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What Do You Do When CS Isn't Fun Any More?
wonderless asks: "Long ago and far away, I thought that I was going to be a Great Geek, and that I was going to provoke a revolution in the computer industry--and indeed, the world--with my mastery of technology. I could hardly wait to throw myself into an intense, highly technical curriculum and shine. But as I said, that was long ago and far away. Now I'm one semester away from graduation, with a 3.5 average overall and a lackluster 3.0 in CS, and I'm liking it less and less every day. I used to be able to say that at least it pays well, but now I can't even take solace in that. I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing. I'd like nothing better than to recapture the feeling of joy I used to get out of doing this, and to once again be able to say I'm doing what I love. What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?"
I have two degrees, one in CS and one in Archaeology. CS isn't what I want my career to be in, but I can take my computer skills and development knowledge and apply it to archaeology problems.
I like computers and archaeology a lot, though like I said, I don't want to be stuck in the computer industry for the rest of my life (can you say: Middle management, and other un-fun things when you get old?). But I like it enough that I can take it and mix it with something else I like and come up with a winning combination.
Talk to your advisors, too. That's what they get paid for. Mostly, though, you just have to go out there and do what you want to do, money be damned.
Good luck!
Sam Jooky
Welcome to the real world my friend.
Unless you go to work for a company doing research in CompSci you are going to be doing pretty much the same thing say-in and day-out when you get a job.
All I can say is don't lose your appreciation of computers but realize that not all computer related activity is going to be cutting edge and challenging. Keep working and eventually you will get the chance to do what you want.
Study geology or astronomy or (insert interest here) and apply your CS knowledge to something that would be rewarding to you.
CS is an enabler for most of us not an end.
You do not even really need to go back to school for this.
Hans
Two long, one short. I am lost.
Sounds like you need to clear off for a few weeks, take in some sun, drink some wine, eat some good food and don't go anywhere near a keyboard.
It works for me as an mainframe contractor - take some time out, recharge your batteries keep doing it until you're bored. Then come back to the keyboard...
You're right... your job will more than likely be doing what everyone else is doing - implementing the well-known. Whee-hah. Sounds like that is exactly what you want to avoid.
I'm not usually one to advocate this, but go to grad school. You'll hook up with the people who are developing what will be the standard years from now, and are researching the bleeding edge. A Master's degree will be a good start.. if you want to really push the envelope, you gotta go all the way to Ph.D.
Grad school will break you out of the its-been-done rut you seem to be in. The only problem might be the cost (it's never cheap), and your grades. Check with some of your professors, see what it takes to get in. You may need to take another year and polish yourself up.
Failing that, start a pr0n website. Pr0n always seems to be on the cutting edge...
Mr. Ska
Realize that having a CS degree will at least get you in the door at places for more than just programming. I burnt out while I was in school, too, and dropped out in my last year, because I was tired of all the FSCKING programming. I mean, if I wanted to be a programmer, that's all fine and good, but I wanted to be, at the time, a systems analyst, and later changed my mind, and now I'm a systems admin.
Finish it out. I wish I had - but I got into the job market before the dot-com bubble started or burst, so I was lucky enough to not have to depend on my degree to get me just in the door. Now I'm going the night school here at an in-town unoiversity.
You're going to need the degree, coming in with minimal experience. I know, it sucks, but finish it out, then get out of the programming. I still go back to it for fun when I wanna do something, but hell, it's surely not what I want to do for the rest of my life.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
First off, school's a bitch, to put it bluntly. Day in, day out in this small splace with generally small-minded proffessors. I know, I've been through the meat grinder as well.
There are a few things you could do. If you can get certifications, get them and start working as a roving prostitute.. err... consultant. Good money, hotel rooms, and you can screw with peoples' networks at will. Tee hee hee.
You're too far along in school to check out other options, realistically.. but maybe see what other things you have interest in and try to cross-pollinate those interests.
Maybe try becoming a kernel hacker. Either it'll cook you or you'll be helping out Everyone And Their System.
The last option I can think of is PROZAC. You may be sufferring from depression (can't blame you.. like I said, it's a bitch!), so maybe a visit to the shrink would help.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
I'm probably going to get an offtopic for this, but...
Is it just CS and programming that you're finding yourself disillusioned with, or is it kind of everything in life right now? I ask this because it sounds to me like you may be depressed, and attributing the symptoms of that depression to loss of interest in what is currently one of the biggest parts of your life (getting through your CS degree).
If you feel like everything else in your life is just great, then feel free to ignore this post.
On the other hand, if you've been feeling a general sense of purposelessness, lack of motivation about other areas of life, experiencing sleep disturbance (either trouble sleeping or sleeping all the time), or been down about life in general, you might want to consider getting some professional counseling. If you are depressed, it's likely that when you get some help for the depression, you will rediscover your passion for technology.
BTW, IANAP (I am not a Psychiatrist/Psychologist) so standard disclaimers apply.
All of this commentary about more education and other BS. Go out and teach. There are hundreds of school districts across the country that want math teachers (and probably some who want computer teachers). Take the opportunity to travel some.
The pay is not great, and if you decide to stick it out, you'll have to take a fair amount of courses. But if you are only into it for a couple of years, it will be a good break, and possibly very rewarding.
(I almost went this route after deciding that chemistry sucks. Got my MBA instead. While the toys are nice, I would have preferred teaching. But I wasn't going to take the teaching courses.)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Jeez, how negative can you get?
:P
I got my CS degree in may, although I've been working "in the real world" through a co-op since january. And compared to school, I -love- it. Yes, of course the projects aren't going to be as interesting as you want, and there's the beaurocrats, and all the other stuff you mentioned.
But compared to boring classes where a good percentage of the professors are even dumber than PHB's, or at the least, even MORE close-minded, working for a real company, with real goals, and real projects, is amazing.
And no, I don't work for some new-wave dotcom...I work for IBM, one of the oldest dinosaurs out there. So if I can deal with it, and still love it, even after struggling to stay awake through college (and only come out with a 2.7GPA), then others can too.
It ain't easy to kill a geek
My advice. Sit back and ask yourself what's really important to you and what you enjoy. In my case, I liked teaching and programming, but not the rest of the baggage that came with being a faculty member. I got into instructional technology, and it's been a much better fit. I'm not rich, but I don't wake up in the morning dreading work.
Do you like to write? Check out technical journalism or documentation. Would you rather just nail boards together? No shame in being a carpenter.
Perhaps no job sounds like fun. In that case, go get an MBA and head for the money. You can enjoy yourself in your time off.
The decision can be wrenching-after all that work, why would you just throw it away? I get asked that all the time. The short answer is that I'm happy now.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I think a lot of non-adrenaline-based non-social fun has this in common: a challenge, that is not too hard to meet, but that gives a sense of accomplishment afterwards. Ideally it should be silly and/or have no useful impact on the world (like a cross-stitch project or a hike - not like cleaning the basement or a class assignment). Once you remember what fun is like, then you can get back to considering making an impact, because any piece of code that makes an impact requires support and maintenance and stability and responsibility, which, if you're already in a black mood and drowning in tedium, will probably not help matters.
[This advice is unspecific because I discovered that my friend and I do not do any of the same things for fun (I like write-only perl, he likes contemplating algorithms and theory?), so I do not think a list of "stuff I hacked up on a lark" will help jog anyone's memory of what part of CS they used to like.]
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
The big thing that is missing in school is users. It's like saying that being a pilot isn't fun anymore because you have gotten sick of flight simulators. In the real world it isn't clean "just implementing things out of the book" anymore. You have real people counting on you (and often, other real people counting on you to fail). The stakes (and the pressure, and the thrill) go up accordingly.
Yes, batting practice gets dull. So does field stripping a gun. But we do these things, not as an end in themselves, but so we'll be ready when it's for real. That's when the fun starts.
-- MarkusQ
Try it. Games programming will challenge you like you wouldn't believe. You'll sink or you'll swim, but if you last six months then you'll never fear another computer problem, ever.
As an aside, I went to one lecture in the second half of my senior CompSci year; it turned out to be a pre-exam revision lecture for a course I hadn't done. It was OK though, because I fell asleep, having been up all night hacking Netrek.
So, I got a sucky degree (British 2.2) but I learned to work with a real world project, made up of various standards of contributions, I learned a little graphics, a little input, a little maths, and a lot of network. I learned that an RSA authentication scheme is practically unbreakable, but easily duped. It got me a handle that I'm still using ten years later. It got me my first job, as a games programmer, where again I had to learn a little of everything. That got me the experience that I needed to make up for my degree.
So, sure, give it a try. If nothing else, it'll fast track your decision about whether computers are for you.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I felt the same way recently (I graduated in May). The job market is absolutely awful: it's nearly impossible to get an entry-level job at any good technology companies.
However, what gave me some fun was to hack again. I used to do it when I was a teenager. I bought a Dell laptop in my junior year of college, and recently took it apart from top to bottom. There was something like 100 screws in the end (20 of which didn't go back into the machine -- oops), but I was able to rebuild it "from scratch".
That gave me joy. It's an ability that very few people have, and I share with only those people. Friends were like "what are you doing?" when they saw the $3000 laptop in a million pieces, but I was able to get it back together in one night, in the process beefing up the speakers and rerouting some wires to decrease EMI (so I wouldn't hear the touchpad buzzing everytime I touched it).
When you actually enjoy what you're doing, everything else becomes secondary.
You're only one semester from being done, but my best advice is:
Get an internship 3 semesters ago.
I think it's very important to get an idea of what you'll be doing when you get out of school. The type of programming you're doing now isn't necessarily representative of the type of projects and problems you'll find in the real world. Projects especially may be more rewarding when you're not working in groups that only have people at or below your own skill level. I found that the type of work I was doing and the people I was working with during my internships and the amount that I was able to learn "on the job" made me feel like college might just have been a waste of time.
Now I know better. The CS degree gave me the foundation that I use to solve problems and learn new technologies and I've found that people who didn't get a CS degree (or didn't put in several years of work towards one) just weren't able to think about problems on quite the same level.
So my advice to you requires a time machine, but maybe some other folks in their sophomore-junior year can take it and get summer internships or co-ops in the field. It pays better than McDonald's (I know, I did that too) and it's going to be more useful later in your career (unless you're desperately in need of "character building")
- StaticLimit
"but after you've done it for a few years, it's all the same"?
The computer industry makes huge leaps in no time. New tools and new technologies develop constantly. Do you hear that ringing beside you? It's a cell phone with an integrated PDA. See that black rectangle on the desktop? It's a laptop computer with a wireless network connection. These aren't just hardware... they've got software inside and somebody wrote it.
Not impressed by the newest gadgets? Ok, how about instant messaging? Internet telephony? StarCraft and Monsters Inc. for God's sake! Do you think Monsters Inc. could have been made 10 years ago?
And you think it's all the same? Open your eyes, look at all the new stuff you can do, and try to keep up.
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
What a great time!
Now, I'll admit, I didn't get a CS degree. No, Anthropolgy major with CS minor for me, thank you. Of course, I had figured out in my sophmore year that Physics just wasn't going to pan out for me. Maybe all students should change majors after the first year or two. I dunno
Actually, most non-programmers DON'T think it's hot stuff; and most good programmers DO.
You, too, should probably be looking for a new occupation...
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
Don't let either a self-destructively cynical worldview or a fear of success/failure let you drop what you've done so far.
FINISH. No if's / and's / nand's / xor's or 'well...I don't know man...the world is going to shit anyways so I might as well just blah blah blah...'s about it. Tell yourself whatever lies it takes to finish up your degree. Just do it. Trust us on this one!
You never have to touch another computer again for the rest of your life if you don't want to, but a degree - in ANYTHING - shows that, to some substantial degree, you can get your work done and see a difficult job through to the end. THIS is what employers of all kinds really like, and will also give you the self-assurance you will need if you choose to go it on your own and start a business or something.
Bottom line:
Shut the fsck up and do your damn homework.
; )
**>>BELCH
Finish your degree. You are so close. Whether you enjoy it or not, you want that piece of paper for down the road, trust me.
Now.. as for jobs. There certainly are jobs out there for CS grads. They just might not pay someone with a degree and no experience $100,000 a year like they would have a couple years ago.. that's the difference. Things are more realistic now.
You can expect to find a job somewhere, programming, or whatever, and gain some experience. If you are good, in a few years, you will have that big salary.
It's a mistake to think that the university degree is what gives you your big salary... University is just one way to open the door to a particular field for you. (In some fields, it's practically the only way). Your experience and abilities are what really count.
No degree is going to automatically finish your career for you. A degree is a beginning, not an end.
I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing
Try getting involved in some research projects. It probably should not be in the CS department, but rather one of the other departments. Lend you CS expertise to a different kind of undertaking. You will also get a chance to learn about something outside of CS as well as picking up some usefull experience.
If you can't find a school project to work on, make one of your own. Again try to go outside of a pure CS project and delve into something new. Think about ways your CS experience could improve something else and then do it.
For example, when I was in school, I worked on projects for the physics department and the business department. The former needed some automated data collection and the latter needed some statistical modelling. Both provided me a well needed break from the ordinary as well as intoducing me to some real world problems.
Although I have been in the field for about 6 years now (working for a major telecom mfgr), and I still take on "outside" projects from time to time. Be it setting up a webserver for a local charity or building a remote control boat from scratch, both provide me the relief from the monotony of always working on someone else's dream. It is refreshing and rewarding and helps you out back in "the world".
In summary - diversify your skills.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
It took me a long time to learn a simple fact: you can find a subject really interesting and enjoyable but not want to do it as a career. If your decisions are rooted in what is most marketable and some now years-old idea of yor adult identity as an uber-geek, then you better kiss happiness in your working life goodbye because you can't start with pragmatism and try to force your happiness into what's left. You have to start with your happiness and then find a way to make it pragmatic.
No matter what you do there will be drudge work - if you're doing what you really love it won't bother you as much as the drudge of computer science obviously does. When you're excited enough about the outcome, the necessary toil becomes a mere obstacle, something to be overcome.
You are so close to graduating it probably makes little sense to try to change your major, unless you're close to a second in something you really like (you must be getting 4:0s in something to bring that GPA up). Have you considered graduate school? If you find something that suits you better (hint: you enjoy doing it), it doesn't really matter that much what your undergrad degree was. You might even be able to design something that combines the aspects of CS you love with a topic that will sustain you through the unavoidable drudgery component. If you have the time and opportunity, one possibility is to try to design a directed study as an experiment to finish out your CS degree. Combine a programming project with some sort of back-up area of study that you might consider as a career alternative. Maybe being in the drivers seat, coding for something you really have an interest in will reawaken your interest in CS - or else it might provide a bridge to a new focus of study. But take it from someone who's been there - don't ignore your dissatisfaction, because it won't go away and you won't get used to it. These people that say "welcome to the real world" have just settled. That's a choice we all have to make. It's never too late to change, but the sooner you decide to stick to your guns and choose to follow your heart, the sooner you will start working towards being happy instead of being miserable but addicted to an illusion of security.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
Actually find a new field so that there will again be a shortage to programmers and our salaries can go even higher.
I have been in your shoes, and that is how I ended up in programming and systems administration. I started out to be a teacher and after trying it, discovered it wasn't all that I thought. I worked at jobs that I didn't enjoy for 7 years to earn enough $$$s to get a degree in computers (I was introduced to computers and programming while teaching). I should have done it right the first time. While you are young and still in school you can change much easier than going back at nearly 30 and doing it again.
I have no sig, does anyone have one to spare?
is what Univarsity and College are all about. And one of the things you learn, is what you like and don't like.
-... ---
As someone who's worked in IT for 15+ years I can only give you this one piece of advice: It's not your life, it's just a career. Don't let your identity get wrapped up in what you do. Your job is the place where you trade the moments of your life for money. Don't sell yourself cheap. Millions of people work in virtual slavery - don't be one of them. The ratio of income potiential to education for IT work is as high or higher than any other career. Get your degree. Spend a few years making moderate income to get the experience needed to be truly valuable in your field. It probably won't be fun, but view it as an investment in your future. Take that experience and make the most money you can without selling out your morals. Use that money to live your real life, do something meaningful, help people, whatever.
That said, exercise extreme self control in your lifestyle - do NOT allow your lifestyle to rise to your income. Keep that 'starving student' mindset. Treat each job as a 'means to an end'. Always living at the limits of your income makes you a slave - don't fall into the consumerism trap. Start planning now to be the master of your money and not it's servant.
I went to school for 4 years studying architecture. I only realized in the last year that it wasn't for me. That though I often liked doing it, I simply was NOT talented at it. It was humbling to realize that many people that were less intelligent than me in a general sense were much more talented at architecture. And truthfully the idea of a lifetime spent in charette (an extended period of time spent in the studio cramming in all the final presentation work) filled me with dread.
I got so depressed I almost dropped out of school. Came pretty close, but it was my last year so I finished up. Spent two years after that partying, relaxing, getting fed up with pizza delivery and waiting tables, and trying to figure out how I would be happy spending the rest of my life. C'mon, you don't know yourself when you're 17 or 18 and go to college. You don't know what you'll like. Don't think you have to justify the money spent on school by throwing the whole rest of your life away on something you don't like.
You don't have to lose your love of the subject. I'm still transfixed by beautiful buildings and spaces. But you may not be cut out for a life working in what you love. Sucks.... but it's very possible. I decided on programming (always been interested in computers but never really followed up on it) went to CLC for a bit and discovered that I had a strong natural talent for coding. My mind's just good at it. I don't love it per se, but I like being good at what I do.
So..... take some of those silly aptitude tests. Be open to other possibilities. A CS background is very helpful in a ton of areas.
Listen to this guy; he's smart.
I have been involved in recruitment for companies in the past, and I have seen the total disregard for being reasonable often exhibited by managers (even good ones, if they are just being hassled about interviews when they have better things to do -- like their job). Amongst other things, I have spoken to a number of people who had dropped out part-way through a CS degree that was "boring them" or "not teaching them anything". There were some prima donnas who had a rude awakening coming to them, but several of them were obviously quite bright and just genuinely not finding much to keep them interested. None of them ever got an interview, even with my recommendation, because the view of others higher up the tree was that if they were really that bright, they'd have stayed on and finished the course.
As for taking a break, I agree it can be useful, but be careful not to stray too far from the CS path. If you do, it's going to be hard to get back in if you ever want to; knowledge dates faster in our industry than just about everywhere else. Time out of the loop could seriously count against you when you come to applying for jobs.
I know how depressing academic courses can be; I used to love maths, but by the end of three years studying nothing else, I was getting seriously depressed. Now that I've finished my formal studies, and a CS diploma afterwards that gave me much the same feeling at the end, I actually find myself interested in the subjects again. Without the pressure -- "you must do everything on this syllabus, and you haven't got time to do much else" -- it's a different world. I've actually found myself going back to read notes on some of the more interesting courses I did -- things I barely looked at way back then, and never did exams on -- and I do it purely out of interest. Now I'm not studying it just to answer the next problem sheet, it's a totally different feeling. Keep the faith.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I prefer The Matrix... "You're going to have to make a choice Mr Anderson", or any of the other good hacker flicks, or read Weaving The Web by Tim Berners Lee, read about Linus, or Alan Turing, or any of the other thousands of people who have got us where we are today. Or maybe you could just join in hacking some open source, maybe help Mozilla get to that golden 1.0 we are all waiting for, or maybe Open Office is more your thing, or Gnutella, or even sendmail. At the end of it all it's your choice, if you want to be part of the tech community we'd like to have you, if you want to go and paint sunflowers, thats really upto you. All I can say from my expereince is life is in some ways like hacking code, the hardest part is figuring out what you want to do, once you know, you can start looking for ways to accomplish it, then you can go and do it.
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Simple. Switch majors.
About 3 years into my computer science major at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, I realized I just wasn't having any fun any more. The coding was allright, but the ridiculous and unnecessary support courses like chemistry and advanced calculus were killing me. What's more, having spent several summers in IT work, I knew that the job awaiting my graduation wasn't likely to be much better.
So, I talked to some professors and my CSC advisor. They asked what else I enjoyed doing, and after a bit of thought, I related that I'd always really enjoyed reading. "Why not try for an English major?"
A short struggle with the administration later (side note: Cal Poly's policy of "you damn well better know what you want to do with the rest of your life WHEN YOU ARRIVE!" sucks major ass), I was an English major. I show up to my first class, and our first assignment is to read Beroul's version of the Tristan and Isolde legend.
I couldn't believe it. No advanced calculations, no hyper-complex snippets of useless code, no lengthy excersizes to learn environment-specific skills that I'd likely never use. Just curl up with a good book, and enjoy. I was in heaven; it took all of one week to figure if I'd made the wrong choice. Smooth sailing from there.
Now, I know this isn't the choice for everyone. But even those with computers on the brain headed for a career in Silicon Valley might consider my path. Having spoken with many people, both at the college and in the industry, an English major is actually a plus with technical jobs. Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence can learn how to use a program or language on their own in a matter of weeks, really. But the ability to communicate intelligently on paper is a truly unique skill among engineers, and one that will make your application stand out.
Anyway, I'll stop this post here, as I'm about to sit back and relax with several choice selections from Chaucer's earlier works in Middle English. Good luck with your dilemna, and remember: your major doesn't always have to coincide directly with your career to be useful.
Seriously,
IANAP But, you sound like you are suffering from depression. You MUST talk to someone about that. You also have to ask your self WHY you
rate yourself so much on grades? A 3.0 (out of 4.0) undergraduate GPA in CS is pretty damn good. Also, grades in CS don't have anything to do with how good a developer you can be. (Oh, yeah, all those off by one errors? You have those because as a senior in CS you are a stone cold newby at programming. You'll get past those pretty soon.)
On the other hand, I understand what you are saying. I started college as a history major (planning to be a Lawyer) that got boring, so I changed to English (creative writing), and then to CS.... Well written code is a lot like well written poetry. Doing what you like is the most important thing.
On the third hand, you might just not be cut out
for a life as a developer. A LOT of talented people went into CS in the late '60s, the early '80s, and the late '90s because that was where
they could make the most money. Then they found
out that developing code was like doing home work
all day long and they hated it. Most of those people stay in the field for less than 5 years
and nobody misses them. And, they are a lot happier doing whatever it is they wind up doing.
So, First, talk to a shrink. Get some perspective.
Then think about where you are headed.
Stonewolf
P.S.
My salary history looks like a saw tooth wave. It goes up for about 10 years, then goes backwards in a short sharp hop, and repeat. Right now my income has dropped to zero. Looks like I have a good chance of geting up to 50% of what I was making last month.
I wasn't referring to a personal friend. The people in question were prospective employees -- students and recent grads/early finishers -- I had met while attending a recruitment event on behalf of my employer. One was so obviously talented that I personally recommended that he be interviewed, in spite of not finishing his course. He wasn't.
Management ruled him out immediately on the basis of the lack of degree. There were plenty of other candidates who had them, and they weren't about to stretch scarce interview resources to check out someone who didn't. There was no "not putting themselves on the line" about it; the lack of degree stopped them getting further in the recruitment process, end of story.
Some employers will see past the lack of paperwork, sure. You were lucky enough to find one. My original point was simply that for many employers, even otherwise good ones, you will be File 13'd before they even read the rest of your CV if you don't have a university degree.
In that light, it would be foolish for most people to give up a course partway through the final year. You'd have to really be suffering, and it sounds as though the original poster was just feeling a bit tired out, which happens to many good people as they go through uni studying the same subject for several years. But for many people, this feeling passes, often as soon as you've finished your course and the pressure lifts.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.