Adam Fedor of GNUstep Says Stuff

JgiSaw writes "GNUstep provides an Object-Oriented application development framework and tool set for use on a wide variety of computer platforms. It is based on the original OpenStep specification provided by NeXT, Inc. (now owned by Apple and endorced into MacOSX). OSNews is hosting an interview with Adam Fedor, of the GNUstep project, where Adam mentions among others that GnuStep has support for the MacOSX API too, which will make porting MacOSX applications to Linux much easier."

Comments

Re:macos x api

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe the idea is to be ahead of the game instead of playing the typical open source catch up game.

Forget porting, how good is the API?

[astrashe]

How does this graphics portion of the API compare to MFC?

I'm not a strong GUI programmer, but I've heard people say that MFC is more robust and powerful than the APIs we have in Linux. But I've also heard people rave about programming NeXT.

Is anyone here able to put ideology aside and give a comparison based on real experience?

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can give you an unbiased opinion:

NeXT API is a lot like java (well thought out OO design), but without the heavy abstraction to support the native UI underneath, and without the bytecode crap.

MFC is like having sex while wearing 7 condoms.

Most XWindows widget sets (the exception being KDE) are like a rusted out '83 station wagon, hed together with duct tape and bondo, carrying half a dozen pimple faced teenagers. The floors are covered with evidence of fast-food drive thru visits, and there's a funky odor. Chances are, the driver will stall it at the next stop sign, and the muffler needs replacing. The occupants, however, are glad they don't have to walk.

There are major apps... coming soon ;-)

[Ffakr]

Well, I'd have to take issue with the claim that there are no native cocoa apps.

This may be technically true, there are some very nice Mac OSX only apps that although not 'big name' are none the less quite nice. The products at Omnigroup are all nice. Stone Studios products are nice but they could use a nice how to book.

On the near horizon, Adobe Illustrator 10 and Quark 5 are nearing release (both demonstrated at MWNY in July) and they are both, to the best of my knowledge, Cocoa native. They both look VERY, VERY cool.

Office for OSX will also be Cocoa native... not that MS will want to empower Linux, but I believe that MS departments will go for profit where ever it is found... Just look at the Mac market back around 96 when every was SURE that the Mac was dead... MS releases a PPC native Office, mainly because Office was pulling in about 400 Million a year on the Mac way back then.

I think the could only be good for Linux... it will hopefully be good for the Mac OSX community. Tools written here will be very portable to the Mac.

Now if Apple was REALLY smart (hey, they could be once or twice a decade), they would support this project in a big way and they would fund the porting of their _very_ nice free development enviornment to Linux... perhaps built on this foundation.

Apple, you could gain HUGE amounts of respect in the linux community by doing this. You will also gain access to more industrial strength Linux tools for OSX, an OS that will be sound at release 10.1 but which will still be in desperate need of diverse apps.

Steven (stupid Ffakr)

Re:There are major apps... coming soon ;-)

[znu]

Illustrator, Quark 5 and Office will not be Cocoa applications. Most major Mac OS X apps will be Carbon apps, because it's much easier to move existing Mac apps to Carbon. Perhaps major new apps will be written in Cocoa, but major new apps don't come along all that often.

GNUStep is still a pretty big deal. This is a kick-ass API. Assuming the open source equivalents of Interface Builder and Project Builder can match or beat the Apple tools, GNUStep will be the absolute best way to develop Linux applications.

GNUStep has been in development *forever*

[x mani x]

I remember watching the development of GNUStep from back when I just started using Linux (95? 96?). It seems to be a project that has been slowly in development for years now, yet unfortunately hampered by a lack of support from the OSS community.

I wouldn't blame anyone, though. Most people are not familiar or even interested in the NeXTStep/OpenStep platform. The technology is definately strange, based on Objective-C and a postscript-based rendering engine, but this platform was (is) years ahead of its time.

I have OpenStep 4.2 for intel, and it is probably the coolest OS ever. At one point I got a copy of an early OS X beta for intel, and it was basically OpenStep 4.2 recompiled with a Macos-looking widget set and a menubar instead of the Wharf ("Dock" in WindowMaker land). The look and feel of OpenStep is far and beyond any UNIX or Windows desktop in terms of sheer quality and useability (many believe the Windows widget set is imitative of the NeXT look to the point that NeXT could have sued Microsoft).

It is sad to think that if Redhat decided to throw its weight behind GNUStep instead of GNOME, we probably would have had a full-fledged, slick NeXTStep/OpenStep/Macos X clone right now layered on top of any UNIX kernel. This is just too bad. I think pretty soon I will reinstall OpenStep 4.2 on my Intel box, and I'm definately investing in one of those G4's to find out what those old NeXT developers (considered some of the most innovative and talented GUI developers in the world) have been up to.

Clarification on Cocoa vs. Carbon apps

[TheInternet]

I've posted similar messages in this topic, but wanted to get it up to a higher level to resolve a lot of the confusion...

Even in a finished state, GNUStep does not do as much to get apps to Linux as some people seem to think Or, at least, not the apps they have in mind. If you're at all familiar with Mac OS X development, you know that there are four APIs that the system considers "native": Cocoa, Carbon, Java and BSD. Any program written to these APIs receives it own 2GB of protected address space (yes, even individual Java apps), as well other modern OS features. Classic is the Mac OS 9/8 compatibility environment. Sort of an "emulator on steroids," to use a cliche.

GNUStep provides a implementation of the OpenStep spec, which is what Cocoa is based on. Theoretically, this means that Mac OS X apps written in Cocoa can be easily ported. But the vast majority of the brand name apps have been or are being ported to Mac OS X are written in Carbon. The long list of Carbon apps includes:

- Office
- Explorer
- Macromedia Freehand
- Acrobat
- GoLive
- Illustrator
- Bryce
- Corel Knockout
- Corel Draw
- Painter (Corel/MetaCreation)
- Maya
- Quicken
- Netscape

Quite a few people have posted messages to this topic mistakeningly claiming some Carbon apps were actually Cocoa apps, including Office. I'm not sure what would have caused this confusion. Part of the problem may be that you cannot tell the difference between a Cocoa app and and a Carbon app unless you really know what to look for. Both use Aqua UI widgets. Some individuals might also be making the assumption that if an app is "Mac OS X only" (meaning does not run on Mac OS 9), then it must be written in Cocoa, which is not true.

So why write in Carbon, you ask?

Most existing Mac developers port apps to Carbon because it's easier than a complete rewrite in Cocoa. It also means that developers can keep reasonably similar (in some cases, identical) code bases for both Mac OS X and Mac OS 9. This is important because most of their customers will be on Mac OS 9 until the transition is complete. Alias|Wavefront was not porting an existing Mac app, but opted to use Carbon for Maya because they have existing C++ code (and developers?) they want to use. Cocoa frameworks can currently only be accessed from Objective-C or Java.

Over time, you may see developers do rewrites in Cocoa, because in many ways it is a better environment. Ther resurrection of Objective-C++ would probably help this. But the more Apple does to improve and refine Carbon, the less immediate the need will be to do rewrites in Cocoa.

So that's that. Now, getting back to GNUStep....

From this interview, it sounds like the GNUStep folks have the Foundation side of Cocoa pretty well in hand, but it looks like AppKit (all of the GUI stuff) is not done. But even after they finish everything that has been around since OpenStep, I'm curious how they're going to resolve all sorts of new stuff. Specifically, I'm thinking about things like QuickTime (used for much more than video), Quartz (transparency/compositing, PDF generation/manipulation, text rendering), and even stuff like AppleScript/Apple Events. These are things that Mac OS X developers are and will be using, but I can't imagine they're going to be very easily to implement from scratch on the GNUStep side. I understand that there are perhaps counterparts, but how comparable will they be? I'm genuinely curious about this.

I praise Adam and his colleagues for their efforts. But at the same time, /.ers shouldn't let their expectations get out of hand. At the moment, GNUStep is no more helpful in getting MS Office to Linux than is Mac OS X's use of BSD libraries.

- Scott