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What Can You Do When Defrauded on eBay?
"Most of us followed the proper procedures. You wait 30 days to file a fraud claim on ebay. Then you have the option of getting $175 at most from eBay's insurance. It softens the blow, but for many it's not anywhere close to what they lost. Contacting local authorities hasn't accomplished anything nor has filing with the FBI. Many people who paid via PayPal did get a refund, but others paid via checks.
eBay has been one of the bright spots of the internet. As a NYSE listed company, you'd expect more to be done about helping customers. I hope this question comes as a warning to be more cautious on eBay or not to bid for items on ebay over $400 without escrow protection. I've learned my lesson not to do business with anyone who doesn't use paypal or billpoint. But regardless of what we learned, most of us feel helpless because eBay has not done more to get our money back. Any suggestions?"
One particularly notorious action concerned a certain 'haunted' painting. Word quickly spread over the net and attracted 10's of thousands of viewers. You can read the details here.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Then my friends got ripped off by this dude. Lots of positive feedback from $1 BullShit auctions, and he sold them an indash MP3 player. It was supposed to be for this guys birthday from his girlfriend. It never showed. They've been nothing but shafted from E-bay. or E-gay as he now refers to it. He used to be one of those E-bay people too, that made quite a bit of money on the site selling stuff and what not, Honestly. But now hes turned off pretty much for good.
What, me worry?
I remember back a couple years ago when eBay frauds were big news...some article was suggesting that whenever possible involve the US Mail system. Have them mail you a quote, or mail payment information or such.
The thing about it is, mail fraud is a federal crime which much higher penalties than other forms of fraud (Internet fraud being generally unclassified). If you get ripped off online, you can try to complain to your local police, or the police in the criminal's jurisdiction (if you can find it) but you will probably get nothing.
In you involve the mail system, then the it becomes a federal issue that is tackled by the Office of the Postmaster General and/or the FBI?
Don't quote me on this, but it would be definitely something to ask your local post office about. If a seller is legit, they should have no problem putting some information on paper and mailing it to you, right?
Other than that...the other thing that was suggested is use a credit card. Paypal had a big fight with credit card agencies on whether people can dispute Paypal charges for fraudulent auctions, but I seem to remember that the courts came down on the side of consumers (yes they could dispute) forcing Paypal to get insurance.
Sorry I couldn't find a link, but maybe it helps narrow down your searching?
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
On several occasions, shady-sounding individuals have backed out of auction deals with me, after I suggested using Tradenable. To me, that's the surest sign of a huckster and a good indication that escrow works.
It is just this type of naivete that allows so many people to get ripped off on Ebay. PayPal does not protect you. The only way they will refund is if the seller cannot prove delivery (and only in the US). And the seller can send you a rock and PayPal is fine with that!
The Ebay $200 insurance is a joke. You only have a chance to get $175 back and that's only when you spend many hours with their stupid hard-to-use forms . Ebay it self favors Ebay not the protection of buyers or sellers.
Same goes for the way Ebay removes Microsoft auctions. They are in bed with Microsoft so what else would you expect?
Escrow services work most of the time but they are not cheap or guaranteed. Bottom line if you can't afford to lose it don't buy on online auctions.
What about all of the bad buyers?
I both buy and sell on eBay. I've stopped listing auctions with the BuyItNow! option because too many of my auctions have been ended when a brand new bidder (i.e. someone who joined eBay within the last couple of days) comes and uses BuyItNow! to end the auction, then disappears completely and is never heard from/never logs into eBay again. Negative feedback doesn't help in this case, because these bidders inevitably have a feedback of zero or at best one and don't care if they lose one point.
Even without BuyItNow, I've had a number of auctions close and then never heard from the high bidder again, forcing me to relist and costing me time and money. In the worst case, one of my auctions closed at just over $300, the buyer e-mailed me a simply said "I changed my mind I don't want it sorry" and when I left negative feedback saying so, I of course got the retaliatory "FRAUD! Took my money and never delivered!" feedback. Legal action got the feedback removed, but that cost me as well.
I think that eBay should require a bank account number as a pre-requisite for buying or bidding. You agree when you join that if you default on a bid or if you are accused by n people of fraud, your assets will be frozen until the situation can be resolved and those involved can get the money owed to them.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
That is some serious fraud. I would imagine that EBay would have a vested interest in prosecuting this guy to the fullest extent because he lessens the value of their product. Defrauding 55 people is also a federal crime because it crosses state lines. I'm sure the FBI should be notified as well.
I reported him to the following agencies:
- United States Postal Service
- Internet Fraud Center
- FBI
- Discover Card
- Ebay
- Billpoint
- PayPal
This guy is currently wishing he never heard of me, with several charges levelled against him, including:
- Mail fraud
- Credit card fraud
- Grand larceny
- Plus the fact this was all interstate, making it worse.
I also tracked his ass down using every known resource on the Internet, and ended up with his home address, home phone, AERIAL PHOTOS OF HIS HOUSE and more...
Needless to say, my money has been safely returned and he's in a world of shit. Sorry, asshole.
There are good reasons for that.
First, ebay's much hearalded feedback system is constructed to discourage negative feedback. The text on the feedback page pleads with you not to leave negative feedback. If you decide to leave negative feedback anyway you must go through an extra confirmation page that is not required for positive feedback.
Second, it opens you to retaliation from the other party in the form of negative feedback. The only negative feedback I ever received was retaliation from the only seller I ever left negative feedback for. Investigating his feedback history I discovered that he only ever left negative feedback, and most of that was retaliation for negative feedback he received.
2 years and 2 months ago a organised group set up several 10-20 article auctions of office 97 pro and came through on the deals for a while too build up confidence. I unfortunately bought a copy (for my father for Christmass) about 2 weeks after they decided to hammer E-bay with several very large volume auctions that they then refused to supply. After 5 months of back and forward garbage with E-Bay, (Including the fact their consumer fraud page failed for around 6 weeks straight with errors.) a complaint was made by another australian through our consulate regarding non delivery after payments were sent through the mail. Not long after I received emails from a special agent NNNNNN requesting all possible information.
:)
About 14 months ago I was informed a couple had been arrested in Texas on no less than 850 cases of mail fraud as many people had refused to use credit cards but rather used mailed money orders and cheques. I later saw reports in the IT section of our national paper discussing the conviction of a texas couple for E-Bay auction based mail fraud. I assumed that was them. I believe they were given 800 years of jail time, they were to serve a minimum of 5 years with the remainder to run concurrently. The fraud was believed to have netted over $200 000. The whole case was one of the first to actually progress through the courts, as an example. I guess they were lucky, being held in Texas they may or got the chair
When I mentioned it to my father he was a little concerned over them having to do time. How else though would you deter people from doing it again?
Between the TWO who paid by USPS we crossed the felony fraud line for them. It took them about 2 months to find him (he skipped his address and skipped on his roommates too). Though all I got back was ebay insurance (so far), USPS PIS did find him and jail him. I've not heard if they'll go for recovering all of our money, but eBay was very friendly with the USPS setting up the case.
Moral: NEVER PAY BY ANY MEANS BUT USPS. People who only accept PayPal are likely to be trouble because they know that there can't be a USPS inspector knocking on their door if they exclude that mechanisim for payment.
-- Multics
I have been thoroughly screwed on a PayPal transaction, and I'll likely never use the service again over it because of the way PayPal "handled" it.
I purchased (or should I say, paid for) a GeForce 3 for roughly $400 from a certain merchant (that now appears to be defunct, imagine that). They were a verified user on PayPal, everything seemed legit. Two weeks pass and I get nothing, not even a notice of shipping delay. After a whole slew of emails back and forth, finally ending with me buying the card somewhere else and telling them to cancel the order, the "merchant" just stopped responding altogether.
So I took the matter to PayPal. Their response: "We have investigated your claim and found the seller to be at fault. However, we are unable to recover any funds because the seller's account balance is zero. Thank you, have a nice day."
What in the blue fsck is that? The fact that I played by every one of their rules, and they even admit I was defrauded by a so-called "verified" seller, and yet still refuse to extend any consumer protection to me, ticks me off even more. The SELLER should be the one biting the bullet, not me. I did my part of the bargain. He didn't.
So short moral of the story: don't use PayPal to pay for anything you think might have even the most remote chance of going awry. In the end it's no different than sending cash.
I am still trying to get that $400 back -- apparently the next step is going straight to my bank and disputing the charge, although I hear PayPal loves when people do that. Well, they can have all the love I'm willing to give on the matter, for being oh so helpful with an obvious fraud case.
If you think you've been defrauded by someone using your credit card, you'd have to be cracked to use it again yourself.
This happened to me recently. Someone used not only my citibank card number, but also figured out my address and phone number (creepy...) and ordered some "virtual phone cards." I immediately notified citibank, who terminated that account, and rolled my balance over into a new one. I had new cards within days.
Furthermore, if you take advantage of it, being defrauded can make it that much more difficult for someone to steal your financial/personal information again. If you put a fraud watch on your SSN with the three major credit agencies (Equifax, Experian, and Trans Union), you will stop receiving pre-approved credit offers, and all institutions requesting to extend credit in your name must speak to you personally to confirm first.
Furthermore, if you've been defrauded, you can probably get a free copy of your credit report, and that can potentially help you clean up a whole other category of problem: inaccurate (but not fraudulent) credit information.
In short, disputing charges only puts you out for a few days, and is totally worth the hassle if you've genuinely been swindled. If you do it repeatedly, you might run into trouble, but that's because you become rightfully suspected of either taking advantage of the system, or handling your cards insecurely.
I have also been a victim of EBay fraud. Probably not from the same person, since this one was in the UK. (I can't give any more details out YET for legal reasons - I'm in the middle of a claim. But believe me, when this is over he will be exposed to the extent available under the law)
I tried to buy a Siemens mobile phone, which ended up over £50, sent the cheque to the seller, and he never sent the item. Repeated emails were ignored. His phone number was invalid.
VERY annoying.
When he first started, he had a negative feedback rating, but it was only one comment about not accepting Escrow (he claimed that he didn't know it defaulted to accepting it.) That should've set off alarm bells I guess, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since it was such a minor issue, bidded and won.
More interestingly, after the end of the transaction, he gained positive feedback. That's one good thing out of it anyway, since you can't claim fraud insurance from someone with negative feedback.
What confuses me is HOW he got the positive feedback. They were all from people who seem to have a good reputation too - some with stars next to their names.
So it doesn't make sense! Why would they praise him/her? Yet I'm 99% sure it's fraud - he gives a different name and address in his profile, the phone number is invalid, and he stopped replying to emails the moment I started questioning him on why the package hadn't arrived.
Maybe some of these criminals set up more than one account, and bid highly on each other... then add positive feedback to each other's accounts (without exchanging items or money of course).
In which case, the feedback system is total bull that means nothing whatsoever.
I really don't trust EBay now.
Any better suggestions?
And you're sure that this was fraud and not some sort of freak accident, seller-in-the-hospital sort of thing? There has been many posts here on how to nail the seller, but I guess I would ask how you're sure? In the same situation, I'd try every possible avenue to have voice contact with the offending party. Emails & email adresses are often broken/changed/or misunderstood.
r tp age
Then, assuming due diligence,
http://crs.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayisapi.dll?crssta
That's eBay's fraud report form.
I had a problem of a seller not shipping and did the same sort of backtracking to find other victims. After using eBay's seller info and some Anywho research, I was able to track down the seller directly. Faced with that information and the prospect of group action, I got the seller to finally provide what they had sold. The key was just starting the "machinery" promptly and as completely as possible. YMMV
nonsig. unsig. desig.
If it were done as a trust network it would be much more meaningful.
Weight the trust passed on to people you certify (via feedback) using both the value of the item and the trust of the certifier.
A more useful metric of how trust worthy someone is would then be based on a combination of:
Do this and keep seperate ratings for buying and selling and enjoy the results!
Why use a service that does not guarantee its merchandise? Why is no blame being directed toward eBay itself? Strange.
did you get aerial photos of his house?
just curious
This comes very late in the discussion and may be ignored and/or redundant, but one piece of advice: Don't pay much attention to the *positive* feedback, that the big sellers have gob loads of, instead watch out for *negative* feedback, and look at each and every negative statement to see if it warrants attention.
I just decided I'm probably not going to bid in an auction that has a seller who has >1000 positive points, but >30 negative points...
I've both bought and sold a LOT of stuff on eBay over the years, and I've generally been very pleased with the outcome.
However, I've had a few problems with buyers of my products which resulted from them not reading the details before bidding (or ignoring them).
If an item does not state anyplace in the auction that it's "functional" or "in working order", you can assume it to be broken/malfunctioning. If you're not really sure, email the person and *ASK* before bidding!
I've occasionally sold some items that were known to be in not-so-great condition, but I've always stated "as-is" clearly in my auctions when they were like this. I also started the bids at a very low dollar amount. Still, I've had winning bidders of these things get all bent out of shape and threaten legal action before when the product wasn't shiny new and working perfectly after they got it.
The fact is, there are good reasons why people might actually want to buy broken products! Maybe they want to gut it for repair parts, or they want to take on the challenge of fixing it themselves?
Also, if you're buying a smaller-cost item ($100 or less), keep in mind that UPS will typically insure it for up to that amount at no additional cost over normal ground delivery. Therefore, there's no excuse for someone to ship you an item via UPS and have it completely uninsured. (I use the UPS "Worldship" shipping software all the time, and even though it defaults to entering a 0 amount for insurance, it doesn't add anything to the price if you bump that up to 100.00.)
It takes some time, but you can use legal process to make ISPs, Mail Boxes Etc, credit card companies, and the USPS disclose identity info.
The original poster has come up with about the best way I can think of to get back at some of the slime who defraud others through eBay - contact other victims and organize.
Example? My ex-brother-in-law, a complete slime, sold coins through eBay. The coins were either overgraded by him or not delivered at all. Eventually, through the tireless efforts of his ex-wife, my sister, a wonderful woman who you just don't want to piss off and who was determined to pay him back for his theft of several hundred thousand dollars worth of her property as well as his bigamy, the authorities in Texas began to take notice. She organized the victims, put them in touch with the detective handling the complaints, and prodded them to support the lengthy prosecution process.
He was eventually charged with 42 counts of felony fraud. Last week, he made a deal with the prosecutors. He made full monetary restitution to all 42 victims, got his charges reduced to class A misdemeanors for fraud, plead guilty to those misdemeanors, and was sentenced to 6 months probation. As a result, he's lost his precious license to carry a concealed handgun and his life will be tied to the whims of his probation officer for quite a while. For a guy like him who can't stand any structure in his life, that puts him just one slip-up away from a parole vioation and jail time. I'm looking forward to it. Timeline from first victim to final disposition: about three years.
My advice: The law can work. You just have to be patient and motivated.
I've been defrauded for 600$ buying a computer that was never shipped. I emailed him and he kept saying that there were problems and that he would get the shipment out to me as soon as possible.
I've closed a few auctions, and never heard from the person again, sometimes they email me a few times, but they never pay for it, so I never ship it. This leads me to feel that as a ebay seller, I will never ship an item before it is paid for.I've sent things internationally and then had problems with the shipping companies or with the customs in the countries that I've sent it to, which has lead me to stop selling internationally.
I've had a number of people back out of auctions, saying that they changed their minds. In these cases I try to at least get them to pay for the listing cost of the auction and the fees that ebay charges me for the auction closing. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
But through all of these thing I still use ebay to buy things and sell thing. I follow some simple rules, which everyone here has already elaborated on (use usps, use credit cards, use escrow if its a high dollar auction).
If people stop using online auctions because they can't trust the sellers or buyers, then it is a real blow to what we geeks feel is possible. The change that online auctions brings, is worth a little hassle as we try to get the kinks worked out. Then then again I always felt that the internet was better before the www and before it was called the internet.. But alas for the good ol' days... when it was all geeks online before geek became THE thing and was no longer geekly... but a business Opportunity.