Lisp as an Alternative to Java

Joseph Dale writes "Lisp as an Alternative to Java is a detailed and well-reasoned study comparing Lisp to Java and C++ in terms of execution time, memory consumption, and developer effort. The author, Erann Gat, was the principal software architect for the Mars Science Microrover, the prototype for the Mars Pathfinder rover."

Comments

Interesting, but flawed?

[tkrotchko]

Its interesting to see the results of a short study, even though the author admits to the flaw in his methodolody (primarily the subjects were self-chosen). Still, I don't think that's a fatal flaw, and I think his results do have some validity.

However, I think the author misses a more important issue: development involving a single programmer for a relatively small task isn't the point for most organizations. Maintainability and a large pool of potential developers (for example) are a significant factor in deciding what language to use. LISP is a fabulous language, but try to find 10 programmers at a reasonable price in the next 2 weeks. Good luck.

Also, while initial development time is important, typically testing/debug cycles are the costly part of implementation, so that's what should weigh on your mind as the area that the most gains can be made. Further, large projects are collaborative efforts, so the objects and libraries available for a particular language plays a role in how quickly you can produce quality code.

As an aside, it would've been interesting to see the same development done with experienced Visual Basic programmer. My guess is he/she would have the lowest development cycle, and yet it wouldn't be my first choice for a large scale development project (although at the risk of being flamed, its not a bad language for just banging out a quick set of tools for my own use).

Some of thing things I believe are more important when thinking about a programming language:

1) Amenable to use by team of programmers
2) Viability over a period of time (5-10 years).
3) Large developer base
4) Cross platform - not because I think cross-platform is a good thing by itself; rather, I think its important to avoid being locked-in to a single hardware or Operating System vendor.
5) Mature IDE, debugging tools, and compilers.
6) Wide applicability

Computer languages tend to develop in response to specific needs, and most programmers will probably end up learning 5-10 languages over the course of their career. It would be helpful to have a discussion of the appropriate roles for certain computer languages, since I'm not sure any computer languages is better than any other.

Re:I'm a professional who uses Java

[Lambdaknight]

Well, people don't know it or have prejudices against it like you. And there's noone hyping it to the end.

The reason why it's not hyped is because Lisp HAD a hype in its history whose decline happened to the same time (and was mostly induced by) the AI winter.

Most Lisp programmers from that time have still a bad taste in their mouths because of that hype (mind, that the hype was over was not because Lisp is a bad language but because the AI winter) so they won't start another.

Younger Lisp programmers (like myself) are both happy and unhappy about the lack of a hype.

Happy because that means you have a much more undisturbed basis on which you can settle your community. The community efforts and activities are easily overseeable and you always know what's going on.

Unhappy because the community isn't very large and so activities DO happen, but more slowly than in the Java or Perl community because we have fewer people.

As an example: that article is from 1999 and is widely known in the Lisp community... but only today it has been published on Slashdot.

If someone writes an article about Perl, it is released immediately here.

Keep in mind that 2 years are an eternity in computer terms.

Re:It's about the API

[Wavicle]

He was comparing apples to oranges near as I can tell. I can't actually read the original paper so it is kind of hard to tell, but the Lisp group was all self selected experts. Read carefully the stated problem and explain to me how anyone could take 63 hours to complete it in Java? The average experience of their Java sample set was 7.7 years!?!!!!! Didn't Java come out in 1995? Where did they find a panel of OAK seed developers? After re-reading that section it looks like he interchanges "years of programming experience" with "years of experience in that language". So why weren't we given the average number of years with experience in that particular language?

Secondly he was using a task which Lisp is very good at, and well optimized for - list processing. People working in Lisp tend to be well exposed to this kind of problem.