', are there any plans for more support for more input devices, like force feedback wheels etc.
Take care and thank you for all the hard work you have put on SDL the last few years. (and also greatly thank you for the BeOS port! :)
SL: Okay, there are several questions here. First, thanks for the appreciation! It should go to all the developers who have contributed to SDL and to products using it, because without them, it would not have become the great API that it is.
As for integration between SDL and OpenAL... SDL audio is fairly lightweight and designed to have mixer implementations be built on top of it. OpenAL is a heavy-weight 3D audio API. Different applications have different needs, and one audio API may suit a particular use better than another. You can always choose to use SDL for video and OpenAL for audio, or SDL for audio and another API for video, etc., you have many choices in the design of your game.
As an aside, there is support in the Linux implementation of OpenAL for using SDL as a back-end, and in fact this was used at one point to get the Linux implementation working on Windows. However, this isn't generally needed because of great native audio support.
There are no plans for a Direct3D wrapper for SDL. OpenGL works well on Linux, Windows, MacOS, and many other platforms.
Finally, yes, the device support and event model in SDL 1.3 will handle a much wider range of devices. Whether or not force feedback support will be included will depend on the state of the drivers for these devices across the range of platforms that SDL supports.
Gamecube, Xbox?
by evilMoogle
With SDL for PS2, are there any plans to do the same for the other next-gen platforms, the Gamecube and the Xbox?
SL: I don't know of any plans, but I'm sure somebody will do something as an exercise at some point. That's one of the great things about open source software. I'm constantly surprised at what people are doing with SDL.
higher level?
by magic
With X-Box supporting DirectX only (and a special version at that) and PS2 not supporting OpenGL in general, some of the utility of SDL is lost. For example, I can write a SDL & OpenGL game that compiles and runs on OSX, Linux, and Win32. But window, input, thread and audio management are the least of my problems when moving to X-Box or PS2... I have to rewrite my whole graphics pipeline!
There are, of course, some very good commercial 3D API's that will abstract over this problem. One of the strengths of SDL has been that you have abstracted over the low level and have avoided getting into the sticky business of fighting OpenGL and Direct3D for the 3D API. This also limits the utility of SDL, however, because of the lack of a solid, free API for abstracting the 3D API.
Do you see SDL moving higher up the graphics pipeline in the future, or is it your intent to continue to avoid higher level 3D calls?
SL: I like side-stepping the 3D API issue. :)
I don't plan on adding a 3D API abstraction at this point, however I'm open to the idea of getting a single working 3D API that would cover the platforms you mention. My suspicion, with my limited experience with the PS2 hardware, is that it would take longer to write a functional API that could cover the differences in platforms than it would to get a working subset of OpenGL implemented. There's a reason that many PS2 developers write directly to the hardware.
Sony Development Costs
by debrain
Sony charges stiff fees for Playstation (2) development licenses. Was one of the primary focuses of SDL a way to circumvent these fees, broaden the PS2 platform, broaden the SDL platform, or broaden Linux as a viable game platform?
SL: Mostly the port was done as a fun toy. The intention was to broaden the SDL platform, and possibly allow the average person to write games that would run on the Sony Playstation.
End-user availability?
by DeadMeat (TM)
I brought this up before when the port was announced, but nobody knew the exact answer, so maybe I can get it straight from the horse's mouth ...
From what I understand, the PS2 Linux distro uses a proprietary, binary-only driver/library/program to allow programmers to access the PS2's graphics chip. My question is, how will this hinder end users' ability to get their hands on SDL-based PS2 games?
Does this mean they'll have to buy a copy of the $200 Linux development kit? Or are developers allowed to freely redistribute the graphics runtimes? (Or have you found some other way around this, perhaps by accessing the PS2 hardware without the binary runtime?)
I'm just afraid that most PS2 gamers (read: non-geeks) won't find SDL games too attractive if they have to buy a $200 Linux kit to play them.
SL: The SDL port runs on Sony's Public Beta of Linux on the Playstation 2. This public beta is loosely based on a derivative of RedHat Linux, and works just like any other Linux system. It boots from a memory card, but once booted, it can access the network and hard drive like a UNIX workstation. You can download software RPM archives that were built on Linux for the PS2 and install them normally. This is the way I distribute the SDL runtime packages and Maelstrom for the PlayStation 2.
Since the Linux beta is publicly available only in Japan, I'm not sure what would be included in a commercial product that would be released in the U.S..
Seriously, I'd love to be doing game design/programming for a living...
SDL is one of the better things to happen for the open source community though - I just wonder how many commercial gaming companies will pick it up and run with it - making all the Linux gamers happy.
BlackNova Traders
Since the Linux beta is publicly available only in Japan, I'm not sure what would be included in a commercial product that would be released in the U.S..
Y'know.. i keep seeing these comments from rather informed people talking about the PS2 linux, and then saying "but it's only available in japan, so i couldn't tell you anything about that".
Will someone please tell me: is or is not the ps2 linux currently freely available under the gpl? if so, where, and why do we need to wait for sony to port it? if not, why hasn't some japanese person set up a web site with sony's linux alterations there?
or are all of sony's linux patches done through closed-source kernel modules?
Don't any japanese people read slashdot? (I don't know why they would, i'm just
We do need more people doing work like this. I always thought that the cool thing about the Dreamcast was how much it had been hacked open...
/Brian
It's really easy to get involved with, and you can find a link to its homepage here
Good work Sam - you've really pulled one out of the hat here !
I don't know if you are reading the comments on this article, but I just thought that I would say hello. ;)
-Your anonymous friend who remembers when you were just learning C++ in the Tercero lab.
Well, I posted this yesterday but it got wiped out by the database crash. I'll try again:
I think many people agree that for Linux to become a popular and legitimate gaming platform, there needs to be some sort of breakthrough game that is released exclusively for Linux. If that were to happen, people might come to Linux like people came to CD-ROMs when Myst came out ("If you build it, they will come").
My question is, and I wish I had asked Sam, would it be harmful for Linux to develop this game on SDL? My reasoning is that if this great game was released for Linux and written in SDL, the cross-platform nature of SDL would guarantee that the game would be out for Windows and Macs in no time at all. Then there would be no reason to switch to Linux...
So then is it a good idea to develop Linux games for SDL? Should we worry about releasing games solely for Linux?
The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone else when we're uncool. -Crowe
I'm using one of those vid chips on MDK8. anything 3d (OPenGL, etc.) related locks up this box; tight. I love MDK, but it's NOT "out of the box".
Yes. I bought the MDK8 Pro-Pack. So "out of the box" is meant literally...
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
I think SDL is a great piece of code, I like it alot. But for mostly 3D apps, I think it might be worth to consider CrystalSpace, a powerful LGPL 3d engine. It works on Linux, Windows, MacOS, BeOS, and more. A PS2 port is in the work, too. I must admit that I have so far not used it; but I heard so many good things about it, i believe it is wort checking it out, if you intend to write a 3D applcation for many platforms.
Sony is going to be in a tizzy about this technology. While Sony has been very open about giving away middleware licenses, it's all been under NDA controls; Sony now officially has no control over what games get published on the PS2 and which ones do not. This is the worst possible situation for Sony; they make their profits based on royalty sales of third-party games. Now a third-party developer can develop PS2 games without getting any proprietary technology directly from Sony and without paying Sony a cent. There was recently a decision in Sony vs. Connectix in the US that makes it less likely that Sony can successfully pursue unlicensed game development. Given the $130 loss on each piece of hardware, this means that Sony is set to lose a big pile of cash. When Sony upper echelons get wind of this, the guy who released the Linux port in Japan will be demoted to toilet cleaner.
The comments disappeared because of the DB problems we experienced yesterday; wish they hadn't. I also wish to meet Zhang Ziyi under romantic circumstances.
Sorry about the typo, too -- it was the third time creating that story because of crashes, and it slipped through my tired fingers. My fault, fixed now.
Have a nice day.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I think the killer app won't be a Linux only game. It will be running anywhere and will most definitely be a multiplayer game.
.02 EUR
But it will be developed on Linux. And it will be an ongoing project with new releases every week, month or whatever.
And this means that the newest patches, bugfixes and additions will be available for Linux first and have to be ported to Windows.
And sinnce we all know that the kewl d00dZ who will play this game want to have the latest stuff first they will all switch to Linux. Just because the next patch will be released 1 day earlier or the new level editor is only available with Gtk or whatever libs and they don't get these running on WinXP.
They will start with dual booting. But that's the moment you got them into Linux and I bet a lot of them will stay, because some other tool (CD bruning, GAIM, whatever) is better than their windows counterpart, too.
That'll most probably be the turning point on the desktop. But it's a long way to get there.
My
You may need to tweak the settings on some machines- the same goes for Windows, it's just that Windows operates differently so that it's differs as to what card/motherboard/memory/etc. combination might need tuning to make it work.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The japanese PS2 and the american PS2 aren't compatable... the japanese linux kit won't run as is.
I do hear tell that the source to linux is available under the GPL, if you want to port it yourself by all means...
If that were to happen, people might come to Linux like people came to CD-ROMs when Myst came out ("If you build it, they will come").
As a linux zealot, my first response is hell yeah. Right on brother. The realistic response is yeah right. It's one thing to add a CD-ROM drive or video board to your hardware to play the latest game, it's another thing to learn a whole new operating system, no matter how cool the game looks. It's not like upgrading from 98 to 2000 to play some game, going from windows to linux is like a life changing type of thing if you're a windows only user.
Should we worry about releasing games solely for Linux?
Unfortunately, this is a money question. Can any comany recoup it's development costs by releasing only on linux? Maybe. I tend to think that they're just aren't enough people out there playing games on linux to make the kind of numbers worth it. Look at Loki. They're doing a great job, but struggling. Of course, what things be different if they had newer/better games. Not everyone likes Civ and FPS type stuff.
Blizzard, right now, is one of the top game companies. If they did something on the order of Diablo III on linux only, I'm willing to bet that we would see a major shift of people using linux. You're going to need something that major to make people convert in my opinion.
Personally, I'm going to wait and see how Neverwinter Nights handles it. I've pre-ordered mine, have you? That's the closest thing us Linux people have to a killer game that's not rumor or speculation.
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
Good interview, but for anyone looking for dead easy Direct3D game development, check http://www.blitz3d.co.uk/
Because it's simple
SDL takes the concept of KISS to the appropriate level. SDL makes things as simple as you can make them but no simpler. Everything you need is there and stuff that isn't you can implement yourself. I've used SDL_Image and SDL_mixeer and SDL_Mpeg and they are all wonderfully simple things yet they give you enough flexibility to implement what might be missing. It's so hard to maintain balance between flexibility and completness in a library but SDL makes an amazing job at that. Of course there is some rough edges and a bug or two but overall it's an outstanding API that anyone who wants to write games should have a look at.
DirectX might be more complete but by the time you learn it all Microsoft will have released a new version (again) which will render some of your knowledge obsolete. KISS definitely isn't the prinicple behind DirectX
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
my brain can't understand all this techno mumbo jumbo :)
I guess you are saying this dude has conjured up some awsome new technology which lets any old dude make stuff for Sony's way cool new PS2. Song is gonna lose a bundle of cash man. Damn this rocks!>:-)
I'm glad that like 1/10 legitimate posts I make get dropped because of the fucking lameness filter. Yay. And it works soo well, to.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The yyerror() function is called by YACC if it finds an error. We sim- ply output the message passed, but there are smarter things to do. See the 'Further reading' section at the end. The function yywrap() can be used to continue reading from another file. It is called at EOF and you can than open another file, and return 0. Or you can return 1, indicating that this is truly the end. For more about this, see the 'How do Lex and YACC work internally' chapter. Then there is the main() function, that does nothing by set everything in motion. The last line simply defines the tokens we will be using. These are output using y.tab.h if YACC is invoked with the '-d' option. Hello
I think I can answer your questions.
The PS2 Linux distro comes on a DVD from Sony.
It contains special modules that are loaded at boot time into memory to allow access to some of the hardware. It also contains the boot loader.
Don't expect those pieces to be free or open-sourced in anyone's lifetime.
The reason it's only available in Japan is because the kit is using a special PCMCIA card that has the ethernet connector and connector to the external hard drive unit. Only the first few models of the PS2 in Japan have the PC card slot.
New Japanese models and the US/European models only have an internal expansion bay, which is where the hard drive will plug in when it gets released. So it's different hardware.
Sony has made no commitment to ship a newer variant of this kit for the newer PS2 hardware.
It is not available for free, since you have to pay Sony for the extra hardware pieces.
The GPL sources will do you no good. Sony
has quite a bit provided as binary modules.
They have provided quite a bit of source however,
just not all of it. All things considered, it's a very good start.