Browser Bindings for Python, Perl, and other Languages?

Garfycx asks: "Hi everybody! This week Slashdot linked to a story about Java and its roll over C/C++. While reading it I remembered one of the first strategies to make Java a de-facto standard - the browser-applet. as far as I know it did not make it, and I don't see many of them in cyberspace. But in combination with servlets they may come up again. I am not quite sure who is in need of applets but I wondered why there never was a browser-plugin for languages like Python or Perl. I would like to hear about reasons why there is no effort to expand the capabilities of websites with language-plugins. Couldn't there be a universal CORBA-like plugin for Mozilla to be used by most languages or such?"

Comments

It exists on Windows: ActiveScripting

[Krelnik]

This already exists on Windows, it's called ActiveScripting. Basically, the API's that both VBScript and JScript (JavaScript) use to integrate themselves into the browser are exposed to others as well. If you follow the API guidelines, then you can use any scripting language from any hosting program including IE.

Of course, the problem is that a web site owner can't assume that an end user has a given language runtime installed. So that limits how you can use it. But it could have great applications on intranets where you have more control over the client situation.

ActiveState has versions of Perl, Python and TCL that follow these API's on Windows. Here is a session they were going to do at the cancelled O'Reilly P2P conference on using this stuff

security

[johnjones]

how do you sandbox the implementation ?

java has lots of features to run in a sandbox and verifying the bytecodes + grant access if you ask for it

this would have to be added to any other implemtation

fankly I dont need another way of downloading rubish

text is enough to conveiw most information well why do you need anything else?
(pictures are handled by jpeg and PNG )

so WHY ?

games I think are the most use I have played lots of flash and applet golf games on the net but appart from that I have never used applets

oh and I think that phones running a java VM(so you can play games appart from snake) will be more prolific over the next 2 years so that battle is over

regards

john jones

Basic Philosophical Difference

[NutscrapeSucks]

IE ships with ActiveX/COM support, which provides a language-independent mechanism to plug anything you want into your browser. The user gets code-signing and some level of download control, but ultimately there's no 'sandbox' to prevent that code from doing what it wants (deleting your home directory, e-mail bomb, etc). They've been ripped for the security implications, as anyone who reads Slashdot knows.

Netscape chose the safe route and only provided Java applet support. This relies on the Java security model to protect the user through sandboxing from anything that they might automatically download, but locks you into Java. Mozilla/NS6 may allow some sort of XPCOM application to be downloaded and installed, but it's not as seamless as ActiveX.

The important point is that you don't get 'unsafe' languages like C++ and Perl in your browser without the security implications that everyone's roasted Microsoft's ass over.

The MS .NET approach will be the hybrid. While you still have a Java-like runtime that has a security model, at least you won't be locked into a particular language.

Re:Basic Philosophical Difference

[dead_penguin]

... The only major drawback is that you must use AWT and/or JFC bindings to get anything on the screen.

I'm not sure about Jython or Scheme, but Java applets can communicate back to the browser window and use it to render html that they generate. In many cases, this is a much more appropriate way of displaying things on the screen, and isn't quite as ugly looking as AWT can be.

Re:Java as a client side web applet is dead!

[ZanshinWedge]

Back in the early days, everyone lauded Java as a means to add multimedia content to the web. However, specialized system (flash/shockwave) for this have proved so much better at this than Java that Java is essentially dead in this area. If someone is using Java for multimedia on a webpage nowadays it simply means they haven't learned how to use flash yet.

TCL

[redhog]

There is a plug-in for TCL/TK. I don't know about Python and other languages (e.g., Scheme and other LISPs). But perheaps, no one else cares about stupid web-crap :]

One Example

[maggard]

Apple has had it's " Open Scripting Architecture " for a number of years. Apple's own AppleScript or Perl, Python, Java, JavaScript, Tcl/tk, etc. can all plug in and be used throughout the system. Indeed with the vast majority of MacOS applications being AppleScript-able they're all also automagically Perlable, Pythonable, Javable, JavaScriptable, Tcl/Tkable, etc. As all of the popular MacOS web browsers also support this it's not difficult to script things via web-pages.

As this same functionality is in MacOS X (and I believe in it's peer Open Source " Darwin ") the technology is availiable for others to review, compare/contrast, even appropriate. Whatever you think of Apple it's an interesting technology and has already proven it's worth with almost all MacOS applications being made AppleScriptable (and hence everything-else scriptable) for years.

Re:Java as a client side web applet is dead!

[Anml4ixoye]

Umm..actually, yes it does. The scripting allowed in Flash, especially Flash 5.0, is amazing. We have built chat clients, news tickers, etc. The other great thing about it is that it can interact with whatever Server-side scripting language you are using, be it ASP, Cold Fusion, Perl, etc.

I think the challenge is that because Flash is still new, lots of people are just using it to use it. But just like with any other system, you will start to see more and more applications built out of it that utilize its true power.

Web Client Language Plugins

[the eric conspiracy]

I would like to hear about reasons why there is no effort to expand the capabilities of websites with language-plugins.

Because the idea sucks. The place for code is on the server, not the client, for the following reasons:

1. Security
2. Compatability.
3. Portability.
4. Separation of presentation and logic.

The only time where it is possible to put logic on a client and get reliable performance is where you have complete control of the client's software and hardware - i.e. a closed computing environment.

That is NOT the web.

Smalltalk and Oberon have them...

[RevAaron]

Squeak Smalltalk has a plugin available for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Dolphin Smalltalk has a plugin as well. However, like Dolphin Smalltalk itself, it is Win32 only.

One of the bigger, more business oriented Smalltalks, VisualWorks, also has a plugin. It looks like it too is Win32 only, but VisualWorks itself is cross-platform, and runs on Windows, Mac OS, and a big number of Unices.

The coolest plug-in for a language I've ever seen has got to be Oberon's Juice, by far. Unlike the Java and Squeak VM plug-ins, which take bytecode for their respective VMs, the Juice plugin takes pre-parsed Oberon code and compiles and executes it on the fly. This makes for really fast applets. I tried it a while back and it took a heckuva lot less time for Juice to download, compile, and execute the applet than it took for a comparitive Java applet to start up. Really cool stuff. However, it seems it's not been maintained in a while, and is Windows and Mac only. Seeing how Oberon itself has source available (IIRC), I'm sure that some Oberon enthusiast who wanted to get a generized Unix version going of Juice could do so.